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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Diederik van der Boor on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @00:27
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> then again, i'm not sure why krita wouldn't fit that bill pretty well?
For the same reason I don't open want to open Digicam to just copy pictures from my camera to /mnt/data-dump/pictures/ I just want to get the job done, not open a fully fledged painting application. Following your logic, KSnapshot can be removed too in favor of krita, but this doesn't make sense to me either.
IMHO, it's newbie friendly to have a simple wizard with (1) scan preview > (2) select bounds, rotate > (3) scan > (4) save as, send by e-mail or post to flickr. Windows XP has a nice type of application for this, and it seams to be used a lot because it's simple.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Aaron J. Seigo on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @10:37
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for everyone commenting about how badly this is needed, please read the whole thread.
note that i first say that a little scanner shell would be cool. then i say that we have something good enough for now. put the two together and you get:
it would be nice to have a little scanner shell, but we are ok for now even if we don't.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Achim Bohnet on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @17:13
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All your required functionalities (and much more) are already
available as kipi-plugins (and therefore in gwenview
showimg, kphotoalbum, digikam and ksquirrelmail)
As gwenview will be part of KDE4 maybe an new option
gwenview --plugins scan
that start the plugin on gwenview startup ,wrapped in
a scan-images.desktop is all you want ;)
Achim
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by whatever noticed on Tuesday 19/Jun/2007, @10:31
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~> gwenview
QGDict::hashAsciiKey: Invalid null key
KCrash: Application 'gwenview' crashing...
~> gwenview
libkscan: WARNING: Trying to copy a not healthy option (no name nor desc)
libkscan: WARNING: Trying to copy a not healthy option (no name nor desc)
KCrash: Application 'gwenview' crashing...
Still needs some work i guess :o)
If it is reproducable, i'll post a bug report about it
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Martin Koller on Friday 22/Jun/2007, @04:21
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For all who are not aware of it:
I recently added support for scanning into kolourpaint (in KDE3 and KDE4 of it)
kolourpaint is a nice, compact application which every normal user should be able to deal with.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by MamiyaOtaru on Thursday 28/Jun/2007, @22:39
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It is a nice app, but it isn't a scanning app. It's a doodling app, and not the first place someone will look for to scan something, and it contains a lot of functionality unneeded by someone who wants to scan something.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's nice that kolourpaint can scan, but it's hardly a replacement for a simple scanning app. For all the talk of making things easier and simpler for newbies, lumping functionality many people consider unrelated into now larger and more complex apps is precisely what one doesn't want to do.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Schalken on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @00:29
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Well maybe you don't want to open a large and powerful graphics application just to scan a picture. I would rather open up digiKam, since it has the basic functions you're likely to do on the image before you save it, i.e. rotate, crop, fix colours, but not do complex painting.
On the topic of scanning, any word on a KDE4 frontend for performing OCR? I hear tesseract-OCR is a fantastic library.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by MamiyaOtaru on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @02:05
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Wonderful. In the same way Windows users open up Photoshop to scan things. That's the first place I'd look.
Luckily everyone has koffice (with krita) installed instead of OOo and Gimp.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by matte on Thursday 21/Jun/2007, @01:19
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That's *****!
Almost nobody uses Koffice cause it's barely compatible with ODF and not
compatible at all with MS files (and most of us need to communicate even with
non-linux users). Krita sadly isn't still 50% as useful as gimp.
So most (90%?) people uses OOo and gimp, and will continue to.
These apps are not really mature, and you know. Givin
scanning functionality only to Koffice users will not force users to use
koffice, most of them will just move to other scanning solution,
or will to others DE if they badly need integration.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by whatever noticed on Friday 22/Jun/2007, @16:02
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>>So most (90%?) people uses OOo and gimp, and will continue to.
You can also scan images with OOo and Gimp.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by MamiyaOtaru on Thursday 28/Jun/2007, @22:51
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I'd heard there were still a few people around who had no concept of sarcasm. What a wonderful sighting this has been.. like visiting primitive tribes in the rainforest. Thank you for this.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by MK on Friday 29/Jun/2007, @03:24
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Text messages are not an ideal medium for transporting sarcasm and/or irony.
There are two reasons why sarcasm messages can fail: the reader and the writer...
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by whatever noticed on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @04:12
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>then again, i'm not sure why krita wouldn't fit that bill pretty well?
Krita isn't a scanning application, and it is not part of KDE itself.
Novice users that just want to scan a document will be looking for a scanning application, not for an image editor to do the job.
A simplified digikam could do the job, as it has the necessary abilities to order scanned images and editing features to scale, crop and rotate images and to change the file format.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Adrian Baugh on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @09:46
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I'd be very keen to see good scanning functionality built into digikam anyway - not all my photos are taken using a digital camera and it would be nice to be able to scan slides / negs / prints and bring them straight into my digikam workflow.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Achim Bohnet on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @17:06
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install kipi-plugins and you'll find in digikam:
Album -> import -> scan images
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by David Joyce on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @04:27
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I agree with the others on this one - having a separate scanning application is immensely preferable. Kooka has served KDE very well for a number of years, and I have found it particarly useful. Inserting scanning into an application such as Krita makes a simple task rather complicated for a number of users. This seems especially to go against the grain of the Unix philosophy of providing simple utilities, and also decisions such as to separate off file management into Dolphin. Please retain Kooka!
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Diederik van der Boor on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @04:35
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> Please retain Kooka!
I'd go for a alternative with much more friendly UI... (the wizard I described somewhere above). for the remaining, you've complemented the other arguments nicely.. :-)
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Boudewijn on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @10:01
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Actually, I don't use Krita to scan images myself. I haven't even tried it -- not even now that I have a scanner again. I actually had forgotten that Krita was supposed to be capable of directly scanning images in. And I'm the maintainer... But I tried Kooka and went to using XSane myself, because it does 16 bits. I'm not sure whether libkscan supports 16 (or rather 12) bits per channel at all.
But it should be easy enough to write a standalone scan application using libkscan -- you can probably do it yourself, in Python or Ruby or C++.
There's just one thing I'm certain of: nobody actually working on KDE4 has time to start or restart a dedicated scanning application. Kooka has been seriously unmaintained for ages. So -- if you want a scanning application, if you think it's important that there is a scanning application, then you need to act. Stop pleading. Stop hoping. Follow the instructions on techbase and start a development environment. Start developing. Become a widely-admired hero!
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Aaron J. Seigo on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @10:36
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> I'm not sure whether libkscan supports
... i'd be surprised if it doesn't as it uses sane, so should follow what xsane can do.
> nobody actually working on KDE4 has time to start or restart
which is exactly what i was thinking when suggesting krita is good enough for now. due to having ways to scan there's no big impending doom cloud hanging above if there isn't a little scanner shell in 4.0.
> Kooka has been seriously unmaintained for ages.
it would need a pretty big rethink/rewrite in any case as the UI really needs to be completely rethought. given that most of the logic (except the ocr stuff) is in libkscan, it makes the choice even more obvious.
> Start developing. Become a widely-admired hero!
indeed.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by forrest on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @14:26
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<i>it would need a pretty big rethink/rewrite in any case as the UI really needs to be completely rethought.</i>
I'll second that :)
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by ac on Monday 18/Jun/2007, @15:41
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<i>I'll second that :)</i>
<p>Could you please elaborate? What do you not like about the current user interface, and what ideas do you have to make it better? It would be great if we could collect some ideas here, so that the soon-to-be-widely-admired hero knows what to do...
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by whatever noticed on Tuesday 19/Jun/2007, @03:45
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my main problem with the current interface is that you can close the views in the main screen, but cant get them back in the same fashion.
Most novice users i work with come to me with an empty kooka screen and the only way to restore it to its default layout is by removing ~/.kde/share/config/kookarc.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Aaron Seigo on Tuesday 19/Jun/2007, @09:34
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more than anything else, keep it simple. it doesn't need docks, it doesn't need galleries, it doesn't need a separate image viewer space ... simplicity. if the user wants all of those things, they can use gweview or krita. preview, crop/select, rotate and save: that's all that's needed.
second, do it fast. there were a number of things kooka tried to automate or handle "smartly" that made the app a bit slow.
third, don't try and manage the image results automagically. kooka tried quite bravely to keep automated galleries around. imho the scanner app should treat the scans as documents (think kate, kwrite, kword, etc) and not try and auomatically mange them.
that's just mho though, and to be fair i've used kooka for years and have got a lot of utility out of it. so it's a good app. but we can probably do even better by learning from it.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by MamiyaOtaru on Thursday 28/Jun/2007, @22:50
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OK, I'll happily admit this is better than whining about kooka disappearing. If a better scanning app comes out of this it's a win.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Odysseus on Tuesday 19/Jun/2007, @11:56
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We've been over this ground a few times now, haven't we??? :-)
>> I'm not sure whether libkscan supports
>... i'd be surprised if it doesn't as it uses sane, so should follow what
> xsane can do.
Having trawled through libkscan in the past, I can say there's a lot of stubs in there where the author intended to support all the features in SANE, but didn't in the end. It's also very messy. I'm of the opinion that libkscan needs a full re-write for the post-Solid & Windows/Mac world that finally does support all my scanners features :-) I have some code that speaks to my scanner OK, but I'm a bit like the artilleryman in War of the Worlds...
Everything else is a +1 from me. Kooka tries to do too much, we already have great image management apps. Instead its widely agreed that a beefed up libkscan in kdegraphics and a couple of new smaller apps outside libs is the way to go.
John.
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by David Joyce on Tuesday 19/Jun/2007, @14:04
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Aaron & Boudewijn,
Start developing - perhaps this is an invite I can't resist. With the amount of spare time I have, it will have be a _slow_ process!
I'll try and get in touch with you to see what I can do. The UI suggestions posted seem very sensible - I've always thought the gallery pane, and that sort of stuff, added undue complexity to the whole scanning process.
- David
ps. best leave the hero bit out, I think... :-)
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Re: "Kooka and kmrml are removed completely."
by Boudewijn Rempt on Wednesday 20/Jun/2007, @00:14
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Sure. Feel free to contact me, either by email or on #koffice.
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