The Fine Print: The following comments
are owned by whomever posted them.
( Reply )
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by yman on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @13:43
|
it might just have to do with personal interests. no one is stopping women from getting involved, so they probably just don't want to. there are equal opportunities, if women aren't taking what they can have, it's because they don't want it.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Chani on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @21:31
|
sadly, it's not that simple. there are lots of subtle things that can push women away; society in general pushes them towards more 'feminine' things, teaching children that girls are supposed to be one way and boys another (it seems to me that the *boys* who don't fit into this are the ones who suffer most these days - grade school can be such a cruel place). computers are seen as a male thing. geeky male stereotypes are all over the place. women still have more trouble than men in the workplace, which may turn some of them away from comp sci in general.
I find it quite interesting that in china, the gender ratio in comp sci is actually close to equal (or at least my teacher said so; I haven't checked the numbers myself).
also, perhaps some girls just don't like being surrounded by guys all the time. bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, that. :)
then there's the problem that when there are few girls around, the atmosphere can be kinda... male-centric? 'guy talk' can kinda make girls feel left out (thankfully I don't see kde channels having conversations about pr0n or anything) and sometimes guys tend to communicate differently from girls. in the same way that people from asian cultures can be unintentionally pushed away by the directness of criticism, girls can be pushed away by what people on the inside see as perfectly normal behaviour. most will either adapt to it by acting more like a guy (this isn't really a good thing; co-operation and discussion tend to be feminine traits), or turn away. and then on top of that there's the whole free-software-culture thing to adjust to. I think in this a little flexibility is required from both sides. :)
while women on *average* may be less likely to enjoy programming, I'm certain that the difference is far smaller than what we actually see.
I think KDE is really a great community, and I've hardly seen any seen any sexist behaviour (what little there was was unintentional, I'm sure), but people aren't likely to discover kde until they've already got past other potential barriers - in the general free software community, in school, at work, and in society.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Leo on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @22:49
|
>> also, perhaps some girls just don't like being surrounded by guys all the time.
Now how did a female friend of mine in engineering put it.. Something like there's quantity but a real lack of quality :)
Also I have a current female co=worker that started out in engineering but was repelled in her first semester by the masses of socially awkward engineering males. Not that it's the rule, but engineering/csc certainly has more than its share of those kinds.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by LMCBoy on Friday 11/Jan/2008, @15:02
|
> Now how did a female friend of mine in engineering put it.. Something like there's quantity but a real lack of quality :)
Or what the female students at Caltech say: "The odds are good, but the goods are odd".
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Leo S on Monday 14/Jan/2008, @16:00
|
Haha yeah that was it. Your memory is significantly better than mine :)
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Kefah Issa on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @13:55
|
No doubt. But I don't think any one is pushing the females away. its the difficulty and complexity of such a system that makes it naturally an ol'boys thingy.
But still, as you said, there are things that we men admit we would never be as good as female in.
So, in addition to development, females can contribute tremendously to UI (and usability/user experience in general), Quality, and Documentation.
Maybe they are not approached properly? maybe tasks are not clearly classified and then advertised properly?
I leave this to the core kde team to tell about...
at last, all kudos to the great 4-oh-oh !
- Kefah.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by random kde user. on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:12
|
<i>its the difficulty and complexity of such a system that makes it naturally an ol'boys thingy</i>
If I were a woman, that comment would have pushed me away.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Kefah Issa on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:40
|
Yes, its a known fact that boys like to tinker with more complex things, including when that thing is simply pointless.
For example, its a known fact that violant games are designed for boys... this why girls (in general) don't like playing them.
Its does not have any thing to do with who is better than the other.
Its important that we understand, that our actions as a community, and our expectations could be the real reason why feminine contribution is minimal.
Please take what I say in a good well.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Aaron J. Seigo on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @22:10
|
puh-lease. in the mainstream industry the numbers are something like 30% women in software. in some countries like malaysia the number of women getting management and technical degrees is greater than the number of men.
yes, there are gender biases (which don't always line up with your gonads, btw) but we are far away from the much smaller differentials those biases may create.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Joe on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @16:26
|
Then you just proved his point.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Anon on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:22
|
"its the difficulty and complexity of such a system that makes it naturally an ol'boys thingy."
"So, in addition to development, females can contribute tremendously to UI (and usability/user experience in general), Quality, and Documentation."
Did I just timewarp back to the 1950's, or something? These are awfully ignorant comments.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Kefah Issa on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:29
|
mmm. What I mean here is we are different! I do fully acknowledge the equality concept. I am not saying one is superior over the other. I am just saying that by nature we are different!
for example i would say a similar thing if it was brought up : why arabs or africans are not contributing as much. I would say that maybe the system complexity for them presents an obstacle, and maybe they can still help in many other things, (while keeping the door for helping in development open).
Please don't be hard on me.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by attendant on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:58
|
perhaps it would be best if you just STFU.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Joe on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @16:27
|
Yes, you should.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Martin Fitzpatrick on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @16:56
|
I get the impression that English is not your first language? Discussing these things is potentially explosive at the best of times, so I've given you the benefit of the doubt on some of the clumsy phrasing.
In an attempt to dig you out of your hole, would I be right to assume by "complexity" you mean in the "learning curve" sense. That is, because those groups you identify as being under-represented have - to date - less experience/track record of working on open software projects, there is a barrier to entry for them to take part? Even if only in terms of exposure, peer contact or community.
The comments on the UI stuff does smack a little of "girls play with the pretty things". That said, they are good areas to contribute for people from non-programming backgrounds, a description that fits more women than men. For now.
Hopefully that's you rescued... ...now, go get back to less complex things ;)
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by jospoortvliet on Friday 11/Jan/2008, @12:00
|
I think he has a point, even though he put it rather crudely. Boys generally enjoy technical and philosophical talk more than girls. There are many exceptions to that rule, of course - and it might very well be a cultural thing. In the Netherlands, more woman study and graduate from medicine schools - the average young surgeon here is woman, and she does a better job than males do... As that used to be a very male profession, I suppose it's kind-of a hint at the cultural basis of such biases.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Thomas on Friday 11/Jan/2008, @14:26
|
In my (computing graduate) school, the number of women has been on par with the number of men during many years (70s and 80s basically). They were even around 60% some years. But their number began to dwindle in the 90s, to become less than 10%. They are almost 25% now so it's better but it's still unbalanced. (But most of the teachers are still women.) According to some people they began to flee when the socially challenged geek cliché became widespread. But still, it means that the situation is far from being unrecoverable.
But when talking about men/women differences, bear in mind that more often that not, personal differences are greater than gender _average_ difference.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by blacky on Saturday 12/Jan/2008, @13:46
|
Women are no more sensitive to public opinion than men are. Jeez, what a bunch of patriarchs in this thread.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by anon on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:37
|
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_computing for some of the more famous women who have contributed over the years, also highlights that there are ~2.5 times more men educated in CS at the moment - this may be due to comments like Mr Issa's?
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by anon2 on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @19:16
|
No... it's because people are different.
The stats speak for themselves. Women aren't interested in developing for KDE. Just because 3 are, doesn't mean anyone is "better" than anyone.
To each his (or, to put it in KDE's obsessive political correctness, "his/her" or "her") own task. I write a little bit of code, tear apart cars and work on computers. I'm not a businessman, day trader, gardener, house cleaner, welder, pilot, construction worker, stay at home person, ...
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by anon on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @19:45
|
I do take your point, just seems such a waste of available talent. Anyway, I get the feeling these posts are like trying to have an argument with oneself - in lieu of any actual women posters hereabouts I mean :)
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Chani on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @21:43
|
um, that's kinda like saying that women just weren't interested in having jobs or voting before the 19th century.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by MamiyaOtaru on Friday 11/Jan/2008, @03:35
|
Going slightly off topic here, but Wyoming (while still a territory) gave women the right to vote (and hold office!) in 1869, before any other US State or Territory, and before New Zealand, which was the first nation as a whole to do so.
http://tinyurl.com/2oj2g4
It's one of those things that makes me wonder why we get painted as backwards rednecks so often :-/
Back to your regularly scheduled thread!
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Anonymous on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:09
|
88.4% + 5.4% = 93.8% != 100%
So what are those neither male nor female. They can't all be hybrids, can they?
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Odysseus on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:15
|
They've undeclared, i.e. Danny doesn't know what they are and is far to polite to ask...
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Hans on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:17
|
According to the digest, 6.09 % are of unknown gender. That's right. There's more of them than the females.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Chani on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @20:40
|
maybe some girls don't want to let on that they're girls, since some people get so weird about it...
KDE has been pretty good about this in my experience, though. most people seem quite mature :) I don't even think about gender issues most of the time.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by NabLa on Friday 11/Jan/2008, @01:29
|
"maybe some girls don't want to let on that they're girls, since some people get so weird about it..."
I agree with that, what we're talking about is geeky stuff and you all have to agree that geeky stuff, and not just geeky computing stuff, is just full of scary weirdos...
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Lee on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:40
|
Don't make assumptions! They actually could be :) But let's stop talking about genders and stereotypes please. It can only spoil a great KDE 4.0 celebration :)
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Max on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:46
|
Yea, I didn't add the 6% as they were undeclared. I didn't want to make assumptions. Even if they were all women, the ratio of male to female KDE developers is still very sad. :(
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Danny Allen on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:47
|
The problem with these "human" statistics is that they are "opt-in" - it is not a condition of getting an SVN account that this information is provided, and this is just a private initiative by me.
Where I don't know the gender of a person, I can often guess from their name. However, this is not possible for other ones, such as age and location, and so those are less complete. And of course, there are new accounts created weekly, which makes the data collection an ongoing effort.
People with KDE SVN accounts can contribute their data at http://commit-digest.org/data/
Danny
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Bobby on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:17
|
Yes they have a better sense of style and beauty. That's why they are models but when it comes to technology? Who said that women can't drive cars :D
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Kefah Issa on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:49
|
"Don't make assumptions! They actually could be :) But let's stop talking about genders and stereotypes please. It can only spoil a great KDE 4.0 celebration :)"
I fully agree. I am stopping right here. Please dis-regard my previous comments and lets not create a flame out of this.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Danny Allen on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @14:54
|
Remember that those percentages are based on the *number of commits* in that week, not the number of contributors (even though the actual classification of contributors is likely similar).
I would welcome a respectful debate on this issue (a comment below states that the ratio of male/female Computer Science students is about 3 to 1 - this has not been my personal experience at university, and this is certainly not the case in the KDE project).
Out of the 991 KDE contributors in my database, 969 are male and 22 are female - and this covers all areas of KDE, including documentation and translation.
Danny
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Max on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @16:57
|
Yea, at my old University. Cal State Monterey Bay it was actually a bit more balanced than that. But anywhere from a 60/40 to a 70/30 split (male/female) would be a good goal to set for the KDE 4.X.Y release cycle.
Computing should be more equal opportunity, and if women are welcomed more into the KDE/Linux world (without stereotypes (bad ones, at least) they will join in.
So instead of perpetuating this stereotype, I suggest that every person that reads this introduces 1-2 female programmers/developers/artists to KDE. Let's see if we can accomplish the goal of an even split by KDE 5.0 :)
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by anon2 on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @19:20
|
But it is equal opportunity. Females obviously don't want it, or care.
It's sexist to think otherwise. As long as the result is what is desired, I wouldn't care if the statistics were the other way around - and I don't think we'd be having these sexist posts, either.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Chani on Thursday 10/Jan/2008, @21:51
|
but it *isn't* equal opportunity. you obviously just haven't seen this for yourself. lots of people don't see their own privilege; it's kinda like trying to see the back of your own head.
it's certainly a heck of a lot better than it used to be, but there's always room for improvement. :)
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
|
Re: We need more women!!!
by Carlo on Friday 11/Jan/2008, @14:59
|
Give it a start Maxine. Gender reassignment is en vogue, I've been told.
|
[
Reply To This | View ]
|
The Fine Print: The previous
comments are owned by whomever posted them.
( Reply )
|
|
![[KDE Dot News]](http://www.kde.org/dot/Images/kdedotnews.gif)
