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Re: Will Dolphin be fixed?
by Thomas Zander on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @00:51
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Placing rename as a top-level function in the open/save dialog is mixing concepts and growing context menus while not providing anything extra, as troy showed you can still rename if you need to.
The thing is, while you are working in a file save dialog filesystem manipulation is not one of the things that is on the feature list for almost all cases. If you want to do filesystem manipulation, start your Dolphin to do so.
People that cry 'feature creep' or 'bloated' tend to point to the amount of features available in a given UI. Getting the amount of features right is a case of balance. And discussions we had over the last 2 years made us decide that the balance is kept by not providing filesystem operations in the file dialog itself.
Hope that explains it. |
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Re: Will Dolphin be fixed?
by Jono on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @02:28
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What if I want to save a file with a specific name, but a file with that name already exists that I want to keep? Or what if I have just created a new folder and want to change its name? Both of these circumstances are helped by the presence of a top level rename option. Yes, I could go via a Properties... dialogue, but they seem to be fundamental enough to the operation of saving files that it deserves its own entry.
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Re: Will Dolphin be fixed?
by superstoned on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @03:41
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You do have a point here, imho. I use the properties dialog for renaming, and just being able to use F2 or a click to rename a file would make sense. Having to start konqueror/dolphin, go to the location in the filedialog, just to rename a file - not really efficient. Besides, you can create new folders, why not rename a file?
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Re: Will Dolphin be fixed?
by Leo S on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @11:18
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Like I already posted, your aversion to the Properties option is purely psychological. It is the same speed as a dedicated rename action. Think about the actions involved. Try it.
Click to rename is a horrible feature in windows. Ever watch a newbie trying to double click? Half the time they rename by accident.
F2 would be nice to have though.
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Re: Will Dolphin be fixed?
by Vlad on Friday 23/Mar/2007, @07:30
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The problem with the Properties dialog is that it is not obvious that you should open it if you want to rename a file. It already occurred that I wanted to change a filename in a dialog and then it did not pass my mind to have a look in the Properties dialog for that feature (by the way, thanks for pointing it out).
I agree that click to rename is a horrible feature. Failing to double click properly is something that happens all the time to me, and I am double clicking already for more than ten years. No need to say that I hate double clicking and programs that force me to double click.
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Re: Will Dolphin be fixed?
by John Tapsell on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @02:49
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Was it the usability experts that said to remove these features? Or was it something random that you decided?
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SCREW the simplicity attitude! Go for EFFICIENCY!
by eMPee on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @03:21
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Well, I always thought KDE was the UNIX desktop from the professionals for the professionals, and we very much expect filesystem manipulation from the file dialogs. Heck, even Windows has it, screw the 'rather not confuse the user mentality'. I love KDE because it lets you do things the way you expect them to work, and I and many others (http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2007/03/file-dialogs.html) do expect a renaming in the file dialogs to work. Troy's workaround is just that, an inefficient glitch and not the solution.
All people on the KDE team please note: do not sacrifice any power features for an assumed 'ease of use' for the masses, many avid KDE users who promoted it for years are very pissed off by moves like this. I for one am, and Aaron 'knight of ui' himself has first induced this feeling by acting like a gnome robot on this: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96570
Quotation from the first link:
"I always found that feature useful if you wanted to save a file as the same name as something existing, but wanted that old file to be backed up. Perhaps some KDE developers have been spending too much time with GNOME/GTK devs.
Speaking of which, I've been previewing some stuff for KDE 4. Now while I have no idea what the final product would look like, some changes as they currently stand are a bit disturbing.[...]
I don't know why KDE devs are adopting stupid GNOME ideas, or taking a step backwards to design mistakes and oddities from Windows, but I sure hope someone knocks some sense into them soon.
[...]
The copying of stupidity is uncanny. It seems they removed features and changed defaults to make it resemble GTK more, for some absurd reason.
[...]
I don't know what's becoming of KDE and Trolltech these days, they seem to be taking the bad from GTK/GNOME and throwing away their own good technology.
[...]
I can't even begin to describe what a major step backwards it is. What happened to the sanity? Where's the intelligence? Where's all the good stuff? Why am I looking at garbage from a lesser API, in the best cross platform one available?!?"
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Re: SCREW the simplicity attitude! Go for EFFICIENCY!
by Troy Unrau on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @05:29
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Chill :)
We have no plans to remove any features from the file dialogs.
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Re: SCREW the simplicity attitude! Go for EFFICIENCY!
by eMPee on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @09:03
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cant chill right now have a very important exam tomorrow X==P
anyways what i said not only applies to file dialogs but everything in kde, that's why i quoted out of context ;)
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Re: SCREW the simplicity attitude! Go for EFFICIENCY!
by Debian User on Thursday 22/Mar/2007, @16:25
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You know, KDE4 is not even Alpha yet. For these detail levels, a review is not yet appropriate, I believe. Arguing about what's not yet there is NOT the point of the previews.
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Re: SCREW the simplicity attitude! Go for EFFICIENCY!
by MamiyaOtaru on Sunday 25/Mar/2007, @15:44
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Yes it is. Better to talk about stuff now than when things are set in stone. Reminds me of the Deus Ex 2 dev cycle. There was stuff I didn't like and said so, and people told me to chill, it wasn't done yet. When the demo came out, the same stuff was there and I expressed my dislike and (other) people said "I didn't hear you complain about that (loss of) feature when it was talked about before the demo." Thing is, by then it was too late.
KDE4 is looking more and more like Deus Ex 2, with stuff being cut out and people saying not to knock an alpha. Yeah, like any changes people might like will magically happen before final when development up to this point indicates strongly that they won't. I'm just ignoring Dolphin for now as it just gets me too worked up. I'd rather not ignore KDE4, but I suppose I should do that too.
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Re: SCREW the simplicity attitude! Go for EFFICIEN
by Richard Van Den Boom on Friday 23/Mar/2007, @02:44
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I admire your dedication to calm thigs down. :-D
One thing I'd like to point out : it seems to me that every feature that's in KDE is there because some user at some point requested it and because many users actually like it. That's open source after all.
So when you decide that any type of feature is not right because it's not consistent with a "concept" (OK, I know that no change is planned, I speak in general ;-)), you'll sure to piss off many users.
So it really seems to me that any change that may impact the way people work should be pondered and not really discarded just because of "concepts". There are already a lot of desktops with "concepts" and this usually means you like them or not because you digg in their concepts or not.
I think that a lot of people liked KDE because the whole concept seemed to be : "Do as you like it". So when there is a feeling that a way of working, considered the best for unclear reasons that look more like personal likings than argumented and statically supported choice, is forced down the users, it is not surprising to see uproars.
Of course, many posts are too harsh or make too many asumptions (mine included), but when a real uproar occurs, it should be taken seriously, I think.
Anyway, I still like to thank all the KDE developpers for their involvement in this projet, I'm sure that in the end, the whole thing will be great. I just hope there won't be too much friction in the process.
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