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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by cw on Monday 08/May/2006, @11:22
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It's not news. It doesn't say when, doesn't say how many and doesn't say what for. It's just a diplomatic way of saying 'no, or at least not unless we change our minds'.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by fire............. on Monday 08/May/2006, @11:33
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cw, are you just here to downplay every positive kde post or news? it really seems that you're not very pro kde for some reason especially on the *buntu side of things.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by J.B. on Monday 08/May/2006, @11:43
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I think he's just being sceptical. And I agree with him, we need some real facts and not marketing speeches.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by cw on Monday 08/May/2006, @12:27
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No, as a matter of fact I'm here looking for positive news. Really. And I'm glad when I find them, and usually don't complain when I don't.
However I did get a little carried away over this Ubuntu demagogy. This is not because I have something against Ubuntu, but it came on a bad background: I've been planning to do a system upgrade and researching for a good KDE distro, and this is what I found:
- SUSE's focus on KDE is vanishing (although it still employs some 12 developers and it wouldn't be fair not to notice this). Prefers Mono for business reasons and this hurts both KDE (which I want) and Java (which I still need)
- Mandriva no longer Mandrake, although it seems to employ a very dedicated developer. Tends to get obsolete and I unfortunately tend to be a bit of a freak when it comes to new software releases, especially KDE
- Linspire replaces perfectly good apps with alternatives of its own, just because it can. And for some (manipulative) reasons Click'n'Run doesn't call apps their names (at least it calls K3B 'CD Burner')
- a while ago I dropped Mepis for obsolescence and lack of configuration tools. I'll give the Kubuntu-based one a try, and actually this is my best hope for now :-(
- Yoper? I don't understand what's happening there. Does anyone?
- PC BSD didn't work when I tried it out. Might try the stable release, but since I need it on a laptop it's highly unlikely to work.
- I'll also give PCLinuxOS a try again, last time it was horribly unstable
- Kubuntu broken, neglected by its wider community, really a second-rate citizen apparently only meant to promote its bigger brother, pretending to be 'the KDE desktop' yet having to worry about whether it will be able to ship the new KDE release (because the Kubuntu release schedule actually depends upon a desktop environment that it doesn't even ship!)
Which means there's no good KDE distro left. And under these circumstances, it's considered big news that several months after saying 'first rate citizen', a distribution that wasn't even meant to ship KDE says 'first rate citizen' again! Where is dignity in this?
DISCLAIMER: don't read this as 'against ubuntu' or 'against gnome' - it's not. Instead, read it as 'please stop making a fuss out of obscure demagogical speeches that don't even contain clear promises, let alone facts'.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by Abe on Monday 08/May/2006, @12:54
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Your ought to try Kanotix.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by Anonymous on Monday 08/May/2006, @13:19
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Well although I'm someone quite optimistic, I must agree with cw conclusion. I was waiting a lot from this famous linuxtag meeting and what I see right now really looks like marketing fuss. Apart from the Paris invitation I don't see anything concrete coming out of this meeting.
Kubuntu is (was ?) a big hope for all KDE people, a distribution really oriented towards KDE. But for the moment I'm really asking myself where it's heading ...
One more thing : from what I read in the last months news on the Dot, nearly each time a KDE booth was installed, Kubuntu CDs were given, which means Kubuntu is seen by most people (in the KDE sphere) as the KDE-oriented distribution of reference and is used to show real KDE possibilities. So shouldn't KDE developpers help more Kubuntu ones (well, one in fact :p ) polishing the distro (bugs, integration, ...) ? (open question)
PS : I'm also considering installing a new KDE-oriented distribution. I'm particularly considering OpenSuse and Kubuntu. Any other suggestion ?
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by ac on Monday 08/May/2006, @13:30
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Look into Ark Linux ( http://ArkLinux.org ) -- it is 100% KDE-centric and always up to date.
"SUSE's focus on KDE is vanishing. Prefers Mono for business reasons"
The Mono implementation of .NET sucks big time, and Novell is setting itself up to be crushed by a lawsuit from Micro$oft. Novell would be much better off taking Google's example and betting on Python and KDE. PyKDE is already supported commercially, is used to build real-world tools (ie. Guidance), and is used in universities to teach object-oriented programming.
Part of the reason why the Ubuntu developer base is so biased toward gnome is that gnomers like Jeff Waugh post to planet.gnome.org whenever there is a job opening at Ubuntu (http://perkypants.org/blog/2006/03/06/jobs-at-canonical/). KDE devs should also inform each other about employment opportunities by blogging and sending emails to KDE developer lists ( https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel ).
KDE is technically years ahead of gnome, but KDE devs don't publicize their work as much. KDE devs: BLOG about *every* improvement you make, and feed your blog to http://Planet.KDE.org .
Follow this rule: No svn commit without a blog! (ok, I'm exaggerating, but you get the point :-)
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by Anonymous on Tuesday 09/May/2006, @06:00
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> I was waiting a lot from this famous linuxtag meeting and what I see right now really looks like marketing fuss. Apart from the Paris invitation I don't see anything concrete coming out of this meeting.
You only hear now what was said in the public meeting. Stay patient to see the actions of what was agreed on in the second non-public meeting.
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Have you USED kubuntu dapper lately?
by Humberto Massa on Tuesday 16/May/2006, @05:57
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I have it installed in a normally-non-supported laptop (PCChips A530), in my home desktop, and in my work desktop. The KDE thing is first-class -- I agree that breezy wasn't, but dapper is promising to be a really good release.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by Aaron J. Seigo on Monday 08/May/2006, @13:28
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> Kubuntu broken, neglected by its wider community
i personally run both kubuntu and suse. i have run other distros in the past on my desktop (including mandrake and red hat). with that background my personal take on kubuntu is this: the first release of kubuntu wasn't stellar, but it was promising. breezy was good enough to use, though it certainly had room to grow and lots of polish yet remained to do. when you have limited resources, that's to be expected. the real test is what happens on the next release.
i'm running dapper right now on my laptop and it's a -huge- improvement on the already passable breezy. the time and effort being put into it is pretty obvious release-over-release. the kubuntu channel on irc grows, the number of people i know using it and even working on kubuntu itself grows ......
so i'm not sure if your characterization is accurate. perhaps you got this impression from the start of the kubuntu project, but i think the kubuntu team really proved this possibility false with their consistent and continued efforts (kudos to them)
btw, i too was healthily skeptical of ubuntu when it started out. breaking into the distro game is really hard. i was hopeful but quietly skeptical of kubuntu when it started, too. but it's really hard to make final judgements on such projects that aren't obviously flawed in some way until they've had a couple years under their belt. perhaps you, like me, fall into the more conservative crowd when it comes to "new and improved" distros ;)
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by vexorian on Monday 08/May/2006, @14:14
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<p>I am running kubuntu 5.10 and have to say that it is working really well. And KDE is going really well right here. That makes me skeptical about the conclusion that ubuntu is not KDE friendly.</p>
<p>It just got gnome as default desktop. If you download Kubuntu's package from Ubuntu you can install fully working KDE and then upgrade it</p>
<p>It was not hard for me a new user in the linux world to get into Kubuntu</p>
<p>And there are Stand alone Kubuntu CDs that have ubuntu's installer but that defaults to KDE instead of gnome. When Dapper gets into stable I am gonna download Kubuntu directly</p>
<p>Only issues I had with Kubuntu are the default appearance it got. I find kubuntu's splash screen hideous and had to replace it with KDE's I also had to modiffy a lot of things about the colors</p>
<p><i>. Starting with Dapper Drake, the next release of Kubuntu to be released at the beginning of June, Canonical will ship CD sets of Kubuntu in the same manner as it did with Ubuntu in the past. Artwork of the CD sets was shown to the attendants of the meeting.</i></p>
I personally think this is a great step forward.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by cw on Monday 08/May/2006, @14:52
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> I am running kubuntu 5.10 and have to say that it is working really well.
> And KDE is going really well right here. That makes me skeptical about
> the conclusion that ubuntu is not KDE friendly.
The conclusion is that KDE is not currently a priority for Ubuntu, that Kubuntu is treated as 'nice to have' which is not 'first-class citizenship', and that nothing specifical has been said regarding how this problem will be fixed and whether it will be fixed.
If you're in doubt, take a look at this:
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs?show=all
Ten specifications are tagged 'essential', almost all Gnome specific, neither KDE specific. Even DapperReleaseProcess is Gnome specific:
"This still allows plenty of time (three weeks) from the GNOME string freeze to ours."
"Links and cross-references: GNOME 2.13.x/2.14 release schedule"
Needless to say, Kubuntu happens to be following the same release schedule. So what exactly is the point in being enthusiastic about Kubuntu as a KDE distro, if it doesn't even adjust it's releases to KDE? Is it that it started to work rather well lately? Well, Suse for instance has already worked well for ages.
Or is it just an irrational fear of being left aside? In that case just stop hyping Ubuntu until it doesn't leave KDE aside. I don't say 'attack', I just say stop giving it gratuitous praise.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by javier on Tuesday 09/May/2006, @00:47
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Ubuntu choose gnome (probably, but not only) because they have a fixed release schedule. For them it was easy to adapt they own release schedule around gnome's. That's one huge point gnome has over kde: fixed release schedules. Please note that I prefere KDE over Gnome. Since KDE depends heavily on QT (which is a good thing) it's more difficult to them to make a fixed release schedule. KDE is like debian, they release when it's ready. my 2€
It's too late for dapper to make huge changes in kubuntu. We'll have to wait another release to see if cannonical and mark take KDE/Kubuntu more into account in their releases. Time will tell. AFAIK I'm using dapper on a daily basis. It's very stable/polished and with shipit support it will get kde/kubuntu closer to more people, which is a great thing.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by cw on Tuesday 09/May/2006, @04:55
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> KDE is like debian, they release when it's ready.
Actually they release when it's scheduled, and far more often than debian :-)
> It's too late for dapper to make huge changes in kubuntu.
> We'll have to wait another release to see if cannonical and mark take
> KDE/Kubuntu more into account in their releases.
Several months ago the same 'first-class citizen' story has been told, and it wasn't too late for dapper at that time.
My suspicion is that the only reason why kubuntu exists is not having to admit that kde is not supported. From a marketing point of view it's understandable, of course.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by Joe on Wednesday 24/May/2006, @13:16
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"That's one huge point gnome has over kde: fixed release schedules."
Huge point to you, friend, not me.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by Joergen Ramskov on Tuesday 09/May/2006, @03:51
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Ubuntu started out as a Gnome distribution. Kubuntu started out as an unofficial "add-on" to ubuntu not too long ago. It can hardly be a surprise that Ubuntu is still more focused on Gnome.
So far, KDE has been getting more and more attention for each release and that seems to continue. These things takes time.
I don't quite understand that you're so skeptical. I think Mark has done an extraordinary job so far. He's done nothing that makes me suspicious of his intentions in regards to KDE.
Ps. I personally use Kubuntu and have done so for quite some time and while it is certainly far from perfect, I still like it and I'll most likely continue to use it.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by superstoned on Tuesday 09/May/2006, @08:06
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Kubuntu might start to sync to KDE releases. not sure how they will do that, but they intend to have a look at making it possible...
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by cw on Monday 08/May/2006, @14:36
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> so i'm not sure if your characterization is accurate.
> perhaps you got this impression from the start of the kubuntu project
As a matter of fact yes. I was quite enthusiastic about the first release, until I got fed with everything crashing around me and dumped it. Then I looked at the second release especially in order to see Adept, and although it wasn't as bad as the first try I suddenly noticed that I'm not impressed at all, especially by Adept (at that stage, however I hope it got better in the meanwhile).
If you say so, then I'll have a look at Dapper (and also at Mepis, especially for girlfriend). I don't question the fact that it might actually be good in spite of being treated as a stepchild. But I do think it's irrational for KDE to make waves around a distro that turns it into the 'other DE available on the other CD-ROM that no one has really heard about'.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by reihal on Tuesday 09/May/2006, @00:18
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Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
"when you have limited resources, that's to be expected."
Mark Shuttleworth has limited resources? Yeah right.
He should put his money where his mouth is.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by illissius on Tuesday 09/May/2006, @08:28
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> He should put his money where his mouth is.
You seem to have missed TFA. It was reporting on a recent meeting of KDE and Kubuntu developers at LinuxTag, where Mark Shuttleworth pledged to do precisely that.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by Robert on Monday 08/May/2006, @14:08
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You might consider SimplyMEPIS. Okay, it's now based on Kubuntu, but since KDE is MEPIS's bread and butter, it'll definitely be treated as a first class citizen.
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Re: Encourage KDE developers to join Kubuntu!
by David on Monday 08/May/2006, @23:24
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Why not try arklinux then? They now have a livecd aswell.
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