FEB
8
2002

KDE Core Services: Trouble In Paradise

As many people will have noticed, things haven't been too rosy in the KDE world
for the last few days. Virtually all of our critical services have been broken,
including cvs, mailing lists, kde.org mail addresses and a number of web sites
(such as developer.kde.org). Unsurprisingly, this has meant that KDE 3.0 Beta
2 (originally scheduled for Monday) has been delayed.

The problems we've been suffering are the result of a number of relatively
trivial problems all occurring simultaneously: a DoS attack meant that some
planned maintenance on cvs.kde.org needed to be performed immediately,
and this took longer than expected because it caused a schedule clash. At the
same time the machine room containing master was being cleared of Polychlorinated
Biphenyls, a toxic group of chemicals leaving no alternative but to take down
the machine (for more info on PCBs see http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pcb/).

Happily, I can now tell you that thanks to a great deal of generosity and hardwork
by David Faure (Mandrake) and the admin team, Dirk Mueller, Adrian Schroeter
(SuSE), Stephan Kulow and Chris Schlaeger (SuSE), we have been able to set up
a replacement cvs server (kindly paid for by IBM) in the SuSE offices. Martin
Konold now has access to master, so mail and other services will be coming
back on line too. In addition, George Staikos can take credit for annoying
encouraging dfaure, and 'making stupid jokes'. ;-)

All of our data is intact, so the new release, while a few days late, will continue
as planned. Things will take a few days to sort themselves out, so please don't
all rush to update at once. Many thanks are due to everyone involved in sorting
this out.

Comments

silly monky lover, dcopc is written in gtk, even the Windowmaker guys are looking seriously at it.

cheers
-ian reinhart geiser
p.s. yes, this was a troll, you are finally getting entertaining.


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

It may be better then good... until you want a different color than the theme's default. Please, by all means, point me to the color selection tool in Gnome (HINT: there isn't one). Also try web browsing in Nautilus and then compare that to Konqueror.

Sure you can make Gnome look pretty - that's never been a problem. However, if you want customization, or a *really* good file manager, or a truly well integrated system - then you should use KDE.

-Tim


By Timothy R. Butler at Fri, 2002/02/08 - 6:00am

"...try web browsing in Nautilus and then compare that to Konqueror..."

Nautilus' browsing capabilities are supposed to be rudimentary. It's more for inline local HTML file browsing than for "real" web usage.

For a fair comparison, try the latest Galeon and try to tell me it's not a seriously cool browser. Not that Konq isn't great too, but Galeon is QUITE formidable.

"...if you want customization, or a *really* good file manager, or a truly well integrated system - then you should use KDE...."

No, one should use what works best for them. Nautilus is fine for my needs, KDE is no more customizable than Gnome in any way that I give a sh*t about, and as for "integration?" Not to troll, but what the hell does "integration" mean anyhow? My gnome apps all use the taskbar, status dock apps all use the same status dock, I can get clickable-URLs from just about every app that displays a URL... is this what you're refering to?

As I said, both desktops are quite advanced, and it really comes down to a matter of taste. This is doubly true because anyone can run KDE *APPS* in Gnome and vice-versa. Where's the problem here? Where's the LOVE? :)

Choice is GOOD, and any advancement made for *either* KDE or Gnome is a WIN for Free software!


By Jens Knutson at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

"For a fair comparison, try the latest Galeon and try to tell me it's not a seriously cool browser."

It's not a seriously cool browser. ;-) Okay, it's fine, but honestly I don't like the way Mozilla-rendered pages look. Konqi in most cases renders pages the way Internet Explorer does (using it's buggy site "fallback" system), which with IE being as popular as it is makes this a *good* thing in my mind. Also I find that Konqueror's interface (being QT rather than Mozilla skinned widgets) is much nicer to work with from an aestics viewpoint.

"KDE is no more customizable than Gnome in any way that I give a sh*t about"

For examples, on the topic of styles. I like Mosfet's Liquid, but I'm not crazy about Mosfet's default color choice. In Gnome that would mean "too bad, so sad - go make your own theme." However, within seconds I can customize the colorings of this theme.
Another good example is that of the KIO-Slave system. I use a lot of scp (Secure cp) and ssh, and so someone was able to create the increadibly nifty KIO-FISH that allows me to seamlessly access my remote host as if it was part of my computer.
There are many other ways you can custom taylor KDE, infact I use many add-ons each day. Also, if you look at apps.kde.com, you will be amazed at just how many ways you can extend KDE.

Finally, I might point out that KDE now has a year on GNOME in respect to official anti-aliasing support. Not that gdkxft isn't great, but how much better is it to be able to configure AA support by just going into KDE Control Center?

"Not to troll, but what the hell does "integration" mean anyhow?"

IMO, integration means that a KWord document gets opened in KWord, a PDF file in KGhostView, and so forth - only they're embedded into Konqi. In other words, I'm referring to KDE's amazingly powerful KParts and DCOP.
I mean, in Gnome, if I want to browse the web, I open Galeon. I have the GTK-like overall look, but all of the forms and scroll bars on the web pages have a completely different look.
It's also worth pointing out that while the KOffice suite is tightly integrated to the point that all the apps can embed into KOShell, Gnome Office is simply a loose grouping of any office-like apps for Gnome.

Just a few thoughts. It's getting late, so I hope I'm still making sense...

-Tim


By Timothy R. Butler at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

>It's not a seriously cool browser. ;-) Okay, it's fine, but honestly I don't >like the way Mozilla-rendered pages look

WHAAT?? Have you tried Galeon/Mozilla? I'm running RedHat 7.2 with Ximian gnome,
and Galeon/Mozilla sure render pages a lot better than Konq... (I mean, on my computer the difference is huge, in favour to mozilla..)

E.


By Eivind at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

I've tried it, but I got very weird results with HTTP POST requests, such as duplicate requests. ;)


By Rob Kaper at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

Yeah, that guy must have posted like 10 times. Sheesh.


By ac at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

:: WHAAT?? Have you tried Galeon/Mozilla?

Yup. And I also like Konqueror's rendering much much better. I also like IE over Netscape, and vanilla over chocolate, a good steak and mixed green salad over any pasta meal, and I prefer to wear comfortable button down shirts rather than cheap t-shirts.

Tastes differ. Some of us just like KHTML better. But, did you know that Konqueror is like Galeon, in that it can use the Mozilla engine for browsing the web? Just go to View | View Mode when looking at an html document or web page, and you can set your preference.

So I can have my blue cheese and mixed greens while you get your lasagna, all in the same restaurant. After all, Konqueror is just a frame for plugins.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

Ick, I'd rather not know that is possible... KHTML (using Konq from KDE-2.2.2) does a much better job on rendering pages than the last version of Moz I tried (i believe 0.9.2)... Moz is supposed to be so standards-compliant, but I find a lot of the CSS2/XHTML1.0 stuff I do in my webpages displays the same in IE, Konq and Opera (the MOST standards-compliant browser), but looks terrible in Moz (on Windows or FreeBSD) and with all the needed fonts installed... and no, I'm not using any MSHTML crap, I'm using straight-up 100% W3C-compliant CSS2 and XHTML1.0... but I do like the tabbed-browsing available in Galeon and Opera (and from what I hear the latest builds of Moz) along w/ a few other features... but like you mentioned, i'd rather wear t-shirts instead of button-downs, and prefer chocolate over vanilla! ; ^ )


By gLaNDix at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

Maybe I should have clarified that I prefer KHTML over Mozilla. :) But my point was, choice is good, as we all have different tastes, and Konqueror gives us choice.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

> Maybe I should have clarified that I prefer KHTML over Mozilla

nope, i completely got that out of your message already... i was just saying that 1.) i agree and 2.) i'd rather not know that Konq can use Moz' rendering engine (gecko, isn't it?) because of point #1... : ^ )

> But my point was, choice is good, as we all have different tastes

nice to see for once on an OpenSource-related website... seems so many people involved in OS software are so bullheaded and close-minded anymore... kinda tired of all the GNOME vs. KDE junk... haven't heard any for a while until i read the comments about the new GNOME screenshot... i've gotta be honest... i like some of the GNOME icons, but i don't like their (at times) lack of consistancy... i like KDE's consistancy... unlike a lot of people in the Computer industry, I like a plain, dull, consistant look rather than a spooky dark look w/ whacked out fonts and kewl icons... but like you said, all different tastes! :^ )


By gLaNDix at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

:: i like some of the GNOME icons, but i don't like their (at times) lack of consistancy... i like KDE's consistancy

As do I. But in the interests of choice, I converted the icons from Gnome to KDE, including the SVG Gorilla theme (KDE version = Kong). But since KDE-Look won't send me my account's password, and the people won't answer emails, I can't upload it. I finished them a couple days ago.

Want the icon theme released? Yell at kde-look. My account is "JabberWokky".

(Also, if you're an icon theme guru, tell me why the "actions" icons don't show up in the toolbar of Konqueror, etc, even though they exist.)

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

That seriously looks nice. I am glad someone is more rational. While everyone else started bashing what I think is a beautiful set of icons (and related bickering) you made (or are making) them available to the rest of us. Thank you. Just one request, If you have not already render them to all the different sizes since I prefer my icons a little bigger.

On a related note, why are the standard kde icons not antialiased (eg the edges of some of the icons are so jagged and garbled looking)?


By idspispopd at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

:: Just one request, If you have not already render them to all the different sizes since I prefer my icons a little bigger.

I have an automated script that rebuilds from the SVGs, so there are 64x64, 48x48, 32x32, 22x22 and 16x16 icons for every single item. This is a semi-temporary solution - I have a mapping file from Gnome -> KDE and Nautilus -> KDE that will allow me to build an import filter into the Icon Contol Center... it will have to wait until after the KDE 3.0 and Gnome 2.0 release (for the source to open up to changes on the KDE side, and for the icon format to finalize on the Gnome side).

Unfortunatly, some things don't map well - In Kong, I had to create five new icons based on the originals to cover some common icons. That throws some doubt at the being able to completely automate the process. Regardless, I should be able to perform conversions fairly quickly with the set of tools I used for Gorilla and Simple.

:: On a related note, why are the standard kde icons not antialiased (eg the edges of some of the icons are so jagged and garbled looking)?

I have all anti-aliasing turned off for a variety of reasons too complex to go into detail right now. Some asthetic, some technical, some temporary, some historical. Heh.

And again, email to KDE-Look is being ignored... feel free to email them telling them to fix the "Send password by email" function. I'm too stubborn to start a new account. ;)

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

:: And again, email to KDE-Look is being ignored... feel free to email them telling them to fix the "Send password by email" function. I'm too stubborn to start a new account. ;)

And of course, 42 minutes ago, it was taken care of. :) Thanks, guys, and look for the icon set to be uploaded in the next minute or two.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

A lot of replies talk about Gnome apps (gimp, abiword) while those apps are in fact GTK-apps, which is a small but significant difference...

Kind regards, Rinse


By rinse at Fri, 2002/02/08 - 6:00am

Hmm..., it almost seems that KDE and GNOME have switched places on the topic of file dialogs. GTK2's new file dialog is supposed to be better, wheras the file dialog in KDE 3 has that nasty "windows quickbar" thing that. Hopefully it's possible to turn that off (I haven't had a chance to compile beta1 yet, but I've seen the screenies...)


By Carbon at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

KDE3 new windows quickbar is something that some of us are looking forward too. Beacuse it means quick accsess to some of the most frequently directorys I\we use.
Just beacuse Microsoft came up with it donsen`t mean that it`s useless. Sometimes it might actually be wery conveniant.

ps:
Forgive my English.


By tjodleiv at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

Well, I find it annoying. I have instant access to my home directory from the toolbar in the file dialog, and root from the pop down. I don't need quick access to any others, and if I did, I'd just create links in my home dir. The windows style quick bar takes up too much space for me. I'm not saying that it's bad or should be removed because M$ came up with it, but I'd like to ask the developers if there's a way to turn it off.


By Carbon at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Just close your left eye to not see it. problem solved.
now back to bashing gnome....


By me at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Well, it is rather nice to put a SFTP link in the quickbar. On the other hand, I had/have those in my bookmarks pull-down in the file dialog as well, so I could live without.


By Rob Kaper at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

Want a nice desktop. Look at this:
http://www.mosfet.org/liquid2.png


By John Herdy at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

My word, thats fucking hideous!


By Erk at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

man you have bad taste in themes, the only thing that looks remotely nice is the translucent kde menu


By rogue at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Nah, I think it looks kewl. There's no such thing as bad taste in themes, because it's all about what the person using the theme likes. You don't have bad taste, you can just have unusual taste.


By Carbon at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Something like http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/images/owen-pixmap-alpha.png is not bad taste, it is ugly. But it was the intention, anyway :)

Oh, and it has alpha transparency and is not KDE ;)


By Company at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

Gnome has always had some excellent artists working for it, and it's looked great as a result. However there's some great stuff in the pipeline for KDE with the work of Everaldo and AntiAlias (and of course the huge amount of effort made by Tackat - cheers!). At the moment KDE is functionally better than Gnome. That goes without saying - we're at 2.2.2, they're at 1.4.x. When Gnome 2 comes out it'll be more or less even again.

But here's the thing. I love KDE. I use it all the time (er, except for right now where I'm using it with Enlightenment 'cause I'm a sucker for translucency). But I use Evolution for my mail - it looks good, is easy to use and has a funky address book (anyone ever think of doing a KOShell clone for Kmail, Korganiser, and the mail book?). I use Dia for all my technical drawing - it's simple, but it's also brilliantly easy for what I want to do. The same with the Gimp. Kivio and Krayon just aren't what I want. KSpread is nowhere near Gnumeric when it comes to export/import or serious scientific spreadsheet work (e.g. mindwarping stats assignments). But I use them both depending on what I want to do.

I don't want to use either KDE or Gnome (or Qt and GTK for that matter). I want to use them both. Both have excellent apps. For my money KDE provides the better overall environment. People bitching about colouring Gnome themes need to calm down, you'll be able to do that when Gnome 2 comes out (around March, same as KDE 3). In fact, March should be a great month from the end-user point of view, as it'll mark a point of substantially closer integration between the two DEs. Hopefully by the following year people will have come up with a common themes format so the differences will become invisible.

Seriously guys, even Slashdot's gotten over the KDE/Gnome thing. This kinda conversation's about as productive as a turnip. Really, what people need to do is to use both apps and environments, see their advantages and disadvantages without going postal, and then ripoff anything that seems like a good idea for their own team ;-)


By Bryan Feeney at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

I wish more people posting here were as level headed as you.

When I first came to linux, migrating from BeOS, I was tinkering around with both GNOME & KDE and decided on the latter simply because the folks using it seemed more adult, less fanatical -- sadly, these days I begin to wonder :(

Why do people act so silly and fanatical about, of all things, the desktop?


By Shamyl Zakariya at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

> Why do people act so silly and fanatical about, of all things, the desktop?

Because you can only run one desktop at one time in contrary to panels, browsers and filemanagers.


By Someone at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

with the configurabilty of gnome and kde today need this really be the case? I mean, wouldn't it be possible to run kde but use nautilus rather than kde as the file manager and make it fit in, or use the gnome panel in kde(still with kde doing all the session management), or use konqueror and the kde panel in gnome eith gnome doing session management, or even have have a nautilus viewers for koffice and konqueror viewers for abiword and gnumeric etc. It would be really great to see more cooperation between the two desktops so that the boundaries could be blurred a little. I guess one major problem is that they use different component architectures...


By me at Tue, 2002/02/12 - 6:00am

i like turnips :-)


By turnip at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Ugly as hell! Seems like a MAC! :((


By Vajsravana at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

i can't believe you kept a straight face while you said that. well beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that


By rogue at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

This is obviously a lie. KDE3B2 got delayed *AGAIN* due to lack of good management inside KDE team. When a project like this with 300 developers around the world gets delayed and dishonours the original schedule, it is proven that Open Source congregations sometimes are not as efficient as real Corporations. KDE this time had a BAD SCHEDULE management and other idiotic steps.


By DB at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

idiot


By hey at Sat, 2002/02/09 - 6:00am

Indeed. If they were a corporation like the Ximian tools, they could have rushed a release out the door to meet the deadline. Go corporatism!


By About Ximian at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

there are many morons floating around at the dot lately. Seems those nice gnome screenshot gave some people balls to start talking. I have only one advice to those: Wait for kde3.


By me at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Many morons eh? Been a blissful long time since we've had to delete comments on the dot. Guess the trolls are back. Sigh.

-N.


By Navindra Umanee at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Ooh, it's the developers fault that the servers went down? For some reason the VA Software guys didn't manage to get the servers running again. And how is it our fault?

There's nothing wrong with the shedule management. Some projects get delayed, but it's a good thing. You don't want to release a bad product?

If you are a GNOME user: Why is it that GNOME 2 is delayed till end march? Also bad shedule management??? It also seems that a bunch of TODO items for GNOME 2 aren't complete yet. Or isn't the list updated? Again bad management... And why does Ximian control GNOME? If Ximian goes bancrupt, GNOME is dead too. Maybe M$ wants to buy Ximian, very nice indeed... Oooh wait, Mono development already belongs to M$. They decide what Mono is going to be.


By KDE User at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

hmmm... i'll agree the original poster was way off the mark, but you're no better. What on earth does kde release schedule have to do with gnome2?
As for ximian, they don't control gnome they do there own releases normally after the main release which have been customized - if they controlled gnome they wouldn't have to, they could do any changes they want in the main release.
If Ximian goes bankrupt then gnome will be in no worse a position than kde is now.
MS buy ximian... right... (maybe you should change your nick to gnome basher)
btw i would guess the original poster didn't have the intelligence to use linux - in gnome or kde, hell he probably has trouble working out how to turn the computer on.


By me at Tue, 2002/02/12 - 6:00am

Real corporations have NEVER missed a target date? It doesn't matter if it's Open Source or software for a fee, there's nothing wrong with not meeting a target date.. unless you're a (corporate) manger but (that) would be your own fault! Instead of blaming KDE project management, praise them for having sense not to release if it's not ready, especially with 300? developers scattered around the world vs. a local cube-farm. Besides, it was just a BETA, not a GA... so shorten the Beta if absolutely necessary. If you work for a corporation that's never delayed a release, consider yourself unbelievably LUCKY!!!


By PsychoDog at Sun, 2002/02/10 - 6:00am

Uh, what an ignorant human being.
Let's look at recent history.

Gnome 2 is coming out about a year and a half later than it was originally supposed to.
Winxp came out 4 months later than it was supposed to.
MacOSX was supposed to come out in the Summer of two years ago, but it came out in April of last year.

Whop-de-farking-do.


By flo. at Mon, 2002/02/11 - 6:00am

Can any mailing-list surfers say how things look for the beta 2 release? Is there a scheduled date?


By cbcbcb at Tue, 2002/02/12 - 6:00am


By Anonymous at Wed, 2002/02/13 - 6:00am

You rock. Mr. Anonymous :)


By elfy at Wed, 2002/02/13 - 6:00am

1) Why are there SDL libs in KDE3 Beta ?
2) Can I install Mandrake RPMs without removing QT2/KDE2 ?


By Julien Olivier at Wed, 2002/02/13 - 6:00am

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