MAY
9
2003

KDE-CVS-Digest for May 9, 2003

KOffice developers have added a
number of templates to KSpread, while work
towards Excel compatibility continues. KStars now has a telescope hardware interface.
The KWin and KDesktop fine-tuning continues, as well as the work on implementing freedesktop.org standards. Read it all in the latest KDE-CVS-Digest.

Comments

I just want to thank Derek for the work that he puts into the cvs digest. It is the highlight of my week reading it (usually on a saturday morning cos I'm in South Africa so I'm GMT +2). Anyway thanks a lot. And yeah I can't believe there weren't any posts before me today. =)

Luke


By luke randall at Fri, 2003/05/09 - 5:00am

Yes, today you're the first one. We see. I think it is better that you didn't give a chance to the being-first-mads.
Oh, of course they were also the first ones between millions of sperma and this should make them happy and happy and happy.


By New Era at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

eh eh eh good one :)
> Oh, of course they were also the first ones between millions of sperma and this should make them happy and happy and happy.
and yes thank's for the digest it really saves the day - again.
cya zero08


By zero08 at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

'It is the highlight of my week reading it...'

Reading CVS digests is highlight of your week reading? How boring your life must be ;-)


By anon at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

Logical deduction ..

Reading the CVS digest is the highlight of his week.
Life is lived through weeks.

Conclusion: Reading the CVS digest is the highlight of his life!!


By feedTheTroll at Tue, 2003/05/13 - 5:00am

I haven't thanked Derek before, but I will now. I read it compulsively every week and contributes towards that Friday feeling. Thanks for all the work you do it's much appreciated!


By mxcl at Fri, 2003/05/09 - 5:00am

hey, i get the same Friday feeling too with the CVS digest!!! Nice to know there are people as geeky as me, probably more so. :-)

Anyways, thanks Derek. I have never said thanks before, and have been really only a heavy kde user since Dec 2002. It's so awesome :-)


By *nixnewbie at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

> Luboš Luňák committed a change to kdeextragear-2/kile

Kile in kde-cvs? great news! i've been waiting for an update for one of my favorite apps. thx!


By lite at Fri, 2003/05/09 - 5:00am

Hope next step will be including lyx with the Qt frontend.... and .... a merge? Uhmmmm.... kile's great interface and flexibility+ lyx's wysiwyg style....That could be quite interesting ;-)

Well, first, lyx, Qt, XFree, the distros or whoever is responsible should have all those font issues fixed. I had to install the ttf fonts and the poor konqui shows some webpages in greek now. Luckily I don't like those pages :-D


By Unai at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am


By KDE User at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

If you mean that I should help with it.... I'm in trouble. I'd like to, since I like the tool a lot, but I just started a new project, and I don't think I have time to support the two of them when I have already enough with one:

http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/krecipes


By Unai at Mon, 2003/05/12 - 5:00am

This is the high light of all my fridays =)


By Alex at Fri, 2003/05/09 - 5:00am

dang that sucks


By standsolid at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

Beep, there was a oGALAXYo in my view sometimes. Beep, I can't get any signals from that oGALAXYo for a long time. Beep, is there a problem with my space mirrors and lenses or that strange oGALAXYo disappeared from the KDE universe?
Who knows, that oGALAXYo may be gone to another universe to code with his lovely :) GTK+.
Yes he is a fan of KDE, even a programmer, but in KDE CVS nobody can see his name. (I am glancing, I couldn't ) Because he has no free time, he continues programming with GTK+.
A few comments to Ali, exGNOME user (?), oGALAXYo:
Ayinesi istir kisinin lafa bakilmaz, sahsin gorunur rutbe-i akli eserinde. (Ziya Pasa)
Bizim kumesten yem yiyip komsunun kumesine yumurtlamak...


By oHUBBLEo at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

Why don't you simply do a google search if you miss him so much? Trolling was never his purpose so why should he continue writing here and at other places if everything he writes is perceived as only that, trolling?


By Datschge at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

I was only kidding. I really want to see his comments. He was writing the longest replies and after that big arguments were starting.
But I really wonder and with my special comments I tried to learn that if he is a KDE hacker? Because he seems to be a good (perhaps advanced) programmer.


By oHUBBLEo at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

No, he's (still) a Gnome hacker while using KDE on his desktop as well sometimes. As I said do a google search for him. =P


By Datschge at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

He was never a Gnome hacker. If you want to find him just look at anon and KDE User below.


By Anne-Marie Mahfouf at Sat, 2003/05/17 - 5:00am

personally he was annoying and i'm quite glad to see that
he's no longer posting. several bug reports from him were
so arrogant and self-righteous that i felt on occasions like
simply removing them, even though there was a partial truth
to them :(

and no, he wasn't a kde hacker either.

mvg,
Alex


By Alex at Sat, 2003/05/17 - 5:00am

What was that? Didn't anybody install spamassassin in dot.kde? ;-)


By Unai at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

http://www.gnomedesktop.com/article.php?sid=1112&mode=thread&order=0 (changes JUST from the latest snapshot!!!)

I think GNOME is actually progressing faster than KDE after looking through the change logs. I really wish KDE would take GNOME's approach and put usabiltiy first and features second. KDE also needs to attract more new developers, by improving the base technologies, having Qt integration and GREATELY improving that POS documentation which is now in the KDE developers corner. Almost everything there is obsolete or poorly/insufficently explained, not many people will want to develop for KDE with THAT documentation. I think its as important as the tools themeselves, what good are tools if you don't know how to use them.

Check out KDE-LOOK and check out ART.GNOME.org its a perfect example of the 2 DEs. KDE LOok relies on more advanced technology, yet ART.GNOME.org is more usable because the entries are hand picked for one thing.

Usability and lack of good documentationn for developers and users is what drags it down the most. For example check out the innovative search utility in the latest GNOME snapshot and compare it to KDE's CVS search tool. GNOME's is much nicer and more elegant IMO.

BTW: Having daily spanshots is a great idea, KDE should do this too like every 2 weeks, that would keep the community more involved. Also speedwise this latest Snapsot is actually faster than KDE CVS on my computer. (also the dot.kde newsfeed on KDE-LOok and kde.org seems to be broken.


By mario at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

> I think GNOME is actually progressing faster than KDE after looking through the change logs.

Strip the description, documentation and translation sections over there and compare it with the *weekly* CVS-Digests here.

> I really wish KDE would take GNOME's approach and put usabiltiy first and features second.

I don't see "usability" mentioned once in the log you refer to but a lot of new features.


By Anonymous at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

Forget the second, grepping for "HIG" shows one (and not more) person working on it.


By Anonymous at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

KDE also needs to attract more new developers, by improving the base technologies, having Qt integration and GREATELY improving that POS documentation which is now in the KDE developers corner

Which KDE project are you describing? The one I know does not fit this description at all.

+ KDE needs to attract new developers: I agree that lots of developers are a good thing ,but we already do have a lot. Sure more would be nice, but why do we NEED to attract more? Don't forget the fundamental difference between KDE and GNOME: KDE is primarily developed by a volunteer community; GNOME is primarily developed by employees of linux companies, as part of their jobs. So to say KDE NEEDS to do anything is kind of weird.

+ KDE needs to imporve the base technologies. uh, that's a joke, right? KParts, DCOP, C++, etc...

+ Qt integration. It must be another joke. Since you are from GNOME, I'll explain something about C++ to you called class inheritance. It's a great way to re-use code and extend the functionality of existing classes/widgets. KDE makes prolific use of Qt's excellent libraries by inheriting from Qt classes to make KDE classes with extra functionality. Qt is everywhere in KDE, they could not possibly be more tightly integrated.

+ Poor API documentation. Well, maybe for very new classes, the docs haven't caught up yet. That's what happens when development is so fast, I guess :)

Check out KDE-LOOK and check out ART.GNOME.org its a perfect example of the 2 DEs. KDE LOok relies on more advanced technology, yet ART.GNOME.org is more usable because the entries are hand picked for one thing.

To me, this difference nicely illustrated fundamental contrasts between KDE and GNOME. Your version of kde-look has hand-picked entries, whereas anyone can submit something to kde-look and then the community votes on them. It's a really great example of our two communities. Have fun in the Cathedral, mario; I prefer the bazaar!


By LMCBoy at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

>Since you are from GNOME, I'll explain something...
Oh boy! In that dot news, if anybody writes about GNOME then he is perceived as a GNOME fan.
I never use GNOME, I really like KDE; but I beleive that GNOME is changing faster. Also some GNOME applications are really good. Do we have project manager like MrProject, or a GNOME meeting etc?


By New Era at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

> Do we have project manager like MrProject, or a GNOME meeting etc?

There are http://www.koffice.org/kplato/ and http://www.wirlab.net/kphone/ projects.


By Anonymous at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

1. KPlato? Do you know the status of it?
http://www.koffice.org/kplato/current.phtml
Look at it. It's Last modified August 12 2002 23:53:49
Will it be ready in KOffice 1.3? Simply "NO".
2. KPhone? Visit the http://www.wirlab.net/kphone/changes-3.1.html (The latest version) There is:
{
Important note!
Video call has been successfully tested only with certain Debian
distributions. Thus the video call support should be considered
only partial at the moment. You need to download the VIC software
separately (look at the INSTALL file in KPhone package) and use
the scripts provided to compile and install it.
Any resources with the video call development are welcome ...
}
But GNOME Meeting is really stable. Good luck for KPhone.


By New Era at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

KPlato is slowly but steadily developed (http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-cvs&w=2&r=1&s=kplato&q=b). In my impression MrProject development has slowed down recently. And has GnomeMeeting good codes? I read "no". So stable, but not good. May I in return ask you for a mature Gnome presentation program or TeX editor?


By Anonymous at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

Ooops, I'm not Gnomist.:) I only like some Gnome programs.
>good codes?
I'm a user. For me usability and stability is important. Not code. I can easily use it and I like it.
If KPlato comes with KOffice and works good, of course I will use it. Because it will be integrated with other KOffice programs. But not now!
>mature Gnome presentation program?
Ok, everyone knows that Gnome doesn't have good office applications. Gnumeric is a bit good but not as KSpread.


By New Era at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

What do you mean by "good codes"? Do you mean good codecs? or good C code?
I'm interested to know where you read the code was not good, if you are talking about it of course.


By Me at Tue, 2003/05/20 - 5:00am

I wanted to write "codecs".


By Anonymous at Tue, 2003/05/20 - 5:00am

GnomeMeeting has the best codecs available in the Open Source world... right, it doesn't provide patented codecs, but there is nothing they can do about that except going into illegality or selling plugins.


By Me at Tue, 2003/05/20 - 5:00am

If you are not a gnomist, why are you making excuses for mario's post that has been refuted point by point by LMCBoy? And then you make accusations that everyone thinks you are gnomist? Sad.


By anon at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

>If you are not a gnomist, why are you making excuses for mario's post...
You proved my idea :"Oh boy! In that dot news, if anybody writes about GNOME then he is perceived as a GNOME fan." Thanks ;)
Of course I don't make accusations.
> LMCBoy? I don't know the meaning of it.


By New Era at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

Then read it and think about, then maybe you will know the meaning of it. Instead of posting trolls here because you don't know the meaning...


By anon at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

Wow, you're very aggressive.
I lately saw that LMCBoy is his name.
Don't get angry we're only talking.


By New Era at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

I only hope you now realise that your words that GNOME is progressing faster than KDE was a troll.


By anon at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

OK. Bye.


By New Era at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

I was not trolling, by mentioning that I THINK GNOME is now being developed faster than KDE. Its just what I'm seeing from the snapshots, all the changes I showed you on that link are only from the previous snapshot which is released daily. I was bringing it to your attention, it seems only a mention of GNOME will summon calls of "troll" here.


By mario at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

You are trolling because the snapshot is not released daily, and not even weekly as mentioned. When you are objective and compare to KDE, GNOME progress seems quite slow.


By anon at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

Ok, what I was describing was the integration between Qt applications like Opera or Quanta Gold (I know our Quanta is better) and KDE. Qt applications are just as integrated in KDE as they are in GNOME. For example, they don't even use KDE's awesome file dialog. IMO, Trolltech really needs to fix this.

Look, its always good to attract more developers and tehre will always be a need for more skilled developers, by "needs" I'm just saying waht IMO would be good for KDE.

No that was not a joke, KDE should improve the base technologies, while tehy are excellent and probably some of the best on Linux, there are always things to improve. They can be optimized, made more intuitive to use, include BETTER DOCUMENTATION and so on. Now, just because KDe already has good technology don't become so arrogant and pretend its perfect, or competing technologies will catch up while you have your head high in the clouds.

You also don't seem to understand my point. KDE-look has an almost useless voting systema llowing you to vote only good or bad and also vote many times, it can be easily abused. What I was trying to say is that GNOME development seems to be more disciplined, and while not always on the bleeding edge it generally implements what it has better for the average user.

You really have to understand that I want the best for KDE, and being arrogant like that will not help anyone. You may pretned nothign I mentioned exists, but it will only hurt KDE in the long run.

BTW: This is the poor obsolte documentation i was reffering to http://developer.kde.org/documentation/index.html


By mario at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

> BTW: This is the poor obsolte documentation i was reffering to http://developer.kde.org/documentation/index.html

You are very welcome to update it.


By André Somers at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

"You are very welcome to update it!"

You think anyone has the skills to do that. I don't know KDE's apis or Kparts, or DCOP or even Qt. I'm just starting to learn C++ and I was curiously looking through it and noticed it was obsolete.

I'm glad not every KDE user is so arrogant and completely discards criticism.


By mario at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

KDE is a true community effort, there is no part where you are being excluded if you want to contribute. What you do now is pointing to some generic pages and shouting "it's outdated", it should be obvious even to you that nobody is knowing what you are exactly talking about. So you are welcome to update it yourself since only you yourself can know what you yourself think is outdated.

Again: You are very welcome to update it, correct it yourself or point others to the parts you are sure are outdated now so they can correct it. Usually this all is only a matter of minutes, no reason at all to go over the top and talking about "arrogant" and "completely discards criticism".


By Datschge at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

No, I don't think anybody has the skills to do that. However, noone has the skills to know what documentation exaclty you are talking about that is supposed to be outdated. What's more, since you are seemingly just starting to learn your way into C++, KDE and Qt, how would you know that it is outdated at all? The fact that a technology was introduced back in the 2.x days doesn't mean that it isn't used anymore. This is certainly true of stuff like KParts and DCOP. If the principles are still the same, why should the docs change?
Also, there are still people working on the 2.x series, or at least making sure their software will compile and run on it. Is it so strange to have the docs still available for them?

If you really find an error in the docs, please report it as a bug if you can't fix it yourself. complaining about it here probably won't do any good.


By André Somers at Mon, 2003/05/12 - 5:00am

No, I don't think anybody has the skills to do that. However, noone has the skills to know what documentation exaclty you are talking about that is supposed to be outdated. What's more, since you are seemingly just starting to learn your way into C++, KDE and Qt, how would you know that it is outdated at all? The fact that a technology was introduced back in the 2.x days doesn't mean that it isn't used anymore. This is certainly true of stuff like KParts and DCOP. If the principles are still the same, why should the docs change?
Also, there are still people working on the 2.x series, or at least making sure their software will compile and run on it. Is it so strange to have the docs still available for them?

If you really find an error in the docs, please report it as a bug if you can't fix it yourself. complaining about it here probably won't do any good.

Oh, and by the way, please refrain from calling names. I don't like to be called arrogant on a public forum like this. You seem to pretend you know a whole lot about me. You don't.


By André Somers at Mon, 2003/05/12 - 5:00am

No that was not a joke, KDE should improve the base technologies, while tehy are excellent and probably some of the best on Linux, there are always things to improve.

What do you think developers are doing all the time?
Even if KDE development would be slower than Gnomes (which I dont believe), complaining wont help getting more work done. Helping does.


By AC at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

>Ok, what I was describing was the integration between Qt applications like Opera or Quanta
>Gold (I know our Quanta is better) and KDE. Qt applications are just as integrated in KDE as
>they are in GNOME. For example, they don't even use KDE's awesome file dialog. IMO,
>Trolltech really needs to fix this.

And how do you think that should work? It's a cyclic dependancy (KDE requires Qt requires KDE...), kinda the chicken-egg problem. We had that with KDE support in designer back in KDE 2.x times and it was a pain in the butt. Again: it's non-trivial to get that right. Yet we will hopefully be able to address that in Nove Hrady, see http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/novehrady/2003-April/000048.html.

Cheers,
Daniel


By Daniel Molkentin at Sun, 2003/05/11 - 5:00am

> http://www.gnomedesktop.com/article.php?sid=1112&mode=thread&order=0 (changes JUST from the latest snapshot!!!)

Uh.. the time period for that snapshot far eclipses the time period for this week's CVS digest.

> Almost everything there is obsolete or poorly/insufficently explained, not many people will want to develop for KDE with THAT documentation

Well, I've been writing an application recently that had both gtk and qt frontends (with optional KDE and GNOME intregration support.) I'll have to agree with you that there is a lot of obsolete information in developer.kde.org. Some of it was written during the KDE 2.x era, and is simply not applicable now. Hmm.. perhaps I should open up a few bugs.kde.org reports :-)

On the other hand, most developers will primarily use the API reference. In terms of this, the KDE API reference still covers more of its API than GNOM does with its. I also still like the Qt docs better than the Gtk+ reference guide.

> Having daily spanshots is a great idea, KDE should do this too like every 2 weeks, that would keep the community more involved

Well, KDE used to have these kinds of "development-branch" releases back before KDE 2.0. It was well... extraneous. Most people used CVS anyways, because once snapshots were released, things were quickly changed in CVS (keep in mind that the CVS digest only covers some of what goes on in KDE cvs.. you'll have to follow the kde-cvs mailing list for it all..) This made many bug reports from development snapshots useless.


By fault at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

Often easier than writing bug reports about documentation is to fix it directly. AFAIK everybody with CVS access can edit files on developer.kde.org, its content is in the CVS module of the same name. If you dont have a CVS account, drop by on #kde-devel and ask somebody to apply a patch.
Most 2.x documentation is not obsolete though. But somebody must change the version number...


By Tim Jansen at Sat, 2003/05/10 - 5:00am

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