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What I would like to see
by jb on Thursday 19/Jun/2003, @12:46
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Basically I have two problems with KOffice:
1) The lack of standard file formats in the free software world. There was some talk about an oasis standard based on OpenOffice (which seems to be the most widespread free word processor today), but has anything happened? Office work has a lot to gain from Linux desktops but interoperability between them, say with a clean Bluecurve or Ximian professional desktop, must be perfect.
2) The sad state of interoperability with proprietary Microsoft Office solutions. Again, OpenOffice seems to be state of the art here. There was some promising work with wvlib, did anything come out of that? Is OpenOffice a completely indepedent codebase?
I would guess the easiest way to hack together a working solution would be to rip out the filters from OpenOffice to use in KOffice, and start using their document format right away. Has there been any progress with that?
(As I could understand, the filters mentioned in the article are just export/import filters for OpenOffice documents from/to the KOffice semi-proprietary ones.)
It is somewhat amusing that not only do we have two major Linux desktops projects out there, but that the most widespread killer apps out there (OpenOffice and Mozilla) belong to neither. The latter is almost a desktop environment of its own. I hope all this experimentation will be fruitful for free software on the desktop for the masses in the long run! |
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Re: What I would like to see
by Rinse on Thursday 19/Jun/2003, @14:00
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>"It is somewhat amusing that not only do we have two major Linux desktops projects out there, but that the most widespread killer apps out there (OpenOffice and Mozilla) belong to neither"
Both applications were already available before KDE and Gnome were founded. No wonder they don't 'belong' to either desktop.
Rinse
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Re: What I would like to see
by Eric Laffoon on Thursday 19/Jun/2003, @14:35
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I just love it when people do their homework instead of babbling nonsense...
> The lack of standard file formats in the free software world. There was some talk about an oasis standard based on OpenOffice (which seems to be the most widespread free word processor today), but has anything happened?
In fact both office suites use an XML format now. Beyond that Koffice switched from gzip to the worthless zip compression format as an initial move toward a common file format. I haven't followed recent developments in this area but that doesn't mean they haven't continued. FWIW Kword is a frames based word procssor and OO writer is not. However I'd say that having filters is certainly a serious step in that direction. Some things can't be done in a short time span.
> Office work has a lot to gain from Linux desktops but interoperability between them, say with a clean Bluecurve or Ximian professional desktop, must be perfect.
What in the world are you talking about? Running M$ office on Linux with Ximian? What does that have to do with Koffice? Maybe you're in the wrong place?
> The sad state of interoperability with proprietary Microsoft Office solutions. Again, OpenOffice seems to be state of the art here. There was some promising work with wvlib, did anything come out of that?
Why don't you at least look at koffice instead of looking to have somebody else read the release information to you or check the dependencies and get back to you? Filtering is a joint effort.
> It is somewhat amusing that not only do we have two major Linux desktops projects out there, but that the most widespread killer apps out there (OpenOffice and Mozilla) belong to neither.
I really hope you're not amused that we have two desktops because we elected not to be fascist with one. Your "killer OSS" apps are a laughable choice when contrasted to the current Linux desktops. KDE is the oldest starting from nothing in 1996. OO.org in contrast started as Star Division in Germany IIRC in the late 80s but certainly was in development in the early 90s. I think we can agree that for a desktop based office suite you need the desktop first. Koffice is roughly 1/4 the age of OO.org and is preferable for many uses. OO.org had it's code base donated to open source when it was already a mature app. Mozilla is another story, starting out as Netscape it was open sourced and then re written from the ground up taking over four years to reach a 1.0 release and giving up about 60% of the web browser market. By most standards that's not exactly a stunning success. When Apple chose an HTML viewer component most of them were involved with Mozilla but went with KDE's KHTL instead.
It's actually pretty un-amusing anyone could make such a lame comparison. Outside of pre-existing software the new killer apps are largely desktop specific. On KDE that would certainly include Koffice along with Kdevelop, Quanta and a number of other excellent apps.
> I hope all this experimentation will be fruitful for free software on the desktop for the masses in the long run!
FUD somebody else! I'm busy making the best web development app anywhere with Quanta. It's NOT an experiment! If you want to comment then read something current on what you want to comment on instead of operating on assumptions.
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Re: What I would like to see
by James Richard Tyrer on Thursday 19/Jun/2003, @17:47
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> 2) The sad state of interoperability with proprietary Microsoft Office solutions.
I think that so-called interoperability question is much overrated.
Part of this is that people are so stupid that they send people FINISHED documents in a wordprocessor's native file format rather than RTF or PDF.
Quite often these even contain deleted text. :-(
If you want to send someone a completed document, you should use an open standard file format such as PDF or PS.
So, what I think is needed is the ability to import PDF and PS files (perhaps RTF would be a good idea as well). KWord now has a PDF import filter which I see as a great interoperability feature.
So, I ask: are there really a lot of instances where multiple users need to work on the same document with different wordprocessors?
--
JRT
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Re: What I would like to see
by KOffice fan on Thursday 19/Jun/2003, @21:48
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Boy, you sure do bring all the FUD that's been refuted millions of times already.
1) The common standard is still being developed, but something like that doesn't happen overnight. KOffice is moving toward it, but the first step is the development of OOo filters which would smooth the transition. As a start, KOffice changed their file format to use zip, and be more similar to the OOo way of doing it. Changing to a different fileformat is a HUUGE undertaking and KOffice needs volunteers to help it.
2) wvlib is still being developed, but the focus is on getting things right. The current filters work very well for basic elements, and support for complex stuff like embedded objects, tables etc, is coming later. wvlib is shared between Abiword and KOffice, and has nothing to do with OO filters.
If you think that ripping out OpenOffice filters is that easy, why don't you do it. The fact is that it was tried, but was so damn complicated that there would be no point. Shaheed has explained this on the Koffice list many times over. Also, switching to the OOo/Oasis file format is planned for later versions of KOffice. It is not something you can do in a day.
BTW, KOffice document format is based on XML, is documented and transparent. Why are you calling it semi-proprietary?
I really appreciate KOffice for what it is -- a lightweight office that's intuitive, fast, and fun to use. Once the filters improve and there is a common document format, it will be great for most purposes. The only thing KOffice needs is help from coders.
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Re: What I would like to see
by AC on Friday 20/Jun/2003, @01:29
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>>The lack of standard file formats in the free software world. There was some talk about an oasis standard based on OpenOffice (which seems to be the most widespread free word processor today), but has anything happened? <<
I guess one of the problem is that a word processor is not a word processor. Unlike any other major word processor, KWord is frame-based. OO's Writer is able to do web forms, which are not supported in KWord. And there will be thousands of things like that...
You could save the world so much trouble by just using the same word processor as your co-workers (when you collaborate) and otherwise use PDF (when the document is done)...
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Re: What I would like to see
by Ferdinand on Friday 20/Jun/2003, @10:57
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What I miss in the discussion is TIME. No office user has time to deal with file formats. What counts today is speed.
Using kmail and receiving M$.doc files is just a painful experience. No way to sell this. So it's not just KOffice which suffers it's the acceptance of KDE-Desktop.
just my 2c
BTW I try to use as much as possible of KDE, but sometimes this compatibility question IS th e issue.
ferdinand
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