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Re: Pure Lazyness
by gerd on Monday 20/Sep/2004, @07:58
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what about basic or Delphi?
Most people here celebrate Python and Ruby because they achieve the same what visual Basic and Delphi provided for years. |
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by Philippe Fremy on Monday 20/Sep/2004, @08:12
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You are joking right ? I don't know for Delphi, but Visual Basic has some inner limitations (limited class model and other stuff) that python and ruby do not have.
For example, I sometimes like to do a dynamic class inheritance. I have also seen python used as a functional language, which I doubt Visual Basic could ever do.
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by Richard Dale on Monday 20/Sep/2004, @08:23
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"they achieve the same what visual Basic and Delphi provided for years"
No, not at all - both python and ruby are a long, long way ahead of what Basic and Delphi provide. Basic started off as a simpified FORTRAN, pascal (ie the Delphi language) started off as a simplified Algol. Ruby and python don't share those ancestors, instead they are more branches off various AI research languages. I started programming in 1976 learning the language POP-11 on an AI course, and of all the languages I've used in the next quarter century ruby is the most similar. Even in the mid-1970s I regarded Basic (and FORTRAN) as an outdated pile of crap and I've always been puzzled as to why Basic subsequently became so popular in the 80's.
Matz the ruby designer isn't familiar with POP-11 as far as I know, and so it is only a coincidence that ruby is similar.
Python and ruby are languages for the 21st century, whereas Basic and pascal are both well past their sell by dates - I personally feel it is time to move on. Blocks, closures, continuations, list processing, pattern matching - that's ruby's realm and it used to be the exclusive preserve of AI languages like lisp (or POP-11 based on the lamda calculus like lisp, but with an Algol look).
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by Evan "JabberWokky" E. on Monday 20/Sep/2004, @10:57
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I've always felt that Delphi was much more closely related to Modula3 (which is related to Pascal, which is related to pseudocode for programming which is arguably related to Algol).
Ruby and Python are certainly "post compiler" languages. They do things in a way that ignores any considerations to the structure of the language compiler or interpreter. Other languages are tied to certain concepts regarding the underlying architecture and mechanics of the processor and machine. There are still some legacy concepts pulled over (hopefully the good ones), but they are very distinct from languages like C or C++... or even proper BASIC.
Incidently, this somewhat supports the idea that C (and derived) languages have their place as the underlying layer - if only to keep out system level extensions that would otherwise constrain a high level language. Use C (and kin) to build up from the processor to get to a level where easy tools can be used. In that sense, KDE and (BSD|Linux|Unix) are basically device drivers for the abstracted language.
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by Richard Dale on Monday 20/Sep/2004, @16:28
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"I've always felt that Delphi was much more closely related to Modula3 (which is related to Pascal, which is related to pseudocode for programming which is arguably related to Algol)."
If you read up on James Gosling's background you'll find he didn't have any object oriented programming experience before designing java and imposing it on the rest of us. He implemented a uscd-p system pascal compiler system on dec vax to solve some problem he had in the early 80's I believe, and just used that idea in conjunction with knowing the C++ had big problems, to invent java.
I feel Anders Hejlsberg (Delphi/C# designer) has more intellectual horsepower than Gosling, and certainly would have known about Modular-3 when implementing Delphi. Even so, when I attended a Delphi introduction presentation in 1996 or so, I can only remember feeling utterly underwhelmed. I was a fulltime NeXTStep programmer used to the dynamic runtime of Objective-C, and just couldn't understand why a warmed over Object Pascal would appeal to anyone..
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by D on Tuesday 21/Sep/2004, @18:12
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As opposed to a warmed over Object C? Smalltalkers on the other hand wonder what glue you've both been sniffing.
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by Richard Dale on Tuesday 21/Sep/2004, @18:53
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Yes, java doesn't seem to have been influenced by Smalltalk because maybe James Gosling didn't know anything much about it. Which is a shame - he wouldn't have come up with static methods instead of proper class methods with dynamic despatch. And classes would have been objects that you send a 'new' message to create an instance. That design error has been carried through to C# - I really don't like static methods.
"Resist the urge to overuse static methods.":
http://www.ftponline.com/javapro/2004_09/magazine/columns/proshop/
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by Evan "JabberWokky" E. on Thursday 23/Sep/2004, @12:44
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I have a feeling much of the reason is due to Borland's wide set of users that used TurboPascal and ilk to write real apps. Much like a C programmer moves to C derived languages easily, Delphi was easy for somebody used to Borland's Pascal offerings.
Incidently, Objective-C was specifically the reason I kept referring to "C derived languages". I'd love to use it, but haven't had a project that was appropriate. Other than a few single file programs one step beyond "Hello World", I haven't played with it. Most of my time these days is spent with PHP and enforcing proper coding practices on developers with bad habits.
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Re: Pure Lazyness
by Pure Lazyness on Monday 20/Sep/2004, @08:42
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Well Delphi would not achieve that, Haskell on the other hand is *Purely* functional and uses *Lazy* evaluation :) I was going for a easy harmless joke. Guess it didn't work.
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