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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @18:45
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What's ignorant about my viewpoint? All I'm saying is that there are very few women coding compared to men, which is true, and that this is not because of sexism but because they don't like coding (znd those that do code though are just as good as men at it). If they really liked it they would do it, believe me women can do what they want nowadays in this part of the world.
Now the reason they don't like coding is not genetic, just purely historical and social just like in science in general unfortunately. |
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Re: who is the girl
by Debian User on Friday 18/Jan/2008, @23:40
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The obvious correction: Women and men do have the same genes.
The less obvious: You say it's only "historical and social" reasons. And just before that, you explain it's not "sexism".
So all it's about, is if there historical and social reasons are sexism. For some reason you don't want to accept, that the decisions women make are not limited by being a woman in a society that discriminates against women.
Not only do my female programmer colleagues get less money than I do. They also get a consistent resistance to that they are coding and consistently are subject to increased interest for some colleagues and clients, that want them to primarily socialize with them.
I would say, women have a hard time to constantly expose themselves with individual achievements and deeds in a mixed group and get pushed out by male majority.
I call it sexism when the reaction to your person is determined by your gender, and you may call it social. Although, I tend to think of the behavior in concrete as quiet anti-social.
Yours,
Kay
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Re: who is the girl
by Odysseus on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @08:51
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The ignorant part I refer to is your view that women do not enjoy coding. That's a sweeping generalisation drawn from your too limited experience and sample pool, and I can produce dozens of counter-examples to disprove your theory. Lets try a few: B, who has a Masters in Operations Research, who is always to be found at work late trying to get that elusive algorithm optimisation just right; L, who hacked the basics of a middleware system over a weekend just for the challenge of doing so long before middleware was even a buzzword (she's now lead architect, but is known to sneak in on weekends to do a little hacking just to keep her hand in); K who will re-write something 5 times over just to reach that level of elegant simplicity she likes in her code. These women LOVE coding, they love the challenge, they love the logic and maths and creativity that goes into it, just the same as I do.
The difference, I suspect, is that they had the opportunity to discover that this was something they loved, instead of being discouraged by the image that surrounds computing and the sciences in general, and the behaviour of all too many of its practitioners.
"Now the reason they don't like coding is not genetic, just purely historical and social just like in science in general unfortunately."
Oh so close, your deduction on the reason for few women is bang on the money, its such a shame it follows such a false premise.
John.
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Re: who is the girl
by Paul on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @10:25
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> These women LOVE coding, they love the challenge, they love the logic and maths and creativity that goes into it, just the same as I do.
I already said that there has been and always will be women that love coding. The reality is (check the number and not only the KDE ones) that most people coding are not women but men so either women are bad at it (which is not true as some are very good at it) or they don't like it for social/historical reason.
> Oh so close, your deduction on the reason for few women is bang on the money, its such a shame it follows such a false premise.
Sexism is a pretty strong word for what you are describing, telling a woman that she looks nice is not sexism.
Check out from wikipedia:
"Sexism is commonly considered to be discrimination and/or hatred towards people based on their sex rather than their individual merits"
Now this was neither discrimination nor hatred. Got to Iran or Saudi Arabia, there you will meet real sexism, stop using this word for innocent compliments it will make it lose its real meaning and it is not helpful for people that are the real victims of sexism. Actually it's an insult to the real victims of sexism.
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Re: who is the girl
by albert on Saturday 19/Jan/2008, @11:27
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You don't know what you are talking about, there are at least the same number of women programming as of men, the thing is they are more discrete.
Do you know who Alan Cox is? You do. But do you know who in fact codes most of his patches? His mom. Yes, his mom. And what about Linus' wife, all people know is that she was a karate champion, that's to keep a low profile, actually she is the hax0r behind git and most of the original kernel source.
Finally, are you really that silly to think that only less than 5% of the programmers are women only because you see that ratio in college or in the office?
I give you a hint, women don't study computer sciences in college, because they are born with programming skills and willing to keep a low profile about it.
You are not only sexist and antisemit, but also a misogenic zionistic nazi.
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