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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by James Richard Tyrer on Saturday 13/Aug/2005, @21:42
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Look AC, I am tired of this game.
I stated my opinion. I have explicitly said that it is my opinion.
Is it your position that I am not entitled to have my personal opinion?
Is it your position that I am not entitled to express my personal opinion?
This is FREE SOFTWARE as in FREE SPEECH! But, you appear to be against free speech. Note that, in case you don't understand, that free speech means that other people are going to express opinions and ideas that you don't agree with.
Unfortunately we see a lot of comments like yours both here and on KDE lists. You have nothing constructive to add. Your only statements are that what someone else said is wrong. You don't state why they are wrong. You don't offer a constructive rebuttal. Your remarks reduce down to a childish: 'No, your wrong'. What does that accomplish.
Nobody has to accept my opinion, but I am not going to change it just because some AC says that I am wrong. Especially when they take what I say out of context.
Now, you are still not attaching the same meaning that I am to "professional software developers". But, I am not saying that there aren't any working on the KDE project. I wouldn't say that because it is a negative hypothesis. |
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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by cm on Saturday 13/Aug/2005, @22:59
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> Look AC, I am tired of this game.
Everyone is.
> I stated my opinion. I have explicitly said that it is my opinion.
> Is it your position that I am not entitled to have my personal opinion?
> Is it your position that I am not entitled to express my personal opinion?
The point is that no one really discussed your opinion because you managed once more to make a remark that was understood as offensive, in the very same posting.
Just how are the KDE devs to interpret what you said?
"a professional software developer would advise against the plan"
1. It could mean "one professional software developer would advise against the plan". Now that's far-fetched and certainly not what you meant, or is it?
2. It could mean "Any professional software developer would advise against the plan."
2a. It's a well-known fact that there are many professional software developers working on KDE using the definition of "professional" that has been established in this thread (some of whom have even spoken up in this thread and they said they didn't advise against the plan). So with this interpretation what you said must be false, this is basic logic. This was dead obvious right from the start to the people who replied to you so they discarded this interpretation.
2b. Or what you said was to imply that the people working on KDE are no professional software developers (as no one of them has advised against the plan). That's how your posting was understood as it's the only possible interpretation that is not obviously wrong. No wonder people feel attacked and took offense.
You stated later in the thread that 2b was not what you meant either. But then I've run out of possible (not-obviously-wrong) interpretations. And it seems I'm not the only one.
I'd advise against using such broad statements ("professional software developer would...", "engineers would...") in the future. You don't even speak for all engineers there are, let alone all professional software developers. Just skip this stuff and talk about the subject.
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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by James Richard Tyrer on Sunday 14/Aug/2005, @00:15
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> But then I've run out of possible (not-obviously-wrong) interpretations. And
> it seems I'm not the only one.
There is a term for people that interpert general and broad statements as applying to them (especial in a negative way): 'paranoid'. You, and others, misinterpreted what I said as some sort of attack on somebody. The statements made by various persons that in NO way addressed the question of whether this project -- which someone else characterized as a "HUGE job" -- is too much, seem to say more about the persons who made them than they do about me.
No, I didn't mean 1, 2, or 3. I was talking about a hypothetical person (this is a common rhetorical or literay device -- a subjunctive construct) and I meant someone that develops software commercially as their profession (the obvious definition). It should also be clear from context that I was talking about someone who was OUTSIDE of the project. Now, we may have a few "professional software developers" people working on the KDE project, but they are not working on KDE as their profession -- they are doing it as their hobby (and that includes me since I am a RETIRED engineer) and they certainly are not outside the project.
So lets just say that considering the (unbelievable) over sensitivity of some people that I should have said: 'an outside "commercial software developer" might advise against taking on such a "HUGE job" for a single release'. I am not saying that ALL such developers would say that, only that some would. If I had meant 'any' or 'all', I would have said that. However, I do agree with this hypothetical person. That is my point, and I wonder why nobody addressed the real point.
I plead guilty to not speaking precisely, but that is all. Why did I say it that way? Because I did not want to claim to be a "professional software developer". I did not intend any insult and the fact that others took offense is very questionable. It seem to be a game to me. One which I would prefer not to play anymore. When many people find the need to take everything personally, it makes rational discussion of any issue very difficult.
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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by cm on Sunday 14/Aug/2005, @01:38
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> You, and others, misinterpreted what I said as some sort of attack on somebody.
In fact I didn't. I was pretty sure you did not *want* to attack anyone personally. I just tried to explain why people *did* take offense by pointing out the different possible interpretations. Obviously your own was not included, but that should make you think.
> Now, we may have a few "professional software developers" people working on
> the KDE project, but they are not working on KDE as their profession -- they
> are doing it as their hobby
Wrong, not all of them. There are several people I'd call "professional software developers" paid by Trolltech, SuSE, Eric Laffon and others to work on KDE, and some even full time.
> If I had meant 'any' or 'all', I would have said that.
Maybe my command of the English language fails me here, but to me a statement like "a sw dev would do this and that" is as general as "a sheep produces whool" or "rain is wet". Leaving little or no alternatives.
What you said was understood as "If you were professional software developers you would see that this plan cannot work".
I know that's not what you wanted to say, at least not consciously.
> However, I do agree with this hypothetical person.
Why do you construct that hypothetical person at all? It does not give your point any more authority than you already have. I think most people here know about your engineering background by now. So why not let your opinion stand on its own instead of resorting to hypothetical sw devs or engineers. Otherwise people *will* point out that there are sw devs and engineers who disagree with you and your hypothetical expert.
> That is my point, and I wonder why nobody addressed the real point.
That's what I was trying to explain.
People may or may not be *over*-sensitive but it's not the first time this happens to you (and to few others as consistently I might add). I think you'd have a better chance to get your actual points discussed if you took that sensitivity into account.
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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by ac on Sunday 14/Aug/2005, @07:33
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> Look AC, I am tired of this game.
And I'm tired of some stupid incompetent cantankerous old wanker who does not understand the free software culture, does not understand the open source culture, does not understand what drives KDE developers, does not understand how free software is written and released generally attempting to stick his oar in and making a mess of things.
If you can't understand how you've offended some people then there is nothing more to say, you are a completely lost cause.
Free speech allows you to say what you want. It does not force others to listen to what you are saying. Since I don't want to listen to the same old bollocks that you've been spouting on kde-devel for ages I'm kindly requesting that you go and find another project to troll.
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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by cm on Sunday 14/Aug/2005, @07:53
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Admin, this post crossed a line I don't like to see crossed on the dot or anywhere in KDE.
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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by James Richard Tyrer on Sunday 14/Aug/2005, @08:44
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Free speech is a mutual understanding where everyone is allowed their say without being shouted down by people making personal attacks.
And it goes without saying that what I really don't undersand is people like you (AC). Perhaps it is wrong to allow people to post that don't provide an e-mail address.
Too bad that I was shouted down and, therefore didn't have the opportunity to discuss what I thought was an important issue. Now, this has gotten way off topic and way out of hand so I will not discuss it any further. I believe that I have already apologized to anyone that I inadvertently offended so there is really nothing more to say unless someone wants to actually discuss the issue raised in manyoso's posting.
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Re: A HUGE job indeed.
by Dave on Monday 15/Aug/2005, @20:13
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"And I'm tired of some stupid incompetent cantankerous old wanker who does not understand the free software culture, does not understand the open source culture, does not understand what drives KDE developers"
No wonder you fucking losers are laughed at when you start spewing drivel like "free software culture", "does not understand the open source culture". You fucking retards don't speak for anybody except for your demented selfs. Do yourself a favor and get professional help.
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