OCT
5
2001

Quickies: Yangchunbaixue, libkdegames, KDE Release Updates

In a commendable flurry of submissions, Anonymous wrote in with a link to an announcement from China-based Dynasoft on a "sophisticated Chinese
KDE desktop environment, hybridly-licensed, and based on Red Hat Linux 7.1". Looks promising (English, Chinese), although the screenshot section is a bit wack. Andreas Beckermann wrote in with an announcement for KGame -- the short is that KGame is part of libkdegames and provides a sweet API to make the life of the game designer that much easier. Jono Bacon wrote in to tell us about the first interview on enterprise.kde.org; it's with Shawn Gordon of theKompany. Moritz Moeller-Herrmann pointed us to an indepth perspective on CDE, KDE, GNOME featured on ZDNet. Naturally, they like KDE. Finally, George Russell wrote in with the latest updates on all of two (2) upcoming KDE releases: "The developer site has a preliminary release schedule for a 2.2.2 release - incremental bug fixes over 2.2.1 - details are here on the KDE site. The KDE 3 Alpha 1 release will be on Friday. Release coordinator spells out the reasons for the 1 week delay in this email on the core development lists." Thar you go, thanks to all.

Comments

Well, GNOME will probably always be behing in polishing the desktop. That is because GNOME always leaps ahead in API, and continually forgets that their desktop isn't fancy like KDEs.

I will say that esd needs a replacement - it is not very good, I can hardly ever get it to work.

What I think we really need is to push towards GNOME/KDE (GDE??) integration. For example, it would be nice if they could both use the same configuration interface (like gconf), sound system (probably aRTS), etc, as well as possibly future integration of Gtk and Qt. It seems now that we have two DEs, one which has a better API, and continually is leaping ahead in new technologies, and another which looks very good and seems to be much more focused towards end-users (GNOME has ALWAYS lagged behind on this - only people like me use it.)
If we could combine these two DEs, we would have an innovative API (GNOME), a stable, end-user oriented system (KDE), a much more developed system (neither), etc.. In this way, we would finally have a good DE to compete with Windows, and we would only need a good end-user distribution of Linux (right now there isn't one - please try installing Windows before commenting - it is MUCH easier to do for people who are not knowledgable. Besides, right now we have too many copies of the same thing in KDE and GNOME - Abiword and KOffice, Kfm/Konqueror (forgive me about this, I haven't used KDE very long) and Nautilus, KControl and Gnomecc, etc.

Constantine Evans

Note: I use both - I am not a troll for GNOME


By C. Evans at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Random comments on your post:

Note that some KDE developers have talked about moving back from DCOP to CORBA, or at least connecting the two, as soon as they feel that CORBA has become a usable system for them.

By the way, you sound a bit like a public relations guy using 'innovative' all the time... both KDE and Gnome are 'innovative'.

I have tried installing Windows -- start from a computer without a formatted harddisk and then try installing Windows and Linux Mandrake -- Linux will win on ease of use (plus the Windows install crashed on me).

It always used to be said that Gnome was better because it looked better. Now people seem to be saying that KDE is the one with the looks and Gnome the one with the decent backend. This confuses me, particularly as Gnome hasn't changed in this time.


By Jon at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Oh - the innovative comes from my background in biotech - everything is "innovative"

In matters of Windows - I mean installation for the normal user - the normal user doesn't want to install 2 operating systems, or format their harddrive themself, they just want the OS to install - we need a dist like this for normal users (prob now with KDE - because KDE is easier to use and more stable in my opinion - maybe that is because my GNOME is from CVS).

But GNOME has changed - the backend at least. And it seems that they have forgotten about looking good - something that normal users care more about than a good backend. Yet KDE has changed how they look - and they look very good. But in the meantime, GNOME is developing C#, Bonobo, GConf, Bonobo-conf, gtk2, and many other backend changes that have no effect on looks. So GNOME has certainly been doing something, you just can not see it. Whereas in KDE it is very easy to see (I used KDE 1.x for a while and it was completely different).


By C. Evans at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

Do you have any evidence that Gnome has a better api than kde. Name one single part of the gnome api that is better than kde's equivalent. The gnome 2.0 api, while taking a slightly different approach in many areas, is just catching up to what kde has been using and has stabalized since the release of 2.0. Qt and gtk will never merge, simply because qt uses c++, the natural way to do OOP.

Tell me, what part of gnome is so innovative? Is it there rippoff of IOSlaves, their rippoff of COM, the fact that they are the first people to program a GUI in C, or is it because they are the first GUI to using AA fonts? I see no innovation.

Then you complain about duplication. Well, try convincing the KDE programmers to stop using C++, and then convince the Gnome guys to stop using C. That will be the day.

At the end of your post you say that you haven't used KDE for a very long time. I assume by this comment that you haven't looked at the source either. If you don't know about KDE, and don't know about KDE's API, then what gives you the right to comment on them?


By Matt Newell at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

My point exactly - this is the main flaw in my comment. IT WILL NOT WORK. Because of people who say KDE is stupid, and people who say GNOME is stupid. They just have to continue preaching. Oh well.


By C. Evans at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

Well, GNOME will probably always be behing in polishing the desktop. That is because GNOME always leaps ahead in API, and continually forgets that their desktop isn't fancy like KDEs.

I will say that esd needs a replacement - it is not very good, I can hardly ever get it to work.

What I think we really need is to push towards GNOME/KDE (GDE??) integration. For example, it would be nice if they could both use the same configuration interface (like gconf), sound system (probably aRTS), etc, as well as possibly future integration of Gtk and Qt. It seems now that we have two DEs, one which has a better API, and continually is leaping ahead in new technologies, and another which looks very good and seems to be much more focused towards end-users (GNOME has ALWAYS lagged behind on this - only people like me use it.)
If we could combine these two DEs, we would have an innovative API (GNOME), a stable, end-user oriented system (KDE), a much more developed system (neither), etc.. In this way, we would finally have a good DE to compete with Windows, and we would only need a good end-user distribution of Linux (right now there isn't one - please try installing Windows before commenting - it is MUCH easier to do for people who are not knowledgable. Besides, right now we have too many copies of the same thing in KDE and GNOME - Abiword and KOffice, Kfm/Konqueror (forgive me about this, I haven't used KDE very long) and Nautilus, KControl and Gnomecc, two different websites that do nearly exactly the same thing, etc.

Constantine Evans

Note: I use both - I am not a troll for GNOME


By C. Evans at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

This sounds great, but it's very difficult to integrate technologies. Gtk and Qt have completley different philosophies regarding just about everything. A wrapper connecting the two would be insanely diffucult to code, and probably very very slow in usage.

I don't think "competing" with Windows is even an issue. For one, I have installed windows and and several Linux distributions, and found that they are about the same in terms of ease of use, but Linux instllations have always given more control over the installed system. Abiword and KOffice are not copies, Konqueror and Nautilus, etc and etc, are not copies because they are not simply duplicates of each with :s/gtk/qt or :s/qt/gtk. They use different technologies in different ways.


By Carbon at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

I would not be bashing GNOME too much. Fact is, the most valuable
part of a desktop environment is apps, specifically an office suite.
OpenOffice started out as a bloated pig but it looks like they are
doing all the right things to it. OpenOffice now looks like it will
be a serious competitor to KOffice. All the rest of GNOME and KDE is
not as essential, so despite a lag in technology, GNOME is quite
competitive now.


By All_troll_no_tech at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

And what exactly does Open Office have to do with GNOME? Does it use GTK or Gnomelibs? No. Does it use Bonobo? No. (Before you go disputing this, it does use an IDL, see http://udk.openoffice.org/, but a special bridge is required for Bonobo, see http://whiteboard.openoffice.org/bonobo/technical.html).

Of course there is also a C++ bridge for the Open Office UNO -- see http://udk.openoffice.org/cpp/man/cpp_bridges.html -- so Open Office can integrate just as easily into KDE (as a KPart or whatnot).

So you can just as easily run OpenOffice on KDE as on GNOME -- well, better even :-).


By Sage at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Instead of discussing whether OOffice is a "GNOME" application or a package without special bindings to either project, how about a tool that automagically themes gtk like the current KDE theme? KDE already has something that imports pixmap-based GTK themes to use them, and an option to use KDE fonts and colours in Motif apps like Netscape.

That way, even users that think there is merit in true GNOME apps (like I do - sodipodi e.g. is really much more useful than kontour to me, same with abiword, although I do like the general concept of koffice) can use them without visual ugliness or having to adapt their gtk theme manually.

Of course, this won't help *me* since I don't use pixmap-based themes (liquid), but especially for the default KDE look and feel it would be an useful option.


By Arondylos at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

a) GNOME has not adopted aRts.

b) What LPGL thing? GNOME's platform libraries have always been and always will be LGPLed. If you saw people complaining against Qt's GPL, it's not the GNOME people. They could care less. KDE users complained about it.

c) "Badly beaten in terms of quality"? What are you, a ZDNet writer?

d) Eazel has gone under and the Nautilus software gets more and more contributions every day. The 1.0.5 release is coming and it's, once again, a vast improvement over the previous one.

e) Ximian is doing pretty well actually. They're selling different products (Ximian GNOME, Ximian Desktop, Ximian Evolution) and services (see www.ximian.com). They will, in the future, use Mono to help them build their apps in a better way (for them). Follow the simple rule: don't like it, don't use it.


By Evandro at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

>Jono Bacon wrote in to tell us about the first interview
>on enterprise.kde.org; it's with Shawn Gordon of theKompany.

Way to branch out and get a handle of the views of the enterprise!

Next week: Jono's mum, and how she uses KDE for keeping track of addresses and phone numbers. Followed by yet another fawning interview with Shawn Gordon.


By Wigle at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Please, do not be alarmed. This is only a troll. Refrain from replying and ignore all posts in this thread.

This has been a public service announcement.


By Troll Detector at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

But it IS funny.


By Moritz Moeller-... at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

It's funny, because it's true


By Dong at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

Not quite. In order for it to be true, he'd have to actually interview his mom. Plus, I don't see what you're getting cynical about. theKompany is a great example of a KDE business, there's no reason for enterprise.kde.org not to interview them.


By Carbon at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

How funny it is,

they are discussing the future releases, while Mandrake8 users
are still waiting on the wings to get their delayed packages for
their OS. Instead of this, the excusing README in the Mandrake
subdirectory tells me to look into the cocker, "or better" buy
the new Mandrake 8.1 .
Do you want us to buy software, to get the latest packages ?
Shall we better go back to other distributors, that seems to be
better supportet ?


By Christian Groove at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

>Do you want us to buy software, to get the latest packages ?
>Shall we better go back to other distributors, that seems to be
>better supportet ?

No ;) RedHat user base is more than Mandrake's so you can see earlier RedHat packages were unavailable or broken, now the RedHat packages are quite impressive, no headaches.


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

You can upgrade to Mandrake 8.1 for free. In fact I did so just today.
Except that fonts in Konsole seem rather broken, it's not bad.

And please don't look into the cocker, dogs don't like that.

In any case: KDE doesn't make Mandrake RPMS, or RedHat RPMS, or no RPM, no DEB, no binary at all.

If you think Mandrake is lagging on building RPMs, go to mandrakeforum, and complain there. It really does you no good at all to do it here.


By Roberto Alsina at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

This is *not* intended to start a distro war thread, as I liked Mandrake when I used it, and still recommend people stay with Windows if they have a working environment that they like. But...

I switched from Mandrake 7.2 to SuSE 7.1 Professional because of slow releases of KDE updates, and because of all the talk of a GTK-only Mandrake admin program. Having used it for several months, I really think that SuSE has integrated KDE much more closely than Mandrake; the KDE Control Center has a bunch of extra SuSE admin choices, meaning I go to one place to admin all aspects of the machine (that's just an example, not the whole story... the KDE install in SuSE just "feels" better).

SuSE 7.3 is due out October 22nd with KDE 2.2.1, ReiserFS, JFS or Ext3, Linux 2.4.10, and a whole slew of the latest nice bells and whistles. I'm planning on testing the waters of installing it on a friend's computer (until now, I haven't felt that Linux/KDE offered a *better* experience).

I haven't played with debian or Red Hat recently, but played with *all* the major distros a year and a half ago, so I'm *not* saying that you choice is bad, just saying what I use, and why I switched from Mandrake to SuSE for my KDE desktop. Incidently, I'm also moving my servers to SuSE in the next few months... I'm very comfortable with its "feel" via ssh/telnet as well (which could concievably have suffered due to an overemphasis on the GUI).

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

The features of KDE 3.0 will be of User Friendly, easy to use, easy to upgrade and very functional desktop environment complimented with Feature rich KOffice 1.2> perhaps KOffice 3.0 :) But it may take a year :( I am just very eager to see that day ;)

Keep up the nice work!!!


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Anyone know anything about the next version of koffice (1.2)? Release schedule? New features? Will there be a bug fix release (1.1.1)? Just curious. I'm a happy user of Koffice - MS Office is nowhere to be found on my machine :)


By Jano at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

The next version of Koffice will probably be based on KDE 3, so expect it around the 1st quarter of 2002.


By Evandro at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Current HEAD KWord has true WYSIWYG, iirc.


By Carbon at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

>But it may take a year

Not likely! Right now the KDE 3.0 release is aimed at February 25 of next year. I wonder how the developers are going to have time to add all of their cool features?


By not me at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Six syllables:

KDE 3.1 :-)


By Carbon at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

No, it won't - because no normal user is going to be able to 1. figure out how to install linux, 2. figure out how to get X working, and 3. figure out how to get KDE working.

We need and end-user(ie. idiot) distribution before we can bring linux to the desktop.


By C. Evans at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

Ever tried Suse? I think they're well on the road for said Idiot's Distribution. Maybe in a few revisions..

But you don't just need this - what you really need for the end-user is games.
Most of the dummy-users choose their system by availability of games, so they don't need an additional machine for their kids...


By Robyxx at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

Whatever happened to GGZ?


By Carbon at Fri, 2001/10/05 - 5:00am

Can I draw the attention of the KDE community more specifically to the frustrations Mandrake 8.1 users are experiencing with KDE and the euro symbol - non-KDE apps are working fine. There is some major keyboard problems


By Simon at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

Seriously - I'm pretty laid back about topic drift and metaconversation, but can't someone just ban his IP from posting, or do the equivelent of killfiling the guy? He's almost singlehandedly turned the entire site into useless back and forth semantic and illogical arguements about inane and trivial points. Just take a look at flatforty - almost all the new posts are him (a good third to 40%) or replies to him.

The flames and stupid threads on the dot have gotten to the point that it's not worth reading more than the story summaries - and I'm saying this as an avid Slashdot reader and poster.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

How do we know he has a static ip?? - or that he isn't behind an ipmasq? This is a major problem for every Linux site with comments (KDE, GNOME, Slashdot, etc.). Ban the name - he changes it. There is hardly anything that can be done.


By C. Evans at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

What we can do, for now, is simply encourage everyone not to respond to trolls. This is hard, I know, because I've tried and failed to keep myself from chewing trolls out. But, if they get no response, then they won't come back.


By Carbon at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

There are only two things that can be done as I see it:

1. Navindra deletes all his troll posts

That's kind of a lot of work for poor Navindra, and he can't monitor the site 24 hours a day for trolls!

2. Readers do something about it

The best option would be for everyone to ignore him, and he would go away. It's not likely though, there's always someone who just has to reply. We could do "Troll Detector" posts all the time, but then we run the risk of getting legitimite posts marked as trolls and generally making dot.kde.org an unpleasant place.

Hopefully he will get bored soon and simply go away, because I don't really see a good way of getting rid of him.


By not me at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

I believe it would be better to implement a moderation system.


By Evandro at Mon, 2001/10/08 - 5:00am

Subject says it all,

for SuSE 7.2 would be convenient!


By yves at Sat, 2001/10/06 - 5:00am

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