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  Interview: Elizabeth Krumbach of LinuxChix
Interviews Posted by Wade Olson on Thursday 21/Sep/2006, @12:43
from the an-8086-started-it-all dept.
As women become more involved with open source communities, it's important that their voices be heard. The dot is beginning a new series of interviews with women who contribute to F/OSS. Our first interviewee is Elizabeth Krumbach, who is the coordinator for the Philadelphia area LinuxChix chapter. Read on to find out how she became involved with computers, why she likes to buy equipment online, and her advice for women contemplating involved in open source communities.

Please introduce yourself.

EK: My name is Elizabeth Krumbach, I've been using Linux since 2002. Currently I use Debian and Ubuntu on my systems, but have a great deal of experience with Red Hat and Gentoo. I have worked with Debian-Women and Ubuntu-Women in an effort to recruit more women into the F/OSS community. I coordinate the Philadelphia area Chapter of LinuxChix, the Montgomery County Linux Users Group and am a regular attendee at the Philadelphia Area Linux Users Group. I also write for O'Reilly's Linux Blog.

When did you first become interested in technology or computers?

EK: I've been interested in computers since the first PC came into our house in 1991; I was 10 years old. This PC was an old IBM 8086 that my uncle took out of his basement to give us. It was sort of a hobby of mine while I went through middle school and into high school, I'd save up money to buy computers to tinker with. But I never really got serious about it (or even considered computers as a career) until I got online when I was 17.

Did you have any friends or family as role models or mentors at that time?

EK: No. The combination of being a quiet kid and not taking my playing with computers seriously caused me never to encounter other people who might share my interests. It didn't matter to me at the time anyway.

Have you ever felt discouraged by others or frustrated by technical hobbies or interests?

EK: Not directly, but there has been plenty of less direct discouragement along the way, which I think can be more harmful.

Perhaps my first negative experience I was when I was shopping for the first new computer I was paying for on my own. The salesmen consistently spoke down to me, but not to some male I happened to be shopping with, one even tried to persuade me to buy a less powerful computer because I "really don't need that much RAM"! I lost track of how many times similar scenarios have happened since then, I still prefer shopping online almost exclusively for this reason.

The F/OSS community online has been the primary source of discouragement though. Many of the F/OSS forums out there are male-dominated, and women who get involved in this world are often not treated equally. It might not be direct insults or insults at all, but I know many women who have taken to using gender-neutral pseudonyms in order to dodge snide comments and marriage proposals that inevitably get directed their way when it's discovered they're a woman doing something technical.

To be fair, LinuxChix and Women groups within the F/OSS community online have been the primary source of encouragement. And it really is a small, vocal minority in most F/OSS communities that make things uncomfortable, I've met plenty of fantastic people through F/OSS who don't care at all what my gender is. My fiance is one of these people, he's been fantastic.

"Real Life" F/OSS gatherings can be tough at times too. For example, I don't like going down to the city alone, so I call up a male friend of mine who will drive me down to LUG meetings. When I first started going I got the impression that if I don't speak up during discussion with something smart and techie to say, or don't actively detach myself from this male friend, it's often assumed that I'm "just there as a girlfriend." Imagine having to prove yourself each time you go out to such an event just to get an equal standing with your fellow geeks: it's tiring.

These examples might seem trivial, but it adds up. I've heard the whole "just get over it and grow a thicker skin" speech a thousand times, but why would I spend my free time volunteering in a community where I don't feel comfortable? I don't feel we should have to change ourselves by "growing a thicker skin" so we can offer help.

In my case I did end up growing that thicker skin and toughing it out, but I know several women who gave up on working with computers and F/OSS entirely because they weren't willing to do this, I can sympathize.

How did you become more involved in F/OSS? How have you contributed to projects or communities?

EK: It came pretty naturally to me. I started using Linux, I started writing How-To articles on my own website when I figured new things out, and then one day I joined the IRC channel for some F/OSS software I was using. In that channel they were talking about needing some documentation re-written, I volunteered and made my first official contribution to a F/OSS project.

Since then, I've written documentation for other projects, done some Debian packaging, done some web development and wiki-based work for projects, and helped out extensively with IRC-based support for several F/OSS projects.

What is the goal of LinuxChix? What role do you play in the LinuxChix organization?

EK: The founder of LinuxChix, Deb Richardson, said she founded it for two reasons:

  • She "thought it would be fun."
  • " To give women who use Linux a comfortable environment in which to discuss the OS they love; to create a community that encourages and helps new users; to make others realize that the vocal minority does not necessarily represent the Linux community in general."

As for the goals, I believe LinuxChix has accomplished both these founding reasons and now LinuxChix is really what you make it to be. For me, finding the LinuxChix network of friendly, intelligent, and supportive women who shared my interests was transformational. I felt quite alone as a woman in F/OSS before I learned of LinuxChix, and suddenly that wasn't the case anymore. In addition to friends, I found mentors and people who I could look up to, and people who had shared experiences of discouragement and frustration working and volunteering in tech.

Currently I'm the coordinator for the Philadelphia area LinuxChix chapter.

What are your goals going forward with LinuxChix and F/OSS?

EK: In my chapter coordinator role for LinuxChix I've found my goals to be generally more social. It's just fun to get together with women who share my interests and to encourage other women who are interested in getting into Linux and/or furthering their knowledge.

As for F/OSS, I've been working with Ubuntu-Women these past few months to get more women interested in contributing to Ubuntu. I really hope that someday there won't be any sexism or "boys club" feel to get over in order to get involved with F/OSS, and that anyone who can offer help with anything will feel comfortable doing so and feel that their contribution is valued.

Do the computer hardware and software industries have issues due to programmers/developers being mostly male while consumers are more gender balanced?

EK: I'm not sure I'd go this far. There is a tendency among less developed software products to have a feel that's more geared toward developers than users, but I wouldn't say this was a gender problem.

I think some hardware manufacturers target certain things toward young men though, I remember the first 3D accelerated graphics card I got had a picture of a hot cartoony/digital woman with green hair on the box, but this is more of a marketing issue.

What advice do you have for girls interested in technology, computers, F/oSS?

EK: Hang in there, you're not alone.

And always remember that you're doing this because you enjoy it. If you encounter a community that is too hostile for you to contribute to either speak up to the proper project authorities or walk away. As much as I want to see more women contributing, I've found that it's better to admit defeat in one project than to get burnt out and walk away from all of it. There are projects out there that will value your contributions.

You might also want to join LinuxChix, we're a great bunch and have always been very supportive of each other.

What advice do you have for communities such as KDE about female participation and gender balance?

EK: Reach out to women specifically. I believe that by recruiting more women now we open ourselves to a future where women coming into these communities will notice and feel comfortable with becoming involved.

And work to value all contributions to F/OSS equally. There are more women working with Artwork, Translations and Documentation writing than Programming and Software Packaging, but often these skills are taken to not be "worth" as much. Although I don't believe people should contribute to F/OSS to be recognized, it is important to make it clear that work done in all areas of a project is important and valuable. After all, a big hurdle F/OSS has to overcome is becoming more user-friendly, and things like Artwork, Translations, and Documentation are important.



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Over 40 comments listed. Printing out index only.
Premature ending
by Col. Habbablab on Thursday 21/Sep/2006, @15:30
I think Elizabeth had more to say towards the end. ;)
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The article is incomplete!
by em on Thursday 21/Sep/2006, @15:33
The last sentence is truncated, even.

And for one whose stated goal is to reduce sexism, and who praises people who don't care what her own gender is, she seems to care about people's genders a lot herself: "Reach out to women specifically".
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Elizabeth Rocks
by Nintendud on Thursday 21/Sep/2006, @18:04
I was brought into the Linux world thanks to Elizabeth. She answered all my ignorant questions in the beginning, and is still there to support me if I ever need her help again.

I've heard about the hurdles women have to go through to become involved in OSS, but I never knew it was this bad! While programming and debugging are the meat and potatoes of OSS development, artwork is the cream on the cake. There's also an incredible need for documentation on numerous projects, since their documentation tends to be a few versions too old. Without documentation, how will Linux newbies help themselves?

Women are truly an invaluable resource to OSS. I think with the help of women, usability in Linux programs and window managers can reach a whole new level of simplicity and ease-of-use.
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indeed...
by Patcito on Thursday 21/Sep/2006, @20:01
...girls are really needed and don't forget the linux babes :)
http://images.google.com/images?q=linux%20babe
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Interview truncate
by martin ponce on Thursday 21/Sep/2006, @21:53
Sorry, but i feel as if the interview were truncate.
it seems incomplete. =(
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Gender-blind fiance
by David Fraser on Friday 22/Sep/2006, @00:15
> I've met plenty of fantastic people through F/OSS who don't care at all what my gender is. My fiance is one of these people, he's been fantastic.

I have a slight suspicion that he at least does care what gender you are :-)
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Woman make great contributions!
by Diederik on Friday 22/Sep/2006, @00:29
I just like to emphasize that woman make great contributions to the OSS community.

I see a the biggest difference in documentation or articles. Where most men get stuck in technical brabble womans manage to make articles pleasant to read, and more directed to the actual reader. Jes Halls' articles about "this week in SVN" or "what's new in KDE" are a prime example for this. They are sparkled with excitement, things that interest the end-user, and give you a warm and fuzzy fealing. So keep up the good work!
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Documentation and Artwork for women?
by TunaTom on Friday 22/Sep/2006, @03:28
What's that? More stupid prejudice?
I know a hell of a lot of women who are great coders and analysts.

So I really think it's counterproductive to request the ecological niche for women to be _restricted_ to painting and documentation.
These are typically so-called "softer" skills than coding and thus saying these are more approbriate for women is to equal women to be soft.

Which is not a fact but a prejudice.

While it is true that there needs to be fought for more room for women in F/OSS (and technique in general!), it would be even harder to get out of the artwork corner once they established it: The "soft"-prejudices that were exagerated by the choice of restricting to artwork, would have to be pulled down again.

So perhaps it's better to go straight for the *real* thing than taking an intermediate step via "artwork": fighting prejudice is hard enough, there's no need to help exagerating them before fighting them.
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Untitled
by josemanuel on Friday 22/Sep/2006, @10:37
> Perhaps my first negative experience I was when I was shopping for the first new computer I was paying for on my own. The salesmen consistently spoke down to me, but not to some male I happened to be shopping with, one even tried to persuade me to buy a less powerful computer because I "really don't need that much RAM"! I lost track of how many times similar scenarios have happened since then, I still prefer shopping online almost exclusively for this reason.

If you buy online almost exclusively just because the salesmen spoke down to you, wouldn't it be a little as if they had won? Also, how are they going to get used to women buying computers if you buy them online? How are we going to get used to women having opinions and expressing them if you hide under gender-neutral nicks?
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A interesting idea I read about once...
by Tyson on Friday 22/Sep/2006, @11:27
I remember reading somewhere that a professor in a gender issues class (or something like that) got his male students to go participate in an internet chatroom and then let it slip after a bit that they were female.

I understand what followed was quite an enlightening experience for a lot of folks and left them less than impressed with some members of their gender. Nothing like walking a mile in someone's shoes... : )
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Come on!
by Valk on Friday 22/Sep/2006, @11:36
The only diffrence between men and females is the fact that, while most men can easily work without being constantly supported, some women only think about the social issue. AKA "Why learn this and that if I am not admired and worshipped for it?" COME ON!
Yes, I am a girl, and I find this interview offending to women in general. From my experience with computers so far, I have not been once discriminated for my gender. Why? Because when I make a mistake, I want to learn. I don't start an hysterical cry if I don't know something and someone points that out in my face, but in stead, I try to learn it myself. Why would I need a community to constantly push me from behind, when I can walk myself? And all women can do so.The thing anyone should teach women is not to think like a woman!! When one learns something, it should be because of pure curiosity and desire to know, not social reasons!
Conclusion: if you are interested only in the social aspect of programming, regardless if you are a male or female, just quit it! Being a geek/programmer/hacker is a lonely world, and not everyone can do it. If you are interested only in the technical aspect, and you are good at it, your gender won't matter. And don't take advice from someone who does mostly just howto's and tech support.
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for women only ?
by martin ponce on Friday 22/Sep/2006, @23:31
I really sorry, i found this interview very sexist.

> There are more women working with Artwork, Translations and Documentation writing than Programming and Software Packaging, but often these skills are taken to not be "worth" as much.

By who these skills are not taken be "worth" ?

Take it simple, people search for what they perceive interesting,
and nobody says you, what is "worth and interesting" for you.
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gender bias all over the place
by arawn on Saturday 23/Sep/2006, @12:49
Most of the opinions I've ever read on the whole gender bias thing in ANY field seem to get bogged down in the question of whether or not the minority has to be specially treated in some way.

I'm a heterosexual man who was a nurse for 15 years. I can't tell you how many cross- shift reports I've sat though where the female nurses went on and on about their menstrual difficulties until one of them remembered I was there. She would say, "Oh, we shouldn't be talking about that, should we?" Then change topics to their fantastic new bra.

Gender bias happens on both sides of the fence and on both sides it's purely a display of personal disrespect to the minority person. Every example EK cited in her interview was somebody who didn't respect EK enough to step outside their own bubble of self importance to meet her in at least neutral territory, as it were.

My own fantasy about how to right this sort of wrong, be it involving women in the computer field, men in nursing or gays in the military, is that simple respect for another human being becomes universally accepted as the default mode of social operation.

Just think- "if everybody [involved with computers] would just" adopt personal respect as their modus operandi, we geeks could evolve the reputation of being, not only the smartest subculture on the planet, but also the most enlightened! From the sounds of some of the responses to this interview, we're well on the way already.
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Will you marry me?
by Nerd on Monday 25/Sep/2006, @15:14
Comn I don't want to be a virgin forever. :(
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