Today sees the release of Kubuntu 8.10 featuring the latest KDE 4.1 desktop. The Kubuntu developers have been hard at work, integrating this major new version into a completed desktop. The settings and artwork have been kept close to KDE's defaults to ensure the best face of our favourite desktop shines through. Desktop effects have been enabled by default for cards which support it thanks to the wonderful KWin and package management comes via a brand new version of Adept. Printer Applet and System Config Printer KDE were written to ensure a complete user experience, both are now part of KDE itself. Update Manager, Language Selector and plenty other tools have been reworked for KDE 4. Upgrade, download or request a free CD.
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I basically agree with Fireproof Bob.
KDE 4.1 is very, very nice to look at, but almost useless to work with.
I say this with a heavy heart, since I consider myself as a KDE user, not a Linux user. I've even considered using Windows, as long as I could take KDE with me.
Of course, I haven't given up yet. I will try every new version and hope that it will be functional. Maybe 4.5? (Of course it also depends on whether Amarok will be fixed or not. 2.0 is just awful, and I don't suppose 1.4 will be supported for ever...)
"KDE 4.1 is very, very nice to look at, but almost useless to work with. "
Please give specific examples and things that you think could be improved. I'm using KDE 4 to work and I don't really find it "useless".
I only installed kubuntu on my Laptop for testing and haven't done any work on it yet, but two times out of three,something kde-related crashes on startup. Knotify crashes almost every time I shut down. When it doesn't crash, shuteown doesn't work and I have to kill X manually. Kontact crashed after three clicks. Mac OS menu bars are no longer supported, but it doesn't fall back to normal menus automatically, so right now, I don't have any access to menus whatsoever and no apparent way to get it, except maybe by deleting my entire profile. I could go on, but I think this is already sufficient for calling it unusable
1) Amarok 2. That would be enough for me to call KDE4 unusable, but of course I can use Amarok 1.4 - as long as it is being developed. For some people, it may not be important at all.
2) Dolphin.
3) The desktop, with those awful "icon" thingies. At this point, it doens't work as a regular desktop metaphor at all. The Folder Views might come to something, but they are not there yet.
4) KickOff. (And Lancelot doesn't seem much better).
5) The Panel.
OK, everyone says that it will become better. Fair enough, that's why I said I will keep on trying. Alas, at the moment it's so bad that I can't even use it on a day-to-day basis, which also means that I can't even file bug reports.
As of yet, it's no big problem, since I can still use KDE 3.5.x.
But in reality, you have to upgrade your distro every now and then, and for how long will you be able to do that, while still keeping 3.5?
Maybe you should tell the people responsible for your distro. However there will probably be third party packages or distros catering to kde3, at least for a while
Strange! KDE4 is a crap, and KDE3 is the best DE ever (you think). But MS is copying large parts of the UI for Windows7 from KDE4/plasma not KDE3! Maybe KDE4 isn't that bad as you think...
I'd say KDE4 is way better than KDE3. It only takes time to show it's full power.
KDE 4.0 was a release to make the KDE-Developers happy (after 2 years of silent hacking, they needed tho show and use something of their efforts).
KDE 4.1 is pretty nice. Only a few rough edges and missing ported applications (Amarok, Digikam, KDevelop, KOffice,...).
KDE 4.2 will be better than KDE3 ever was. That's what I honestly belive.
I use the SVN. I have the KDE 4.1.71. That is pretty much how KDE 4.2 will look and feel. It will not be "better" than KDE 3.5.x, it will not even be close.
I used to like the KDE desktop. Now I (ab)use XFCE4 and a few KDE apps like kate.
if you don't like it, you don't have to use it. I to am using "4.2" and I consider it to be well in front of 3.5.
I'd love to hear on what points 3.5.x does better than 4.2 as I would have a hard time coming up with things. Konqi is pretty much back, and has several big advantages (not the least speed), dolphin rocks, Gwenview is 10 years ahead, and Plasma kicks kickers's ass anytime, anyplace. KWin - not even in the same league with all the graphical stuff, I love it. Even apps like KWrite got a lot better, as did the file-open dialog. What the heck is it you miss?
KDE4 is a great technology and it helps you to define the future of the desktop. It is true that the transition is not that smooth but progress is taking place in a very rapid way. KDE4 is going to rock.
I think that KDE 4x has a great future. But, as a lot of people have said, it takes a while to have all the functionality of KDE 3 in the KDE4 branch.
I think that:
- KDE 4.0 was aimed at developers, in order to get them with something stable to develop for.
- KDE 4.1 will be used mostly by distributions (see kubuntu, openSuse, etc.). Some of the main KDE programs (amarok, digikam, koffice) will be in beta phase.
- KDE 4.2, with most of the functionality of KDE 3.5 I think it will become a great source of pride for all the community.
While I disagree with most of the post, and the way it was written (too agressive) I just find the image "don't look back because KDE 3 was better" a lot of funny... and true [for now] ;)
You hit the nail, that's the way I feel to.
Starting for the "I won't remove the cashew even if you fill bugs and provide patches" attitude, they are deff, they are full of them self, and they are failing big time.
You're totally wrong. KDE4 is growing and it doesn't have full functionality of KDE 3 yet. But, it's far more advanced than Macos or Vista - never met with such great number of very high quality apps in Vista or in Macos of course. Linux with KDE 4 is much faster than them and looks better. I agree that KDE shouldn't go GNOME's way, but it seems that it's going in some part - Amarok 2, Dolphin...
I completely agree that Kickoff is a usability nightmare. I really believe the reason that some people say they preferred it was due to search functionality. I believe you can add search without developing a cumbersome menu that is a pain to navigate.
I completely agree that Dolphin is watered down.
I completely agree that in many ways KDE 4 today still lacks functionality I've come to expect, but KDE historically has spoiled me with a fantastic desktop.
However, I also completely agree with most of the responders that your post is largely dead wrong, worthless at best, and poisonous at worst. As a KDE 4 detractor, I can still see many benefits of KDE 4. I can see a future for KDE 4. I can see tons of progress made since KDE 4.0. I still disagree with major decisions. I'm still running KDE 3, and maybe I'll never run a KDE 4 desktop.
However, ugly blanket statements that foolishly compare KDE 4 to Vista (seriously!) just take away any credibility you have.
i completely agree too
when 4.0 was out, it was told that 4.1 will reveal all the promised strength and advantages. Comparisons to 2.0 and 3.0 were drawn ... After 4.1 the very same told to look forward to 4.2.
And now, 4.2 short ahead and kde4 _not_usable_ - i think it should (must) be really obvious for everyone that something seriously goes wrong.
Is it coincidence or rather misconception to have weather forecasts and realistic looking clocks at the desktop, but a ripped down file manager, cumbersomely KMenu and KControl, an ideological fight about how a user has to use the desktop, much increased line-spacing in konsole, casual desktop crashes and an overall decreased number of config options ... Yes i know ... but really, is it _only_ a problem of man power?
anyway, for now i can stay with kde3.5 but that won't last forever ... and (sadly) kde4 isn't the alternative
"Yes i know ... but really, is it _only_ a problem of man power?"
Er ... yes.
Enough! That was the last try i'll give it for the next months.
The whole desktop crashes again and again while trying to resize the "folder containment" -
after automatically(!) desktop restart (seems to be an important feature :-)) the former size is restored ...
It's only ridiculous!
Years ago, i would had brought out in laughter, if someone had told me that he's up to make a desktop environment
where SuperKaramba-like widgets will be able to crash the whole desktop shell.
I can assure you guys, my laughter now has silenced.
Misconception. But no one dares to call it by name. Sorry, the original poster somehow does ...
Please, check your system instead of blaming KDE4. I'm not experiencing such crashes in any way.
Yeah, that's what they used to say those win98 users ... but they weren't right back in time and neither now.
Its a case of design flaw!
Did you really don't got the point? Even if I would misconfigure a widgets behaviour, that _must_not_ crash the whole desktop shell and all other running applications there!
Btw. i barely did anything else with that fresh kde4 installation except for those round about 50 mouse clicks that led to the neverending restart loop.
As said before - it's ridiculous!
I've yet to have a crash, but I am running OpenSUSE and as far as KDE goes, they do it far better than any others in my view. And have recently installed the unstable branch for 4.2, it is looking amazing, and rather stable. Honestly if you have problems try a different distro, as I have found some distro's KDE versions are very, well, lacking.
Hmmm I think you're a bit off here. KDE 3.5 *is* more stable, but I am running KDE 4.1 on my computer and installed 3.5.9 on a friend's computer. I have to say, even with the quirks of KDE 4, I would prefer to stay with it instead of going back to 3.5. The applications, the look, the framework, ...
4.0 was pretty rough and a bit unsatisfactory. 4.1 is waaaay better... bit buggy sometimes, but usually its a pleasure to work with.
I haven't read the discussion but.... You are right: KDE4 as it is right now has not future. Why? because KDE4 is improving very very fast as we speak. To say that KDE5 as it is right how HAS a future would imply that we would be running the current release of KDE4 for all eternity. Which, of course, is not what will happen. It's just as valid to say that OS X, Windows, GNOME etc. as it is today has no future".
That said, I REALLY don't understand the whining about KDE4's features. I would understand it if developement was standing still and/or developers were telling users "STFU you loser,s we have no interest it fixing these issues!". Anyone who actually follows the developement of KDE would see that it's progressing fast. Very fast. The functionality that is missing is being added all the time.
KDE4 is 10 months old. 10 months. For the first few major releases, OS X sucked hard as well. Today it's so good that no-one wants to go back to OS 9.
"Meanwhile, all the other desktop platforms are trooping ahead"
Are you claiming that KDE is standing still? I'm sorry, but you are utterly clueless. No, you really are.
> I haven't read the discussion but....
maybe you should read the discussion first?
maybe there are users with completely different use cases and experiences than yours?
maybe there are users feeling kidded beeing assured that konqueror fm will still be available but finding out it now uses the dolphin parts?
maybe those waiting for features but all they get aren't the ones they waited for?
maybe pretty much of those care a sh** for how stable macOS was or is?
maybe stability has a totally different significance to them?
maybe jannee...
"maybe you should read the discussion first?"
I did read it afterwards, and I made some additional comments.
"maybe there are users with completely different use cases and experiences than yours?"
And maybe there are users with different use cases and experiences than yours? So what's your point? That only your use-case is valid?
"maybe there are users feeling kidded beeing assured that konqueror fm will still be available but finding out it now uses the dolphin parts? "
So what? Is the problem that Konqueror in KDE4 does not do everything Konqueror in KDE3 does?
"maybe those waiting for features but all they get aren't the ones they waited for?"
Like I said: KDE4 is 10 months old. 10 months. KDE3 is now 6.5 YEARS old. Which of those two has had more time dedicated to it?
When KDE2 or KDE3 was 10 months old, it was crashy and buggy as well., and it was lacking a lot of the features we took for granted in the latter releases.
And why are they just twiddling their thumbs and waiting? Why aren't they doing anything? WHy are they just sitting on their asses, and making demands to the developers?
"maybe pretty much of those care a sh** for how stable macOS was or is?"
Maybe you should try to understand that I was merely using MacOS as an example of a release that at first attracted a lot of complaints, but in the end turned out to be something great?
not to mention that kde3 was only an extension of kde 2 meaning that it had a far easier path to stability. Kde4 is brand new.
Frankly I hope all the whiners do move on, so we don't have listen to their moaning. They're always welcome to come back when it suits them...
well there is on doubt tahat KDE 4 at this stage is immature...
however i don't understand such voices.... its been said 1000times why They (KDE.dv and developers) decided to work on project 4 in that way... in modern desktop history there are no such example of such a huge technology jump and only open development is a way to attract users and devs to switch and somehow stabilize new platform...
1. I personally and my 23 colleges in our company are working on KDE 3.5.10 and CentOS 5.2 (very good suspend support on laptops).
2. Our IT team is testing KDE 4.1.2 on F9/F10 Rawhide... especially KDE PIM
3. in mid of the 2007 we were planing to switch around KDE 4.3.1/2 now it will be probably 4.4.1/2
Every body has a right to complain cos that's a beauty of FOSS... but it will be nicer if users were more patient and try to understand whole ecosystem...
eg. I'm annoyed by the Dolphin/Konqueror case... however I have to accept free will of developers... You cannot changed a nature...
KDE dev keep on going... in next 12-14 months there will be a very good desktop on the market...
"Meanwhile, all the other desktop platforms are trooping ahead, further empowered by an infusion of development support and constantly swelling userbase thanks to the monumental /faux pas/ called KDE4."
http://cia.vc/stats/project/KDE
http://cia.vc/stats/project/GNOME
http://cia.vc/stats/project/xfce
http://apt.pearsoncomputing.net/
Fireproof Bob: I love that banner. I always thought there was a strange conflict between the two slogans "Be Free" and "Don't Look Back" My mock KDE 4.1 banner would say: "Be free to look back"!
Nobody hates KDE4 more than I do, but why ruin somebody else's fun? KDE could be a spectacular success, or a spectacular failure, and either way the community could benefit. If it were to turn into an abortive attempt, however... that would benefit no one.
I say we let KDE4 go wherever it's going. It falls to us who are not seduced by WIDGETS! WIDGETS! WIDGETS! to defend the bridge back to sanity that is KDE3 against those who would burn it down. When they say (as they said of Intrepid) "you can't run KDE3 on this!" Run it anyway... and then make sure anybody who wants to can run it as well.
KDE 4 is not the issue. KDE 4 is a brave and noble experiment. The issue is the continued viability of KDE 3. When it comes to KDE 3, I'm gonna fight, for my right, to paaaaaarty!!!
I've given my opinions about KDE before. I wasn't listened to. That doesn't mean I should go and cry and whine. If KDE sucks, then it'll be back to the good old days of bb and everything else customized to the T for me. I'm not too worried. KDE was very good while it lasted all those years. If KDE4 is where it begins to suck, then fine, I won't use it anymore. It'll be time to explore other software - (not Gnome... gag, choke, sputter)
HOWEVER
Let the devs make what they want to. Come on. It's their creation. You whiners act as if your opinion so valuable. Well, f0ck that. It's not. If the devs are making a mistake, let them. They can be their own demise. I make music. Many times I couldn't give more than one or two thoughts to someone's opinion about my creations. Because there are those that like them and there are those that don't. If you don't like it, then that's fantastic. It just means that there are people different that any of us. Isn't that great?
(What an RL n00b...)
What a sensible comment...you don't belong here GTFO
hahaha... The moderator is annoyed. =)
BTW: http://dot.kde.org/1225379191/1225934313/
KDE4 is not bad. The problem is, current state of KDE4 should be a RC.
I think KDE4 has a brilliant future. It just doesn't have much of a present.
And that's a problem because apparently some of the major distros have decided to shove it down our throats, although all the data I've seen indicated that KDE3 is what a slight majority of KDE3 users are currently using. It's not as much of a problem as it could be, because the community will pick up the slack. Within days of the Kubuntu Insipid Ipex release, (NO KDE3 OPTION!) There were KDE3 repositories appearing, and now I'm running Intrepid Ipex with KDE3.5.10... and I love it.
KDE4 is the focus of development as long as KDE3 will be supported, and as long as people use it, it will be supported.
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html
There's a lot of myths and misconceptions about that. People think that KDE3 is about to be yanked out from under them, and it isn't. I think this is the big problem. Speaking for myself, KDE4 isn't an issue if I don't have to use it. Right now, using KDE4 would be like moving into a house without a roof because I think the kitched is lovely.
I have my reasons for believing that KDE4 could be KILLER one day, but I see no reason to believe that it's not going to be a long long long rollout.
I don't expect new features in KDE3. I'm still discovering awesome new uses for the old features. All I want is to be able to count on security updates and bugfixes. And I finally learned that I have always had that right. But I really had to dig to get that information. In my opinion, the KDE team has handled everything perfectly down the line EXCEPT to explain to the public what they're doing. I've said this before: professional wrestlers probably make better relations people than software developers.
There's no real reason for anybody to be upset, unless you're upset that KDE3 isn't going to get many new features, and I think that's not reasonable. The KDE3 team is too talented and too ambitious to focus their full attention on
fixing something that is just so perfect, in it's limited 20th century way. They'd probably wind up breaking it.
I can't speak for anyone else but when I complain about KDE4, the subtext is that I fear for KDE3. But once again, I can see that KDE3 i9s gonna be just fine, Kubuntu be damned.
So many people don't seem to understand that. I didn't understand it until I read this.
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html
See? No problemo.
I agree that KDE4 is taking to long to be final, but its a big codebase, the devs are trying to rewrite & improve 6 years of work. from 3.0 till 3.5.10, it's an unpleasant status quo situation, but hey, you have 3.5.10 just 2 monts old.
As for the features & looks, seems like no one remmembers vanilla kde3 in arch & slack, with the settings chooser at first start, i don't think a large group of people used vanilla kde setup. KDE4's look is about apealing default for most users, and friendly configs. The features will come
That's correct, but my distro (Kubuntu) just force fed me an unstable and incomplete KDE4. And no, i cannot stay with Hardy, the previous release. I need many other upgraded non-kde packages from the new release. So now, I, a long time KDE user that installed KDE on so many computers for family and friends, am thinking about installing GNOME, which is now very polished. This is the point.
Then chose another distro. Opensuse, for example, ships both.
Ok great! Just what I wanted. Reinstall another distro. In practice you're admitting Kubuntu has failed to deliver a usable distro.
Maybe an unusable distro *for you*, not in general. And that failure is quite different from KDE 4 being a failure, isn't it? Go complain with Kubuntu that you prefer to use KDE 3.5.x, but don't complain with KDE that 4 sucks because your distro forces you to use it and you don't want to switch to a distro that does allow you to use it.
BTW: you can always compile a vanilla KDE 3.5.10 on your Kubuntu if you want. Nobody is stopping you.
I'm talking about kubuntu. Never said that KDE4 sucks in general, i said that THIS release is not ready and Kubuntu force fed me with it. Is it clear?
So which Kubuntu member forced you to upgrade at gunpoint? He will be severely reprimanded! Hardy will still be supported for another year if you don't want to upgrade.
Since many find this Kubuntu release usable, this is clearly not the case. He only points out that there are alternatives that would suite *your* needs better.
So for you it's a no brainier. According to you Kubuntu don't deliver the product you need, so it's rather obvious that you should change to something else that does.
KDE 3.5 is still available on Kubuntu, right?
For 8.10, no - you'd have to compile yourself or get some third-party packages.
And the problem with that is...? It's really not that hard to compile KDE yourself, it just takes a bit of time.
Time = money. People don't want to waste either. Yes, compilation is automatic, but there are plenty of packages you need to compile, and for that you have to manually unpack sources, configure, make, make install for each. And don't forget that "./configure" will sometimes give you errors that some headers were not installed, so you need to supervise all of this, since a script/chained-command-line would simply stop at that point.
3.5.10 backports are available for anyone who doesn't want to switch to 4.1.2
Isn't that a forwardport then?
Where?
I dont see any intrepid in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/k/kdebase/