Re: kroupware

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Re: kroupware
by Joerg Gastner on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @10:08

I don't see why the letter K should be avoided. Many programs for KDE start with a K and many programs for Gnome start with a G. Users can easily identify the origin of a program along these lines.

I'd like to see a word that is present in many languages, has the same or an equal meaning in those languages and expresses a concept related to the program. Since most european languages share a lot of latinisms, I think the most obvious denominator should be a word derived from latin.

Which brings me to my proposal. How about "Koalition"? It seems that the meaning is about equal in german, english, french, spanish and a few other languages. The meaning, according to my ethymological dictionary, coming from late-latin (coalitus), new-english (coalition) and french (coalition), is "union, unification" and goes back to latin (coalescere, coalitum) where it meant "to unite, to grow together". While it used to be a chemical terminus (< 18th century), it was soon adopted in international relations (mostly a coalition _against_ somebody or something). In modern german it means "alliance within a government" (hope I translated that one about right).

Since the purpose of a groupware is to work together, the meaning (grow together) is not far from the purpose. It is some sort of coalition against the established closed source groupware solutions, so in this respect it is equally descriptive. And since it is contract work for the government the modern meaning is also there.

Just my 2 as

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Re: kroupware
by Stof on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @12:30

> and many programs for Gnome start with a G.

It was true for GNOME 1, but if you look at GNOME 2 you'll see huge changes. "gedit", "GNOME Character Map", "GWhatever": all gone and replaced by "Text Editor", "Character Map", etc.

Inside the KDE community, KNames are acceptable, but if you look around, you'll see Mac and Win people complaining all the time about obscure and non-descriptive K/G-names.

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Re: kroupware
by Anonymous on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @14:36

> all gone and replaced by "Text Editor", "Character Map", etc.

You're talking about how they appear in the menu/panel. The name of the executable and so on of course didn't change. KDE3 can display the generic name too.

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Re: kroupware
by Jeff on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @17:22

True.... exactly! The user should get an informative and pleasing name, and the packages could be whatever. The only problem with that is... should the user know the package name too? (For reasons like: support calls, download updates, etc.) If so, then does it help much? I'm not sure, but I think so.

But, I still think it is worthwhile to please the user a little better than we're doing now. Konqueror or Kontour can come across as a miss-spelling and an annoyance to english-speaking purists. K-mail & K-word, though, may not be as bad because its obviously branding like MS Word, or whatever.

So... my thought was totally in agreement with yours. If the K-menu had a hook to the language-preferences, such that what you see is the "whatever program name" for your language it would be a lot easier to get names that please people. But the package name is what it is: K-mail, or Konqueror or whatever.

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Re: kroupware
by ac on Wednesday 25/Sep/2002, @10:41

Stof, you're an idiot and a troll who never dies. GNOME2 stole this tactic from KDE. KDE has been displaying the generic name in the menu *forever*. Matthias Ettrich was the first to suggest this from the very beginning.

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Re: kroupware
by Evan "JabberWokky" E. on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @12:35

Here's a minor rant that I just posted to Slashdot. I don't really have incredibly strong opinions on this, as I've written an application named Kodan (but I chose the names Contact and Chatter for two new ones I'm working on).

---
(Talking about Foresight as a name)

Personally, I like it better than Hola, Komoused, and other proposed names. Especially the latter, which has a forced 'K'. KMail, kvim, kpaint, etc, I can see having the K-prefix, as these are KDE GUIzed versions of standard applications (kmail vs. the *nix standard mail, kvim vs. vim, and kpaint vs. xpaint). Konqueror is an extension of the Navigator and Explorer naming theme, and Konsole was cute when it came out with a K. Since then, it's gotten quite old, and although some new applications are coming out with a K name (Kopete), for awhile now many major and/or core application have dropped the K prefix (Noatun, Brahams, Cervisia, PixiePlus, Quanta). The prefixing on a normal word still makes sense to me to generate a recognizable namespace - KWord, KSpread, KChart, KFormula, KThesarus, KDevelop - but the cutsie 'use a K instead of a different letter' is, imo, dumb.
---

Again, it's my opinion, but not a very strong one, and has shifted in the past. I'm of the opinion that kpaint should show up in the KDE menu as just Paint, and kmail should should up as Mail. I.E., the naming prefix is for the binary application file, and the name of the application presented to the user should be simply functional.

--
Evan

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Re: kroupware
by Joerg Gastner on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @14:12

I think you are right about the "cute" part. And you are certainly right about many new applications having dropped the K prefix. On the other hand this project is contract work for the BSI which is part of the german government. And in german there are lots of words starting with K. Most of these (the latinisms) are written with a C in french, english and spanish. You mentioned the name "Konsole" being cute when it came out, but that is the german spelling for it. Do I find "Console" cute just because that's the proper spelling in english and french? Nope. English is actually the lingua franca of information technologies. No argueing about that. But a work for the german government doesn't necessarily have to be named in english, french, spanish or whatever-language-you-can-think-of.

What about these words (all correctly spelled according to my german dictionary). Do they look cute, just because they are not english?

Kabarett, Kadenz, Kakao, Kalender, Kamel, Kamera, Kampagne, Kanal, Kantor, Karbon, Karneval, Katalog, Kiosk, Klasse, Knoten, Kobalt, Kodex, Kognition, Koinzidenz, Kollegium, Kommunikation, Kommunion, Kompass, Komponist, Konferenz, Konjunktion, Konkordanz, Konspiration, Kontakt, Kontext, Kontrast, Konversation, Konzept, Kooperation, Korrespondenz, Kybernetik.

You can probably guess the meaning of quite a few of these words. Furthermore, the over 100 million german native speakers take these words as perfectly natural. To them, they are not cute, they are normal.

English is the de facto language of computing. Agreed. But there are other languages on this planet. And I can not see why an application that is being payed for by german tax payers shouldn't start with the (perfectly normal) letter K.

Just my opinion.

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Re: kroupware
by Evan "JabberWokky" E. on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @14:25

I was unaware that "Kroupware" is a german word. I apologize.

(I did know that Konsole is german, and I simply didn't get into it on Slashdot, where a favored troll technique is to bash countries.)

--
Evan

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Re: kroupware
by Joerg Gastner on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @14:46

No need to apologize. Kroupware is not a german word. Quite on the contrary, it is a "cute" use of the letter "K" in an english word. I agree with you on the issue of "Kroupware" being "cute" (Actually I think it is worse).

My comment was in reply to to your Slashdot rant which began with the words "(Talking about Foresight as a name)"

"Foresight" is not a german word. :)

Joerg

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Re: kroupware
by Evan "JabberWokky" E. on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @15:04

As I said, intentionally incorrect words are the only thing that sometimes irk me. K- as a prefix is fine (It's functionally similar to MS, Open Office or Toyota as a prefix, a la MS Word, Open Office Writer, or Toyota Camry). It simply indicates the class of application (it's a GUI app that uses KDE libraries). K as an incidental letter (a la Konsole, Kicker) or part of an acronym (KUPS, KIM) are also fine. And, as I say earlier, I think that applications that fit into the first category (using K to indicate their class), should be listed on the Kicker menu without the K, as just Mail, Paint and Thesaurus, just as the common way to refer to my other examples drops the prefix (Word, Writer, Camry).

--
Evan

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Re: kroupware
by Joerg Gastner on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @15:30

You put it into the right words. I agree with you. Especially with the Mail, Paint and Thesaurus stuff that should be showing up in Kicker/Kmenu in a way that users can relate to.

But keep in mind that something that seems intentionally incorrect at first glance might come from a a language where it makes perfect sense.

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Include specific names
by Andrea on Thursday 26/Sep/2002, @06:01

I'm trying to push the adoption of Linux desktops, and I find that there are some mistakes:
- You can't put something like "Browser" to identify Konqueror, because it brokes the conection with the help manuals and with the sites.
I had a personal experience with this: I accidentally shut down Kicker. But this doesn't have a visible name, and I tried to find "Panel", and I couldn't. After some searching, I could figure that this was the app called Kicker on other parts, and I executed it.
So, I sugest don't give up individual and unique names, you can use "Konqueror browser", "Kicker app panel", or putting the unique name somewhere visible.
Now, the "advance" user, this who is not afraid of configuring something new or learn a new app, can install him/herself a distribution. But then there are some problems: half-baked simplified interfases made their path from absolute beginner to "intermediate" user hard.
That's only to encourage the very good work that you are doing. I really miss Konqui when I'm on Win, there nothing like this.

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Re: Include specific names
by Sad Eagle on Monday 30/Sep/2002, @06:26

This is the default since KDE3.0 -- i.e. you see KMail (Mail Client), Kate(Text Editor) in the menues.

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Re: kroupware
by shreya Guha on Tuesday 13/May/2003, @04:40

Hey, i am new to this site. I am actually looking for a name for a garment firm starting with K or C(can be converted to K. It would be kind if u can help me in any way. Names could mean anything, upto the respondents discretion.

Pls do reply asap.
Thanking you,
Shreya Guha.

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Re: kroupware
by Jos on Tuesday 24/Sep/2002, @12:51

And then we also have a name for version 2:

Koalescence

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