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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Ed Moyse on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @05:09
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I think I must have stumbled on dot.gnome.org by mistake ....
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Excellent Summary!
by ML on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @05:20
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Wow. You've got some really interesting and shocking material here. This really opened my eyes about what's going on at the GNOME camp.
I think you should publish this somewhere. I was simply amazed reading this text. I had no idea some people have such an attitude toward users. This is a really sad direction the GNOME project is going.
Kudos for an amazing summary!
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by AC on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @05:45
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Did you notice the kde.org in the URL? :)
Beside that, it all depends on your target group. There are people who will benefit from the developments in Gnome - they just don't match the target group of Gnome 1.x... the problem for Gnome will be that many developers aren't in their target group either...
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Chakie on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @05:46
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Please, post this somewhere else. We don't need any extra flamebaits here. This is a site devoted to discussing and presenting interesting stuff about KDE, not bashing GNOME, ok?
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by GuestX on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @06:14
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First of all, I wouldn't necessarily agree with the comment that libxml2 and various other libraries are GNOME-centred - even if many of them started out as being useful to the GNOME project, they've moved out of that arena and into wider relevance now.
However, what you've written seems to confirm what other people have written, too: the aspects that made GNOME successful are being trashed for the sake of uncertain corporate objectives. My personal view is that for a long time, while KDE was "safe but boring" in its 1.x series (and ideal for the corporate desktop?!), GNOME provided an outlet for experimentation, but then the most that ever seemed to happen in GNOME was fancy new panel applets which tended to lock the panel up more than anything else. Moreover, the GNOME attitude at the time of the 1.0 release was that GNOME Midnight Commander was enough and that if you needed to use a Web browser then pop up Netscape Communicator - it's that attitude that keeps XFCE going, forever in its own niche of xterm power-users. Meanwhile, KDE managed to deliver an integrated environment which actually offered both users and developers something, rather than yet another program launcher.
Of course, GNOME has been trying to "steal its clothes back" since KDE 2.x, but "innovations" like Nautilus which attempt to deliver a comparable user experience were just toys when introduced and arguably haven't integrated well with the desktop environment (and its framework) until recently. And the GNOME project has had to work hard in both appealing to developers (whilst upheaval continues in the APIs) and to users (with or without hard cash). Perhaps they just have to compromise in certain areas, spending more time on one audience at the expense of another.
In my opinion, anyone who wanted a coherent desktop environment switched to KDE at around 2.x and hasn't looked back - there just hasn't been a compelling reason to switch back to GNOME, whereas numerous reasons exist to switch to KDE, as the above comment makes quite clear.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Anonymous on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @06:28
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Ali aka Galaxy, turn off your computer and get a life.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Siets on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @06:36
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That's one interesting summary you wrote, I appreciate the effort you spent on writing it.
Also I do believe this -is- KDE related. Most kde users also use gtk programs like The Gimp and so on. Now with programs like The Gimp (and ximian's OO.o ) being integrated in Gnome (or the other way around), all of this will also come to us. Besides that I think it's very important to know what's going on in "the other camp", and more generally know what's going on in the rest of the desktop *nix community.
The writer of this article looks really angry to me, about the way the Gnome developers are heading. But there is one important point that wasn't clearly mentioned, and that is what's meant with a "user". Most *nix users of today aren't comparable in any way with the "user" those companies have in mind. The statements they make are appropriate for their target-audience, which doesn't include the writer of the article nor me).
And I agree with them, an oridinaty corporate user doesn't have to know what a window manager or a kernel is. They don't even want to know it !!!!! They just want to use that thing that's on their desk to do what they're good at.
Now that's a whole other user than the ones which designed and coded Gnome. What I don't understand is why those two worlds can't seem to be combined in Gnome ?!
<ot>
I also think the bad KDE/Gnome interaction isn't because it isn't technically possible, it's just because of people who can't agree on things, almost religion-like.
Why aren't the icons universal? Why can't we see a for example KDE "open file" dialog on a Gnome application? etc...
This is just one example in the recent weeks a lot of lists like this appeared, and most of them make a good point.
Unless these problems aren't resolved the *nix desktop will never be widely accepted, and will remain in the area it is now, both KDE and Gnome.
-- If that is what you would like to see of course --
</ot>
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by AC on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @07:08
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You don't see a file dialog in a Gnome app because it is a hell of a overhead.. additionally to the gnome libraries it would need to link to Qt and kdelibs/ui. The browsing is done by libkonq AFAIK which is needed as well. For KIO thats used in the dialog you also need KIO and will have some kio slaves running. For previews you need the file preview plugins. For file watching you need kded and the file watcher running. These in turn depend on dcop, so you need to have the dcopserver running as well. Because loading is slow and memory inefficient without kdeinit you need that as well. KDE is very modular and re-uses a lot of components. In other words, for the file dialog alone you need to have most of kde loaded and running.
And then come the next problem: there is no compatibility between various subsystems. A valid KIO URL is not guaranteed to be usable by Gnome's vfs. The previews use a completely different system than the application that opens it later, which may cause another systems.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Sad Eagle on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @07:34
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No, the file dialog doesn't need libkonq, the relevant classes are in kio/kfile. (libkonq is also in kdebase, not libs)
Other than that, great overview, I wish I was as patient as you and would write stuff out in that much detail.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Siets on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @07:59
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Thankyou for your clear explanation (about the technical issues involved (which I like the most)).
I do understand all of your points made, and I'm certainly not complaining it isn't there. I'm talking about mainstream acceptance. _If_ some company or somebody else wants the *nix desktop te be widely accepted, I think these problems have to be resolved. (without looking to the technical aspects)
But for your explanation: if you're already running a KDE environment (I suppose you don't want a KDE dialog in a Gnome environment), what's the objection of the overhead?
The subsystems used aren't compatible, as stated, but I'm sure their incompatibilities could be resolved.
I suppose there are (a lot) more problems to this than you mentioned. But it all boils down to the decisions that are (going to be) made about what's important, time can only be spend once. And then again it only gets done if someone feels like doing it (the development of open source software doesn't work the same way as in a software company, one can't dictate the other what to code).
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Navindra Umanee on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @10:26
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The same idiot or one of his fellow trolls was going around the dot posting the KDE version of this article. It's a troll that was written a long time ago and random people pick it up and repost it to random websites.
The KDE version has been posted here many times and is now just deleted/banned on sight.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Troll Detector on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @06:57
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*BEEP* *BEEP* *BEEP*
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Rithvik on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @08:12
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Wow, I think this would make a nice article on its own, somewhere else.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Andy Cheung on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @09:32
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> projects such as KDE are reaching easily 10-20K commits
> per month - GNOME is getting around 1-2K per month
> on it's best times.
Is this really true? I'm amazed that KDE is getting ten times more commits than Gnome. I know KDE is moving a lot quicker than Gnome but I wouldn't have imagined these figures. Can anyone comment on the accuracy please?
Also mainy thanks to the poster who put in such an intersting (albeit gargantuan) post.
Andy Cheung
http://www.andycheung.com
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Datschge on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @10:07
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Well, I actually think this kind of stuff is hard to count (GNOME pages seem to have barely any statistic pages).
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GNOME Software (dunno what this includes and excludes but it seem to include all GTK 1.x and 2.x apps as well)
830 projects according to http://www.gnome.org/softwaremap/list
KDE Software according to http://apps.kde.com/na/2/announcements
872 KDE 3.x apps, 230 QT 3.x apps, 1938 projects altogether (including KDE/QT 1.x/2.x stuff etc.)
It's hard to see how many of those projects are duplicated efforts. Considering however that KDE heavily encourages the reuse of existing code for avoiding duplication I'd expect a better quota for KDE than GTK/GNOME.
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GNOME CVS commits http://mail.gnome.org/archives/cvs-commits-list/index.html
Really hard to say since you need to count it manually using their mailing list archive, also there is no way you can get an overview which kind of commits are getting posted except you read every single post.
KDE CVS commits http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-cvs
Here you can see the amount of posted commits (7228 last month, 9073 in January, 7190 in December etc.). Furthermore anyone can get a good overview over the major commits posts at Derek Kite's weekly KDE-CVS Digest at http://members.shaw.ca/dkite/index.html
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Altogether I think this all neither proves nor negates the "projects such as KDE are reaching easily 10-20K commits per month - GNOME is getting around 1-2K per month on it's best times" quote, but the overal impression on people often is quite similar to that in my experience.
Peace, Datschge
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Bahruz on Wednesday 18/Jun/2003, @04:01
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Hi my name is Bahruz from Azerbaijan.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Navindra Umanee on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @10:09
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This is not a GNOME website, this garbage just doesn't belong here.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Echo6 on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @10:59
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I thought it was interesting. I am a KDE user and proud of it, but I like to hear about GNOME every now and again. The two groups need to interact, and he did talk a bit about that. If ya didnt like it stop reading and page down.
My big thing is shortcuts/icons/whatever you want to call them. I think that is being worked on to have both desktops use the same system for populating the menus. When I install an app whatever religion/language it adheres to it should add a link in my menu whether im in GNOME or KDE. Right now they dont, so most of the time i use the run command and go from there.
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by ac on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @11:06
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www.gnome.org
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Navindra Umanee on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @11:09
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> If ya didnt like it stop reading and page down.
Your patronising tone is quite unnecessary, thank you... :-P
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Echo6 on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @11:21
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Ok, my bad. Lets just agree to disagree :)
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Datschge on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @15:39
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I agree that it doesn't really belong here, but why do you call it garbage?
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by rich on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @12:28
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Hahah, lol.. that's the 109342st time I'm seeing that flame posted somewhere :)
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Re: GNOME Armageddon
by Datschge on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @15:46
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Call it a "flame" if you like but the included links are very insightful and much appreciated.
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Damn, some HARDCORE piece you wrote there...
by cies on Friday 28/Mar/2003, @20:07
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...flame on boy! [right on the ass]
Kinda like you style of writing; y're good, a talent.
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WoW Post this as a separate editorial!
by Alex on Saturday 29/Mar/2003, @11:36
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YOU NEED TO BE HEARD! There are so many controversial, but very important issues you mentioned. There needs to be a few grammar, spelling and capitalization corrections. However, the content is all there.
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