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Re: Button order
by Roberto Alsina on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @08:07
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So, basically, it is right for some 4% of possible users, and wrong for about 92% of them.
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Re: Button order
by pseuonymous coward on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @08:12
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> So, basically, it is right for some 4% of possible users, and wrong for about
> 92% of them.
Wrong. The button order can be right, or it can be wrong; it can't
be right for some users, and wrong for others.
Basically, Apple put a lot of research into determining the correct
order for buttons in a dialog. MS made the order different in Windows
in order to avoid being sued by Apple, even though their button order
was _wrong_ and decreased usability. KDE and Gnome1 copied MSW.
For Gnome2, the Gnome developers finally got around to reading some
literature on HCI, and fixed their button order. The KDE developers
should do the same.
This isn't about Gnome vs. KDE -- this is about good UI design vs
bad UI design.
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Re: Button order
by Roberto Alsina on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @08:18
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> Wrong. The button order can be right, or it can be wrong; it can't
> be right for some users, and wrong for others.
Wrong, of course it can.
For example, if you are using a right-to-left locale, all of Apple's reasons for their button ordering work the other way.
So, what you may be trying to say is that they can not be right or wrong FOR THE REASON I GAVE. Which is an entirely different thing.
But since I replied to a post saying that if you came from a mac there was no "pressing wrong button problem", I only stated the obvious, that for about 23 times more people, THERE IS a "pressing the wrong button problem".
As for MS changing the button order to avoid a lawsuit... well, I find it quite farfetched. Do you have a reference?
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Re: Button order
by User of both KDE & Gnome on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @08:46
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A lot of this strikes me as rather trivial. It could be argued that it is good to have the buttons appear in different locations to prevent against habituation - so when a "You have unsaved data. Do you want to save it?" dialog box appears, the user doesn't automatically click on the "discard" or "no" or whatever button with no further thought and realise only a moment later that they have lost their data. Let's face it, losing data is a bit more of a hinderance to productivity than having to find the right button, and users will *always* make mistakes.
With the buttons in different places, users of both KDE and Gnome apps will have to look for the correct button, reducing the chance of not saving their data before quitting an application.
Having said all that, I think consistency between Gnome and KDE is a good thing, just so that both DE's get a fair chance when common inconsistencies in proprietary systems are cheerfully ignored. Remember that in hci (or chi!), most findings are counter-intuitive.
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Re: Button order
by Navindra Umanee on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @10:19
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[quote]
A lot of this strikes me as rather trivial. It could be argued that it is good to have the buttons appear in different locations to prevent against habituation
[/quote]
*lol*, right on!
Another cool thing would be to maintain consistent button order but switch them around from time to time -- just for the heck of training new brain pathways.
Then of course, we could have *random* button orders for the truly adventurous.
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Re: Button order
by ne... on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @17:01
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Sounds like whats happens when you play with WinZip...
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Re: Button order
by Hongli Lai on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @09:19
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<I>"For example, if you are using a right-to-left locale, all of Apple's reasons for their button ordering work the other way."</I>
GTK+ 2.0 has this nice little feature of swapping the horizontal layout of all widgets for right-to-left locales.
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Re: Button order
by fault on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @11:24
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> GTK+ 2.0 has this nice little feature of swapping the horizontal layout of all widgets for right-to-left locales.
As do Qt and KDE (try kwrite --reverse, for example).
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Re: Button order
by Iuri Fiedoruk on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @11:35
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I didn't new that, kwrite looks very strange, and strangely cool, this way :)
Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Button order
by Jay H. on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @12:08
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Wow, that looks so strange. If you'll excuse me, I have some new brain pathways to train now...
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Re: Button order
by Hongli Lai on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @12:18
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But is it automatic? Does the layout of all QT/KDE apps automatically get reversed when run under a certain locale?
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Re: Button order
by SadEagle on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @12:21
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Basically, yes, depepndent on the currently selected language -- in the language packs in kde-i18n, one of the things the translators specify is whether to use RTL or LTR ordering.
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Re: Button order
by Aaron J. Seigo on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @12:24
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it would be rather useless if it didn't, hm?
hehe.. "let's put in this massive BiDi framework, but the not let it be turned on desktop-wide as a policy decision".. there is a method call that tells the program wether it is in LTR or RTL mode, and all the widgets/layouts listen to this.
even things like the window decorations get flipped... the keramik window deco actually flips the pixmaps so things look proper... it's really quite nice and been available for a while.
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Re: Button order
by Trevor on Wednesday 05/Feb/2003, @07:43
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In that case you've answered the question about which button order is best. You should use the Gnome/Mac order since that will be the most natural for both LTR and RTL locations.
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Re: Button order
by Roberto Alsina on Wednesday 05/Feb/2003, @11:01
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Uh, no. That is one factor. Another factor is what is not surprising the user.
Since KDE has used the current button order for about 4 years, and everyone that uses Windows has used that order for 9 years, and both together are:
100% of current KDE users
95% of possible future KDE users
it only makes sense that in order to change the button ordering, the change would have to provide a measurable improvement in the user experience that is larger than the annoyance it would produce.
Since no such measurings seem to be available, I see no reason to mess with status quo.
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Re: Button order
by Trevor on Wednesday 05/Feb/2003, @12:50
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But, using this logic, you should also stick with the double click system that Windows uses.
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Re: Button order
by ac on Wednesday 05/Feb/2003, @15:20
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Windows has both single and double click in the same interface. An inconsistency. KDE can improve that by removing one of the options (double click). There already is consistency with button ordering and the benefits of switching are slim to none, while introducing an 'getting used to period' of a number of weeks.
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Re: Button order
by Anonymous Coward on Thursday 06/Feb/2003, @14:18
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KDE has removed nothing. Using double clicks for icons is still an option within KDE and has been for a long time. There's probably no reason why button order couldn't be the same.
Only one thing, though... Why is it the only time the freedesktop.org project gets any work done on it, is when both groups are shamed by some event. This last one was almost certainly because of the RedHat 8.0 Bluecurve controversy. Is everyone so isolated in their own little Desktop Environment world that they are oblivious to everyone else?
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Re: Button order
by Roberto Alsina on Thursday 06/Feb/2003, @05:38
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Of course not, because I think single-click does provide a measurable improvement.
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Re: Button order
by ac on Wednesday 05/Feb/2003, @11:06
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>You should use the Gnome/Mac order since that will be the most natural for both LTR and RTL locations.
No, that's according to some hand waving by Mac lovers. Changing button order would increase productivity by a factor of zero and would just annoy people for a time. I think people say it's better because when they finally get used to it, they are happy.
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Re: Button order
by Rithvik on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @23:51
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The button order probably doesn't have anything to do with locale (if that means language settings, BiDi or not). It has to do with whether the user is left handed or right handed. As a right-handed user, I tend to quickly fill up an options/prefs dialog and click OK. This means pulling the mouse downwards towards me. It tends to send the cursor towards bottom right, which is the right place for the OK button for right-handed users. For potentially dangerous options, it should be otherwise. This is totally the other way round for left-handed users.
--
Just my opinion
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Re: Button order
by Shift on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @09:24
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KDE team doesn't read so much litterature. They perhaps just listen to their users ?
I think it is much better than reading thousands of bok explaining that your eyes is more quick to look on top than on bottom, that the mouse is better on the bottom right, that moving mouse from left to right is more easy than bottom to top,...
I use KDE and use Gnome2 too (I have two machine with last versions of them in each one) and I am always confused by the order of the Gnome buttons :( Probably because I read text from left to right and so the left button is the first I read. So for me it is much better to put "OK" on the left.
If KDE adopt Gnome order I hope there will be a way to put them back in the Ok-Cancel order :)
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Re: Button order
by Hongli Lai on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @09:55
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Just listening to the user is not the answer either. You should do *both*: listen to the user *and* read litterature.
Reasons to read litterature too:
1) The user doesn't always know what he wants.
2) What the user *thinks* he want may not be what he really wants or the perfect solution. Humans are not aware of everything.
3) There are some things that can be done better, but the user is not (always) aware of them.
And the GNOME button layout is a bit confusing the first few weeks. But having used it for a while now, it really isn't that horrible.
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Re: Button order
by Aaron J. Seigo on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @11:29
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and so those few weeks of annoyance resulted in having an interface decision that is livable? i'd rather avoid those few weeks if it isn't going to give me any real benefits. changes that don't provide real and noticeable improvement in usability but come at great retraining costs are hardly worth it, IMHO.
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Re: Button order
by oGALAXYo on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @14:59
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And you think those who decide what the user wants are right yes ? They could be as wrong as you - by saying the stuff in point 2)
No offense but 'Never change a running System' and KDE run's perfectly so far the wide acceptance of users aknowledge this.
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Re: Button order
by Hongli Lai on Wednesday 05/Feb/2003, @03:06
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They are not always right but neither are the users. For that reason, you should listen to users AND read litterature, make an idea and discuss it with others. ONLY listening to users or ONLY reading litterature are both bad.
Surely you already realize this, right?
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Re: Button order
by alex on Monday 10/Feb/2003, @04:58
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sure. i at least certainly do, but the button ordering example is a
terrible one. using gnome2 default settings slowed me down, therefore
i switched back to kde. you think windows users are likely to go along
with it?, no way.
kde is about pleasing users _and_ showing them the right direction,
but going against the grain _isn't_ always the right thing and mac os
may has gotten some things right but this is just wrong.
the okay button is the most commonly used button of the two and the
mouse user in general centers on the middle of the dialog therefore
swapping the button positions will increase mouse movement and
make it thus very likely that the user will have much further to move.
there are far better ways of solving the rtl problem than making
everyone else suffer for it.
Alex
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Re: Button order
by Alain on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @10:13
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> Probably because I read text from left to right and so the left button is the first I read. So for me it is much better to put "OK" on the left.
Yes, all is said here, it is the natural answer, so it is the good choice... excepted in some countries where people read from right to left......
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Re: Button order
by antiphon on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @18:30
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Besides my other comments to the original parent of this thread, I think it is potentially dangerous to put the OK button on the default spot since doing so leads to accidental pressing of it. For users who do not know how to undo changes to a document, for example, this can cause great unintended harm.
Such individuals would be more likely to erase documents, etc.
Remove last year to reply...
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Re: Button order
by JoaCHIP on Friday 24/Oct/2003, @06:53
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I've even heard the argument, that the eye will travel from the top-left to the bottom-right (in left2right reading countries) and mainly focus at the corners, and that you should therefor place the most frequently used button in the bottom right corner.
I have to disagree to this point, because once i see a row of buttons, i read this like text - that is left to right. This tendency totally overrules the "bottom right corner"-effect unless you've gotten used to having the unusual Cancel-OK order.
This is why i firmly believe that even people who are not used to computers at all, will look at the leftmost button first. And thus the OK button should be the leftmost button, due to it being the most frequently used one.
That's why i fully agree with Shift and Alain on this matter!
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Re: Button order
by SadEagle on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @12:13
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You're forgetting that things exist in the context. And the context is that most KDE users are used to the current layout, so switching it around will hurt existing users, since it'll break their habbits. The difference in usability has to be tremendously big to justify any change like that.
Oh, and is the Apple research published (and peer-reviewed) someplace?
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Re: Button order
by Aaron J. Seigo on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @12:29
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> Oh, and is the Apple research published (and peer-reviewed) someplace?
i wish. AFAIK almost nobody openly publishes their usability research. sort of like when nobody published their source code in the software development world.
optimistically speaking, i think we may be seeing the start of "Open Source" usability. this may well have similar impacts on the usability industry that "Open Source" coding has had on the writing of source code.
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Order
by anonymous on Tuesday 04/Feb/2003, @14:06
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BREAKTHROUGH RESEARCH REVEALS PROPER ORDER OF BUTTONS
I just finished a $2.5 million 3 year R&D project. The final result is that the "OK" button be placed on the bottom left of the window, and the "CANCEL" button on the bottom right.
This conclusion should be adopted by all Open Source dekstop projects because it costed 2.5 million dollars and lasted 3 years. If you disagree with this conclusion, you do not know enough about UI design to make a valid argument against this conclusion. This is the One True Way to put buttons on a window.
[/ihopeyouknowimmakingfunofyourassforbeingsofuckingclosedmindedandabrainwashedappledrone]
Thank you for your time.
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Re: Button order
by Kristian Poul Herkild on Saturday 26/Nov/2005, @23:18
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Of course there can be a button order which is right for me and wrong for you.
Whatever button order I'm used to is right for me, and will of course be wrong for a long-term mac user.
The Gnome button order is very wrong for me, because I'm forced to use WinXP at college, and have a dual-boot system at home (which means I have an option to boot Win2K3, if I want to.. I don't).
Having to switch between two very different systems are very problematic, and annoying, which means lower productivity and a lot of frustration.
However, this is because I'm used to another button order. Anyway, changing button order should be easy to do. Besides that, the eye is in the lower left corner, when you get to the buttons, and not in the lower right corner. The eyes go from upper left to upper right, and from upper right to lower left, and from lower left to lower right....
So button order should be (from left to right in a LTR locale, like european languages): Yes No Cancel (unless you're coming from Mac-worldm and are used to the mirrored button order - in that case: Stick to that one).
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