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Re: VPL
by Thorsten Schnebeck on Saturday 29/Nov/2003, @17:43
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(me too :-)
Is VPL == quanta/quanta/parts/kafka ?
I can't compile that
Bye
Thorsten
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Re: VPL
by Eric Laffoon on Saturday 29/Nov/2003, @22:14
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> Is VPL == quanta/quanta/parts/kafka ?
Essentially yes. There's a good deal of integration with Quanta internals and also a lot of new public interface in KHTML supporting this too. Of course you need them all.
> I can't compile that
Most likely that would be because you are on KDE 3.1. As I mentioned there are a lot of KHTML changes. Also, you might not expect this, but because of the integration we also use some new features in the Kate part. Currently we have been working to get VPL as usable as possible and since changes were required in these parts of kdelibs it doesn't build and run unless you are using a fairly new CVS build on KDE 3.2. I can't even imagine the issues to back port this to KDE 3.1. So it is a little awkward to deliver on KDE 3.2 but not many people are running it yet. Also, because this is a development branch there are small enhancements already showing up that either are not yet in HEAD or won't be in until after release due to freezes. It should run fine on beta 2 and we will most likely release again before the release candidate.
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Re: VPL
by Thorsten Schnebeck on Sunday 30/Nov/2003, @03:07
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No, here is KDE-cvs-HEAD andgcc-3.2 (Stable is for cowards :-P )
make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/kde-cvs/quanta/quanta/parts/kafka'
source='htmlenhancer.cpp' object='htmlenhancer.lo' libtool=yes \
depfile='.deps/htmlenhancer.Plo' tmpdepfile='.deps/htmlenhancer.TPlo' \
depmode=gcc3 /bin/sh ../../../admin/depcomp \
/bin/sh ../../../libtool --silent --mode=compile --tag=CXX g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I../../.. -I../../.. -I../../../quanta/parts/kafka -I/usr/kde/3.1/include -I/usr/qt/3/include -I/usr/X11R6/include -DQT_THREAD_SUPPORT -D_REENTRANT -DKOMMANDER -DDESIGNER -DQT_NO_SQL -DHAVE_KDE -Wnon-virtual-dtor -Wno-long-long -Wundef -Wall -W -Wpointer-arith -Wwrite-strings -ansi -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=500 -Wcast-align -Wconversion -Wchar-subscripts -Wformat-security -Wmissing-format-attribute -DLIBXML_2_5 -c -o htmlenhancer.lo `test -f 'htmlenhancer.cpp' || echo './'`htmlenhancer.cpp
htmlenhancer.cpp: In member function `virtual bool
HTMLEnhancer::enhanceNode(Node*, DOM::Node, DOM::Node)':
htmlenhancer.cpp:58: `class Node' has no member named `_rootNode'
[...]
htmlenhancer.cpp:131: `class Node' has no member named `_leafNode'
[...]
make[1]: *** [htmlenhancer.lo] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/kde-cvs/quanta/quanta/parts/kafka'
make: *** [all-recursive] Error
Sorry for misusing the dots for reporting compiling problem :-}
Bye
Thorsten
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Re: VPL
by Andras Mantia on Sunday 30/Nov/2003, @03:49
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Please contact us via e-mail (directly or through the user list). I don't
see any error in the code, so I suspect a local configuration problem at you. Send me the configure output.
Andras
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Re: VPL
by Thorsten Schnebeck on Sunday 30/Nov/2003, @06:01
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From the old HEAD setup I used
./configure --with-kafkapart
This does not work and make these errors. A clean checkout and reinstall worked. Playing with VPL is nice. Ok, this stuff needs some work and quanta crashed after a while.
But Eric and Andras:
Quanta is a realy nice and useful productive tool. Sometimes I wish that Quanta gets more visual tools like building clickable graphics
(kimagemapeditor) or an active-link-checker integrated in quantas workflow. Maybe Kommander is here a solution. For working in a intuitive way please pay attention to the plugin and tools menu: I don't think that its good to split these helpers into 2 main menus(?)
Please look from time to time to Dreamweaver and Adobe Golive: They have some interesting GUIs and visual tools for the web workflow. So far Quanta is still more web programming than web designing.
Keep up the good work!
Bye
Thorsten
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Re: VPL
by Andras Mantia on Sunday 30/Nov/2003, @07:06
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KImageMapEditor can be used as a plugin. The author of it converted to a KPart quite some time ago and he advertises that you can use inside
Quanta. :-) We just doesn't ship it by default.
Regarding menus, especially the Plugin menu: yes, there is room to improve.
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Re: VPL
by Eric Laffoon on Sunday 30/Nov/2003, @08:56
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> ./configure --with-kafkapart
This is not needed as it's now the default.
> Sometimes I wish that Quanta gets more visual tools like building clickable graphics (kimagemapeditor)
See the screenshots. It integrates as a kpart and of course, we didn't have to build it. ;-)
> or an active-link-checker integrated in quantas workflow. Maybe Kommander is here a solution.
As I've often said, our problem has never been one of ideas, but of resources. (Though occasionally users send in really good ideas) One of our ideas I plan on building shortly will obsolete link checkers, however there's piles of scripts our there that do a decent job. There's not much to them. You can use the script directory and select a launch method. If you have parameters to set on that Kommander works great for it. That is why we made Quanta user extensible. In spite of us only being a handful of guys there's an emberassing wealth of free Unix type utilities like link checking scripts that can be integrated into Quanta. We're not trying to make people dependent on our tool. We're trying to make our tool the most dependable core of their toolkit.
> Please look from time to time to Dreamweaver and Adobe Golive: They have some interesting GUIs and visual tools for the web workflow.
I've looked through their preview sales info. I'm not saying it's bad but the windows way is to worship the GUI and forget the power of the console and scripting. These interfaces can be cute but get in your way when you want to be fast. Theirs have had time to refine but to me they show the differences in how one team or programmer approaches things and how it's all custom built for each thing. Quanta is not as glitzy because some of of our reuse is not the sexiest choice and certainly we haven't had time to finish our vision either. Personally I'm not against taking a good idea from these tools but I don't want to get myself dirty with a lot of what I don't think are good ideas that might muddy my thinking.
There are several ideas we plan on introducing shortly, and in discussions with users of commercial tools the conclusions are that there is nothing even remotely close to these ideas. I don't personally feel there is much real innovation on that platform anyway. I'm betting that a year from now a hell of a lot more people will be telling those guys to look at us but they already will be. Frankly I'd much rather lead than copy so I don't care to start sniffing their flanks right now when I'm going for the fresh air in front. ;-)
> So far Quanta is still more web programming than web designing.
It takes time. And web designing from the "rearrange the static nightmare and make users dependent on our tool to fix the mess" perspective promoted by these guys is not anything to be proud of. Even when our design elements are incorporated they will work to advance new paradigms and further W3C usage instead of coddling lamers who can't even understand HTML 3.2. We seek to make our users more empowered, not more dependent.
> Keep up the good work!
You know we will. ;-) Thanks!
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Re: VPL
by Richard Moore on Monday 01/Dec/2003, @04:24
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> > Please look from time to time to Dreamweaver and Adobe Golive: They have some interesting GUIs and visual tools for the web workflow.
> I've looked through their preview sales info. I'm not saying it's bad but the > windows way is to worship the GUI and forget the power of the console and scripting.
Actually Dreamweaver is mostly javascript underneath, take a look in the data directories and you'll see that you can tweak a hell of a lot.
Rich.
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Re: VPL
by Eric Laffoon on Saturday 29/Nov/2003, @22:38
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> Where are the screenshots of VPL?
As I mentioned on another post, I kind of zoned out on this. I'll take new ones and post them soon. Look for a mention on the other thread here.
> How is it coming along?
It's progressing fairly well I think. Really it's difficult to assess in some ways because there are a lot of pieces coming together and things can change dramatically on convergence. The later release of KDE 3.2 was less of an issue for Quanta with general bugs as our counts are pretty low. However in the areas of the parser and VPL there's a lot that needs "fixed". We have just done a substantial rework of the parser which provides benefits to speed and bug fixes in Quanta as well as greater capabilities. It also broke some things in VPL. Most of that has been fixed and a number of issues have been taken care of so that VPL is marginally usable now. It's usable for most editing tasks but has some focus issues for new element creation moving to the next element.
If I were to give a candid assessment I'd say that it's several months behind where I'd like it to be in a perfect world. I believe it will be stable and usable for 3.2 but we are just getting to reviewing how our theories work in use right now. This leads to fine tuning and if an interface enhancement is indicated it's pretty much going to end up in the BE branch. Some of our objectives that would set VPL way ahead such as being usable for non HTML markup will not be in this release. What VPL *will* accomplish in 3.2 is to write DTD compliant markup and *not* mangle your document. So if it falls short of virtual perfection it will at least avoid the terrible legacy of classic WYSIWYG markup butchers like FrontPage. Refinements will be available in futre BE releases prior to KDE 3.3/4.0.
> I'm interested in this new Quanta mode.
I think a lot of people are. One very cool thing that it does right now very well is to offer a split mode of visual and text where you can click on the page and have the cursor follow in text. Even being able to point on a page and go right to the underlying markup is quite liberating for an old hand coder like me. ;-)
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