In this week's Digest: It's been a very busy week. Some new applications: Knot,
a service location server, Kickme, a lightweight DCOP messenger and event viewer,
an LDAP kioslave, KWiFiManager, for monitoring wireless cards,
the new Plastik widget style,
an SNMP plugin for KSim.
aRts adds
Media Application Server output support.
KDevelop adds Haskell and Mozilla XUL language support.
KStars supports electrical telescope focusers. Security fixes for KDM.
KAddressBook has phone calling support.
Spell checking support in KOffice is complete, and improved elsewhere. The
KitchenSync plugin is added to Kontact.
KOrganizer printing system is improved.
Safari render_layer code is ported to KHTML.
More new CrystalSVG icons. Improvements for running KDE on laptops. And a huge number of bugfixes.
KDE-CVS-Digest for August 29, 2003
Dot Categories:
Comments
I thought Europeans were open-minded to other's viewpoints...at least that's what you've been telling conservatives for many years, right?
I consider myself a typical american, so I'll respond to your points:
- he certainly likes "spray cheese"
no, I don't.
- he thinks Michael Moore must be shut up and go to jail forever
no, he has an absolute right to speak his mind and say whatever he wants. However, he does not have a right to an audience and I have a right to not listen to him at all.
- he thinks GWB is great, honest, competent and elected
yeah, i do. compared to clinton? even more.
- he had no strange feeling when he read "united we stand, in god we trust"
I do a little bit, just because I wouldn't want muslim stuff pushed onto me.
- he is perfectly fine with the following sentence (about us people)
"How can anyboy hate us? we are the greatest people in the world!"
I don't think we are the greatest people, but I think we are the greatest country. I know why people hate us. Most other countries are jealous of our country, because their socialist government couldn't outpace capitalism.
- he knows that the us army, day by day fights against evil terrorists in iraq, as shown on cnn every day.
I know that, but because I have a friend in Iraq, and I know they are not there just to steal the oil.
Well, one could debate all the things you DID agree to.
I dunno what 'spray cheese' means, so I'll refrain from giving a comment on that.
1)Michel Moore: well, no1 would dispute that people have the right not to go see anyone or anything. However, if a person doesn't want to see something, they usually have a reason. In Michel Moore's case, it probably will have something to do with his sarcastic view on certain aspects of USA-life. Such a way of getting critique is often hard to swallow for those that are patriotic-shallow-minded. If anybody would make the same sort of criticism in my copuntry, I would welcome it. So, while it's the audiance right to go/listen or not, it's also a clear sign how close-minded they are; the level is equal to that of being able to accept, or at least doing the trouble of hearing what other people have to say.
On the other hand, you could just not like people with big noses or something, so it's for yourself to make out how valid my remark is.
2)GWB: well, it's in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I would argue that he certainly doesn't seem honest and competent. I dunno about great; it depends on how you define it. If somebody is great by manipulating the people, for instance, that term might apply. But for 'honest': a mere history of seeing his 'oil'-dealings before he got president indicates that being honest is not his strong point. As for competent...well, he's competent enough to start a war on grounds that were flimsy and untrue at best... so maybe one could argue he is competent too, yes.
In any case, he was not elected (in a democratic way), if one accepts that a person which the majority of the people voted for, should become their elected representative. Of course, if you use the premise that it's not necessary to have the majority of the voters, then you could call it 'elected'. But in that view, it could be argued that Sadam got elected too.
3)It's not a ne necessity to have the hand of God above your head, for not wanting to be shoved muslim-faith onto you. In fact, if fear for that is the main reason why you want to 'trust in god', then it's a sad thing. Also, I never understood the reasoning of the 'God with us'. If God was truelly with the USA, why did he let the suicide bombers destroy the twin-towers? Couldn't an almighty god find another way of getting a message through? And what about the people in Iraq? I'm sure they praise and ask for protection of God too; does God chooses sides? In EVERY war BOTH parties always claimed god was on their side...well, you know what? If god would exist, he would get very tired of that. Sentences like 'God is with us' are arrogant and only a sign of self-rightious people who think that they are right, and the rest is wrong...or maybe they don't think (for themselves) at all.
4)Heh. 'We are not the greatest people, but we live in the greatest country'... doesn't that seem like, a litle odd? What do you mean, then, by 'greatest country'? That it's the biggest land-area, it has the highest mountains, the grass is always greener? I don't think so. Isn't it the people that make a country great? So, in effect, you are saying the people are the greatest, but indirectly. Yet you stated you aren't. It's a fine contradiction. And, once more it shows a distressing amount of arogance and little kids-fighting: 'You are saying that because you are jealous!' Yeah, right. I don't think any country in europe (and many others in the world) would want to be the USA, dude. What most USA-dudes seem to miss, is that we don't like the USA, not because of what it is, but because of what it does. It's not jealousy of the country, it's anger of the way you behave towards the rest of the world. But you guys never seem to realise that. It's like: 'but what is good for the USA, is good for the world'. You simply can not fathom that other people have other views of how to deal with the world, and if it doesn't suit the USA, you are one of the 'bad' guys. The comparison between the roman empire and the usa is not farfetched: both were world powers, and both regarded the rest of the world as or babaric, or as vasal-states. And what Rome decided, was the only thing that mattered.
It seems that in 2000 years, people have changed little.
5)Your last remark is the funniest: 'not just to steal oil'...not JUST to steal oil? So you concede stealing their oil was partly the reason, at least, then? ;-) Yeah, and the other reason was the weapons of mass-destruction: which are nowhere to be found. And the AL-quada connection; which even the CIA themselves say there is not a shred of evidence for that. O yeah, and Saddam was a brutal dictator...while true, if that would be a reason to invade a country, one should invade at least a dozen countries more in that regio alone. But, strangely enough, the USA seems to have no trouble in actively supporting brutal dictators, as long as it suits them. The moment they don't serve them anymore, however, then suddenly their former allies become vile dictators who must be removed from power. Right.
With so little self(country)-criticism, it's no wonder you don't like what Moore says.
>>It's not jealousy of the country, it's anger of the way you behave towards the rest of the world.<<
The jealousy is also limited, for instance, by the economic conditions in the USA. It's hard to believe for europeans that there are western countries where people need to work two fulltime (minimum-wage) jobs just to support their kids, and don't even have a health insurance.. it's part of the concept that some people suffer and some people are extremely rich, but in the eyes of many the US are too extreme, and not only in this aspect.
There is, of course, jealousy for specific things, like the US military. But in general I just feel sorry for the people.
"I couldn't have written any of those apps without the US Army's protection." I was wondering, when you chaps/ladies write apps for KDE in Europe does the European army protect you? I didn't know it was that dangerous writing software. I know this is the wrong place to say it buy my 2cents worth USA/Bush got into the war to settle an old score or for oil or any other wrong reason, but at the end of the day the people will be better off with out a dictator. So I hope for the people of Iraq they have a free and safe future. I personally would be interested in any one from Iraq informing me if they are happy or do feel better off. I've never been to USA, lets face it Captilistic countries offer Dugs, greed etc, but I would have all of that because it does offer a special thing call freedom & I do think that is worth fighting for. Regards Jim
> Capitalistic countries ... offer a special thing call freedom
Not so fast pal. You might need to rethink a little bit.
Capitalism does not imply freedom, if it means that
you can pay for restricting the freedom of others,
that is, buy others freedom.
Example:
In some countries, everyone is free to walk through forests,
do camping, enjoy the land, feel free.
In other countries. The owner of that land might put a fence
around the whole area, or kill you for trespassing.
Which one is more capitalistic? Which one is more free?
You're right I choose my words wrong, I should have said, with all the wrong things about democratic countries they do have one good thing & that is freedom of speech as a posed to what Iran had, they had a dictator. And please don't get me wrong I'm not a blind idiot to thinks Bush went in to Iraq to save the people from a dictator, but I am glad to see that they will have freedom of speech and a way of life at last & that's got to be better than what they had. My views on software is, file formats should be open source, companies should sell there products due to quality not because they have some closed format, I know people like to rave about big bad Microsoft, but the big cost to companies is all the other companies selling closed software, (what is the saying binary= golden hadcuffs). I'm also for distributions making profits on suppling a good service. Regards Jim
Where did he go, I can't seeem to be able to aces shis website for a couple of weeks and I don't see him anywhere, anyone have any information about him?
reward $100 USD
ALIVE
He announced that he would moving his website to an other server.
You can access http://www.mosfet.org/liquid.html, but not index.html.
Yeah, but his mosfet.arklinux.org is down too, what happened? Anyone, got his e-mail so I can ask him?
...we should have also linked to http://www.hakubi.us/amazon/ as a good absurd example how software patents can affect KDE. Just so you know, that patent is not only valid in the US but has already been granted in the EU as well even though their was no justification for it law wise, the possible upcoming EU patent law would give just that. That's why KDE among many other software projects (which often enough did so supporting their European contributors even if they were a minority) needed to protest against it.
I respect Neil for his ability to give a different point of view when people expect it the least, I just wish he'd not be that shortsighted and pigheaded in choosing what, when and how to do so.
For the KDE project, protesting software patents are entirely consistent with remaining apolitical. For the KDE project, software patents aren't a political matter, but a matter of self interest. Thus, its no different from commercial companies lobbying governments when particular laws could have a big impact on them.
To NEIL:
I understand what you're saying, but I think that is
quite different.
More than 600 websites of which many include important
OSS projects such as GNOME.ORG have participated in
this protest against patents in the EU.
Furthermore, this patent law will significantly affect
the OSS world and therefore it is of great interest
for KDE, GNOME, GIMP.ORG, Autopackage.org etc. to see
this law get shot down.
The US army does not affect OS software in any major
way and there is nothing the user can do anyway. KDE
called for action to actually make a difference, if
they were to be passive saying something like "The
new European patent law sucks ass!" and that was the
entire message, not asking people to try and shoot
down the law than I'm sure there would have been a lot
of negative reaction. Since saying this does not do
anything about the problem.
But, the biggest difference is again, that your thanks
to the army was actually in the credits of KDE
software while the US army didn't actually contribute
anything to your projects. Its the same as if I listed
my programming teacher, my parents for giving me a home,
the local police for keeping me safe, the fire department for
keeping me safe also, GCC team for giving me a great
compiler for my software etc. at the credits of my software,
while he didn't directly have anything to do with it.
On the other hand this new law will impact OSS so it
is of much interest to everyone. It would not offend
KDE users or developers since if they are using KDE
they obviously don't want it to go away and this law
would hurt it.
Also, the protest only lasted a day (the website was
also still accessible through another address) and it
was a website not actual KDE software.
And as many others have mentioned, it was KDE's own
interest to participate in the protest, since KDE and
other OSS projects are facing problems because of abusive
software patents. KDE would have participated in a
demonstration like this regardless of what country would
have wanted to introduced this law.
It is just like businesses will support laws that will
make their profits higher.
This is *no* move away from a no-politics policy.
Your comment about the army was actually part of KDE
software and so if I installed the VS version of your
software I would have that comment for the entire time
I had that software installed.
ok, maybe it's just that i am thik-headed or something, but i can't seem to figure out what's wrong with software patents... someone please enlighten me as I am really confused on this issue and why it's such a big deal... i mean, if some wants to protect what they invented, what's wrong with it?
eh, maybe it's newbism...
afaik it's not in general against patents... (I still think that we should rethink that "intellectual property" stuff, esp. in fields like the human dna)
o
_software_ patents tend to be very "cloudy" and have numerous side-effects on other not directly related parts of the IT. I think the reason may be the character of a software patent as it's more an attempt to protect a general "idea" than an actual solution to a specific problem (at least that's the case for a lot of already existing software patents)
-> this is different from e.g. engineering patents where it's almost always possible to come up with a different solution to a problem without violating existing patents.
o
the evolution of software used to be faster than e.g. in mechanical engineering or other creative classes.... the actual proposal for a new legislative (in Europe) does not take this into account. The life-span of a software patent seems to be too long (this would hinder future developments in this field or at least introduce an inaccaptable delay)
note: this is _my_ point of view. Try google for (unbiased) information on this topic...
The problem is not the patent in it self, but the patent bureau.
To get a patent, your new invention must reach a certain level
of "new-value". That is, it must be something not too small
inventionwise.
So when a patent bureau gives Amazon.com a patent for
1-click-shopping they argue that this "invention" has a sufficient
level of "new-value" which it, of course, does not.
But how could the bureau have known? They were probably
not software engineers.
Now, deciding that "pure computer programs" can not be patented
clearly reduces the risk of this mistake by bureaus.
However, linking the computer program to something else,
some machine etc, might be sufficient for reaching the "new-value"
level. So computer programs are not totally banned.
The "not pure computer programs" clause is about to be removed.
I don't know how software patents (i.e. patents on logic, thinking, etc.) and freedom get together.
That's why they are bad.
I would also state that logic (and because of that software) is prefigured by itself, it cannot be invented.
And furthermore, the code itself is protected by copyright.
A software application is just like a painting.
You have the tools make it.
You cannot patent the tools nor the result.
But you have the copyright.
The problem with software patents is that not a software (the specific implementation itself) is patented, this would rather be a case for the copyright. However, the method that the software implements is being patented.
Thus, for a filecopy program you will file a patent for what it does - copying files. The patent is then also narrowed down on the specific method you implement but usually everybody tries to make their patents as broad as possible.
Now imagine patents would pass for all programs that exist, it would in the future hardly allow you to even access your computer without paying for it.
What about KWinTv? Is this application on anybody's screen? I'd like to be able to use a neat kde app instead of the old xawtv...
I'm using it right now, because XawTV for some reason crashes my box, and zapping (a gtk app) sucks.
Actually, I am using qtvision, the latest rewrite. Seems to work just fine.
There are a few GUI bugs I'm aware of (especially with ATI cards) but as my TV card is broken, I can't fix them. :-(
Rich.
If they are in bugs.kde.org and they are rather simple stuff, I can take a look. If they aren't there, just email me.
I am learning the thing anyway, because I am developing a security camera applciation for a client, and I am basically just multiplying qtvision by 4 :-)
Unfortunatly, George Staikos is busy working with so many parts of KDE (everything from SSL stuff to kwallet), that I suspect he is too busy to work on kwintv atm.
See for yourself:
http://the-amazing.us/simplyamerican/2172/
So, because KDE-folks do not like it when people use the project as a tool for political proganda, it gets labeled as "anti-american"? Mr. Stevens should have the right to put his propaganda in to KDE, otherwise KDE is anti-amercan?
Also note how he comments that it's OK to me "European political statements" in KDE (well, the website actually)? I wouldn't call the patent-protest an "European" protest, but rather a software-protest that goes beyond national borders. It just happens to be relevant in Europe right now.
Protesting against software-patents does not mean that you could also use the project to further your own unrelated propaganda.
Neil Stevens: Just what is your malfunction (apart from being a flag-waving jingoist)? I find it rather pathetic that when you are denied the right to use KDE as a vessel for your political BS, you start whining how you are an innocent victom of an anti-american witch-hunt or something.
What do you suggest KDE to do in order not to be "anti-american"? Fill the codebase with comments that glorify USA and it's armed-forces, is that it?
Seriously, I find your whining to be sad and pathetic.
Neil just follows George W. Bush directive:
Those that are not with us are against us.
KDE - The Desktop Of Evil
Ok, before I've said good things about Neil, but now really this is too much... I honestly thought that nobody with half a brain could actually be this stupid. It's really scary, the guy has some serious problems.
> KDE should be renamed OEDE: Old Europe Desktop Environment
Hehe. Quite funny. :-D
How old is this Neil? Surely he is still in his teens. His behavior is more likely related to some kind of personality disorder. It is no use discussing any of his topics, since no logic or reasoning can be applied to it.
You mean like most people on this site who bash him? Neil did what he did to make a *Statement* about what he saw as a double standard. That's it. It's his right to be able to make such a statement. It doesn't mean anyone has to agree with the statement though. As an actual contributor to free software, (no some user who is getting a free software lunch), I believe that if you want to use software that I have spent hours, days, etc of my time working on, you can accept it in the manner I write and present it and use it for free. Or, fork it and fix it if you don't like it. But don't come whining to me about not liking who or what I put in the contributors section.
Sheldon.
Oh do grow up. Stop rationalizing a try looking at where he is coming from. Maybe he has a point. Maybe he is misunderstanding the situation. If you don't like what he puts in his software then don't use it. But if you do use it, shut up.
"Oh do grow up."
I think it's Neil who should "grow up". I wasn't the one who wrote comments on how KDE is this and that, or how Neil is "anti-Europe". But Neil did. He thinks that since KDE does not praise USA (it doesn't praise Europe either), it must be anti-USA. Like I said, Neil needs to grow up.
"Stop rationalizing a try looking at where he is coming from. Maybe he has a point."
That KDE should not protest against software-patents (espesially if the protest takes place in, shock and horror, Europe!)? After all, software-patents have NOTHING to vdo with KDE, whereas glorious US Army has EVERYTHING to do with KDE, right?
No, he has no point. He has exactly ZERO point.
"Maybe he is misunderstanding the situation"
He sure is. And I'm not surprised. The best thing I remember him from is his constant whining on how bad things are in KDE. With friend like him, who needs enemies?
"If you don't like what he puts in his software then don't use it. But if you do use it, shut up."
Obviously I'm not the only one who disliked his comments, since the comments were removed? And, being childish as he is, he removed his software from CVS.
This is very intresting: "More new CrystalSVG icons."
Does anyone know anything more about this / where can i find info about the new icons; where can i read more about new CrystalSVG?
I'm writing this to all the thoughtless anonymous cowards out there who think there is a place for intolerance in a project like KDE. By now most people have some idea of the incident with Neil Stevens, though obviously many didn't take the time to figure out what it was really about. I don't want to argue it. I disagree with Neil on this and I feel his extreme tendencies are abrasive, however I respect him and his opinion. While I would not be found agreeing with him on this I also would not dismiss things he says out of hand. Neil seems to think there is an anti-American sentiment with KDE but I don't see that among developers. He does seem to bring it out in anonymous posters though.
Over the last two days I've tried a number of times to type responses to several posts that I felt were particularly offensive. The problem is that I believe it is best to continue the honorable practice of not using my position as a project leader in KDE as a platform for devisive ideologies that are not directly relevent to the project. What upsets me is that I am in fact a politically moderate to conservative American, a US Navy veteran and a patriot who very much loves my country. I also detest the practice of parroting misleading sound bites with the arrogance of moral superiority. Of course "political correctness" grants it's practitioners that anyone not in agreement is a morally inferior barbarian. I happen to enjoy a good debate with people I can respect and who will respect me, regardless of how much we disagree on. That is because I'm civilized. However anyone who calls me a flag waving jingoist to my face should first consider their ability to sustain equal or greater abuse.
The big problem with Neil's protest is that he chose to use a political reference which is inappropriate, and I don't care to discuss motivations or particulars. What I would like to say is that everyone who used this as an opportunity to state their dislike for America, or the even more rediculous assertion that those of us who live here and have any national pride are "pathetic" or otherwise mentally defective, are in fact hypocrites! Anyone who seriously hopes to maintain any high moral ground would, by definition, NOT engage in the behavior they are critisizing. As someone who tests everything he hears to see if it rings true I witnessed a number of statements which I could spend an inordinate amount of time thoroughly trashing in a reasonable debate... but reasonable people don't make unreasonable statements and therefore it is irrational to expect people making emotional statements to actually be impressed by a reasonable argument.
I would like to appeal the the better nature of KDE users and ask people to stop multiplying offenses by seeing how much they can offend others in turn. It's beyond unattractive. I'd especially like to suggest an end to hypocracy and some degree of humility. If we want to make the Dot an open forum let's at least show a little decency. If nothing else it will help you look to be more gracious after someone shreds your assertions like a mouse in a cuisinart and hands you your head. The misuse of the the term fascist to describe the US demonstrates the complete lack of any internalized awareness of what fascism is and is akin to confusing the NAACP with the KKK. Having talked with people who lived in fascist regimes, like Pol Pot which was known as the killing fields, or contemplating 30 million dead in Europe in the 1940s, it hardly seems like a word to use carelessly.
I get a lot of really positive feedback from the community. I don't care what nationality anyone is who wishes to be involved in our project, but I do expect they will, and should, be proud of where they live. If I honestly thought that most of the people who used Quanta would be hostile towards me if I was only an American, and not the Quanta project leader, I would seriously question my commitments. Not because of nationality, but because of irrational bigotry. To succeed as a project we must be willing to see past the differences of our leaders and embrace each other across national borders. For those people hostile towards ANY nationality (or anyone being proud of their nation and heritage) I invite you to either grow up and get a mature attitude or go somewhere else and stop causing trouble. I would like to think a little more highly of people posting on the Dot.
I've read through most of the threads in this article and I get the impression that there seems to be a consensus to refuse _any_ political statements (here on the dot and of course in about-dialogs in kde) e.g. I've found two posts here which can be characterized as anti-american, but in both cases there are numerous replies rejecting these political statements along with a call to the (political motivated) poster to go somewhere else.
The majority seems to be intelligent and sensible enough to be make kde "fortified" against political infiltration regardless if it's from from right or from left or from pro- or anti-americanism, pro-europe or anti-europe... etc. (this is not contradictory to the fact that most _do_ have a political opinion they stand up for, but they may choose a political forum to make them heard)
p.s.: I agree with you that you can only accept others the way they are if you accept yourself (including your nationality ... in a good and a bad sense)
>>>I'm writing this to all the thoughtless anonymous cowards out there
Are you talking to me? ;)
I haven't seen any anti-american posts here, but then again, I haven't read all messages that have been posted about this.
Now, some of us (Europeans and Americans alike) disagree with some US actions/policies. But that does not make any of us "anti-american". Disagreeing with some country does not make that person "anti-thatcountry".
My comments about this situation (as seen few posts above) are not anti-US IMO. They are about using KDE as a tool for political propaganda. Yes, I would have labeled them as "propaganda" and "political BS" even if they had been anti-USA or pro-Europe. Propaganda is propaganda, regardless of it's source or intentions.
Neil could say that KDE is "anti-USA" if there were anti-USA comments in KDE. But there aren't any. He says that KDE is anti-USA because KDE does not carry pro-USA comments. By that same logic, KDE is anti-China, anti-Europe, Anti-Mars, Anti-India, Anti-Antarctica etc. etc. since there are no glorifying comments about those either.
It doesn't really matter that is it about lack of pro-USA comments or because he was denied the right to put those comments there. Such political comments are not allowed, period. To my knowledge, someone had put some pro-Europe comments in KDE at some point in the pat and they were removed as soon as they were noticed (Of course, Neil forgot to mention that tidbit in his whining).
Now, protesting against software-patents is COMPLETELY different from praising some countrys army. Software-patents can have direct and severe consequences (spelling?) on KDE, so protesting against them is the right thing to do. US Army (or any other army for that matter) has not such effect on KDE, why should the be mentioned in KDE?
And besides, are there any comments about software-patents in KDE itself? The protest involved the website, nothing more (to my knowledge)
Janne you are smart person. i agree with you
You can discuss and discuss forever BUT.. its quite simple, theres no room for political shit in KDE software. and thats why the guy is kicked outta cvs access.
of course he can have his pro US army about box, but it wont be in merged with KDE.. (sucky software should be removed anyway kabboodle or whatever)
makes sense to me
Cya
Actually, he wasn't kicked out. The offensive lines were removed in the code. He disliked that and other comments (don't know what they were) from others, and removed the applications himself. He was asked if he still wanted cvs access and he replied why would I.
Thanks Eric for your comments.
Derek
> but I do expect they will, and should, be proud of where they live.
Actually, I generally hope, people don't attach their pride to stuff which they had little influence on (such as which country to be born in). It's quite natural to attach (positive) emotions to whatever you call home. Promoting pride to one's nation however may easily lead to lack of differentiated reflection on that nation's politics - especially whenever it comes to conflicts between nations. I'm very *happy* I live in the country I was born in (among other things, 'cause it's a rich, privileged and (comparatively) democratic country) and would not leave it unless given _very_ good reasons. But I certainly don't feel proud for that.
Anyway, essentially I agree with your post. More than just "two or three" posts (as others believe to have counted) are anti-american. Some very strongly so, others not quite as openly hostile. Many definitely beyond the point of simply disapproving of certain politics (which are still not related to KDE), but rather expressing a difuse aversion against the US as a whole.
I'm highly disappointed to see that (Old) Europe vs. USA thing being brought up again and again. This time, it was Neil who dragged this entirely unrelated conflict into the discussion - and loads of people here jumped to it. Please everybody: Get a grip on yourselves. It's understandable that emotions rise high, when talking about war (on Iraq), and my own opinion on that is rather strong and emotional, too. Me too, I don't much like the current American goverment for a variety of reasons (and yeah, neither could I think of a single European government, that I'd really positively like). But let's keep those discussions separate.
I'm not saying, discusssions on the Dot should not be allowed to stray to topics not directly related to software. I'm not even saying, this wasn't a forum to cirticize people for opinions unrelated to software and voiced in personal blogs. (Those things don't really belong here, but should not be banned either). But please: When doing so - leave your nation at home, and don't expect me to bring mine either. Even when talking about foreign politics: Just don't condemn entire nations or even "everything" a certain goverment is doing. That's not only rediculous, but also bound to be offensive.
Well, what to expect in a forum, where statements to the effect of "Everything about GNOME (including the user base) is bad, while everything about KDE is good" keep coming up? Let's keep trying, though...
Thomas
> More than just "two or three" posts (as others believe to have
> counted) are anti-american.
Count them. Four or five at most. So long as your definition of "anti-american" does not include criticism of the US government, of course.
Sure, it depends on the definition. I won't even try to give one. But I do sometimes wonder, why people are so eager very to voice their criticism of the US (government). That does not necessarily mean, I disagree with the criticism itself, actually I think many of those criticisms to be quite valid for themselves. I just get suspisicious when stuff like that starts turning up in completely inappropriate places.
Now, as mentioned, I don't think all posts in a forum like this need to be on topic. And this time, it was Neil, who gave a rather obvious pointer to US foreign politics. So it's not really surprising, some people state their opinion on Iraq. I do wonder, though, how e.g. complaints about racism in the US got into this.
BTW, I recently read a rather interesting side-note, to the effect, that of all countries with racist tendencies (which sadly means of absolutely all countries in the world), the US are the only one, where a member of a discriminated against minority can make it to Secretary of State. It does make you think, no? And so - to pick a random but fairly obvious example - why have I never read anything about Danish immigration politics on the Dot?
Maybe, you're even right, and no single post (or well, at least only few posts) can by itself be judged obviously anti-American. But the frequency with which critical statements about the US are voiced in this forum does seem suspiciously high to me. It seems to be symptomatic of a broad sentiment. Here, I do see, how US-citizens (even if they may agree with some of the criticisms themselves, and even if they may not tend to high levels of patriotism) will quite rightfully feel offended.
Sometimes it bugs me, that I've choosen my simple name (which is indeed a very common one) as my nick... I think it simply was luck, that nobody else was using it until now... Thomas, welcome to
http://dot.kde.org/search?author=Thomas
;-) hope you feel comfortable... at least I can agree on what you've written
Well, I didn't think about that until after posting. Guess I'll change my nick to Thomas2. Hope that will reduce the confusion.
> And so - to pick a random but fairly obvious example - why have I never read
> anything about Danish immigration politics on the Dot?
I think the answer should be quite evident. I know nothing about Danish immigration policies, and I expect that this is the case of most posters to the Dot. On the other hand, I can't avoid being aware of US politics, and thus having an opinion on them. They're on TV, they're on the papers, they're on Slashdot and they're on the Dot. They get to affect many things I do, even KDE. Definitely not the case of Danish policies.
> But the frequency with which critical statements about the US are voiced in
> this forum does seem suspiciously high to me.
I don't think critical statements are more *frequent* (though maybe more numerous, in this forum) than supportive statements. Pro-US government posters are contributing to this noise as much as anti-US government posters. As long as a certain civility is observed, I don't believe this is entirely bad, either. At least it makes people aware of the existence of different views on US politics, that might not be so easy to get especially for people inside the US.
As an American, I can say I agree wholeheartedly that many Americans just simply don't know about the real nature of the debate outside the US. From what you hear on CNN and American network TV, the only motive for opposing US policies is an attempt by Western European powers to create some sort of counterbalance to the US superpower. I don't think most Americans know that the invasion of Iraq violated the UN Charter (i.e. international law) and if informed, I don't think they'd care. Americans see no similarity at all between Iraq's invasion of Kuwait a decade ago, China's invasion of Tibet, and the recent US invasion of Iraq. It's hard for non-Americans to imagine someone being able to miss such an obvious parallel, but believe me, it's true.
It's terribly difficult for the average American to get unbiased news on Iraq. The best many hope to do is get two equal but opposite biases (i.e. Fox News and Al Jazeera) and try to piece together reality halfway in between. I appreciate that many Europeans take the time to challenge Americans on their policy of invading countries we don't like, but I also hope that Europeans refrain from seeming too superior. Any nation with a permanent seat on the Security Council can violate international law with impunity, and in fact they do, fairly regularly.
Just because the US is currently the biggest danger to democracy and the self-determination of nations does not mean everyone else is pure as the driven snow. Accept your own faults, but please, PLEASE, continue to point out ours whenever we seem to be blind to them (which is most of the time).
Thank you.
I would like to find definitions of "Anti-American tendencies".. anyone?
thank you... i felt the same thing but u said it said so much better than i could of
People should leave their politics at home when on the dot at least, this isn't the place for it and I too think we needto be more united as a communtiy and set our regional differences behind us.
In addition a fantstic improvement would be a registration system for the dot so that only people who actually have something to say will post. Most trolls only want to waste a minute or two falming and they would not want to bother to register, besides people would always see their names and therefore would learn to ignore them, unelss they are really insistent and constantly create new names which clearly shows that they don't have a life.
Please think about it, it would help the community untie, keep trolls away and have fewer, but more meaningful posts. Imagine if you found that the houses next to you had a new person living in them every day, it's kind of hard to make friends and establish connections that way, registering would help us get to know each other.
Please consider it.
BTW: eric, can I see a preview of the new KittyHooch website you were working on?
> but I do expect they will, and should, be proud of where they live.
You will find some of us are actually opposed to nationalism. I happen to believe nationalism is just a tool used by egocentric politicians to increase popular support and discourage criticism for their actions. And sadly you can see it works. People abroad are opposed to invading Iraq? They're ANTI-AMERICAN and should be ignored or even hated.
Humanity should be facing the challenges of our future together, and instead we lose our energy in stupid infighting for the only benefit of power-hungry politicians who will never care about people like us. Neil probably has much more in common with me than with American "aristocrats" like Bush or Cheney, and yet he hates me because I am European and I oppose their actions. That is what nationalism and "pride of where you live" brings you.
Eric,
Excellent response. You stated succinctly and rationally exactly what needed to be said. Kudos.