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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by susegebr on Thursday 03/Jan/2008, @13:27
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Use kde from Suse 6.0
Followed the new releases always
Never seen so much resistance to the changes
As i stated elsewhere there are no specs for the kde developpers
each and every one can come up with "whe do it this way"
There is no organisation in the development.
So if this dus not change for the better i think kde 3.5.8 31.1 is the
last real kde release sofar and all the talk off kde4 results after many month
in what we now see. A very unsuefull version off....... but sure no KDE. |
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by mat69 on Thursday 03/Jan/2008, @14:56
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I think you miss the point, no matter how long you use KDE or not, even though it is nice to see an old time user.
Where do you see resistance?
Imagine I'd say to a chef in a restaurant that his food sucks he should change that. First you pissed him off, second you gave no feedback on what did not taste you (!) well and third the chances things will get changed the way you want are pretty small because of first.
Maybe devs are pissed of such kind of "feedback", I hardly beleive they are not open to a discussion but well they, you and me are human beings so respect that.
It boils down to "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" [0] or simply how to treat the people you are talking to with respect.
That will make everything easier for you and them. A win-win situation. Really!
On "specs":
You have the old guidelines for KDE 3 and the new ones are a work in process. To quote: "New interface guidelines are being developed in parallel with KDE4." [1]
You are free to post your ideas on the HIG mailgroup. There you could also see the process there may be instead of assuming there is none.
Additonally you could visit techbase [2] as a starting point on developement or the API documentation [3] if you want to see a proof of people not doing everything their way.
Maybe, just maybe, you see or feel to see only a small part of the whole picture and assume the rest looks like that small part. So what you see probably is not the whole picture and not even the base of that picture.
The base could consist of changed colours, canvas ... -- basically a changed underlying technology -- that could result in a better outcome, like "new" colours that were not available/unaffordable a long time for painting really did.
And for seeing the difference in the underlying technology you have to start painting, i.e. creating programs in this context. In fact you have to "know" the new colors first, where the documentation comes into play.
I hope my reply is not too confusing -- that happens sometimes.
[0] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
[1] http://usability.kde.org/hig/
[2] http://techbase.kde.org/
[3] http://api.kde.org/
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by Anon on Thursday 03/Jan/2008, @15:18
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"You are free to post your ideas on the HIG mailgroup. There you could also see the process there may be instead of assuming there is none."
There have been no posts to that mailing list in well over a *year*:
http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-guidelines&r=1&w=2
kde-usability is hardly a hotbed of discussion and productivity, either. KDE has simply failed, over its 11-year lifespan, to develop a large/ active usability/ HIG-team, which is a huge shame as it has all the technical underpinnings down pat.
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by mat69 on Friday 04/Jan/2008, @02:51
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Well you are right, I had no time to check that myself yesterday -- did not wanted to write such a long answer in the first place -- that is why I wrote "may".
That's a pity. I hope that KDE will have more progress in that area someday.
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by susegebr on Thursday 03/Jan/2008, @18:20
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point taken but i take nothing back
see http://www.kde-forum.org/artikel/17965/KDE4---the-great-disappointment.html
and further on and you hopefully see what i mean.
We want a normale kikcker menu. 3.5.8 style and for me KDE menu style.
if the underlaying software is Kwin or plasma it should work the Same
I have a Soundblaster live 5.1 see KMIX in kde 3.5.8 en see KMIX in kde4 it misses nearly half the possible sliders.
Xine has delayed sound playing a dvd no arts no normal sound
and the list go's on read the forums !!!!!!!!!!!!
Where are the design specifications, in a normal project you have them first
before programming starts. and design specs have to be followed to the letter.
You cant build a car and come up with the idea 3 4 or 6 wheels when the body is nearly ready.
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by mat69 on Friday 04/Jan/2008, @02:42
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You can have a "normal" kicker-like menu. Go on read the dev's blogs!!!! ;)
No design specs don't have to be followed to the letter. That's unrealistic as sometimes you'll come up with problems those specs hardly can "solve", meaning the initial design specs have to be modified to a degree.
Also new technology like a newer Qt version could result in a modified spec.
On kcontrol that was mentioned in that forum-thread: If there is so much (dev) interest in it won't disappear as Aaron said in his latest interview, but so far there is not much interest by people capable of maintaining it. In contrast to the old menu that found a maintainer.
Also config options or lack thereof of taskbar etc. were mentioned. As Aaron said some time ago he plans to add them. Adding config options is like polishing, you do that rather at the end than at the beginning before you actually have something that could be configured. Yet I have to admit that I like the Gnome system settings more than the KDE one. Now hurt me. :D
Kicker button can be activated by moving the mouse to the lower left now.
On why they don't use compiz fusion but rather KWin also listen to the latest interview or read some blogs. In short it's easier that way.
IIRC the weather applet has been discussed in a recent blog post. In fact does the author plan to add icons he simply ran out of time.
Btw. a lot was "broken" in the old code base what I read so far, meaning it would have been hard to extend a lot of it. So hard to some degree that it would be faster and easier to start from scratch.
So some of the points raised in that thread are wrong and even I without being a dev was able to show that to a degree.
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by Anon on Friday 04/Jan/2008, @02:49
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"On why they don't use compiz fusion but rather KWin also listen to the latest interview or read some blogs. In short it's easier that way."
Here's a comment giving hard numbers and stats:
http://dot.kde.org/1180541665/1180560211/1180560581/1180578526/1180594617/
In a nutshell - writing a real, production-ready Window Manager is hard. Writing code to move textures around is easy.
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by susegebr on Friday 04/Jan/2008, @16:56
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Ok Bottom line kde4 is not finished.
Google for kde3 + compiz vs kde4 gives 33.300 hits
sort it out and you have more or less 12.000 pure kde3 vs kde4 hits.
I should say time to start a site only stating at what state kde4 and the kde4 programs + applets etc etc are so we can see in one page if it is usefull to switch to kde4 from a good running system opensuse 10.3 retail +kde3 + compiz
Btw I have been a dev for 25 years on large mainframes, the last 10 years in project management.
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by mat69 on Friday 04/Jan/2008, @18:43
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Well none said KDE 4 is finished.
KDE 4 won't be finished for a long time.
The only thing that is "finished" is KDE 4.0 an initial release that even devs dub as not intended for most people out there as a lot improvements as well as old features are missing that are going to be add in later versions.
Maybe what you are asking for will be mentioned in the release notes.
Btw. it should be clear that neither alphas, betas nor RCs are intended for the general public per se. The same goes for a release.
The 4.0 release is for early adopters, people that want to develop apps for KDE and the people that like to bitch about unfinished products.
Imo you should not switch from a good running system to KDE 4.0, that could result in a disappointment. Wait for reviews of KDE 4.X versions and if you think it actually offers value for you then switch. Or you could try a Live CD.
The same rule goes for other software as well, like the Kernel. 2.6.0 was not that useable at all, while the latest version is.
You have to start somewhere.
If you found the time you could probably help a lot with your experience.
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by susegebr on Monday 07/Jan/2008, @08:49
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Tell me how to help and give a idea off the time involved
anwser me on email
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Re: We don't need no stinkin' consistency
by jospoortvliet on Saturday 05/Jan/2008, @01:58
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I want to what Mat said above - there will be aq KDE 3.5.9 release soon (as soon as we've recovered from the stress caused by KDE 4.0). And yes, that release will have new features. We won't abandon KDE 3.5.x anytime soon - it will probably be supported for years still. Part of that is because KDE 4.0 simply can't replace 3.5 fully - yet. And I think it'll take to 4.2 before we have practically every feature from 3.5 back, so we need to actively support it for at least a year - and then some, as many users won't switch for another 2 or 3 years.
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