JUN
24
2008

KDE 4.1 Beta 2 Ready For Testing

Another milestone on the road towards KDE 4.1 has been packaged and put online for testing. The release notes highlight some features in Dolphin and Gwenview, as well as additional information on where to get the release, make sure you also check your distributor's websites as well. While there are some bugs left, the release already works quite solidly on most people's machines. Performance problems on NVidia chips remain, but we are confident that those will be solved by the teams over at NVidia in one of the next releases of their graphics driver. In KDE 4.1, there is also some preliminary Mac and Windows support coming up. Several apps can be tried by a wider audience on those proprietary platforms this summer already. On the side of Free operating systems, support for OpenSolaris is coming along nicely, but is not free of bugs yet.

As every Beta, we release this software to gain feedback and to provide a preview of our upcoming technology. When encountering problems during testing, please help us by reporting bugs through KDE's Bugzilla so developers are aware of them and can make the necessary changes. When trying this release you will encounter a number of new things, most of the new features are listed on Techbase, make sure to check out that list and give the next KDE a whirl.

Comments

> You don't need to understand the code to make judgments on the user interface.

sometimes you do. this is one of those sometimes.

> I don't think that being a "self-selected"

no, it just makes them not "all the users"


By Aaron Seigo at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

> > You don't need to understand the code to make judgments on the user interface.
>
> sometimes you do. this is one of those sometimes.

Actually, never. The regular user should not have any programming skills to be able to run some HMI, or GUI, or what-so-ever. This is the main mistake, which most programmers do, the engineers not, though. Because the principle of making thing works and designing thing have different approach. No one will credit if you have the best lyrics if your song doesn't fit it. No one will credit if you wrote the best book ever if the reader population is very small, and they can all be doctors of the science, still doesn't matter. The common end user is very power, and he decides, the engineer needs to feel the common user needs and to tackle it smooth into the code, bringing new ideas, yes they could be revolutionary, why not? So, never ever say that any user needs to understand any code you do or wrote. You need to understand user needs and to be able to say, yes I could do, or no I couldn't. But, no, pal, you need to look my code, to have some programming courses and then you could say "what-a-boy" to me, because what I did is so genius, that your small brain cannot fit, because you don't understand singletons :)


By doc_ds at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

I'm pretty sure the argument boils down to:

Some people: The cashew is useless and the animation is annoying. Please make a way for me to remove it.

Aaron (& some other people): No, it isn't finished yet and will become awesome. I promise.

goto 10


By Tim at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

"Aaron (& some other people): No, it isn't finished yet and will become awesome. I promise."

->

"Aaron (& some other people): No, it isn't finished yet and will become awesome. I promise. And if you don't like the result, a clone of the "classic" desktop, with icons as they were in KDE3 and no cashew, will eventually be made available by checking a tickbox".


By anon at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

I don't understand why the Cashew is needed. But supposing that the menu choices you get by clicking on it are necessary, why does the Cashew have to be there all the time?

In KDE3, I have a Panel with only a clock on it and it appears when I move the cursor to the upper right corner of the screen. Seems like the same thing could be done for the Cashew, or the Cashew could be eliminated and the menu items could come up directly.


By JRT at Tue, 2008/07/01 - 5:00am

Just because everyone that doesn't care, doesn't mind, or actually likes and understands the cashew didn't comment in the bug report doesn't mean that the few people bitching in the bug report are correct and deserve to have it their way. In fact bug reports are about reporting and discussing and solving a problem if one exists, not for people to chime in about how something is good so you don't see dozens or hundreds of BUG reports about something that is RIGHT. Vocal pushy people of the world don't get to run things even if they think bitching the loudest makes them deserve it.


By tms at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

I hope you're not one of the developers.


By Jeff Strehlow at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

Wow. Maciej writes:

"...Which is sad because it would be more flexible to have several components, pretty much as Lego bricks, not monolithic like current one. But somehow Aaron sees it, it is more flexible in current way."

Aaron blasts Maciej for being unprofessional. The above comment seems to offer a differing opinion, but I don't see how it is uncivil or unprofessional. Conversely, Aaron repeatedly calls everyone ignorant and says no one understands the issue, and furthermore he has no intention to explain it. He also states that if someone wrote a patch giving the option to configure it, said patch would not be committed.

He then wrote a lengthy post championing against giving users choice on principle.

For months I've said I was worried that KDE was moving towards a new philosophy that restricted choice, and most respond that in time KDE will again present the end user with plenty of choice. Aaron's own words seem to belay that.


By T. J. Brumfield at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

"For months I've said I was worried that KDE was moving towards a new philosophy that restricted choice, and most respond that in time KDE will again present the end user with plenty of choice. Aaron's own words seem to belay that."

Just switch to Windows then. You have plenty of "choice" there, right? Or maybe you could write your own damn desktop, then you could make it exactly the way you want.

Now you are basically saying that since the plasmoid-cashew is not removable by default (although it CAN be removed), it somehow proves your point that KDE is moving towards non-configurability. Um, OK....


By Janne at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

No, I said because Aaron wrote a lengthy post where he said he was against choice in principle, not one specific instance. He said it was a bad idea to allow for configuration for most things. I'd content that the configuration options are perhaps the biggest difference to an end-user between Gnome and KDE. Linus has been quite vocal about the configuration differences being the reason he blasts Gnome and advocates KDE.

When the head of KDE advocates against configuration and choice as an overall philosophy, which is what he did, that concerns me.

Are you honestly going to suggest such a notion does not concern you?


By T. J. Brumfield at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

Aaron is not the head of KDE.

Ok, he is the president of the e.V. (which doesn't have technical influence).
He is also the main developer of plasma, which is the interface users get when using KDE.

Still this is not all of KDE.

Alex


By Alex at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

> the interface users get when using KDE

to be crystal clear: it's the desktop interface users get when using the KDE workspace. there's also kwin for windows, konqueror, dolphin, system settings, etc, etc. in the workspace, and there's a lot of KDE outside the workspace.


By Aaron Seigo at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

because there is a way to provide choice that doesn't make it mind bendingly hard to use. is that really a hard concept to understand? according to the comments it seems the answer is "yes".


By Aaron Seigo at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

Several people made varying suggestions, including treating it like any other widget (and thusly allowing removal) and allowing the toolbox to disappear when locked.

Neither are mind bendingly hard to use. Both make sense in that they would be consistent with existing paradigms.

Perhaps even another idea would work better.

Still others just wanted the option to move it so it wouldn't interfere with maximized applications.

I agree with a recent blog post of yours in which you said that bugzilla may not be a good place for a "discussion" of such things. Mailing lists and forums work much nicer because of threaded views and such.

You've suggested that you have something in mind for the toolbox, and that most people don't know what you've got planned. You also said in your blog, and that thread, that you don't want to explain yourself because you could be doing better things with your time.

From a user's perspective, they operate off what they're told, and what they see on their current desktop. It would seem KDE 4 offers some half-realized concepts currently. One possible solution is to hide things and not implement them until they are ready to be more fully realized. The other idea is to attempt to document and explain your vision for these things. Internal documentation within the apps themselves would be ideal rather than repeating it across mailing lists, blogs, forums, the dot, interviews, etc. Yet anyplace beats no explanation.

If you want to focus on hacking on plasma, or doing bug triage, then you're certainly entitled to do so. However, I believe it would attract/entice/help developers, as well as comfort users if you managed to get out word on your plans. You've often encouraged people to just jump in the code and discover things for themselves, but a specific verbalized plan might encourage more people to look at the code in the first place.

It might help to attempt to delegate either some of the hacking, or some of the PR if you're having trouble finding time for both.


By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

> Several people made varying suggestions, including treating it like any other
> widget (and thusly allowing removal)

of course, it isn't any other widget and special casing it as such leads to nasty issues in the code. nasty issues in code tend to percolate up eventually to constrain what we can do for the user.

> and allowing the toolbox to disappear when locked.

which would only really make sense if it's locked from the context menu. more special casing.

> Perhaps even another idea would work better.

like Containments, and a drop down in Desktop Settings to choose your favourite?

> Mailing lists and forums work much nicer because of threaded views and such.

agreed.

> You've suggested that you have something in mind for the toolbox, and that
> most people don't know what you've got planned.

because most people don't read (and/or remember) every blog post i make

> You also said in your blog,
> and that thread, that you don't want to explain yourself because you could be
> doing better things with your time.

i've explained in my blog what that idea is. i've repeated it here in this thread twice now. at what point will "most people" get it? when it's in the code so they can see it themself without consulting design discussions, or when we have a place for such design documentation that is easily archived, searched and found.

> they operate off what they're told, and what they see on their current desktop

i think the latter is a far larger part of it. i've been telling people for months and months now about Containments.

> One possible solution is to hide things and not implement them until they are
> ready to be more fully realized.

other than the ability to alter the toolbox (or make it go away) Containments have *nothing* to do with it. moreover, Containments were there from 4.0. so this idea isn't applicable here.

> The other idea is to attempt to document and explain your vision
> for these things.

there's actually already an FAQ online for this.

http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Plasma/FAQ

it's a wiki. maybe you can help make it better.

> Yet anyplace beats no explanation.

not by much. i still deal with the abuse from you and others despite having explained it here and in my blog and elsewhere.

> then you're certainly entitled to do so.

that entitlement includes dealing with this thread though. which doesn't make it much of an entitlement.

> attempt to delegate

lots of that happens already, actually.


By Aaron Seigo at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

Is it possible to have a flash movie or something like that, that shows your vision about how plasma desktop would look like after coding is complete. Sort of like simulating a fully functional desktop in flash presentation. This would answer lot of users concerns and would save you lot of time justifying why the desktop is looking the way it is currently

I personally like KDE4 and I think its the best desktop environment ever


By Kris at Sat, 2008/06/28 - 5:00am

At the first glance, you seem to have right and Anon looks like the stubborn narrow minded developer who does not care for anybody's opinion.

However, when I think about it with a cool head, the truth is the reverse. Anon is not only the programmer but also the _designer_ of that component. And design cannot be done by committee or through user studies. It is a realization of the designer(s) vision and is an artistic process (good example: Apple's designs).

Anon has every right to do his design as he likes it first and surely not everybody will agree with it. I am sure he will also take into account user feedback once the design is reasonably complete (but does not even have to do that). It is take it or leave it. He is giving it away for free. He is fully entitled to his artistic freedom. Nobody prevents anyone from coming up with an alternative and compete openly. STFU already and let the man realize his vision. If he really messes up significantly and there is mass agreement on it, alternatives would emerge anyway. But don't expect people doing public work cater to your personal tastes!!!

The whole thing reminds me of the saying "No good deed goes unpunished!"


By AC at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

You want a configuration to remove something that does nothing unless you intentionally interact with it. You also want to make others have to enable something when it's possible on those systems it would be physically impossible to enable it easily. You also need to file a bug report with YOUR desktop provider which is downstream from KDE for the end user since customizations come from the distros in our current form of desktop on *nix.


By tms at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

"You want a configuration to remove something that does nothing unless you intentionally interact with it."

Actually all the people in this thread, and in the bug report complain that it gets in the way. It causes problems when you are intentionally trying to interact with it. That is the problem.

"You also want to make others have to enable something when it's possible on those systems it would be physically impossible to enable it easily."

It can be enabled by default, as it should be. I never said people should have to go out of their way to enable it. Don't put words in my mouth.

"You also need to file a bug report with YOUR desktop provider which is downstream from KDE for the end user since customizations come from the distros in our current form of desktop on *nix."

Distros do sometimes customize KDE, but more often that, most of the settings and features of a shipped KDE desktop are the defaults. If I ask say openSUSE or Mandriva to code a feature, it doesn't benefit people outside those distros. For some strange reason, even though the SRPMs and such are open, most distros don't really take from other distros.


By T. J. Brumfield at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

>"You want a configuration to remove something that does nothing unless you
>intentionally interact with it."

"Actually all the people in this thread, and in the bug report complain that it gets in the way. It causes problems when you are intentionally trying to interact with it. That is the problem."

And all those bugs/issues has been addressed and fixed, if there had been an option to disable it they would most likely not. This happend when the actual problems got identified, and not hidden by a configuration option. This also proves how Aaron in this case was right, refusing the option.


By Morty at Fri, 2008/06/27 - 5:00am

You can't move it or remove it.

People who want their panels on top have issues. People who have maximized windows have issues. How has this been fixed?


By T. J. Brumfield at Fri, 2008/06/27 - 5:00am

-The cashew no longer animates when moused over. (No more distraction)

-Cashews also play nicely with full-width panels on the top of the screen.
The only issue left is that if the panel isn't full width the cashew is still only a quarter circle even if there is no panel above it. This obviously should/can be fixed, and if distros feel that is a big issue they can use Suse's cashew-removal patch.


By Jonathan Thomas at Fri, 2008/06/27 - 5:00am

"People who want their panels on top have issues"

No, since it moves automaticly when you put the panel on top, or right side for that matter. It should perhaps get a smarter way to decide where to move, but thats a minor issue. And that is not fixed by making it removable.

"People who have maximized windows have issues."

No they have not, as it's already hidden below the maximized window. Removing it would not make any difference what so ever. And if they use the close button in the corner, it still require you to click it to activate. So there are no issue there.

So both your issues have already been fixed, and they are actively being improved even further. A hiding option would not have aided in detecting and removing these issues.


By Morty at Fri, 2008/06/27 - 5:00am

Janne, we all know that you love Aaron. Love him to death. Provide good arguments or stop trolling.


By Kapri at Tue, 2008/07/01 - 5:00am

Reading through the mess of this bug I found

ShowDesktopToolbox=false

for SuSE. I'd like to turn the cashew off as well (though, given what I've read inside the bug report, it seems necessary to me to state that I'm definitely not fanatic about it and clearly want to note here that for my part I think Aaron does an absolutely great job of leading the KDE desktop into the future and I understand that he cannot possibly discuss every single design decision of the plasma desktop with an anonymous internet community inside a bug report). So, my question here is, if something similar exists or will exist for Kubuntu packages as well. If it isn't, I'll live with it - it won't mean the end of civilization for me like some people are pretending it to be.


By Michael at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

It's an openSUSE addition. Because openSUSE people know why people like KDE.


By Grósz Dániel at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

it's an openSUSE hack, because they are willing to cut corners in the short term. that's fine for a distribution, imho, and i think that for their audience they did a fine thing.

upstream we're addressing the issue properly, which unfortunately takes time.

nice thing about having the source is that openSUSE can do this, and others can borrow their work if they choose to.


By Aaron Seigo at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

> it's an openSUSE hack, because they are willing to cut corners in the short
> term. that's fine for a distribution, imho, and i think that for their
> audience they did a fine thing.

this and the other bug to do with the openSUSE knotify or whatever it is should be a good reason to create some guidelines for distros so they make it clear what are their changes so they don't just let all the blame come back to KDE in general on these kind of issues when it's something they have created themselves.


By tms at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

Guidelines?

Are you suggesting KDE dictate what distros can do with open software, or are you asking distros to be clear with what their changes are?


By T. J. Brumfield at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

hi

where can i find more info about the preformance issues with nvidia chips?


By adrian at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

me too, me too... On my crappy laptop with intel 945 graphics it feels snappier (after some tweaking in xorg.conf) than on my 4Gb, 3Ghz Core2Duo, Quadro FX570 ;-(


By thomas at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

... and the temporary lockup / black screen issue in with konsole: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=121224059101922&w=2


By Sebastian Kuegler at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

Funny enough I accidentally turned on Compiz on openSuse 11 (it's so easy) running KDE 4.1 beta 1 and I almost got a shock at what I saw. It was at least 4 times as fast as Kwin with the effects turned on.


By Bobby at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

> On my crappy laptop with intel 945 graphics it feels snappier (after some tweaking in xorg.conf)

Which tweakings exactly? I'm on 945 graphics, too, and Xorg makes about 15% CPU load all the time. (I just can't work without some subtle desktop effects anymore...)


By Stefan Majewsky at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

KDE4 with OpenGL on Intel 945GM hardware

http://dot.kde.org/1213447279/1214036849/


By thomas at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

For example

http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160467

This is reproducable here. Resizing a konsole window with transparent background takes 5 seconds from dragging the window border with the mouse until it's painted. The user experience is just not snappy at all.

Here is another user suffering from performance problems:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=109990

My nvidia setup is suffering from serious lag in window management, it takes 1 second or more to switch virtual desktops (more windows open makes it take longer). This is a dualhead setup (2 1280*1024) and a Geforce 7600GS w/ 512MB). I'm using the driver from the NVidia repository for OpenSuse 11, and I have experienced the same performance problems on Kubuntu.

Jos Poortvliet has been blogging some time ago, although I'm not sure he could really pin it down to a single component.
http://nowwhatthe.blogspot.com/2007/12/performance-and-qt-44.html
http://nowwhatthe.blogspot.com/2007/12/performance-and-qt-44-again.html


By Sebastian Kuegler at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

"Performance problems on NVidia chips remain, but we are confident that those will be solved by the teams over at NVidia in one of the next releases of their graphics driver."

Should I read this as, "we've talked to Nvidia, they know what the issue is, and they've assured us it should be fixed" or, "like Flash working in every browser but Konqueror, we have no intention to fix the issue, so we're putting it off on someone else."

And before everyone starts calling me a troll again, I think it is a very valid question. Everyone was all over me when I questioned the folder view fiasco (and I've seen screencasts and screenshots. I understand it, and still loathe the current incarnation of it. The second it operates like an actual desktop with wallpaper and all, I'll look at it again). In the spirit of being open-minded, I was doing a new openSUSE install on a computer for my parents and tried KDE 4.

Their computer is low-end for a brand new computer, but it is still a dual core rig with 2 gigs of ram, and KDE 4.0.82 was unusuably slow. Not only was the system sluggish as all heck (though it was better when I turned off KDE 4's composite effects and switched to compiz fusion, which ran much nicer), but many of the new interface hoops reminded me of Vista. Not in that all shiny UI's are all like Vista, but more like options that were quickly accessed before now took extra steps to reach.

I was open minded, and I gave it a try, but within two hours I had installed KDE 3.5.9 and rolled back to that. The Nvidia issues were a big part of that. For years Linux users have been encouraged to buy Nvidia cards because they provided superior Linux drivers. On the dot I read repeatedly that those issues would likely go away with QT 4.4, which wasn't the case.

Does anyone actually know specifically what the issue is, and how likely it is to be addressed?


By T. J. Brumfield at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

"And before everyone starts calling me a troll again"

Everyone calls you a troll because you complain all the time and your comments are so utterly negative.

"Everyone was all over me when I questioned the folder view fiasco"

The only "fiasco" there was caused by people like you who were unable to read and understand what they were being told.


By Janne at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

Look up the definition of a troll. And as I've said repeatedly, I've said a variety of positive things about KDE for years and years. Being upset about one feature does not make a person a troll. A troll is somehow who stirs pots just because they like pissing people off. I conversely ask simple, direct questions that Aaron apparently had no intention of answering. I had been asking them repeatedly for months. I searched and searched for answers, and then posted in the dot looking for that same information. That does not make one a troll.

I've kindly asked repeatedly for you to cease with personal attacks. They don't serve any purpose. Furthermore, your attacks are without merit since you do not understand the term you attempt to slander me with.

And frankly, releasing a major milestone that lacks a very basic expected feature is a fiasco. Several reviews and blogs have ripped it accordingly.

But thanks for avoiding the issue here, which is piss-poor performance for Nvidia users.


By T. J. Brumfield at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

"I've said a variety of positive things about KDE for years and years."

As they say in finance-business: "past performance is no guarantee for future winnings". Just because you said something nice in the past does not mean that you can start spreading BS today.

"Being upset about one feature does not make a person a troll. "

It does when people try to tell you that you are wrong, and you basically cover your ears and shout "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!".

"A troll is somehow who stirs pots just because they like pissing people off."

And your utterly negative comments are doing just that.

"I conversely ask simple, direct questions that Aaron apparently had no intention of answering."

Is this about desktop-icons? Because you were given answers OVER AND OVER AGAIN. If you refuse to listen or don't understand the answers, that's your problem.

"I've kindly asked repeatedly for you to cease with personal attacks. "

You seem to be constantly whining about non-existant "personal attacks". Where exactly have I done that? I have not attacked your person in any shape or form.

"And frankly, releasing a major milestone that lacks a very basic expected feature is a fiasco."

Again with the icons? They are there. It's just 100% obvious that you are utterly clueless. And no, that is not a "personal attack". I'm utterly clueless about car-engines, and I have no problems admitting that fact.

Could you FINALLY quit with your endless whining about the icons? Rest assured that you are wrong on this issue. Hell, maybe you should just switch to Windows, then we would be spared from your whining.

"Several reviews and blogs have ripped it accordingly."

Those reviews and blogs were written by people who were ignorant on the issue. They basically wrote about something they had no clue about. They basically claimed that KDE will not support icons on the desktop, when nothing could be further from the truth.

"But thanks for avoiding the issue here, which is piss-poor performance for Nvidia users."

Complain to NVIDIA then. Is it KDEs fault if NVIDIA writes buggy drivers?


By Janne at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

Grow the fuck up.


By T. J. Brumfield at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

Heh, is throwing around obscenities when you've been bested logically the best you can do? Grow up.


By Jonathan Thomas at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

"As they say in finance-business: "past performance is no guarantee for future winnings". Just because you said something nice in the past does not mean that you can start spreading BS today."

Accusing someone of BS is a personal attack which Jannes continues to deny. Furthermore, the point in contention here is that Janne repeatedly accuses me of being a troll, and now contends that one negative comment denotes being a troll regardless of past behavior. Clearly Janne does not understand that assigning a label to a person does include past behavior. Furthermore Janne continues to miss the point that a troll has nothing to do with complaining. A person is a troll because of motivation. If they say things solely to incite people rather than state their sincere opinions, they are a troll. If anyone is trolling here it is Janne.

"It does when people try to tell you that you are wrong, and you basically cover your ears and shout "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"."

You call this logic? Seriously. What the hell does this even mean? This has been Janne's typical tactic, to throw out some nonsensical accusation rather than address issues. And you claim that Janne outwitted me with logic? No, I just want nothing to do with such childish behavior.

And frankly, opinions can't be wrong by definiton. No one proved me wrong. I stated that I hated a feature, and would not use KDE if that was the future of KDE and Janne repeatedly suggested that I was wrong. Wrong about what? Does Janne understand the concept of subjectivty versus objectivity?

"And your utterly negative comments are doing just that."

There is a trend here that people are chastised for offering and dissenting opinions on the dot. This is apparently an unmoderated open forum for discussion. And "yes-men" mentatlity benefits no one. Dissenting opinions are in fact invaluable in any community driven product that strives for quality.

"Is this about desktop-icons? Because you were given answers OVER AND OVER AGAIN. If you refuse to listen or don't understand the answers, that's your problem."

I fully understand the way the system works. I get an applet running on top of my desktop which looks terrible, or I replace the desktop containment for a new one that has no support for wallpapers. Both look awful. We're regressing horribly here. This isn't a usable state to ship a finished product in, but then again, neither was the half-hearted attempt at plasmoid icons either. I'd delay the release, or perhaps focus more on the very basics of a usable desktop before I focused on other things.

The question I've asked for months is what is so horribly broken about the old system that it must be thrown away before the new system even works. Why can't the two live side by side? If you want a folder view applet, then have it. I hope it brings you no end of pleasure. But why remove choice and functionality?

Aaron said the concept was horribly, horribly broken. Why? No one ever answered that. People suggested it was bad practice to have anything on the desktop period. Then don't put stuff there. Others want to. Why remove that functionality from them? It makes zero sense.

You're forcing people to operate the desktops differently and I guarantee you will lose a bunch of users over it.

"You seem to be constantly whining about non-existant "personal attacks". Where exactly have I done that? I have not attacked your person in any shape or form."

You repeatedly call me a troll and then deny making personal attacks. You call me a whiner and deny making personal attacks. Do you understand what constitutes a personal attack?

"Again with the icons? They are there. It's just 100% obvious that you are utterly clueless. And no, that is not a "personal attack". I'm utterly clueless about car-engines, and I have no problems admitting that fact."

You insist they are directly on the desktop, which they are not. They exist in an applet. You insist nothing changed, when it did. Your insistance does not change the facts.

"Could you FINALLY quit with your endless whining about the icons? Rest assured that you are wrong on this issue. Hell, maybe you should just switch to Windows, then we would be spared from your whining."

How am I wrong about an opinion? Agains subjective versus objective. Or are you saying I'm wrong that the icons aren't in an applet? Because then clearly you don't understand how it works.

"Several reviews and blogs have ripped it accordingly."

"Those reviews and blogs were written by people who were ignorant on the issue. They basically wrote about something they had no clue about. They basically claimed that KDE will not support icons on the desktop, when nothing could be further from the truth."

No, several people didn't want their icons in an applet. For once, an applet does not operate the way a normal window does. You insist anyone who doesn't like what you like is ignorant. I won't even begin to describe that philosophy.

"Complain to NVIDIA then. Is it KDEs fault if NVIDIA writes buggy drivers?"

That depends on the issue here. That is why I raised a question.


By T. J. Brumfield at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

> > "Complain to NVIDIA then. Is it KDEs fault if NVIDIA writes buggy
> > drivers?"
>
> That depends on the issue here. That is why I raised a question.

"Complain to NVIDIA then. Is it KDEs fault if NVIDIA writes buggy drivers?".

This is no viable answer for a project as KDE.
It means, that KDE as it is will have problems on a big percentage of machines, while all other desktops don't have this problem. Relying on that NVidia will fix the issue in some future update and that users will update then (and will still be running KDE4 by then) is a bad choice.

Alex


By Alex at Tue, 2008/06/24 - 5:00am

This is becoming rather ridiculous, do you really read what you reply to and what you write? Creative and incomplete quoting by you, does not make it any better btw.

Lets take a closer look at the first one:
T. J.:
"I've said a variety of positive things about KDE for years and years."

Janne:
"As they say in finance-business: "past performance is no guarantee for future winnings". Just because you said something nice in the past does not mean that you can start spreading BS today."

Janne:
"Accusing someone of BS is a personal attack"

So to spell it out for you. No, this is not a personal attack, since no one are accusing you of anything. It's just pointing out that whatever you have done before, have no relevance on current performance. Why you chose to interpret it as an attack are rather odd. Please stop inventing personal attacks when none exist.


By Morty at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

Incomplete quoting?

In almost every post between the two of us, I had quoted every single line from Janne verbatim.

How does that constitute incomplete quoting?


By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

Troughout the post that triggered my reply, you left out your own orginal statement and crafted your reply to Janne in a way that it become out of context. How much you qouote does not matter when you take it out of context, hence incomplete quoting.


By Morty at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

It is standard practice not to quote the entire thread. I quote his additions. My previous comments are right above. I didn't selectively remove bits to editorialize. I consistently remove my previous comments, and consistently include every word of Janne's comments.

How is that selective quoting?

I'd contend my method is standard practice by many on the internet. I was just following due form.


By T. J. Brumfield at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

Since by removing your original comment in which Jannes reply was aimed, making your out of context reply harder to spot. So intentionally or not you did editorialize.

The standard practice is not to consequently remove everything one level above in a discussion, when required you should include necessary information to keep the context clear.


By Morty at Wed, 2008/06/25 - 5:00am

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/editorialize

Please look it up. I took 2 years of journalism classes, so I'm quite familiar with the definition. You suggest I altered my quoting practice to editorialize, except I don't alter my quoting practice. I'm extremely specific about habits, practices, and semantics.

I reply directly to what is said, and consistenly quote all of it. You insisted I was quoting "incomplete".

Given that I quoted every word Janne wrote verbatim, by definition, it was complete. Complete is the opposite of incomplete.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incomplete

Lastly, you insist my replies are out of context. You claim my comments are construed out of context because I haven't quoted "completely". Given that the parent comments are immediately above the current post, they aren't hidden or removed from view. I'm not hiding anything. I'm not circumventing anything, or misdirecting anything.

Frankly I feel very confident that I haven't intentionally replied out of context, but feel free to bring up an example since you feel so strongly about it.

Given that you're batting 0 for 2 so far, I'm really not all that worried.


By T. J. Brumfield at Thu, 2008/06/26 - 5:00am

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