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Re: who is the girl
by Anon on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @09:50
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First thanks to the moderator who deleted the original thread. Please also delete this one!
And "Paul", for your information, Chani _is_ a coder and a girl, which proves you wrong, and there are several other highly skilled coder girls in the KDE community, so your posts only make you look retarded and offend other people, so please just go away.
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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @10:36
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As I said in my deleted post, women do have the capacity to be good coders and many of the best programmers in history were women. Now it's a fact that there are very few women in the field today compared to men, and this is because most of them don't like coding, no because of sexism. If you really like something, you don't let sexism get in your way. I personally love cooking and I don't care if every time I cook something I get sexist joke from some people (and those include women, no kidding!), I just laugh at it and enjoy my cooking. If you let stupid remarks get in your way than maybe you don't really like what you're doing enough.
And I still stand that saying that a women looks sweet is not inapropriate unless you're a taliban or a neocon or something, and I've worked enough with women to notice that they say the same thing about us so please.
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Re: who is the girl
by Ben on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @10:50
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Don't know why you keep bringing the Taliban up. From my understanding they make women cover up head-to-toe because they think men can't be trusted to behave themselves when presented with the female form, ie act like young boys. This is why I thought your characterization was odd/ironic.
Leaving aside the causes of the gender imbalance in programming (seen in other fields in both directions), I also find it odd when I travel to places like Italy where men seem to have carte blanche to hit on women loudly and unrepentantly in the street, almost as a hobby. Never understood that one, must ask an italian lady someday.
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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @11:12
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> Don't know why you keep bringing the Taliban up
Because the Talibans reprehend everything that might leads to seduction between man and woman, they even forbid woman from waring white socks cause it's too sexy.
Well, when I see people getting outraged at a man saying to a woman she looks sweet as if this would lead to sexual assault then yes, it's ridiculous and it looks like Taliban thinking.
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Re: who is the girl
by patrice on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @11:01
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the numbers about women's involvement in KDE, extracted from the commit demographics of the last 5 commit digests:
06.01.2008: 5,42%
30.12.2007: 5,64%
23.12.2007: 3,84%
16.12.2007: 4,83%
09.12.2007: 5,45%
whether this 5% correspond to programming or to translations and other non programming activities I cannot say.
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Re: who is the girl
by mike on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @16:12
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paul. stop making generalizations,
please tell me the sample size of women you've worked with that would allow you to draw a conclusion for the entire gender.
everyday people deal with sexism, racist, classism, homophobia, etc.. and to a great deal of people it does prevent them from doing things they would enjoy.
it's funny you used an cooking example to highlight how you're comfortable doing what? women's work? you fucking sexist, you're too stupid to even realize.
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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @18:34
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> please tell me the sample size of women you've worked with that would allow you to draw a conclusion for the entire gender.
Well, a sample of women in computer fields is always hard because there are so few of them. In my graduation class, there were 5 women and 25 men, none of these women wanted to code.
> it's funny you used an cooking example to highlight how you're comfortable doing what? women's work?
Re-read my comment, I said I enjoy cooking even though I have to put up with people making stupid remarks about how cooking is a girl thing. That's stupid of course but it doesn't stop me from cooking. There will always be ignorant people that think that cooking is a girl thing and those ignorants won't stop me from enjoying cooking. Get it now? Thanks for the nice words though...
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Re: who is the girl
by Odysseus on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @15:26
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There are plenty of women (not girls!) who do enjoy coding, I know many of them, and most of them are far better programmers than I will ever be. I also know several who have moved on to management or architecture roles, mostly because they are good at it too and want to further develop their careers (just as many men do), but also a little bit to escape the sexist attitude that seems to permeate the industry. It's little wonder the gender ratio is so unbalanced with such ignorant viewpoints as yours.
John.
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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @18:45
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What's ignorant about my viewpoint? All I'm saying is that there are very few women coding compared to men, which is true, and that this is not because of sexism but because they don't like coding (znd those that do code though are just as good as men at it). If they really liked it they would do it, believe me women can do what they want nowadays in this part of the world.
Now the reason they don't like coding is not genetic, just purely historical and social just like in science in general unfortunately.
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Re: who is the girl
by Debian User on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @23:40
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The obvious correction: Women and men do have the same genes.
The less obvious: You say it's only "historical and social" reasons. And just before that, you explain it's not "sexism".
So all it's about, is if there historical and social reasons are sexism. For some reason you don't want to accept, that the decisions women make are not limited by being a woman in a society that discriminates against women.
Not only do my female programmer colleagues get less money than I do. They also get a consistent resistance to that they are coding and consistently are subject to increased interest for some colleagues and clients, that want them to primarily socialize with them.
I would say, women have a hard time to constantly expose themselves with individual achievements and deeds in a mixed group and get pushed out by male majority.
I call it sexism when the reaction to your person is determined by your gender, and you may call it social. Although, I tend to think of the behavior in concrete as quiet anti-social.
Yours,
Kay
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Re: who is the girl
by Odysseus on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @08:51
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The ignorant part I refer to is your view that women do not enjoy coding. That's a sweeping generalisation drawn from your too limited experience and sample pool, and I can produce dozens of counter-examples to disprove your theory. Lets try a few: B, who has a Masters in Operations Research, who is always to be found at work late trying to get that elusive algorithm optimisation just right; L, who hacked the basics of a middleware system over a weekend just for the challenge of doing so long before middleware was even a buzzword (she's now lead architect, but is known to sneak in on weekends to do a little hacking just to keep her hand in); K who will re-write something 5 times over just to reach that level of elegant simplicity she likes in her code. These women LOVE coding, they love the challenge, they love the logic and maths and creativity that goes into it, just the same as I do.
The difference, I suspect, is that they had the opportunity to discover that this was something they loved, instead of being discouraged by the image that surrounds computing and the sciences in general, and the behaviour of all too many of its practitioners.
"Now the reason they don't like coding is not genetic, just purely historical and social just like in science in general unfortunately."
Oh so close, your deduction on the reason for few women is bang on the money, its such a shame it follows such a false premise.
John.
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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @10:25
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> These women LOVE coding, they love the challenge, they love the logic and maths and creativity that goes into it, just the same as I do.
I already said that there has been and always will be women that love coding. The reality is (check the number and not only the KDE ones) that most people coding are not women but men so either women are bad at it (which is not true as some are very good at it) or they don't like it for social/historical reason.
> Oh so close, your deduction on the reason for few women is bang on the money, its such a shame it follows such a false premise.
Sexism is a pretty strong word for what you are describing, telling a woman that she looks nice is not sexism.
Check out from wikipedia:
"Sexism is commonly considered to be discrimination and/or hatred towards people based on their sex rather than their individual merits"
Now this was neither discrimination nor hatred. Got to Iran or Saudi Arabia, there you will meet real sexism, stop using this word for innocent compliments it will make it lose its real meaning and it is not helpful for people that are the real victims of sexism. Actually it's an insult to the real victims of sexism.
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Re: who is the girl
by albert on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @11:27
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You don't know what you are talking about, there are at least the same number of women programming as of men, the thing is they are more discrete.
Do you know who Alan Cox is? You do. But do you know who in fact codes most of his patches? His mom. Yes, his mom. And what about Linus' wife, all people know is that she was a karate champion, that's to keep a low profile, actually she is the hax0r behind git and most of the original kernel source.
Finally, are you really that silly to think that only less than 5% of the programmers are women only because you see that ratio in college or in the office?
I give you a hint, women don't study computer sciences in college, because they are born with programming skills and willing to keep a low profile about it.
You are not only sexist and antisemit, but also a misogenic zionistic nazi.
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Re: who is the girl
by Kacie Gene Sander on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @20:38
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I am the girl. I don't know what the first comment said, but I'm the one in the middle of the third picture (the only girl I see in any of the pictures). I am not a contributor to KDE, I'm not a "Computer Science" anything, but I am a KDE enthusiast. This is my first community event and I'm happy to be here. Just wanted to say how weird it is to be reading a thread about myself on the dot :-)
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Re: who is the girl
by djouallah mimoune on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @04:09
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the first comment was by a guy who was very shy to write his name, he says that he found you sweet;) then a polemic raised that it is not decent to say that to a woman.
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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @06:35
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hey kacey! Some guy (not me) said you 'looked sweet' which started an outrage of people saying how sexist that was. Please confirm or infirm if there's anything wrong with that comment. Cheers
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Re: who is the girl
by Kacie Gene Sander on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @23:50
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I obviously don't have the entire context of the comment, but I don't think of “sweet" as a sexist remark. I can’t generalize for the opinions of women everywhere, but it doesn't bother me.
I had an amazing weekend, and I am so glad that I got to be there! Thank you to everyone for contributing to such a wonderful atmosphere and great community... I'm so happy to be a part of it! -- Kacie Gene
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Re: who is the girl
by Oscar on Sunday 20/Jan/2008, @09:38
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Yes, let's hear from Kacey since she can be the spokesperson for all girls in the world. *sigh*
I just hope that this somewhat depressing thread don't discourage girls from ever coming to a KDE event again.
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Re: who is the girl
by illogic-al on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @14:36
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o rly? nothing better to do today gents?
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