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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Dan on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @15:06
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With all due respect (not that much but still) putting the minimize/maximize icons on the left would be really ugly and completely unexpected. Everyone who has ever used kde or windows is expecting the buttons to be on the right, moving them just to be different (because you can't convince me that its better usability to put them away from the close button) is, imo, not worth it at this point in time. There are much more pressing bikesheds to paint.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by phD student that should stop reading the dot on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @15:33
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I actually use the suggestion from aaron, and found it good.
I think it is a matter of personal taste, but it could make the default value for kde 4.0 as it is not that annoying. Keep in mind that Apple has all buttons at left, windows at right. So people switching still may have to change their habits, however the few people I know who have switched windows -> mac os had no problem.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by slougi on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @21:56
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Agreed, I was very skeptical at first, but after using the button arrangement Aaron suggested I must say it just works that much better.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Leo S on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @17:38
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It's not ugly, and it is excellent for mousing efficiency (since the minimize button in maximized apps is right in the corner of the screen). I've had this setup for years.
I agree it would be a bad idea as a default though. New users would complain that it's different than windows to no end.
However, I hope that the setting to allow moving of maximized windows is finally off by default in kwin. I don't know why it's on by default in kde 3, because it completely disregards fitts law and wastes screen space by putting a border around maximized apps. The window buttons are way harder to hit that way. Please turn this off by default if it isn't already.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by AC on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @18:09
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> New users would complain that it's different than windows to no end.
This is KDE 4. I think users expect novelty, and will accept this change because it is apparent that a dangerous button like Close should not be anywhere near the other buttons. I personally haven't heard of a single OS X user complaining that the buttons are on the left side. And in OS X's situation they really don't have a good excuse to make the change beside wanting to be different from Windows. In this proposal we actually have a valid reason for splitting the buttons up.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Velvet Elvis on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @20:44
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<blockquote>
I think users expect novelty
</blockquote>
Something can't be expected and novel at the same time.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Quintesse on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @22:46
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You're changing his words and you know it.
(Hint: he doesn't say "Users want expected novelty")
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by KOffice fan on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @06:44
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Mac OS has always had the close button on the left.
As did CDE and other early X-Window environments. And Windows 3.x
Actually, I think it was Windows 4.0 (aka Cairo, aka Win95) first introduced the close button on the right.
Since KDE has always had the close button on the right, though, I think it's good to leave it there, especially since this is the expected behaviour on most systems nowadays. It used to be configurable for people who want it on the left, and as long as the option is there, I'm fine with the current setup.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Gabriel Gazzán on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @09:06
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Don't forget about the beloved Amiga! :)
Workbench UI also had the "Close" button on the left, and "Minimize"/"Maximize" on the right side.
As well as all Mac OS versions prior to OS X, now that I remember.
It was THE standard window button layout these days. And it was a good one, I don't know exactly why it was changed.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by hias on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @14:36
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The problem with the "Close" button on the left is, that it is very near the menue and can accidently be clickt. I used this settings for a few months and after I accidently closed the app some times while I just wanted to access the menu I changed the "Close" button to the right and all other buttons to the left and since then I never accidently closed an app.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Tray on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @14:58
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> The problem with the "Close" button on the left is, that it is very near the menue
Under my proposal the menu (application icon) is moved to the center along with the title text. So the menu and the "Close" button are actually far apart.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by hias on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @15:07
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sorry, I'n not a native speaker. I didn't meant the menu icon but the menu toolbar with its menues like "File", "Edit" ...
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Reemi on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @02:23
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Dear all,
first of all, thank you to all of you. KDE rocks and I'm excited about KDE4. Please consider my comment below as an alternative opinion for the discussion.
I'm using windows in the office and have problems with changing environments. I'd prefer to have those functions that are executed without thinking consistent even over different OS.
I'm still trying to save/close notepad.exe with ZZ (yes, I'm a VIM freak)
I'm using ctrl-c ctrl-v in Linux instead of the middle mouse button for C&P.
I'm typing 'ls' instead of 'dir' and 'cp' instead of 'copy' when working in a command shell on windows.
Please, allow me to keep the minimize button in the same place, anything else will drive me creazy (I know, it is configurable, but most people will never know)
Reemi
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by e_arni on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @10:48
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i think that "put all the buttons in one corner thing" really came over us in 1995, and i think it is a bad idea. it neither makes the ui simpler, nor prettier nor more efficient, nor more aestethically pleasing. i am definitely for splitting them up.
just my oppinion
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by f00fbug on Thursday 13/Dec/2007, @17:02
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The default setup is intended to suit the needs of most users, who are used to the buttons on the right. Having the close button separated from the two others actually represents a move forward in usability, there's a bit of buffer space so that if you are 2 pixels to the right of the maximize button you won't accidentally close the window, and the majority of KDE users (new users coming from Windows, and previous users) won't have to get used to a complete change in position.
Secondly, if you do not like the default setup, KDE is and has always been fully configurable. It takes less than 5 minutes to go into the appearance dialog and drag your close button to the left side.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by mike on Sunday 16/Dec/2007, @09:03
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all in favour of forever ignoring Dan say "Aye"!
"With all due respect (not that much but still)"
how is that necessary?
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by bobo on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @16:08
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This can easily be changed in systemsettings, just tick 'use custom titlebar button positions' in Appearances->Windows->Buttons and drag out the two spacers. I suspect the distropackagers will adapt the default style to fix these issues for their users.
By the way can anyone else confirm that the embedded terminal in konqueror gives no prompt (unlike in kate where it works well)? I am using the RC2 packages of openSuse released today.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Ben on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @00:16
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Thanks for the info, now that I know you can edit it easy I'm happy for any crazy experiment the devs wish to do :)
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Freddie on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @16:10
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Isn't this still controlled by the window manager settings, the way it is in KDE3? In which case, each user can configure it the way they want it?
I manually insert a few spaces in there, for just that reason. Tried with them on the left, but didn't like it. The nice thing (at least in KDE3, haven't tried configuring things in KDE4 yet) is that each user can set this according to their preferences.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by fuegofoto on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @17:14
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I have been using the 'aaron' method for a few weeks now since the "try it before you dis it" argument came up and it's fine except that sometimes when you click for a menu you miss and your window goes where you don't want it (smaller or bigger). The one advantage of them being on the right is that you rarely have menu items under the buttons to the chance of missing your target doesn't result in the wrong action happening.
On a mac the window buttons are on the left but you also don't have the menu nearby usually either.
Your argument about the space between the close and max/restore button wasting space isn't a very strong one either unless you're on a really low res display where any button would be an issue. ;)
I think the biggest issue here comes from the inconsistency of closing windows. Sometimes clicking the close button quits the apps, sometimes it puts it to the sys tray, and sometimes it leaves a copy running but reset so it launches faster next time. Then there's duplication of the app 'Menu' and a title bar right click and also a 'Close' in both of those. Close should be just that, close the window but don't quit the app.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Leo S on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @17:44
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>> Close should be just that, close the window but don't quit the app.
I hate that behaviour on OS X. Sure it's more consistent, but for most apps it just doesn't make any sense. I don't want to keep my web browser running when no windows are open. There's no point to that. An app like Ktorrent is fundamentally different. 99% of the time it's running in the background, and making it keep on running when you close the window is fine.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Terracotta on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @02:11
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Sometimes it's nice to have a browser open in a systray like opera does, to stay logged on, all the time i.e.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by CAPSLOCK2000 on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @17:53
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I put my close button on the left side. This way I never accidently close a windows instead of mini/maximizing it. It takes a little while to get used to, but I'm completely happy with it.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by hias on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @14:41
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As I wrote above, I had this settings a few months and it happened that I closed the app while I just wanted to access the menu, therefore I think it is better to put the "Close" button on the right, because there is nothing near and all other buttons on the left, so the worst that could happen is that the window get mimimized/maximized.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Stephen on Tuesday 11/Dec/2007, @19:08
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I've removed the maximize and menu buttons
swapped the order of the minimize and close
and finally added a spacer in between the 2.
Why? I've never use the maximize I always double click the titlebar which I've set as maximize. I never use the menu button.
As for why I swapped the order, When you own an optical mouse and a cat.. you tend to realize quick how jumpy a cursor can be. Anytime I hair would get under the mouse it would ever-so-often jump to a corner of the screen.. a few of those times it would jump up into the upper right hand, right as I was clicking.. This would close the window. Swapping the order made it so the worst that would ever happen was it just minimized. The Space was added to avoid accidentally closing the window instead of minimizing.
I've now ran with this for over a year and I'll never go back. Absolutely love this setup.
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Rob on Wednesday 12/Dec/2007, @05:06
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What's all the fuss about, isn't this what KDE Personaliser is for?
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by Fred on Thursday 13/Dec/2007, @02:09
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What I really like about OSX is the titlebar-button to show/hide the menu/toolbar. Now that's a space saver!! How difficult would it be to introduce a button for menubar rollup/down and one for toolbar rollup/down (heck, this could even be combined into one button. LMB on it will do a menubar show/hide, RMB will do a toolbar show/hide. Finish it all of with a session default configuration and I would be very happy!!
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Re: Window button arrangement wastes space
by T. J. Brumfield on Thursday 13/Dec/2007, @19:44
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IE7, WMP, and many new Windows apps now autohide the menu bar to make the interface look clean. Press Alt and it magically appears.
At first I didn't care for it, but it has been growing on me, and the apps do look nicer.
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