The Linux Box has interviewed Aaron Seigo on their latest episode of The Linux Box Show. He discusses Appeal and the plans for making KDE 4 the leader for usability, development and cool eye candy. Specific topics he covers include KControl, package management, KOffice and using high level programming languages. Start 5 minutes in for a brief history of KDE and 10 minutes in for the interview. "There's not going to be anything cooler than an interview with Aaron Seigo".
Update: Aaron provided us with a transcript of the interview.
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The phrase "the leader for usability" makes me think of an article about the Autopackage vision from Mike Hearn.
http://autopackage.org/ui-vision.html
The non-existance of a *easy* packaging system for apps in the user space is a huge problem imho.
users dont have to mess around with packages or even (de)installing of smth. thats admins work
in terms of usability kde is imho already at the top
especially like the kio-slaves, i make one for isbn (gives you as short desc), when its polished up a bit i will put it on kde-apps
> thats admins work
in controlled environments this is quite true.
in the home and SMB markets it's a rather different story.
On a side note, one area where I have seen kde really shine is its kiosk mode for locking down computers. It has allowed us to roll out sunray services across our university. I simply cannot sing the praises of kde enough for making our secure deployments possible.
could you sing them into an article for enterprise.kde.org? =)
Yes, please sing those praises. I would really like to know how to get kde kiosks running on sunrays.
So, my dear geek, you mr. Joe Sixpacks had just bought your brand new 700€ computer at the mart...who is the admin now? the one who sold you the PC? no one? or maybe YOU, the poor user?
Not everyone is living in a corporation or an university...so this kind of phrases are really weak when it comes to non professional world.
with your own comp your the admin, ok. but then you have to learn the same things as every other admin too, at least to a certain degree. badly managed home systems are one of the most dangerous things in existence; no need to know the exact vm table layout but installing kde from source (not cvs) with or without konstruct shouldn't pose any problems; btw, there are people called "distributors" who take care of packaging, so you only have to click a button for an update
> but then you have to learn the same things as every other admin too
we can keep telling ourselves this, but reality says something completely different. if we are fine with never making it into the small business and home markets, let's just keep repeating this to ourselves so we feel ok.
> badly managed home systems are one of the most dangerous things in existence
so let's make it _easy_ to manage home systems _properly_. we're actually behind both Apple and Microsoft on this one by a long ways.
> installing kde from source (not cvs) with or without konstruct shouldn't pose
> any problem
hehe.. i wish.
> so you only have to click a button for an update
these tools aren't yet easy enough. i find them a delight. my non-techie friends find them a nightmare.
>> badly managed home systems are one of the most dangerous things in existence
>
> so let's make it _easy_ to manage home systems _properly_. we're actually behind both Apple and Microsoft on this one by a long ways.
i guess, 95% of all home-brewn gnu/linux systems are better managed than 50% of alle _commercially_ used windoof-systems and 95% of all home-used windoof systems COMBINED
so who's behind who now?
(86% of all statistics are made up on the spot ;)
this is due to a couple reasons: first, most Linux users are more competent than most Windows users. this helps. the other factor is that Unix is inherently better designed for this kind of management.
what we lack, and where we are behind, is exposing our management concepts to end users in a way such that the _average_ computer user who's currently using something like Windows (poorly) can utilize them.
we have good things, but they are manual, hidden and/or esoteric. that's what we need to address.
I'm so glad that someone so deeply involved in KDE development as you think this kind of things :)
To all the geeks out there: no one is going to break your toy, what KDE (and Linux world in general) need is an additional, bypassable layer, useful for non-tech users. But if you've got the skill, you can bypass it and manage your box in the best way you think.
The soltion to this 'problem' is NOT having a decentralised random 'hunt the binary' system. This will lead to unpredictable messes of systems with .exe soup and random versions of libraries, like on windows.
A package management system is a feature (that windows doesn't have), not a weakness of unix.
You obviously do not understand autopackage, what it is and what it does. Read up their FAQs to educate yourself.
I have been following the autopackage project since the beginning.
Desktop icons that were in the same place when I logged in as they were when I logged off.
[/gripe]
Yes, there's a bug filed. For a year or so now...
Other than that, though, things have been working well and only getting better (although that's a lot like Mrs. Lincoln saying: "Other than that, the play was good!").
i'd like to see that issue fixed as well (though i thought it was with a patched Qt and KDE 3.4?), but to be honest, the idea of "the desktop is a dumping ground for icons" is waaaaaaaaaay past its prime. i can think of 10 better uses for the desktop than a static file manager view.
Like?
there are two primary problems with the "desktop icon" concept, IMHO:
first, it's completely static. well, almost completely static. the icons change when you mount devices or plug in a camera, USB stick or other bit of removable media (assuming you have it set up right, anyways). but our desktops are anything but static.
take the trash icon for instance. things are coming and going all the time in trash:/ (well, at least here they are; i'm a bit of a multitasker and create lots of temporary files that hit the bin a few days or weeks later). why shouldn't the trash representation on the desktop be equally dynamic? it should show me how many files are in the trash and how many Kb is being used, it should "expand" to show a small "window" when i hover over it showing me a list of files that are in it ... it should let me know when it's reaching "capacity".
or take project based work. if we knew what files / windows belonged together in a project, we could have a "project corral" that appears on the desktop widget showing files, actions and destinations that relate to the project you are currently working on.
the desktop should be a useful starting point and a helpful destination, two things it basically sucks at right now. we have the compute power to do it "right" now, and hopefully the imagination to match.
You didn't provide even one "way better use of the desktop" than as a static file manager even though you claimed to know 10.
(Actually your trashcan-example is merely a refinement of the basic old static file manager paradigm)
> You didn't provide even one
i assume you didn't grok the concept of the dynamic project based icon "corral" then.
i also didn't list the other primary problem i see with the "icon dumping" desktop concept, just the issue of its static nature. the other issue is that we don't allow for anything other than icons (well, and wallpapers, which can be painted by a program).
there's really no reason the desktop couldn't, or shouldn't, provide access to embedded applications. the desktop space is a bit special in that it's often covered by other windows, but it's also special because it's the "lowest" thing in the interface. so you can put things there and know that they are always there. this is similar to the concept space that panels occupy, except that panels are (usually) always the "highest" thing in the interface.
so while panels should contain the most important dynamic objects that you just can't live w/out (thereby justifying their "always top priority" existence) the desktop should contain items that are very useful to have but not always required.
karamba and friends show some of the possibilities, but their offerings generally are not used for user interaction (with some notable exceptions). i'd sooner have my RSS feeds, IM status, weather and a little "Run: " box on my desktop with a trash icon that expands to a fully usable miniinterface showing its contents than the current static icon fare.
in any case, i stuck with icon-related ideas in the previous post as they don't require a huge leap of imagination and are pretty non-controversial while highlighting how we have stopped way short of the possibilities by allowing just icons. that and i'm not going to write a book on the topic here in a web forum =P
if you apply your imagination just a bit you can probably lead yourself to wondering how other common icons on the desktop could be made much more useful by reinventing them as something non-static.
so let me turn it back to you.. what genius ideas for desktop-plane improvements can you suggest? =)
My paradigma would be: the desktop is obsolete. Our main operating GUI system is the webbrowser. All setting navigation via local html files. I do not want application for settings such as the Control center to mess up my application menu, I want a Control Center which is embedded in my webbrowser. Html does only offer limited options for controls but you can use embedded apps that open in your browser tab. Html navigation enables you to customize your personal navigation and it is pretty easy, everybody can use the web navigation. just put a link to your needed setting application, your files and so on on your browser start page. Why do I need an application with its own window to move around my desktop. Browser tabs are fine and if I needed a shell I can start a shell applet in that web browser.
Windows transformed the desktop to a window with "wallpapers". But a desktop is your desktop. I want information applets about my email inbox, easy access to contact data, my online time etc. on my desktop. I do not care about which application does the task. I do not want to move application windows around my desktop.
YEAH! 100% agree, you're absolutely right. In fact Windows spread a really horrible use of the desktop, but this must be stopped! WTF do I have to access the desktop (which is 95% of the time covered by other USEFUL windows) to get access to removable device or the trashbin? They are meant to stay in an alwys visible place, such as the kicker (and the trash and media applets are great for this!)
"it should show me how many files are in the trash and how many Kb is being used, it should "expand" to show a small "window" when i hover over it showing me a list of files that are in it ... it should let me know when it's reaching "capacity"."
Too late. I filed a wishlist item for this more than a year ago.
Too late for what?
Can you tell me the first 5? ;-)
Bye
Thorsten
Agree only partially.
The grand-parent said he would like to see the icons at the
same position at re-login. No matter what other metaphors are
invented for the desktop - a desktop will always be, well, a desktop.
And do you think it's cool if someone would shuffle your office desktop
around over night? BTW: We've got some cleaning personnel at our company
who upset me regularly with mixing all my papers...
So the basic principle is: The desktop will always look how you
left it when you come back (i.e. log on). Guess that's undisputed.
I agree with the "dumping ground" part. There could be a lot more
to a desktop. Extensions like SuperKaramba show the way. Things like
that have to be integrated natively and not in a scripting language
consuming way too much resources for a permenant desktop.
What I'm missing since Windows 3.0 times with "Program Manager":
"Program Groups". It's simply horrible that I cannot create rectangular
window-like "drawers" on my desktop where I can put my stuff in.
Sth. like the unfortnately abandonded Slicker-project with stackable Card
for the desktop would be great. IMO the project has been too ambitious
trying to create cards for each and everything. A much simpler thing
would already make a big difference. Create cards where you can put
your desktop icons in. These can be rolled up and down. This way
I can roll-down and roll-up cards specific to say Multimedia or
Web Development adapting my desktop to the needs at hand. When doing
Web Development I have all required apps: Quanta, KColourChooser, KRuler,
GIMP etc. This makes even more sense when using this to organize
your documents on the desktop. So In a way the whole "dumping ground"
problem you mentioned sums up to the demand for better icon grouping
and hiding.
So you want multiple desktops each with a different set of icons on them.
Not really, because I want to (re-)combine my groups of icons
arbitrarily but what you propose would be at least a little
oportunity to organize my desktop. Right now there is no way
whatsoever to organize one's desktop except putting all the
stuff into app groups which is way too complicated especially
considering the fact that you cannot do this with D&D like on Windows.
"hen doing Web Development I have all required apps: Quanta, KColourChooser, KRuler, GIMP etc."
Well, quite exactly what I do. My fifth workspace shows open Quanta, TkCVS and a Konsole. Since TkCVS already has filetypes asociated it works like a tiny file manager (I can double-click on a png file and it will open the Gimp, for instance, or a txt file and then it will open Kwrite) and it stays there from login to next login.
On other news, workspace one opens Kontact; number two Konqueror, number four a superuser console, number six Karm and some Knotes and number three is empty awaiting for "other tasks". This approach is a bit RAM spending, but I could achive the same with some half a dozen icons wich in turn launched the needed application-set for any given workspace.
The real problem here is that the workplace paradigm has been here say ten or twelve years and on this time most of the people hasn't even made the effort to learn how to write the simplest script (hell, even Windows 3.1 did support this via pif files) but they didn't matter loosing hours and hours and hours doing by hand lots of things easily automatable or whining about their workplace don't doing things it already does (and have been doing for ages).
If you mean device icons like floppy, CD, etc., then the solution is to uncheck them in Control Center > Desktop > Behavior > Device Icons tab. Then simply re-create the icons for the devices you want on your desktop by right-clicking > Create New > Device. Setting up the device icons this way will keep them in place for you. Hope that helps.
Thanks for the advice, but no--I'm talking about application icons.
This has been fixed for me, by either the latest qt or the latest kde or both.
I'm using Gentoo with KDE 3.4 and QT 3.3.4 and I'm no more experiencing this issue. It's a QT related issue AFAIK and with QT 3.3.4 (maybe with some already available patches that Gentoo kindly applies) is resolved. My desktop icons are there on every boot, and they don't move themselves :)
It is not as annoying as LUGradio, but why does he have speak that way?
I makes me sleepy and the jokes are not funny.
i'll practice my Seinfeld for the next one ;)
I am talking about the host and you know it ;)
After hearing this, I don't think LUG-radio is so bad. They just need at better KDE attitude.
there was a host? =P
Yes, 127.0.0.1
I know what your talking about. Really its an issue of their being only one host on the Linux Box, versus the locker room of LUG Radio. Only if there could be a show as entertaining as LUG Radio that didn't ask questions like whether KDE was going to be rewritten. And apparently none of them compile the kernel. Which is fine for a normal joe user, but these guys are hosting a Linux show, they need to drink more of the kool-aid.
I enjoyed listening to it and really liked the interview. I'm probably gonna listen to the previous 5 shows now and I already added his RSS feed to KNewsTicker!
a transcript, probably full of typos, can be found here:
http://aseigo.bddf.ca/?pID=1221
Now that's really cool! Now that's really cool! Joy, joy, joy!!
Which industrious soul did that? Aaron, giv'ver a huge hug!
Unfortunately, this little announcements hidden in the comments will not be seen by many.
Did you consider to make a separted Dot news item from this? Are you intending to submit this to Linuxtoday, Newsforge, LWN.net, OSnews, Slashdot?
What Aaron says is well worth being seen by many around the KDE community, users as well as developers.
I, personally, will show it to our IT boss, who recently mentioned that he pondered to use Mac OS in some corners of his department, since "KDE is not yet there" (though he likes OSS/Linux more than Apple+proprietary SW.
> Are you intending to submit this to ...
please feel free to submit this to websites you feel would be a good venue for it. i always feel a bit odd submitting things that i appear in myself for broader coverage elsewhere. i figure that if it's interesting, someone else will feel the urge to spread the word.
> who recently mentioned that he pondered to use
> Mac OS in some corners of his
> department, since "KDE is not yet there" (though he likes
> OSS/Linux more than Apple+proprietary SW
that's twice now that i've heard this exact sentiment in as many weeks. crazy. i'd love to know why your boss thinks "KDE is not yet there", because unless we really understand what the issues are we are not well empowered to address them (or ignore them, as the case may be ;)
and if there is anything i can do to help with KDE adoption in your shop, please let me know and i'll see what i can do, either myself or by mustering up appropriate resources in your area as best i can.
> i'd love to know why your boss thinks "KDE is not yet there",
He plays with Knoppix for 20 minutes after each release. (I always have to download and burn it for him). He thinks it is great technology, but he has difficulty "forget" his doubleclicking routine.
His son didn't fancy the games Knoppix included too much, and got bought one of the new Sony (or whatever) Playstation thingies.
His daughter first had an iPod and now wishes to get an iBook, and he'll buy it to her, should she complete her A Levels with good enough results.
BTW, he now is also a fan of http://klik.berlios.de/ which he thinks should be the way of how software installations work. He just loves that feature on the new Knoppix-3.8 that lets him one-click-install all software (with the help of UnionFS + a permanent home on a USB stick + klik).
He also loves NX on the Knoppix. (He wrote to their developers in Italy asking them to make that available on the Mac platform too...)
I have high hopes that he will use Knoppix a bit more often now. I will make it so that he can log into his office computer -- WinXP :-( -- from home, running Knoppix with the help of NX.
He thinks Kicker and zooming icons suck.
He sees OS X at his brother's (who is a graphical artist). That guy told him Apple had great server hardware too.
My boss isnt a particularly technical person. He is a manager type with an open mind. He hates Microsoft.
so to sum up: his family is Mac oriented (daughter, brother) so they influence him, he wants easier software installation and has some issues getting used to new ways of doing things. that's not bad; nothing insurmountable. =)
> He thinks Kicker and zooming icons suck.
zooming icons are gone in 3.4.
i believe you misunderstood this. you got the rove right, thats for sure. but when people said zooming icons suck, i believe they meant to say: "they suck, improve them!" not "they suck, remove them..."
wasnt someone having this idea about multiple effects, maybe via plugins? way to go, icon mouseover candy fx useable everywhere. eh?
bleh. you know what, if you keep harrassing me about this ... it won't change anything =)
> "they suck, improve them!" not "they suck, remove them..."
i covered why this wasn't realistic in great detail in my blog. you may not agree, but you'd be wrong. i appreciate your fanaticism over this feature, it's heartwarming and cute. it's also energy misplaced.
> wasnt someone having this idea about multiple effects, maybe via plugins
yes, that someone was me. maybe "someone" would like to implement that? oh right, that'll be me too in KDE4. =/
Unfortunately*