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Re: Stability?
by Andreas Joseph Krogh on Tuesday 17/Oct/2000, @12:31
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I agree, it's a shame it's going to bee a "GNOME 1.0" release:-(
I can't understand why they don't want to release a version out for the public to review for some time, _then_ release a rock-solid KDE2 after months of bugfixing. I realize KDE2 needs to get out to the people, but let them have the previews then. Compared to Enlightenment, Sawfish etc. Kwin is more of a version-0.0.1 windowmanager. You can't even set window-decorations(none, border-only, etc..) which should be mandatory for an X-window-manager. I would much more appriciate a "you'll get it when it's ready(ie. tested, proven stable..)" attitude. I myself use it every day at both work and at home, and there are those little things that just don't feel right. Like the Kwin-thing mentioned abow(it also krashes a lot), koffice-components crashing from time to time, the filters not being ready, kio-processes dying, konqueror not handeling JavaScript correctly etc... I'm sure this will be fixed in a 2.0.[1|2] version, but why not have it ready in a 2.0.0 version _even_ if it means waiting another 2 months.
All in all it works _almost_ satisfactory. And I must say I'm impressed by how far they have come with this project, but I also know they'll get even further. I'm just afraid new users will install a distro with KDE-2.0 as the default, and say - "Hey, its as unstable as Windows, I thought Linux was stable?"(yes, they call what they see Linux).
Anyway - keep up the good work, just don't get rushed:-)
--
Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreak@nettverk.no>
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Re: Stability?
by Aaron J. Seigo on Tuesday 17/Oct/2000, @13:33
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> You can't even set window-decorations(none,
> border-only, etc..)
try right clicking on a window titlebar and going into the "Decorations" menu where you will find ~10 different window decorations (include "smart" ones, that adjust according to their environment, such as B2K).. there isn't a "none" option there, though one could write a plugin that would do that as i understand.
> koffice-components crashing from time to time,
> the filters not being ready,
koffice is anything but ready for prime time.. it isn't at the same point of stability that the rest of the project is. as i understand it, though, koffice is an ancillary project to the KDE2 project. its more of a seperate project by many of the same people involved in KDE2 if nothing else.
> kio-processes dying,
yes, this is annoying... although i've seen a steady improvement over the last 3-4 releases. still, once in a while a kio* gets left around AFTER the process using it is gone.
> konqueror not handeling JavaScript correctly
that's what netscape's for =) konquerer is the only file manager i've ever used that is even half decent as a web browser. in fact, its more than half decent, its 98% decent =)
> but why not have it ready in a 2.0.0 version
> _even_ if it means waiting another 2 months
because waiting longer could result in a disastrous loss of user base for kde. users want/need a new desktop now; kde1 was great but the times have moved and something better is needed
also, by releasing it now the number of people using it (and therefore feedback) will jump tremendously. 6 months' to a year's worth of feedback will probably occur within 1-2 months by releasing it now as "2.0".
besides, haven't we learnt by now that *.0 means "usable, but not a lot of real world experience". kind of like a kid about to get his own place for the first time =)
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Re: Stability?
by krazyC on Tuesday 17/Oct/2000, @13:51
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good point; but i think his concern is that instead of reporting bugs users would just switch desktops. my guess is that it probably won't happen, but that was his point.
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Re: Stability?
by Non Amiss Coward on Tuesday 17/Oct/2000, @19:55
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> Because waiting longer could result in a
> disastrous loss of user base for kde. users
> want/need a new desktop now; kde1 was great
> but the times have moved and something better
> is needed
This is bull. Linux is still gaining users how could KDE "lose user base"?? Besides even if it is gradually "losing user base" (whatever that could possibly mean for a free OSS project) people use Kfm as a regular filemanager application as much as they use Netscape for surfing the web.
KDE 1.1.2 is a very good and **way** more stable piece of work. There's not very many well maintained applications written specifically for KDE, but as a filemanager/desktop thingy it does the job. You obviously haven't been part of a project where a too early release has **COMPLETELY KILLED** it. Granted KDE may be too big for that too happend but if 5-10 gaping security bugs are found and something as bad as bug 10380 (which bit me in RC2) is widely experienced by "the user base" you'll see a lot worse situation than what happens when a release is late.
Look at the Linux kernel --- it's like 6 months behind schedule but the "user base" is growing. Better to do it right than crap all over users. Thankfully most distribution packagers are likely going to wait a while given THE VAST NUMBER OF BUGS and unstability of KDE 2.0.0
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Re: Stability?
by Aaron J. Seigo on Wednesday 18/Oct/2000, @09:04
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>Linux is still gaining users how could KDE
>"lose user base"??
Linux != KDE. The two may grow independantly and for different reasons.
>KDE 1.1.2 is a very good and **way** more >stable piece of work
Good point, if this was KDE2.1.2. Compare KDE1.0 to KDE2.0? On or before 2.1.2, KDE will be rock solid in every imaginably way I am sure.
>You obviously haven't been part of a project
>where a too early release has **COMPLETELY KILLED** it
No, I strive only for successes @;-P But seriously, the "releasing early" is a two edged blade. Sometimes it is *exactly* what is needed, sometimes it is the death knell. It is not in and of itself a bad thing, however. It's a judgement call.
It seems that a lot of people are spoiled (in a good way) by the stability of the last KDE. What is missing from this realization is that it took a while to get to that point. With KDE2, the programmers and users of KDE have to take the pill associated with any new software: its not as good as something that has had years of work put into simply polishing it.
When KDE2 has been spit polished into 2.1.x, I have a feeling we'll all get to go back to being spoiled KDE users and programmers.
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Re: Stability?
by Andreas Joseph Krogh on Wednesday 18/Oct/2000, @00:20
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> try right clicking on a window titlebar and
> going into the "Decorations" ...
This is not what I mean. This just changes the look of _ALL_ windwos. What I mean is(and you probably know it) setting borderstyles on windows with sertain titles/class etc... like you could in kde-1.1.x
> that's what netscape's for =) konquerer is the
> only file manager i've ever used that is even
> half decent as a web browser. in fact, its
> more than half decent, its 98% decent =)
This is what I think is the main problem of KDE2 right now. Waiting another few months could make everything 100% decent. Now everything is _almost_ decent. As I said, it's those little things which makes it feel incomplete.
--
Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreak@nettverk.no>
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Re: Stability?
by Christian Gebauer on Tuesday 17/Oct/2000, @13:48
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>Kwin is more of a version-0.0.1 windowmanager. You
>can't even set window-decorations(none, border-only,
>etc..) which should be mandatory for an
>X-window-manager.
Try kstart --help
> I'm sure this will be fixed in a 2.0.[1|2] version,
> but why not have it ready in a 2.0.0 version _even_
> if it means waiting another 2 months
because most of the stuff you mentioned (besides the
crashes) are missing features and you can't add new
features in a freeze.
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Re: Stability?
by Matt O on Tuesday 17/Oct/2000, @18:56
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All i have to say is artsd. the sound server is no where near prime time, and that is part of the core project (I think). I am using it now also, and I think it's great in many ways, but it's just not stable enough yet for 2.0. my 2cents.
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Re: Stability?
by Andreas Joseph Krogh on Wednesday 18/Oct/2000, @00:28
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> Try kstart --help
I have, it's not nearly what I'm looking for, besides - it crashes Kwin a lot.
> because most of the stuff you mentioned (besides the
> crashes) are missing features and you can't add new
> features in a freeze.
Exactly, but those missing features are what makes it feel complete. I know, of course, that you cannot add features in a freeze, but hence the freeze is to early.
--
Andreas Joseph Krogh <andreak@nettverk.no>
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