SEP
23
2002

Outlook Competition: Enter Kroupware and Kaplan

It has been a long time dream of the
KDE PIM team to be able to integrate the different PIM applications into one common interface shell that would permit the creation of an Outlook-like application and provide a fully integrated personal information management system. Development of such an application is in fact rapidly picking up steam. In particular, the
Kroupware Project, part of a full-blown open-source groupware solution for KDE and commissioned by the German government, was pre-announced and has already generated a flow of ideas and code. Karl-Heinz Zimmer showed a prototype of KOrganizer embedded in KMail:
kroupware1,
kroupware2.

But Don Sanders, KMail hacker, went one step further. He managed to transform KMail into a KPart and demonstrated how the different PIM components can be embedded in the pre-existing framework by Matthias Hoelzer-Kluepfel and Daniel Molkentin known as Kaplan:
kaplan1,
kaplan2,
kaplan3.
Great work that proves, once again, that the KPart architecture is sound and gives tangible results. Expect the first official results of the Kroupware project on October 15th.

Comments

>> In "sextant" there is "sex".
> For you...

Wrong, not just for me, look:

First letter: "s"
Second letter: "e"
Third letter: "x"

It make s...e...x -> "sex"

You see ? It's not just for me, it's for everybody who can read.

And, BTW, even if that doesn't seem to contain any sexual connotation for you, I still don't see the relation between email communication and a "sextant", may it be sexual or not.


By Julien Olivier at Mon, 2002/09/30 - 5:00am

:: And, BTW, even if that doesn't seem to contain any sexual connotation for you, I still don't see the relation between email communication and a "sextant", may it be sexual or not.

Sextant has no sexual connotations that I am aware of, in slang, common usage, or technical usage. A sextant is often pictured in splash screens (didn't Netscape Navigator have one for quite awhile?), or to invoke a nautical/exploration feel.

sextant
n 1: a unit of angular distance equal to 60 degrees
2: a measuring instrument for measuring the angular distance
between celestial objects; resembles an octant

If you are hung up on the first few letters or the sound of the word, I'd hate to see your reaction to such everyday words as dictionary, cunning, continue, shatterproof, fuchisa, pistol, pistachio, piston or booboo, or your horrified reaction to a woman who has sextuplets. Especially if her hair is kinky.

As for the relation, I don't think it's to email per se, but rather to the concept of a PIM package letting you "know where you are", the same thing a sextant does. Plus, as stated earlier, they look great on a splashscreen as they are decorative, old-fashioned, and "warm" in feel. A compass would be another similar item.

Incidently, I hate to say this, but I just punched Foresight into kdict (is that another sexually suggestive application name?), and got this as a return:

Foresight

A software product from Nu Thena providing
graphical modelling tools for high level system design and
simulation.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/09/30 - 5:00am

> If you are hung up on the first few letters or the sound of the word, I'd hate to see your reaction to such everyday words as dictionary, cunning, continue, shatterproof, fuchisa, pistol, pistachio, piston or booboo, or your horrified reaction to a woman who has sextuplets. Especially if her hair is kinky.

In fact, I'm not shocked by such names at all. The problem is just that I think people who don't like, or don't like it to be liked, will make bad jokes using the name of the product, ala "Internet Exploder". I just a name which can't be easily changed into something ridiculous or rude, etc... and if kdict was a more important project (such as a web browser or a mail client), it would probably be called kdick by those who hate it. So, yes, that would be a bad name IMO, even if the name in itself doesn't contain sexual connotation.


By Julien Olivier at Mon, 2002/09/30 - 5:00am

Come up with a name that can't be converted into a rude, crude or lewd variant. I'll bet you you can't. Explorer, as you say, becomes Exploder. Does that mean that Explorer is a bad name? No. It just means that people are cunning linguists and will pervert any name to ridicule something. (ahem).

15 plus years of Rocky Horror has taught me that *anything* can be perverted in jest. For that matter, a half hour on a elementary school playground should show you that such 'creative renaming' is pretty much taught at a very early age.

Foresight -> Foreshaft, Foreskin, Foreplay, Soresight, Soreblight, Coresight (if it crashes), etc. (Soreblight. I like that one. Right up there with Microflaccid).

Any name will be perverted. Don't worry about it.

:: even if the name in itself doesn't contain sexual connotation.

It doesn't. Or at least no more than Foreskin does. Oops. I mean Foreshaft. Darn it, I mean Foresight. Whatever. You get the idea. It's *you* that sees the sexual connotation - I didn't even think of it when I saw the word - the image that lept into *my* mind was a nifty nautical splash screen with an antique sextant overlaid against an old map (I like old maps). I never even began to connect it with sex. So... who has the dirty mind, eh?

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/09/30 - 5:00am

OK you're right.

Maybe I'm just a perverse :)


By Julien Olivier at Mon, 2002/09/30 - 5:00am

sorry - that is much to easy. Although all names can bring wrong connotations, that does not mean that all do it equally well. In giving a name one should look out for the most obvious unwanted connotations. "Foreskin" is an example of a far-fetched connotation in my opinion....

Too bad "Foresight" is taken though :(


By will at Mon, 2002/10/07 - 5:00am

In swedish the word "sextant" consists of two words, "sex" and "old woman".
I think that is a really funny name! Just wanted you all to know...


By Honken at Sat, 2002/11/02 - 6:00am

Sex is positive... :-)


By Jens at Sun, 2002/10/06 - 5:00am

....nah seriously, don't call it anything starting with a K - enough of that already. Let's get abstract...

Motion, Motionware, connect, connectus, Konnect(!), connectware, Konnectware(!), Share!, Communicate!, Kommunicate!(!), Inform, Expound, InMotion, @Share, Etecetera.

Just some possibities. Sorry, I don't like Foresight, and I'm fairly sure that is the name of a software product already.
T


By Thorsten Hitler at Wed, 2002/09/25 - 5:00am

> Motionware

Cool


By KDE User at Wed, 2002/09/25 - 5:00am

> Motionware
Heh what a komedian!

KoMedian sounds better than Noatun BTW


By ac at Fri, 2002/09/27 - 5:00am

Another good name: KDE Personal Insight (courtesy of wbsoft)

Or would this give copright conflicts with other Insight applications?

Other idea, just call it PIM
KDE Personal Information Management

Rinse


By rinse at Fri, 2002/09/27 - 5:00am

I am having withdrawals without it.


By Frank Rizzo at Wed, 2002/09/25 - 5:00am

Well, that sucks donkey crap. Back to crack then.


By Frank Rizzo at Thu, 2002/09/26 - 5:00am

Since there is much talk about the typical KDE convention to start program names with a K, I figured I'd start a thread dedicated to just that. To start off, here is my take on it:

I think the 'K' naming scheme was at one time appropriate, as it easily showed that an application was developed for KDE. I think it has gone on too far though, with some people stretching too far to come up with more K names. I like some of the names, like Konqueror and Kontour, and things like KMail and KMix are fairly intuitive. But I think that the best sign that the K naming scheme is inappropriate for the audience KDE is expanding into is the fact that many desktop oriented distributions are renaming the KDE menu items to show more generic terms like Internet Dialer and Browser. I think that whether we like it or not the beef against the K naming scheme must be a valid one, because these distros are trying to act based on consumer preferences and customer demand. It seems that there are enough people seeing this to be a problem to warrent some real discussion on the issue.


By anon at Wed, 2002/09/25 - 5:00am

You are confusing descriptive names like "Browser", etc., and application names like "Konqueror". In the menus the descriptive names should be shown so that new users know which of the applications listed in the menu is the browser. This is already done by default. OTOH each application has to have a unique name. We can't simply call for example "Konqueror" "browser" because there are many browsers out there. One way to create a unique application name is to simply prepend a 'K'. So we could have called Konqueror "KBrowser". Some would probably have said that this isn't very creative. But we have KMail, KAddressbook, KAlarm, KOrganizer, KDevelop, KWrite, KEdit, etc. So either many developers aren't very creative or they didn't see the need for a fancy name. Whatever ...

Basically we have two ways to choose a name for a new application.
a) We simply prepend a 'K' to a descriptive name. So in this particular case the application could be called KGroupware or KPIM (which isn't as appropriate as KGroupware since Kroupware isn't a _personal_ IM but a _group_ IM).
b) We come up with a nice unique name. Of course this name doesn't have to have a 'k' in it. It's nice if a good name which starts with a 'K' is found. But IMO the 'k' must not be a requirement. Instead the name should be easily pronounceable in many different languages which means for example that ideally it shouldn't contain any consecutive consonants in one syllable because at least Spanish and Japanese native speakers have a hard time pronouncing consecutive consonants.

Just my 2¢
Ingo


By Ingo Klöcker at Thu, 2002/09/26 - 5:00am

What I find missing with Kroupware is a writeable adressbook in LDAP. This should be implemented so it is possible to have ones own adressbook accross mail clients and also in webmail (f.x. horde has a very nice LDAP-adressbook app).


By tarjei at Thu, 2002/09/26 - 5:00am

I have found a simular project for KDE 2:
http://www.shadowcom.net/Software/infusion/index.html


By tofu at Fri, 2002/09/27 - 5:00am

neat


By fault at Fri, 2002/09/27 - 5:00am

But how will it be with the speed... KDE is wonderfull, in no time it is up, and in now time I can read my e-mail, but have worked a little in KDE with Evolution (So I do not know how it is Gnome where it is made for) but I had the greatest difficulty to read some graphical mail... And no, my processor is not slow, my ram is not low and my Modem is not analog... So...
By the way, how many people does really need an implemented client?" So still let us have the chance to use parts independent of each other...

Greetz

Winux
- The virus who eats both ways -


By Winux at Fri, 2002/09/27 - 5:00am

I need it. A open groupware solution will give Linux more chances in the "closed source world".

If I ask my boss to switch the clients to Linux I get one answer: Outlook, Exchange (and other programs ;)).

So if I am able to use Exchange or a Server that can do things like Exchange without spending a lot of money in new software: I can switch to Linux or I have better chances for that.

That is more than only useful, it is great !

have fun
Felix


By hal at Sun, 2002/09/29 - 5:00am

But how will it be with the speed... KDE is wonderfull, in no time it is up, and in now time I can read my e-mail, but have worked a little in KDE with Evolution (So I do not know how it is Gnome where it is made for) but I had the greatest difficulty to read some graphical mail... And no, my processor is not slow, my ram is not low and my Modem is not analog... So...
By the way, how many people does really need an implemented client?" So still let us have the chance to use parts independent of each other...

Greetz

Winux
- The virus who eats both ways -


By Winux at Fri, 2002/09/27 - 5:00am

I find the project very interesting, and clearly there is a lot
of people esp. in the Windows world that use Outlook as both an organizer and
a mail/news client. But I can't help wondering if it is a step towards the
right direction. The Unix philosophy is "small and simple tools for each job that can be easily combined to take care of a more sophisticated job".

So far KDE has worked under the terms of this philosophy.
We have a mail reader for reading mail, a news reader for reading news,
an Organizer for organizing, a Ghostscript viewer for GS viewing etc.
(granted, Konqueror can view just about anything but this doesn't happen
by giving it zillions of features, but by giving it the ability to
cooperate easily and transparently with other, external applications or
modules (e.g. IOSlaves)).

Even if this can be sacrificed because of the merits of integration, I just
don't see what mail, news and schedules have in common, besides being
one's "personal information" (and news is not even that). Which one of
us keeps their postal mail in their organizer?

Just my $0.02 guys, I really don't mean to upset anyone.


By Dimitris Kameno... at Fri, 2002/09/27 - 5:00am

This is the *nix philosophy - each component is a KPart which can theoretically be run by itself. Now I'm personally of the opinion that KOffice Workspace and this are duplicates, and a much better solution would be to create an 'Outlook/KO Workspace' style application that can be configured to have icons on the right for various applications, all of which run inside the body of the program. Then you just have a couple of Profiles (a la View Profiles in Konqueror), default ones like "PIM Center" (with KMail, KOrganizer, KNotes, KAddressbook), "KOffice Workspace" (with KWord, KSpread, KPresenter, etc), and "Communications Center" (with KMail, KAddressbook, KNode, Kopete, KSIRC and KHTML).

In other words, a framework for KParts, much like Konqueror but with an alternate UI oriented towards an 'Outlook/Workspace' interface. Make it generic, ship with a couple common profiles, and let people add and edit their own. (As a disclaimer I yet to try Kaplan out, and that's what I'm hoping it already is - it frustrated me that KOffice Workspace can't be arbatrarily edited and various profiles stored).

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Sat, 2002/09/28 - 5:00am

> This is the *nix philosophy - each component is a KPart which can
> theoretically be run by itself.

For the kaplan approach I completely agree, except there's nothing theoretical about being able to run the parts by themselves for KMail, KOrganizer and KAddressbook it's reality.

> Now I'm personally of the opinion that KOffice Workspace and this are
> duplicates, and a much better solution would be to create an 'Outlook/KO
> Workspace' style application

I can vaguely remember myself posting to kde-? stating something similar that really I only need one application, that application being a container for all the other applications I commonly use. I've seen others independently come up with the same idea.

Kaplan isn't a universal container but if you look at the Kaplan code which is not much code at all then you can see how easy it is to add new parts which is what I did for KMail.

I guess the only modification you would need to Kaplan to make it a universal container is to find a way to automatically find the large size icon for an arbitrary part and make a part browser to select and add new parts.

Don.


By Don at Sun, 2002/09/29 - 5:00am

> I can vaguely remember myself posting to kde-? stating something similar that really I only need one application, that application being a container for all the other applications I commonly use. I've seen others independently come up with the same idea.

Don,

I disagree with such an approach. If you want just one "application", you already have it with the windowmanager.

The other side is that PIM and office are different in the way I work with it. PIMs are rather workflow or informationflow applications and office are document centric.
Where do you need a MDI in PIM? Never, but for office applications it makes (sometimes) sence, if you want to compare 2 documents, want to copy/paste or whatever comes to your mind.
There is one area where both have a common need: Revision control if there is a need for workflow of documents. But this doesn't justify to unify everything in one application (which itself is again the windowmanager).

What I hate most is when documents are embedded in emails (or invitings), which some collegues often use in our company. What to do with such an email? Shall I save it to disc to keep it's documentation status?

If you want to make a frame, then make it at least a frame which fits for the purpose.

Philipp


By Philppp at Mon, 2002/09/30 - 5:00am

> I disagree with such an approach. If you want just one "application",
> you already have it with the windowmanager.

I'm not suggesting that KDE applications will stop working as standalone programs. By the way things are playing out it looks like KDE users will get the best of both worlds, that is applications that can be embedded in a container app or used separately, and those applications will interoperate either way.

Don.


By Don at Tue, 2002/10/01 - 5:00am

Hi,
The beauty of the KParts architecture is that embedding KMail, KOrganizer, etc.. in one framework is just one option.
All the current applications will continue their life as standalone applications. Kaplan is just another option for users who like the all-in-one integrated option. If you only want a mail client, you will go on using KMail alone with less bloat.

Kaplan is also an open framework. One could think of a large set of different PIM applications that you could put together in Kaplan like lego bricks. It is a very powerful concept. I don't know if Evolution works in the same way : each component is a Bonobo part.
Cheers,
Charles


By Charles de Miramon at Sat, 2002/09/28 - 5:00am

I see people talk about why there needs to be a tightly integrated client that combines email, calendaring, address book, etc.... In a larger office environment people need to use shared calendaring. For shared calendaring to work there needs to be a conduit to move information between the clients. The mail transport system is the best way to implement that since we already have the conduit available. People also want to be able to easily chose the persons to schedule for meetings. The email system has a directory available of all the users. It is inefficient to create multiple directories and will cause directories with missing information or increase administration costs significantly. Running separate applications will only work if there can be an underlying connector that all applications can easily attach to.

One of the biggest problems with adoption of Linux on the desktop is that you have to be a guru to get much of the system to work with any sort of integration and ease. Most users want something much easier than that.


By TheRustyCook at Tue, 2003/07/29 - 5:00am

Make a KDE program like GIMP !!!


By Anonymous at Sat, 2002/09/28 - 5:00am

The GIMP Project is making GIMP for KDE !!!

(...and we're still waiting for it. :) )

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Sat, 2002/09/28 - 5:00am

Is there any work on separating the GIMP-code from the GUI-toolkit code?


By KDE User at Sat, 2002/09/28 - 5:00am

I've heard many times that v2 of the Gimp will be toolkit independent, but also that v2 is like Mozilla 1.0 was - really dern slow in getting here.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Sun, 2002/09/29 - 5:00am

Why should you want this?

There is no problem at all running the GTK-based GIMP on KDE environments. I don't see the point to start developping such a beast as it already exist. Better improve GIMP on the field of pre-press work (CMYK separation support etc.).

Just my two EUR 0.02.


By JEL at Wed, 2002/10/09 - 5:00am

I understand that making apps that look and feel like a popular operating system's apps will help potential users of KDE migrate, but we have to consider one thing: as long as imitation is our game, we will NEVER be ahead. You can't copy ahead. It just doesn't work. Now I know that there are many innovations in the KDE world, like KParts, and that is great, but I would like to see more. I certainly do not think that MS creates perfect programs, therefore I don't want to copy them, or even want to have those mutant clones on my KDE box.

I feel there is a lot of innovation left in the realm of user experience. I am currently working on a new way of navigating through the data on my computer. Notice I said "data". Any data. Anything that is stored on my machine should be accessible without having to remember which folder it's in, and what is the proper app to open it. No more "/home/mp/projects/mushroom/06-12-01/other/pics/0001231-01.jpg" Yechh! Unfortunately I am in the very early stages of this project, but email me if interested.


By mp at Sun, 2002/09/29 - 5:00am

There is an equivalent for KParts in the MS Windows world. This is no innovation. But there are innovations, e.g. that the "Overwrite" dialog when copying/moving images shows you more information about the files like resolution and previews.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/09/29 - 5:00am

What has happened to apps.kde.com?


By KDe User at Tue, 2002/10/01 - 5:00am

and speakers of other languages as well.

croup
n 1: a disease of infants and young children; harsh coughing and
hoarseness and fever and difficult breathing [syn: spasmodic
laryngitis]
2: the part of a quadruped that corresponds to the human
buttocks [syn: hindquarters, croupe, rump]

Kroup sounds like croup and reminds me of near death of infants and smelly behinds. ....

Sheesh why not call it "Poonomia"?


By Dictionary_Enforcer at Wed, 2002/10/02 - 5:00am

I have to admit that I actually do not care a bit about the name as long as it 100% compliant and does what's it supposed to do.

Just my point of view.


By ekstam at Tue, 2003/04/29 - 5:00am

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