MozillaQuest is running a nice little story on the upcoming Tabs feature in Konqueror. "The K Desktop Environment (KDE) certainly has done lots to narrow the gap between the Linux desktop and the Microsoft Windows desktop. And the addition of tabbed-browsing to KDE's Konqueror browser is one more large step in closing that gap. In our opinion, the K Desktop Environment already is just as good as, if not better than, the MS Windows desktop." Stay tuned for the next alpha!
Dot Categories:
Comments
This is completely irrelevant. Open Source is not motivated in capturing corporate interests, or in looking professional, or in getting good reviews. All these things are nice, but volunteer OSS itself is, pretty much by definition, about coding good software. Whether or not it's applicable to what you'd like to use it for is irrelevant; that's entirely up to the people developing it. If you want to make it better, learn to program and contribute, don't preach on issues you don't seem to have any real understanding of (like, say, implementing an update system, resolving binary incompatabilities, remerging forks, and how developers ought to think about the world).
I figure I will chime in hear, as I am a new user of FreeBSD, and a new user of KDE. (However, I've been writing code for 6 years on windows, so I'm no stranger to compiling...)
First off, all this Linux talk is garbage. There are plenty of operating systems out there that KDE will run on. I happen to like FreeBSD. I wish it would get more respect from you pampered binary Linux guys.
Secondly, I understand all the dependencies and different code base problems that occur during a build. I DON'T think that binaries are the solution on UNIX and Linux. If a distributor wants to make a binary, that's fine, but I will ALWAYS compile my code. It's more efficient and flexible that way. (Although slightly more time consuming in the short term)
Third: All the above is fine and dandy for apps like apache and MySQL, because the code base isn't huge, like KDE. But for KDE, I REALLY think the CVS needs to be broken down into separate applications. Recompiling the entire KDE core and library set is REDICULOUS if all I want is the new version of Konqueror. Konqueror won't conquer ANYTHING if it continues to be built this way.
Fourth: For all of you people who don't like to compile, go use windows. The compiler is what makes Linux and UNIX the excellent platforms they are today.
KDE is not developed as a way to entice users away from windows. It is developed to provide a solid, usable and useful GUI desktop on UNIX systems such as Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc... if that results in people leaving some other system and using KDE, great. but that isn't the main purpose.
now, when you submit your bug report and the developers fix it all they can do is point you to the latest development version to see if it is fixed since binaries aren't built every for every distribution. that is a non-trivial task indeed. if you can't or don't want to check the development in CVS, then you can wait until a packaged alpha, beta or final release becomes available.
but to say that they suck because, although they responded to your report and fixed your bug, they won't provide you personally with a binary of that fix is pretty sad.
I didn't say they suck *scrolling up and down the forum* nope, not once did I say they suck. If they sucked I wouldn't use the K Desktop Environment.
And they didn't fix the bug either, which was the whole point.
I thought you didn't try the CVS? How can you tell it is not fixed?
But why not contributing to KDE? You could provide more information, more help or try a look in the code? I know this is much too hard for most of us, but sometimes new talents appear:-)
As a developers point of view: sometimes it's more fun to add features than to hunt a bug you cannot reproduce. Flaming doesn't help at all and threatening with switching to Gnome as well.
The Gnome people won't provide with binaries either and they would like here a "Thank you", too, as all the other people do spending their free time providing everybody with great software.
I didn't try the CVS. It still isn't fixed in the release AFTER the CVS I was referring to (KDE 3.0.1)
> And they didn't fix the bug either, which was the whole point.
How do you know ? Did you try the current development version ? I think not.
This problem has long been fixed in the development version for the 3.1 release. I presume this is your bug report
http://bugs.kde.org/db/43/43105.html
which was opened on May 26 and the bug was correctly fixed on Jun 09 over a month ago. I just tested it again with webmin-0.990 and it works without a hicup in the current version. Please verify your facts or atleast qualify your statements.
Regards,
Dawit A.
And I have only just been informed via email that the bug report has been closed. Mail received at 05:33 on the 9th July.
This bug was reported by a friend of mine in the early 3.0 betas. It has taken until today to fix it. (You state it was fixed on June the 9th, are u sure u didnt mis read July the 9th? I only got the automated mail closing it just now)
Also, my PC is mainly used for work, I like to have it stable, and I am not blessed with buckets of cash to have lots of PCs, namely one to test software on. So running development releases is not a viable solution. I have occasionally tried beta Red Hat distos and have had my fingers burned.
So I apologise if having a stable PC prevents be from having all the facts. If it was fixed a month ago and not this morning, then I should have had the mail informing me of the fix.
George Staikos wrote on Date: Thu, 30 May 2002:
>[snip]
if you can, try with the latest code in CVS. There was a problem with
persistent SSL connections so we disabled them tonight.
Thanks
--
So, if you are able to use cvs head, you can get the bugfix... or you can wait for 3.1... or you could ask for it to be backported to the 3.0.x series although it might be there now, I don't know.
> and I needed to install the latest CVS to see if they had.
You're talking about #43105? The developer asked you "if you can, try with the latest code in CVS". If you can't, don't do it. If you don't want to help to enhance KDE, feel free to don't do it.
> Sort it out KDE or I am off back to Gnome, ver 2 looks quite nice. A shame really, KDE was looking the most promising of the two.
"I will switch to Gnome if you don't change/implement this", "This is becoming/behaving like MS windows", "KDE is a shame" - do people wonder if these individuals are ignored by developers?
Tabbed browsing isn't going to bridge the gap between Linux and Windows. Apps that work will. I know I know Windows crashes, blah blah but out of the box at least Microsoft manage to get IE to open simple https pages and post forms.
Easy to use apps, easy to install and good documentation will bridge the gap. How about working on that eh? And fix your existing bugs before you go adding new ones, like the afore mentioned webmin problem and the quite frankly sh1t Java support.
Upgrading your software the way Microsoft does with unfixed bugs and new features that may/may not work might seem Windozey, but people can have that already without switching to Linux. We need to break that loop and give them a reason to switch, a better reason that "Well, its free".
Hi,
maybe you are right. There are some bugs I don't like.
But KDE is good in bug fixing. Maybe sometimes you have to ask twice or more but bugs are getting fixed.
In windows I can see a lot of bad bugs and they not get fixed.
Look at the Bug Database, many bugs are fixed.
I am currently running kde from cvs head and it is stable.
It is really good. Don't be so hard.
If you have problems with the documentation, well you can help to make it better. That is the reason why "Well, it's free" is a good reason.
You don't have to be a programer if you want to change the world ;)
have fun
Felix
Don't get me wrong this isn't a Linux v Windows debate. I hate Windows with a passion not necessarily for the OS pros and cons but simply their business practice.
I just feel that a simple bug like the https one with webmin which I reported when KDE 3 was in the alpha stages should not have got as far as version 3.0.1.
Funny you keep talking about that one, i am using webmin and i am using kde 3.0.1 and i have absolutely no problems.
You seem to be complaining a lot that the KDE team dont fix the bugs, but i have only seen you mention one. I use KDE every day, both at work and at home, and i haven't really noticed many bugs, ever really. (i have been using kde since version 1.0) Maybe i have just been lucky, maybe you have just been unlucky, who knows. But as i said, for me KDE has been a stable companion for almost 4 years now. Yes bugs should be fixed, and i think they are being fixed just fine.
Using https and form posting all the time here, mate. Out of the box Konqueror. If you're not happy and know so much, why don't you join and help?
Go and log in to webmin via https. Then tell me all is well.
I have no idea what webmin is and I don't have an account to that site anyway.
Webmin is an excellent web administration tool for Linux available from http://www.webmin.com
A god send to Linux admins imo. It has the capability of using https so you can remotely admin a box over the Internet. Works fine with all other browsers including konq 2. Dont work with Konq 3.
Sounds serious, it should be fixed. Where is the bug report?
I posted it and so did Alex but I am afraid now I no longer have the bug ID I am afraid and have NOT recieved a clsure report to date. I posted it to both KDE and RedHat in case it was their distro, with the same response no one has come back and said it is fixed as yet.
I also posted other bugs some hwere fixed but if I look at the outstanding bug reports for KDE well there are plenty to say the least. Some very old and still exist tom date. All I am saying is lets fix the bugs before adding new features surely this would not be to difficult lets not get into the M$ syndrome "Push it out the door before it is ready I would rather wait for a stable release not let the public beta test it as M$ do.
Surley this is not to much to ask?
As Chris Tucker puts it, "Show me the money!".
There is acutally a bug in openssl where an app using openssl isn't correctly notified, once the ssl connection was shut down. The result of this was, that form data was not resent properly and thus lost.
This bug is still in openssl, but https/konqueror has a workaround since kde 3.0.1. Since then my homebanking works perfectly :-)
Greetings,
eva
Not fixed in webmin tho, still broke. And if it is openssl at fault how come konq 2, moz 1 and opera all work hunky dory?
Works fine here. Mandrake 8.2, KDE 3.0.2
All is well... I JUST tested this now using konqi from KDE 3.0.2.
Not a single problem. Logged in and everything. And am able to post/modify things without a problem... Sounds to me like you have a problem on YOUR machine.
With webmin? over https? (NOTE THE HTTPS it works fine over normal port 80)
YES!! HTTPS... Yes, I CAN read...
Oh and yes, it was webmin....
Just to be perfectly clear here...
It was https://:10000/. And yes, it worked properly.... Hell, I noticed that I still had postgres database enabled. Fixed that right up.
Sounds to me that the problem is somewhere between chair and keyboard...
doesn't work for me either but it also does't work with Mozilla, so the problem might be somewhere else.
So 2 people have confirmed that it works, and this guy has ruined an entire discussion bashing KDE for supposedly not fixing a bug. Lots of negativity, little love...
Let's face it: KDE is not VERY user focussed. This is not bad. It's just how it is.
I mean, you still have to be a bit "tricky". You won't find X11 configuration tools or binaries from KDE, but it's ok as its their decission. Try to find a decent distro,.... THe problem is that a normal user will never realise how good is KDE because the user will try to use the Kontrol Center to change resolution or will try to download a patch from KDE.org, or install a KDE app double clicking it after having downloaded from KDE, etc....
Honestly I find it pretty good and I would like more integration with any distro, but after talking to some KDE developers I know we will never get something as user friendly as windows or Mac.
But, we cannot tell them what to do as we are users!!! I mean we are not spending our hours working as they do.
It's just something that they deliver and we can take it or not, but NEVER criticize... It's not what everybody wants but after some training you can learn howto solve all the dependencies with rpm -Uvh, etc...
I have, I am no Linux newby. I am speaking on behalf of all those that I would love to see flock to Linux.
If I get some spare time I'll look into writing a python script or something that pulls stuff from CVS and installs it.
I made a perl script that did this in like 5 minutes. (well, 10, i overengineered it a bit so i can see the status on a web page)
its not hard, it basically just loops over each directory, making sure to take arts first, then kdelibs, and does:
cvs update
make -f Makefile.cvs
./configure --some options here
make all install
Really, its thats simple.
Have you posted this on freshmeat or somewhere? Sounds good.
No, it is too hacky for that :) It works for me, but cant be customized at all without editing the perl file. I tried a script written by someone else that was supposed to make it easy to do, but i couldnt figure out how to use it, which is why i made my own :-)
But i guess with a little work the options could be placed in a config file which would get rid of that problem.
(troels, obviously this is not written to you, but rather to the gentleperson (and their company) who complains that KDE doesn't release packages or install scripts):
It's already done, anyway...
Just go to the Control Center, choose "Software" and "Online Update". You can set it to "Automatic", and it will just upgrade all your packages for you. If you don't have that, you're not using SuSE... which is my point:
This stuff is very distro specific. Most every distro has a way of handling software updates. In SuSE's case, it's right in the KDE Control Center, making it easy for users. Why is it different between distros?
Well, that's simple - because that's the whole *point* of a "disto" - distributing software. They are the glue to hold everything together. That's their job, that's what they do, and that's what several of them are very very good at.
So when you say "Why isn't anybody packaging this" or "Why isn't anybody making it so I just press a button and have the latest version"... you are ignoring the fact that that is the *precise* reason distros exist, both community based ones and corporate based ones.
It's like you're asking "when will Linux support keyboards?". Have you plugged one in? "No". Well... "when will someone distibute these?" Have you tried going to a distributor? "No".
Yearg. This topic drives me nuts at times.
--
Evan
The point I make is not that KDE is bad or Gnome or any Linux app but I see the trend to push it out the door before it is really ready.
I am no newbie to Linux either I have used Linux for about 8 years now and over the last couple it has improved tremendously but the only thing that ever crashes my box is X applications whether it is KDE, Gnome or whatever.
Lets face it though we all like a nice desktop even if mc is my file manager of choice the good old command prompt does not persaude Joe Bloggs CEO of Duff Computers INC to move to Linux on all his desktops.
I am a user you are a user and so are we all but look we have got so far it is our OS not RedHats or Mandrakes or whoever surely we can persaude them all to get together and combine there knowledge to produce a standard format for updates? It may be apt my favourite or rpm but whatever all use the same the same kernel etc so it makes it easy to do updates as above.
They can all add their own nice little extras but lets get a standard together. The other thing is I cannot post Like this to M$ as they would not listen it would go in file 13:-) It may fall on deaf ears here but at least I get to say my piece.
*Distributions won't agree on having a common standard. (RedHat and Mandrake are not with UnitedLinux)
*KDE won't agree on delivering binaries.
Linux/BSB/free soft in general is "tiring"....It's not easy and nobody agrees on howto solve it...
When something really needs to get fixed it's not, and this is tiring... We have been waiting for more than a year now for a REALLY fast konqueror, some people is waiting for bug fixes, and KDE developers like adding features. And this is tiring...
It's because they develop for fun and this is the way it has to be. But it's not compatible with what joe users want...
That's why I like looking at places like openbeos.org, reactos.org, some time ago freedows, etc.. Allways looking for a joe user THING.
This might be what a lot of us are waiting for. And this is not a TROLL, really.
> Distributions won't agree on having a common standard
http://www.linuxbase.org
> KDE won't agree on delivering binaries.
no, instead they work with the vendors to do so. this works much better for everyone. suggesting that KDE provide binaries would be a worse solution than what exists now.
> When something really needs to get fixed it's not,
please take a look at the number of bugs that get closed on bugs.kde.org, please take a look at how things such as java script support, WYSIWYG printing in KWord, IMAP and SMTP AUTH in KMail, etc, etc, etc improved. these things take time, yes. but they do get addressed, and they do get fixed.
> been waiting for more than a year now for a REALLY fast konqueror,
and you got it. do you mean fast loading? well, that's up to the gcc people, and they've fixed quite a bit of that problem with gcc3.1 and are working on the remainder of the problem.
> some people is waiting for bug fixes, and KDE developers like adding
> features
as Sad Eagle said, the fellow who wrote tabbed browsing was new to KDE devel. this was his first contribution ever, and it may well be his only to date. it didn't subtract anything from the KDE momentum, but rather it added to it. removing tabbed browsing wouldn't have helped fix any other bugs.
the same or similar can be said for nearly all the other new features.
that said, you do realize that KDE spends great stretches of time in "no new features" (aka "freeze") state, right? the only development that actually happens during those feature freezes (which can last from several weeks to several months!) are bug fixes. 3.0.1 and 3.0.2 were also bug-fix-and-better-translations-only releases. this alone discounts your entire "they don't fix bugs" complaint-fest.
> That's why I like looking at places like openbeos.org, reactos.org, some
> time ago freedows, etc..
and yet KDE provides more than any of those do or probably ever will. perhaps this model of development actually works after all.
> And this is tiring...
no, what is tiring is your particular brand of ignorance, unrealistic expectations and FUD
Ok... I shut up my mouth
I was talking in general about linux world, but I mixed it all with KDE.
Yes! KDE is a big and good project and the more you give the more I want :-(
Sorry for being so rude and thanks for your reply.
It does sound like a troll however, but im gonna try to make a civilized responce anyway :-)
*It doesnt matter if the distributions agree, just pick one and ignore the rest. It might matter for commerical software vendors, but then again, it seems like lokis games and other software, like opera and netscape, works just fine on all distros.
*Why on earth should KDE make binaries? The distros are making the needed binaries, if you need different binaries then switch to a distro that supplies them. Its that simple. Which version of KDE lacks binary packages? (except CVS, but if you cant compile it yourself then you probably shouldnt be running it in the first place)
I find it funny that you think linux is not easy. I think i have used linux and windows about equally much by now, and i find that linux is in many ways far easier to use than windows.
Things that really need fixing are fixed. If they arent then the chance is that it wasnt really all that serious.
My konqueror starts in less than 2 seconds and the interface is very responsive, i dont see the problem. On some older hardware maybe, but i find the performance exactable on this 233 MHz PII box. (though it does take about 6 seconds to start, but this is partly because it is compiled with standard (low) optimzations)
I think it is extremely ironic that you complain that KDE is not doing what you want, and then point at BeOS as what the average user wants. I have a feeling that you are really talking about what YOU want.
I want a flexible, integrated system that can be tailored to my needs and let me get my work done in an effective manor that doesn't stress my body too much. (carpal tunnel sundrome, etc). linux + kde is what i have found does this best for me. So i plainly started using kde because i liked it as a user. I have recently started to play around with the code because i also happen to like the platform as a programmer, but that was just recently.
Mandrake : "urpmi kdegames"
Debian : "apt-get install kdegames"
Gentoo : "emerge kdegames"
....
Oh !!! That's very difficult :)
> Tabbed browsing isn't going to bridge the gap between Linux and Windows. Apps
> that work will. I know I know Windows crashes, blah blah but out of the box
> at least Microsoft manage to get IE to open simple https pages and post forms.
What does the first have to do with the latter one?
Get yourself a new Box of SuSE (surely also RH, MDK, Deb etc....) and you will be able to do _everything_ you can do with a freshly installed W2k, esp, your mentioned opening of https-pages and forms.....And: who cares about Windows anyways?
> Easy to use apps, easy to install and good documentation will bridge the gap.
> How about working on that eh? And fix your existing bugs before you go adding
> new ones, like the afore mentioned webmin problem and the quite frankly sh1t
> Java support.
Hmm, if every OpenSource Project would have stopped evolution until EVERY bug was fixed, we would surely crawl around with sh, sed, awk etc. and not more.
> Upgrading your software the way Microsoft does with unfixed bugs and new
> features that may/may not work might seem Windozey, but people can have that
> already without switching to Linux. We need to break that loop and give them
> a reason to switch, a better reason that "Well, its free".
OK, so propose a good way kde could build an update mechanism (better: create it). I'm using FreeBSD, so I upgrade everything with portinstall/portupgrade. So I want a button "Update KDE" which uses portinstall. Fine. Somebody else using debian needs that button which triggers apt-get, the SuSE-user would need the button to trigger Yast Online Update, and the user of this-brandnewish-linux-distro would need the button relying on the brandnewish-update-tool.
So why not leave that Stuff to the Distributors and blame _them_ for not beeing able to give the user a nice update mechanism (btw: I think most distros have a more or less good working update mechanism)?
See, why KDE won't ever provide binaries?
Cheers
So people have been clamouring for Tabs in Konqueror for months. Dot posts an article that focuses on the good news, and this is nothing but flames?
Wow people, show some love.
Appearently, the dominant attitude is "we deserve something for nothing".
Tabbed browsing is great. People love it. I doubt it is going to make anyone change their desktop though... :-)
I think the problem is that features like this get over emphasised, while all the good work behind the scenes maintaining the sources is passed over. We need some balance here...
I fell in love with tabbed browsing in Mozilla and was really hoping that Konq adopted that feature. I've also got my fingers crossed that Group Bookmarks comes to Konq along with tabbed browsing.
In Mozilla, I have a group bookmark labelled "Comics" (and several others, too) on my Personal Toolbar. Clicking on it opens 20 tabs at once and loads all the web comics that I regularly read. The "News" group bookmark does the same for my news sites.
The combination of tabbed browsing and group bookmarks is a great enhancement to my net experience.
Now if only Konqueror could be forced to ignore site-specified font sizes so that I can read many sites, I would never load another browser. As it stands now, I'm using Mozilla for most of my browsing because I can't read the tiny fonts that many sites use that Konqueror refuses to enlarge. And www.kde.org is one of them! On first loading, the fonts are readable, displaying at my set font sizes. However, it quickly switches to much tinier fonts, ones (pixel based?) that "Increase Font Sizes" is ineffectual in rendering. All that does is increase spacing between paragraphs.
OH WOW.. I gotta go try this!!! :D Never did that before...
And like you, at the moment, I use galeon (in this case) as my main browser and not konqi. :( I think I'm gonna go grab the latest CVS and see how it behaves...
I'm pretty sure you could do something like that in konqueror already. Just open up all those comic sites in different tabs, then go to save view profile (in the window menu in 3.0, but it was moved to settings in the CVS). Anyway save it as comics. So now you can just do load view profile comics and it will bring them all up. I'm not sure if that is exactly what you are looking for but, it seems to work and is real easy to do.
I am not alone in my opinions, :)
http://www.pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2685