Take it easy, there's still a long way to go. I for one would rather have a konqueror with full javascript support (stable !) instead of this ActiveX technology. Just to check out this LivePics stuff I went to the following URL and noticed the javascript wasn't working properly with my konqueror from CVS. Just a few seconds later it crashed, leaving me with a backtrace leading to, indeed, the javascript libraries. This is what happens a lot lately, now I don't know if the javascript problems are caused by something else, but anyway I wouldn't go so far to call konqueror the best browser in the world.

A question for the javascript developers : are you interested in backtraces from crashes caused by javascript on certain sites ?

Jelmer

Don't think so and see the future.
PERHAPS in 2005 there will have just some .NET programs, so be carefull insulting things which may save you from Micro$oft softs!!!

ActiveX and .NET are very different things, so the comparison isn't all that accurate...

...however, for those who seem to think Gnome is "ahead" and don't see how amazing this announcement is, I feel the need to point out that:

1) .NET was designed to be more platform-independent. ActiveX is based on low-level MS API calls, many of which are un-documented or poorly documented. So, the ActiveX stuff is harder to implement.

2) .NET is extremely new and has very few uses in current Windows versions. ActiveX is everywhere, and every time a Linux product expands support for ActiveX, it is taking a major step in compatability, far more than any .NET project will offer.

>It insults our non-ia32 users. Wine is not portable.

Okay. First of all, you're taking this _way_ too seriously. Nobody's insulting anyone here. Now that you've cooled off a bit, think. A feature that benefits some people makes Konqueror a better browser. Unfortunately, that feature is not available to you; however, that doesn't make the feature bad or detrimental to Konqueror, or insulting to you.

Also, check out Bochs. (http://bochs.sourceforge.net) There is hope!

>Is ActiveX superior to KParts?

ActiveX is a different solution to a different problem. No one is suggesting giving up KParts now that we have ActiveX! The _only_ reason we want ActiveX is to be able to watch Shockwave movies and Sorensen/Windows Media encoded videos. We would prefer a *nix native solution if one came along, but we do what we can with what we've got.

>How can things like the Shockwave player be "popular," when there was no way to run them on Unix before now?

Shockwave is popular *on the Net*! Not, obviously, for KDE users, as they couldn't access it. Duh!

>To portray the KDE community, and KDE apps, as aspiring to be Windows, is insulting.

We don't aspire to be Windows. We aspire to watch Shockwave/Sorensen/WMP web content as Microsoft goes down in flames!

Unfortunately, I fear IHBT. Oh well, it was fun actually :-)

> Andreas, Malte, Nikolas: Don't take this personally, but I just have
> to say this. I find this article insulting.

I'm sorry to hear that.

> (Assuming for a minute that this is a good thing to have)
> It insults our non-ia32 users. Wine is not portable. To say that this
> helps Konqueror, and makes Konqueror the best browser on any platform,

The article does not claim that this
support alone makes Konqueror the best browser, but it does fill a current
void on the Linux/Unix desktop which made it difficult for Linux/Unix
browsers to compete with browsers on other platforms. This failure
is not due to any lack of talent on the part of KDE developers but to the
fact that certain very popular technologies on the Web are not available for
Linux natively.

Also the intent clearly was not to insult anyone. Though I respect your
feelings, I do not see how it insults anybody. Also as a reality check
the fact is that KDE should not limit itself to things available for all
possible platforms, particularly when something relies on a large Open Source
project that developers of other platforms are free to port over if they
deem it important enough. Not to mention that clearly the vast majority
of PC users are on Intel platforms.

> when this will only run on a few select platforms of KDE, dismisses
> all those users. Does Wine even run on all of the ia32 OSes that KDE
> runs on?

I don't know, but it runs at least on Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris. If it
runs on FreeBSD and Solaris I presume it would not
be that hard to port it to
other BSDs and their derivatives, should someone be so inclined. After all,
WINE has an X-type license.

> It insults our memory and intelligence. For the longest
> time we've been told over and over how wonderful KParts are. From the
> KDE 2.0 press release:
>

[ ... ]

>
> So back in October, we were led to believe that KParts
> are the "next generation," as they are what Konqueror is based on.
> What changed? Why is suddenly ActiveX a great "obstacle" removed,
> and a "shot in the arm" for the browser? Is ActiveX superior to KParts?

Of course not. ActiveX is a great feature for permitting Konqueror to
go mainstream and for permitting users to achieve greater enjoyment from
their surfing. Remember that "it's the apps, stupid". Having a
compatability layer suddenly makes a lot of Web "apps" available to
KDE users that were not available before. I think our disagreement may
be that the article considers all PC users and you are considering
current KDE users?

> What obstacles were in front of us before? And why couldn't they be
> removed in the KDE way - using our libraries, following our UI
> standards, and using Free Software licenses?

If an Open Source Shockwave Flash Player were available, or an Open Source
Robinson codec, I would agree with you. But they currently are not, and with
reaktivate, KDE users will no longer be deprived of the web sites that feature
those technologies until they become available natively.

> Lastly, this article attempts to speak for the reader in
> ways I think are unfounded. How can things like the Shockwave player
> be "popular," when there was no way to run them on Unix before now?

People I have conversed with have universally praised Shockwave as a
great technology. According to Macromedia's website, over 200 million
users have Shockwave installed. If that's not popular, I don't know
what is!

In any case it is not speaking for the reader, it is speaking about the
Web -- i.e., Shockwave is popular on the Web. I hope that clarifies
the point being made.

[ ... ]

> Not everyone likes Windows, uses Windows,
> needs Windows, can run Windows, or even knows what runs on Windows
> these days. To portray the KDE community, and KDE apps, as aspiring
> to be Windows, is insulting.

Again, I am sorry you were upset by the article. Please rest assured
that nothing of the sort was intended. I think if you read the article
with the picture of Konqueror/KDE going into the mainstream in mind
you might view it differently. In fact I'm not sure what the article
has to do with Windows, except to say that technologies previously
available only on Windows (and maybe the Mac) are now available for the
great bulk of Linux/Unix users. I think that's good news for KDE and
Open Source.

Errmmm... just to point something out... KParts and ActiveX are two totally different animals. In fact, I'd wager that the the ActiveX implementation in kde is a Kpart. A Kpart is many times more powerful than activex and is used for embedding apps one within another regardless of what apps are being embedded where.

ActiveX (afaik) is used principly for embedding web content plugins in MSIE. Think of kde's implementation as a wrapper for activex controls to be used as kparts within konq.

TRoy

I find this post insulting. It's exactly this kind of flame thrower silliness that builds up over time to cause some of the most talented developers to throw up their hands and just give up. I further hate the fact that I'm getting sucked into replying to such a troll.

To your first point, the complaint you're getting at there should instead be directed to the Wine, not KDE folks. Unix applications are supposed to build from other widely supported libraries, and Wine certainly fits that description.

Second point: KParts is for connecting information paths within KDE applications. Where exactly do you get the notion that ActiveX is somehow to be used to fit that role? I can only assume that you decided to make that up as you went rolling along.

Last point: I don't believe that there are 2 billion Chinese in the world, as none of them are in my house at the moment. That's the logical equivalent to your suggestion that Shockwave isn't a popular technology.

It's this kind of mindless venom that does far more harm to open source software than anything Microsoft's PR department can come up with. Browser plug-in support is a huge hole for the *nix desktop, and these guys are well on the way of filling it. On top of that, they did so in a way that both stays true to the GPL, and the proprietary licenses of the plug-in creators. This is an accomplishment worthy of high praise, yet here I am instead responding to a troll.

For the longest time we've been told over and over how wonderful KParts are.
So back in October, we were led to believe that KParts are the "next generation," as they are what Konqueror is based on. What changed? Why is suddenly ActiveX a great "obstacle" removed, and a "shot in the arm" for the browser? Is ActiveX superior to KParts? What obstacles were in front of us before? And why couldn't they be removed in the KDE way - using our libraries, following our UI standards, and using Free Software licenses?

This is a complete misunderstanding. ActiveX does in no way replace KParts, those controls like Shockwave are not provided by reaktivate, they are used by it.
You obviously didn't bother to have a look at the code before assuming it's some kind of KParts "replacement". If you did, you would have noticed that reaktivate is a KPart.

Making Konqueror as feature packed as any M$ offering is what the public wants! To suggest otherwise is to relegate the best chance Linux has to become accepted and USED to the ash heap of past failures.

I absolutely abhor Microsoft's marketing practices, their history of poorly cobbled together code and the poor value their products have represented. The public wants and needs an alternative that does what M$ products promised and deliver so poorly. And we want it without all the nonsense that comes from living with an agressive monopoly.

Like it or not, Windows has set the standard for the kinds of features users want. If KDE and Konqueror are to succeed, they need to satisfy those needs the public now has and make the features accessible, affordable and an attractive alternative.

Well done KDE!

Brilliant idea! Make your reaktivate binary setuid nobody and chrooted /dev/null!

I'm not too sure if su nobody is easily possible given that usually nobody has no write access at all (apart from /tmp maybe). We need to install some files that we download and need to change WINE's registry. Running the whole thing chrooted is planned, though. However, it requires quite a few design changes. Stay tuned.

You might want to check Fred Mclains webpage on the continueing security hole that is ActiveX. He has gotten to mimic a signed security certificate..... there are a lot of horrible things that can be done with that black magic....