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Re: Great ida!
by AC on Wednesday 27/Aug/2003, @03:54
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It fits greatly in the long term world domination scheme, don't it? ;)
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Re: Great ida!
by Magnus Johansson on Wednesday 27/Aug/2003, @11:21
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I'm not so happy to hear this. As someone who has done his share of import filter implementation, I've learned that the file format reflects the features of a program. If koffice adopts the OO-format, I'm afraid it might set an upper limit to what features will be possible to implement in koffice. koffice will never be able to go beyond what OO provides, featurewise (at least when it comes to features that require support from the file format).
The two main problems with doing import filters are:
1. The importing program lacks features the exporting program has.
2. The features match, but are implemented differently (the file format often reflects the implementation details).
1 can't be solved, unless the missing features are implemented.
2 can often be solved, but it is often trickier than expected.
To those who claim XML solves the problem by being extensible: If the file format is extended to let koffice implement features not present in the original OO-format, both problem 1 and problem 2 above will show up, and you have gained nothing by using the OO-format. (One of the formats I wrote filters for actually was an XML-format, and I had both problems.)
My suggestion: Keep the koffice format, or change it to suit your needs, but don't depend on others. Make sure everything is properly documented, and write the necessary filters.
I'm afraid the whole file format mess will persist. The problem is not that each program has its own format (that's the way it should be IMHO), but rather that users distribute files in formats that were intended to be used when writing the document. They should instead distribute the files in a format that was created for distribution purposes (e.g. pdf, html, rtf). I realise that this is not always possible since there doesn't exist that kind of format for every application domain.
Sorry if I'm ranting ;-)
/Magnus
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Re: Great ida!
by Luther John on Wednesday 27/Aug/2003, @11:48
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"They should instead distribute the files in a format that was created for distribution purposes (e.g. pdf, html, rtf). I realise that this is not always possible since there doesn't exist that kind of format for every application domain."
Hello Magnus!
The problem is that in the real world, users can't possibly always do this. My entire office has years and years of (perhaps gigabytes) of MS Word proposals, hundreds of PowerPoint presentations, and a great deal of MS Excel spreadsheets. There are also a lot of very old WordPerfect documents, but those are from the earlier 90's.
We have a enormous investment in MS Office, and currently, 100% of the office machines have MS Office loaded in them. When people in our office need to take home, 99% of the time, it's not a problem because they have MS Office at home.
The problem is for the other (growing) 1%, like me. It's a huge barrier to switching to some alternative OS like Linux without having compatability with existing documents, and being able to effectively communicate with others (which means, the ability to export MS Office docs is important too)
In fact, I was pretty much a hobbist with Linux until OpenOffice came along. Since then, I've been able to switch to Linux full time at home. I've also been using Koffice for years, and I love it's interface compared to OO's crappy interface, but I couldn't really use it for anything serious. And I still can't until there is a way to natively open MS documents (wether it be through OpenOffice, I don't care..)
To me, Koffice doesn't really need to have any more features than OpenOffice.. it just needs to provide a better interface than the crappy java OpenOffice interface.
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Re: Great ida!
by Magnus Johansson on Wednesday 27/Aug/2003, @12:25
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"The problem is for the other (growing) 1%, like me. It's a huge barrier to switching to some alternative OS like Linux without having compatability with existing documents, and being able to effectively communicate with others (which means, the ability to export MS Office docs is important too)"
I agree with pretty much everything you say, but IMHO the solution is not koffice swithing to the OO-format, but rather work on the import/export filters.
I don't think it's wrong if they base the koffice format upon the OO one, but if they restrict themselves from extending and/or modifying it to suit their needs, they're making a mistake IMO.
(Disclaimer: I haven't looked at either file format, but AFAIK they're both based on XML. I have, however, done similar work in another application domain.)
/Magnus
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Re: Great ida!
by Peter Simonsson on Wednesday 27/Aug/2003, @15:01
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David Faure is a member of the OASIS group that works on the standard, so I'm pretty sure he will cater for koffice's needs. :)
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Re: Great ida!
by Nicolas Goutte on Wednesday 27/Aug/2003, @15:05
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Nobody has said that there will be no private extensions ot the OO format (OASIS being a public extension compared to OO version 1.0) But I think that we need long before we even get to that border.
As for working on import/export filters, sorry, but when there is not any programmer, you cannot do much. (Volunteers, email to koffice@kde.org please.)
Have a nice day!
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Re: Great ida!
by Nicolas Goutte on Wednesday 27/Aug/2003, @15:08
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I have some problems to follow.
If we have decided to change our file formats, it is because we do not want to keep the old ones.
So I find that it is better to take a good foundation like the OO format and to build on it, instead of creating again private file formats. Sure private extensions (not necessarily from KOffice) will surely exist, they exist too in RTF. But even in such a document, you can read most of it (instead of nothing.)
As you have written, using XML does not give the solution by itself. Yes, Abiword's file format is not KWord's is not OOWriter's. That is exactly our problem. That is why we try to find a solution.
KOffice just cannot remain an isolated solution, not even (or barely) available on Windows.
Document the file formats? Writing filters. especially for other applications? Nice, but where do you get the manpower? Someone in AbiWord's bugzilla (#1144) asked if a KOffice developer could help with their KWord filters. What can we answer for now? Only: "no, sorry, no people!" (I have not even dared to give this answer yet.)
By the way: if people want to volunteer, please contact: koffice@kde.org
Have a nice day!
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Re: Great ida!
by Magnus Johansson on Thursday 28/Aug/2003, @01:39
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"So I find that it is better to take a good foundation like the OO format and to build on it, instead of creating again private file formats. Sure private extensions (not necessarily from KOffice) will surely exist, they exist too in RTF. But even in such a document, you can read most of it (instead of nothing.)"
From the article I got the impression that you wanted to use the OO format as it is, not as a base. If you are not happy with the current format and want to switch anyway, and don't mind adding to the OO format, I agree that you should change.
"By the way: if people want to volunteer, please contact: koffice@kde.org"
I probably will at some point, but it will (likely) not be file format related work I volunteer (I've done enough to know that I don't like it :-). Until I find the time needed to actually contribute, I lurk on the mailinglists and share my thoughts on things I've some experience with and hope that it will be useful to someone.
Regards,
Magnus
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Re: Great ida!
by Nicolas Goutte on Thursday 28/Aug/2003, @04:55
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In fact we plan to switch to the OASIS format, which is based on OO. As long as David Faure is part of OASIS, it is better to try to make any extension part of OASIS. That is why I suppose that nobody is talking about private extensions.
Thank you to have thought about contributing! If you know so much about file formats, perhaps you could help use with the filter pages ( http://www.koffice.org/filters .) You would need to know about XHTML 1.0, PHP 4 and perhaps XSLT 1.0. So perhaps you could use your knowledge.
Have a nice day!
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Re: Great ida!
by Chris Evans on Tuesday 10/Aug/2004, @09:11
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Based on what I've read, OASIS is NOT "the OpenOffice" format. OASIS is an independant organization dedicated to creating an open file standard for commonly used business applications. It just happens that OpenOffice.org adopted it first. But I don't think that necessarily places any restrictions on what KOffice will or will not be able to do with the formats. What it does is levels the playing field and places emphasis on chosing, say, a word processor based on what it will do for the user, rather than having to worry about who will be able to read the file type, an idea I'm totally in favor of. This could be the one thing that helps to break the office suite monopoly that Microsoft has such a strangle-hold on. Just remember that in the audio world, the MP3 file type has been embraced completely; no one complains about limitations, and everyone uses which ever recording or playback application they choose. The result is an audio file that can be played back on just about any kind of software or hardware available. I firmly believe the same will happen with office documents with the adoption of the OASIS standard.
And that will put KOffice in a decided advantage over OpenOffice, which is huge and relies too heavily on Java.
Bravo, KOffice team...keep up the great work.
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Re: Great ida!
by Nicolas Goutte on Tuesday 10/Aug/2004, @10:21
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Just a little note: the OASIS open office format is based on OO's file format, even if at the end it differs in many details.
Have a nice day!
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