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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Bernhard on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @04:07
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afaik they've disagreed with nuno's vision for the panel. They are aiming for the panel they've got at the moment and just improve the style a bit and add the remaining features (the features from KDE3).
I really hope they get a good panel soon because the one they've got at the moment is just ugly (imo)
Further I hope I'll get my KDE4 pc ready early to help developing KDE (Debian). But I have some problems with starting the applications (I've compiled kdesupport, kdelibs, kdebase and kdegames), but I can't start any of the apps (I've followed the tutorial from techbase). I hope somebody knows what's going wrong here (he can't open the display (I've already tried to export the Display variable)
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by jospoortvliet on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @04:44
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You might try xinit:
xinit startkde -- :1
Will start a KDE desktop in a new screen (ctrl-alt-F8).
If you want to run KDE 4 applications from within your KDE 3, I've done the following:
Install KDE 4 as user 'kde4', including all .bashrc settings of course.
Use 'sux - kde4' to go to the kde4 user from within konsole in KDE 3 and then just start applications...
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by LordBernhard on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @05:03
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first thx for the answer! it hasn't worked out completely but it's a first step.
Here my situation:
I'v got a seperate user (kde-devel), I've edited the .bashrc like stated on techbase. With the sux - kde-devel command I can start kde4 programs (but some programs report errors (e.g. ksysguard (no localhost found)). (if that's important: atm I'm running a gnome session because I didn't want to mix up KDE3 and KDE4 environment so I simply didn't install KDE3 (a fresh debian system)
And I still don't know how to start a seperate X- Session because xinit startkde -- :1 gives me an error that I haven't got the permissions to do that -.-
And I can't start it as root because that he dosn't find the paths.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Tom Vollerthun on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @06:02
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You could try to start a new session using sudo - that would give you all the permissions while retaining the paths.
I prefer to use the xephyr-based solution that is described in the wiki as well - that won't let you use composite (afaik), but won't crash your other session if kwin b0rks while switching the sessions (yes, that used to be a known bug). That way I can check if it's already stable enough to be run in a "real" session while keeping me save and warm.
Oh, and to get rid of the remainings of any old build you may have installed, you should run rm -rf ~/.kde4/ every now and then.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Sutoka on Thursday 01/Nov/2007, @10:22
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Xephyr supports composite, and I believe newer versions support using Indirect GLX (instead of doing it entirely in software).
You might need to do +extension composite to get it to work (I don't remember the exact command I used yesterday, but I did have kompmgr (KDE3's old xcompmgr style composite manager) running in it perfectly fine.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Anon on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @06:49
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You don't mention running the
xhost +local:kde-devel
command. Run it as a user who is able to startx e.g. your usual user.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Kompo on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @04:57
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I would like to see some external Plasmoid which will implement Nuno's vision ;]
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Johann Ollivier-Lapeyre on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @08:32
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"afaik they've disagreed with nuno's vision for the panel."
If we ask people (i mean users...) to choose between the nuno vision and the ugly actual one, the result should be simple and clear... So, how the disgusting current one can be keept? Who is "they"? (just to know).
Nuno Pinhero developped very innovative and fresh vision for KDE4 (panel, kick ass tabs design http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/new%20style%20tabs.png , kwin buttons, tables...) and i'm really sad to see these ideas are not here anymore... I tought at first it was just a work in progress issue, but it seems we finaly are going to have an ugly panel, and a conservative look... and not because we are missing talented artists.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by André on Thursday 01/Nov/2007, @03:50
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He who codes, decides. It's that simple. If you don't agree with what's being done, start coding yourself and you can the direction the project is taking.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Johann Ollivier-Lapeyre on Thursday 01/Nov/2007, @15:02
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"He who codes, decides. It's that simple."
And the artist who do the artwork must just shup ut? and the guy specialized in usability must shut up too? Just because they have to be developpers to be listened? Stupid and explain very well why many OSS projets are ugly and un-usuable like 80's softwares...
Hopefully, KDE coders i worked with [kopete, kdegames..] doesn't have a such giant ego, and this is more the "who know and do the work, decides" rules, in each area, everyone respecting the other's work and expertise.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Leo S on Friday 02/Nov/2007, @10:39
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>> And the artist who do the artwork must just shup ut? and the guy specialized in usability must shut up too? Just because they have to be developpers to be listened?
No, but in the end it comes down to who is doing the work. It has nothing to do with not respecting non-developers, but when push comes to shove, a mockup is no use to end users. It requires a developer to put in a hell of a lot of time to implement that mockup (don't get me started on how mockups always cherry pick their displayed content to make it look good).
Mockups are great, and there are a ton of them, but implementation is much harder, and without implementation there is nothing.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Grósz Dániel on Friday 02/Nov/2007, @12:30
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"Stupid and explain very well why many OSS projets are ugly and un-usuable like 80's software"
But does not explain why is _every_ X window manager I have ever tried more usable than Windows GUI. :-)
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Aaron J. Seigo on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @08:50
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"afaik they've disagreed with nuno's vision for the panel"
this just keeps cropping up everywhere, doesn't it?
what we're not going to be doing is putting the panel in the center of the screen with the launcher interface button (e.g. kickoff/kmenu/lancelot/whatever) in the middle of that.
the look is a completely different issue and no we won't be keeping the look of the current panel. it's ... ugly. and we all know that. it was a quick hack to get a panel there to get the rest of the stuff needed for proper panels in place.
and yes, if you don't like what we come up with you can always write your own Containment plugins.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Johann Ollivier-Lapeyre on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @09:28
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"the look is a completely different issue and no we won't be keeping the look of the current panel. it's ... ugly."
Happy to read that from you. I admit i started to be afraid reading this post ;)
"what we're not going to be doing is putting the panel in the center of the screen with the launcher interface button (e.g. kickoff/kmenu/lancelot/whatever) in the middle of that."
I'm not talking about 4.0 (time...), but with the "Plasma power", this idea, not perfect for now, could be experimented and matured... don't you think?
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Chani on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @10:05
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if you want to experiment with it, write your own containment.
isn't that the point of plasma? :) everyone has the chance to make their own stuff and play with it. which things end up being the defaults depends on what actually ends up being usable.
or, y'know, you could help make the existing panel suck less for 4.0... whatever.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Johann Ollivier-Lapeyre on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @13:18
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"isn't that the point of plasma? :)"
In part yes, this is why Plasma is a great piece of software :D
"which things end up being the defaults depends on what actually ends up being usable."
Yes, but it depend also of leaders's view like Aaron, even if at end it is usable. If for him, this is a big "never in the center", this could just be a waste of time. Hopefuly, he is not like that, as i know, so i'm confident to have great defaults which fit the users's need.
Anyway, it seems after some talk on IRC there are already some guys working to "make the existing panel suck less for 4.0", so i prefer to continue to make the games suck less ;)
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by david on Thursday 01/Nov/2007, @07:15
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"what we're not going to be doing is putting the panel in the center of the screen with the launcher interface button (e.g. kickoff/kmenu/lancelot/whatever) in the middle of that."
why not? the panel in the center is cool, the k-menu in the middle, don't know...
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Deucalion on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @04:35
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Looks very much like yet-another-CDE-Imitation to me… *sigh*
Definitely not something I'd like as the default look.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Adrian Baugh on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @04:53
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That looks very cool. Even if it isn't supplied as default someone should code it (plasma is supposed to be very easy to code, right?) and make it available as a replacement. If it's liked by enough people I expect the distributions will package it up.
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Re: Damn, still that ugly taskbar!
by Bobby on Wednesday 31/Oct/2007, @15:06
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Nuno's panel looks really beautiful, I hope that something like that will be implemented instead of the present one.
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