KDE e.V. on the KDE League

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KDE e.V. on the KDE League

KDE Public Relations and Marketing

Posted by Matthias Kalle Dalheimer on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @12:24
from the irresponsible-journalists dept.
There have been rumours recently about the financial situation of the KDE League, as well as criticism of its apparent inactivity. With KDE e.V., the KDE developers' organisational body which controls the KDE League, being recently resurrected, we will now be able to blow new life into the KDE League. [Ed: Matthias Kalle Dalheimer was recently elected a KDE e.V. board member and the KDE e.V. President.]

There has recently been gossip about the working and financial situation of the KDE League. "News" sites with questionable reputation have run stories about financial irregularities in the KDE League that entirely lack in foundation. This journalistically irresponsible behavior is endangering the reputation of both the KDE League as well as KDE e.V. and the KDE project as a whole.

The Board of KDE e.V. has at this point and with the current knowledge absolutely no reason to believe that there are any irregularities in the bookkeeping of the KDE League. The Board of KDE e.V. does not believe it is productive to disclose the books of the KDE League to the general public, but is of course willing to authorize the KDE League to disclose the books to elected KDE e.V. members (see below).

The Board of KDE e.V. acknowledges that the KDE League has been mostly dysfunctional the last few months. This is partly due to lack of enthusiasm on the part of the KDE League members, partly due to KDE e.V. having been dysfunctional itself (since KDE e.V. has a huge influence in the KDE League, it can, willingly or non-willingly, block the work of the KDE League).

The members of KDE e.V. are currently determining who will represent them on the Board of the KDE League so that a budget for the KDE League can be passed and the KDE League can take up its work again.

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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whomever posted them.
( Reply )

Over 40 comments listed. Printing out index only.

Transparency
by Anonymous on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @13:23

Maybe it's not productive but it helps people trusting. Could it be counterproductive to disclose such books ?

[ Reply To This | View ]

Re: Transparency by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:42
Re: Transparency by Eric Laffoon on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:43
Re: Transparency by saildrive on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @17:40

Contributions.
by Ben Rosenberg on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @13:47

Why is that people who haven't given any money to the KDE League want to know all about it's books? Just because KDE is open source doesn't mean they have to report their finances to the planet. Would you ask SuSE or Ximian to disclose their finances? They are not public firms...they answer to those who have put money up. If you haven't then I would suggest minding your business.

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kde contributors have a right to be by interested on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @13:57

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:43

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:29

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by anonymous on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @18:50

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by Eva Brucherseifer on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @08:38

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by anonymous on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @09:54

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by Eva Brucherseifer on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @10:52

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by Eva Brucherseifer on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @08:25

Re: kde contributors have a right to be by kidcat on Monday 21/Oct/2002, @15:02

Re: Contributions. by Anonymous on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @13:59

Re: Contributions. by coolo on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @14:25

Re: Contributions. by David on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:00

Re: Contributions. by kidcat on Monday 21/Oct/2002, @15:11

!Required, but transparency should be the goal...
by Adam Treat on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @14:01

I do not subscribe to the idea that the KDE League has done anything wrong (except miss a routine filing date), but I still think transparency is the answer here.

All of this is a big waist of time that could be easily solved if the league would agree to make it's financial situation more transparent and perhaps explicitly detail the ways in which the league has/will fullfill its charter.

[ Reply To This | View ]

illegal
by anon on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @14:03

The whole *point* of the "Linux and Main" article is that is doesn't matter whether you want to open the financial records, or not.

You have to, by law.

One of the joys of being a non-profit organization.

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not illegal by KDozer on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @14:21

Re: not illegal by Ert on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:11

That'd make a big change to their bylaws... by Datschge on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:26
Re: not illegal by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:45

Re: not illegal by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:05

Well... by Datschge on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:12
Re: illegal by Disinterested Observer on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @14:07

Exactly, transparency!
by Otter on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @14:17

I'm a minor KDE contributor. Here's my impression of the situation, which roughly agrees with that of everyone else I've discussed this with:

* The KDE League is raising money, supposedly in the tens of thousands of dollars, by trading on KDE's name.

* The KDE League has not visibly accomplished anything besides a prominent contribution to the Microsoft settlement debate. Its web site is stagnant and Kalle admits it's done little recently. That doesn't mean it hasn't done anything but....

* ...whenever any question is raised, Andreas Pour responds by saying that it's all a secret and he can't tell us about all the good things that are being done. Or anything else.

Something has to give. Either it needs to be clear to the KDE community that the League is doing something useful, or the people in charge need to level about what's going on or they better get used to hearing complaints.

My guess is that after the Linux gold rush dried up, the League members felt they had better things to do than give Andreas piles of money, Granroth and Schlager got bored and went off to do something else and Andreas was left with a domain name and not much to do. If that's the case -- tell us! Whatever happened -- tell us!

I think we all trust Kalle and I'm glad to see he's admitting there's a problem and trying to whip things into shape. Dennis Powell is an idiot who uses computer journalism as a club to manage his grudges, but if things start to improve from here, credit him for poking the anthill.

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Re: Exactly, transparency! by Aaron J. Seigo on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:37

Re: Exactly, transparency! by Otter on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @20:50

Re: Exactly, transparency! by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:48

Re: Exactly, transparency! by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:03

Re: Exactly, transparency! by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:08

Re: Exactly, transparency! by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:51

What Otter said.
by CameraShy on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:11

I agree completely with Otter. I am also a minor KDE contributor (maybe 2500 lines of code in a KDE app) and my only feelings are that anything KDE does should be completely transparent. I am sure Andreas is a good man but he has 36 thousand reasons to maintain the status quo. In related news, I thought all bitching by Tink et al about RH's Bluecurve was ridiculous. KDE as a project seems to lack confidence in it's own offering. We also need to cooperate more with gnomers.

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Re: What Otter said. by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:17
Re: What Otter said. by Aaron J. Seigo on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:39
Re: What Otter said. by Otter on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:49
Re: What Otter said. by SadEagle on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @16:07

Re: What Otter said. by Anonymous on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @00:21

Re: What Otter said. by Nick B on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @05:20

Re: What Otter said. by fault on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @07:42

Re: What Otter said. by Sad Eagle on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @09:19

Re: What Otter said. by fault on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @10:24

Re: What Otter said. by Sad Eagle on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @10:56

For those not following..
by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:32

This all started with dishonest allegations that there was inpropriety going on behind the scenes of KDE League. Lie after lie have been exposed in the articles of dep, but all of a sudden people think he is a martyr and are taking the chance to attack KDE.

This is very sad. Very very sad indeed. Who knew there were so many jackals out there.

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Re: For those not following.. by thierry on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @11:17

League fails to market...itself
by steve on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:38

Its ironic that the KDE League has failed to present
a good public image of itself by:

- not disclosing information about its inner workings,
e.g. finances

- not publicizing any of its accomplishments

Now the latest irony - criticism of the league,
enabled by the facts above, actually does PR damage
to KDE itself.

It's an unfortunate set of circumstances,
to say the least. I hope credibility can be
re-established, both inside and outside the
community, and that the League will be able to
do more _visible_ good for the KDE project in
the future.

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"At this point and with the current knowledge..."
by Charles Kerr on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @15:51

> The Board of KDE e.V. has at this point and with
> the current knowledge absolutely no reason to believe
> that there are any irregularities in the bookkeeping
> of the KDE League.

Interesting phrasing. Does this mean that the Board of KDE e.V.
has gone over the KDE League's financials and sees nothing wrong,
or that the board hasn't seen the League's financials yet?

cheers,
Charles

[Disclosure: I'm a Gnome programmer who likes both Gnome and KDE.
No disrespect to KDE or KDE programmers is intended in this message.]

[ Reply To This | View ]

Re: "At this point and with the current knowledge..." by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @16:09

Re: "At this point and with the current knowledge. by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @16:59

Re: "At this point and with the current knowledge. by KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:02

Re: "At this point and with the current knowledge. by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:31

What Did the League Do?
by Les Brunswick on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @17:18

The heck with the money. I wish dre would just tell us what the KDE League has been doing the past two years to promote KDE. Or if it hasn't been doing anything, would he just tell us why. I think a good explanation would satisfy most of the people who are complaining. As long as he won't talk about that, it doesn't matter what he says on other topics like not-for-profit status, many people are going to be unhappy. But if he explained what the KDE League has been doing, that would settle for most people.

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The Bottom Line
by Another KDE User on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @18:02

First and foremost,

I love KDE. It's a wonderful desktop, and genuinely filled with wonderful people.

I also have wanted to contribute (financially) to KDE since I'm not a programmer and can't really contribute code-wise.

Now,

Why haven't I?

Contribute to the KDE League? Hell no. Since its inception, I have never been educated on (a) what it does, (b) what it's purpose is, (c) what its plans are, and more importantly (d) what is has *done*.

Contribute to KDE e.V.? HOW? And I pose the same questions for KDE e.V. as I do for the KDE League (above).

I work hard for my money, and am fairly philanthropic when I can be. The American Red Cross, The American Cancer Society, The Dianne Fossey Foundation, the Democratic National Committee, and National Public Radio all get the majority of my donations each year.

For open source, I have (and do) contribute substantially to the Perl Foundation, dyndns.org, and to FreeBSD.

But why haven't I written one check to the KDE League or KDE e.V.? Because, unlike all the other organizations that I've mentioned above, neither of the two satisfies any of my criteria.

I'm not in the habit of willfully throwing my money away, and it doesn't matter is an organization is 501(c)(3) or not.

In my eyes, the KDE League is nothing more than a clique of KDE Developers who formed a group to raise money for themselves. Open your god-damned books if you want my money, damnit. I don't want to know a list of contributors, but an un-audited financial statement, done in accordance GAAP will more than suffice. I just want to make sure I'm not donating $500 to an organization that spends 80% of its revenue on the salaries for the freakin' board.

--AKU

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Re: The Bottom Line by fault on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @20:03
Good Point! by Anonymous on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @00:28
Re: The Bottom Line by Philippe Fremy on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @01:06
Re: The Bottom Line by Inorog on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @04:27

Re: The Bottom Line by anon on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @09:27

What could the League do?
by Janne on Tuesday 08/Oct/2002, @23:44

There has been alot of talkas about what the League does and what it could do. I agree that we need more information regarding it's activities and plans for the future.

I think that besides promoting KDE in trade-shows and the like, couldn't the League actually sponsor KDE-developers financially? Take for example Mosfet. He had to cut down his work on Linux because he needs a job that pays his bills. What if League sponsored him (and other developers) so that he could work on KDE full-time?

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Re: What could the League do? by Anonymous on Thursday 10/Oct/2002, @00:02

Professor
by Erik K. Pedersen on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @00:51

Well if the kde league was supposed to get good press for kde, and only succeeded in getting bad press for itself, it certainly has been a failure. The PR situation for KDE is rather disastrous at the moment. apps.kde.org has been down for a long time. linuxtoday no longer reports kde apps, only gnome apps.
KDE for all practical purposes just lost one distribution, Redhat. They cannot come out and say outright that they are dropping kde because they have too many customers using it, but the purpose is completely clear, witness that the only KDE-developer they had left in protest.

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Re: Professor by Fabrice Colin on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @03:06

What about broken laws?
by Heiko Stoermer on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @03:22

These "sites with questionable reputation" have made the following points, that are not being addressed by the above statement:

- the KDE League is legally non-existent because it has missed to pay some fee

- the KDE League as a non-profit organziation seems to be obliged by law to open their books to ANYONE who wants to have insight. (additionally, there seems to be no legal difference between "non-profit" or "not-for-profit"!)

Could anyone with credibility please make a final statement on that?

At last, my personal question:
During the period of "dysfunctionality", has any of the League's money been spent?

Best regards,
Heiko

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Re: What about broken laws? by Scott Wheeler on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @08:23
Re: What about broken laws? by James Richard Tyrer on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @20:53
Re: What about broken laws? by Rob Cradle on Friday 07/Mar/2003, @05:43

take the fight to the enemy
by bryan on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @09:03

It's true what Erik K. Pedersen says. To the outside world it looks like things are coming appart here, Redhat is following the same old trick of software firms .... Embrace, extend, extinguish in order to make crappy Gnome the dominant desktop.

One thing that I've got to say is that linuxandmain.com is a pile of shit ....
they hardly scratch themselves to put up a story unless it's one that's badmouthing KDE.

It's funny the way people react though, everyone would prefer to sulk and bitch
rather than take the initiative ... Why don't we create Redhat rpms that work
the way KDE is supposed to ! Give Redhat the 2 fingered salute that the wholeheartedly deserve and stop KDE from being a second class citizen !!!!!

Kindest Regards

Bryan

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Overblown
by David Johnson on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @10:29

This whole controversy du'jour is getting out of control. People are trying to build ski-slopes on molehills. Fact: KDE League appears to be dysfunctional. So what? They don't have any of your or my money. Fact: KDE League was late in one filing. So what? I was one day late with my electric bill yesterday.

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Re: Overblown by chris felton on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @21:44

Re: Overblown by ac on Wednesday 09/Oct/2002, @22:21

Re: Overblown by chris felton on Thursday 10/Oct/2002, @16:11
Re: Overblown by fault on Thursday 10/Oct/2002, @18:10

This story has still not been cleared up.
by Sir Bard on Thursday 10/Oct/2002, @10:07

The KDE League bylaws http://www.kdeleague.org/bylaws.php clearly state that it is a nonprofit, and the article makes the case that it is not a 501(c)(3) organization. Is it, then, a 501(c)(6) organization (a business league)?

If so, there are, indeed, public disclosure requirements imposed by the IRS. See http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96103,00.html and read the last paragraph. Yes, this page applies to all nonprofits, including business leagues, as http://www.irs.gov/charities/business/index.html makes clear. If, in fact, the KDE League is a "business league", Dennis Powell (no matter how much of a jerk you or I might think he is, and believe me, I'm not a fan) was within his legal rights to ask for disclosures. He is not be entitled to the full books, but he is entitled to "the last three annual information returns".

If the KDE league is not a 501(c)(6) either, then I don't see how it can be a legal nonprofit at all, in which case they owe Delaware filing fees that haven't been paid.

You can't just say that you're an ordinary corporation that doesn't expect to make money. With such a status you have to pay filing fees to the state of Delaware, and Delaware is now saying that the league doesn't owe them. So which is it? Either KDE League has to pay Delaware or they have to give Dennis Powell their annual information report. One or the other.

If I'm wrong, then it must be the case that the KDE League has some alternate legal status that I'm not familiar with. If so, what is it?

I'm not saying this to attack KDE. KDE and the KDE League are distinct entities, and I'm not seeing any evidence that the KDE League is serving the interests of KDE's developers or users. Any responses should leave the personality or beliefs of Dennis Powell out, as they are irrelevant.

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cleared by anonymous on Thursday 10/Oct/2002, @16:25

Re: cleared by Anonymous on Tuesday 15/Oct/2002, @05:24

The Fine Print: The previous comments are owned by whomever posted them.
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