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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by Matthias Ettrich on Wednesday 15/Nov/2000, @10:59
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Red Hat always had a strange attitude towards KDE. Remember that they shipped it in there offical german version, while they still claimed doing this was illegal on their web site? These really were the days..
While I'd like to see Red Hat joining, one has to notice that they don't do much on the desktop anymore. There desktop has pretty low priority and is poorly maintained (compared to for example Mandrake, S.u.S.E. or Caldera). They are clearly aiming at the server market only.
According to what Miguel de Icaza ones posted about the early days of Gnome, it was Red Hat that motivated him to start the project by promising commercial backing. Remember Red Hat Labs? They did a big part of the early Gnome work and now they are maintaining Gtk. When they started doing this back then, it was seen as THE BIG THING. They had more developers on following up KDE than Trolltech had for Qt development at this time.
Just imagine what they could have achived using the right tools rather than duplicating efforts.
Sometimes I think it might be interesting for KDE to do a small distribution poll among the developers. At Trolltech, we are using a polical correct mixture of Caldera, S.u.S.E., Mandrake, and Debian. And I believe we have a few Corel machines as well. |
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by Navindra Umanee on Wednesday 15/Nov/2000, @11:10
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Speaking of politically correct, don't forget Bradley T. Hughes and his FreeBSD. ;-)
Cheers,
Navin.
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by John Califf on Wednesday 15/Nov/2000, @11:55
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It doesn't do much good further alienating RedHat. Remember how things were with Kde and Debian a few months ago? All that is different now. It can also be different with RedHat.
I'm using RedHat 6.2 right now as a Kde developer simply because when I messed up my partition table removing MS Windows from my machine, the fastest way to reinstall Linux was to run down to Best Buy and pick up a boxed set of RedHat. The support for Kde is not good. I had to uninstall all the RedHat Kde stuff which is was /usr and rebuild everythig from source to be able to switch Kde environments between stable and development versions. There were other problems with kppp. However, it was all worth it to get rid of Windows forever, and everything now is set up about like a Suse or Caldera box, with RedHat. For end users, I can imagine the difficulties especially with RedHat 7.
RedHat seems to be even more interested in the embedded and internet appliance market than in servers. Perhaps Trolltech's inroads into embedded systems will provide an incentive to RedHat open its doors a little more to Kde as well, if Qt really takes off in embedded devices and appliances.
If I can learn to be diplomatic certainly you can as well. Your continuing hostility over what properly belongs in the past is unnecessary. Please think about it, especially considering your position of influence in Kde circles.
John
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Poor little redhat - sorry redhat, really!
by bruce on Thursday 16/Nov/2000, @14:44
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What, might I hurt their feelings? Quite frankly I don't give a fig for them. I used to buy RH until 5.2 and then the whole hypocracy sickened me. They didn't have any problem shipping closed source apps like bru, xing (some xserver) but qt was a real problem to them. Bullshit - they saw that they needed control of a very important part of the UI and with KDE - they were in the same boat as the rest of the distros. So GNOME was pushed and the KDE fud was spread.
They are becoming irrelevant.
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by Anonymous on Wednesday 15/Nov/2000, @14:49
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Poor you, they didn't want to back your project.
No wondering you're bitter...
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by Matthias Ettrich on Wednesday 15/Nov/2000, @16:10
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There's a huge difference between not backing up a free software effort and actively working against a free software effort. I'm not talking about supporting a competitive effort, I'm talking about approaching commercial or free software developers and feeding them with missinformation. They failed in many cases, though, where the engineers won the battle and decided to go with the technically more appealing solution. Corel is a prime example for this.
I'm not bitter at all. If Red Hat said clearly "we don't see how we can make money with Qt, but we see a great business opportunity to push and lead Gtk development", all would have been fine. Open cards, you know. I wish they wouldn't have advertised their powertools product with a huge screenshot of my LyX software at this time - it had exactly the same "licensing problems" in their point of view.
Seriously, I'm much more dissappointed that they hired some excellent developers from the KDE team and don't give those enough time to work on their respective KDE projects.
Btw: Next time you post and insult, put your name in there.
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by Erik Kjær Pedersen on Thursday 16/Nov/2000, @07:36
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It is actually a major problem for some of us. I am chairman of the Math. Department in Binghamton. We are running around 30 desktops with Redhat and Kde, mostly Dell machines. I chose Redhat because it is dominant around here, and Kde because it is stable. We recently installed the Redhat rpms for Kde2 on Redhat7. These rpms do not contain any documentation files. They contain the uncompiled index.docbook files, so practically no help function is working.
(Only the programs that have not been updated to docbook format). They contain the translations for languages starting from a to h. Apparently they crashed on Hebrew. Redhat 7 broke wordperfect 8 which is absolutely essential to us until kword is a little more finished. We found out solving the problem by installing a couple of libraries from Redhat 6.2. I told Redhat they ought to post that on their website and got an incredibly snooty answer back, saying that Wordperfect was Corels responsibility not theirs. Having the upgrade break the programs of the competition is something I seem to have heard of before :). The fact that we get a snooty answer to telling them about the solution to a problem, I find a bit too much. They decided to stop Solaris support without any warning, which means we have about 8 machines we cannot keep uptodate. They are pretty old, so we can live with that, but the fact that they have not produced decent Kde2 rpms is very irritating. I realize we only send about $300 pr year to Redhat (and less in the future because Solaris is not supported), so we can not demand too much, but at least I can confirm that they have a strange attitude to kde. I really long for the days when the Redhat rpms for kde were made by the kde developers.
Erik Kjær Pedersen
chair, Dept. Of Math. Sci.
Binghamton University
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by Bero on Thursday 16/Nov/2000, @10:57
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The fact that the initial RPMs didn't have docs were caused by the fact that the released version of kdoc 2.0 couldn't process the kdelibs docs.
This has been fixed in the later builds, available from ftp://ftp.linux-easy.com/pub/kde/ and ftp.kde.org.
If you notice any other bugs, please report them - either directly to me or through bugzilla (http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/).
I don't remember seeing a bug report about this from you.
As for breaking WordPerfect, it's offtopic here, but it was actually announced in the release notes that we're discontinuing support for libc 5.x packages. libc 5.x has been obsolete for about 3 years now, definitely enough time for anyone to update his applications.
Sorry about the snooty answers you got - some people around here tend to get aggressive when they're getting a couple of "bug reports" reporting an announced "feature". The tone may not have been right, but the content probably was.
(May I ask where you sent the message?)
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by ac on Thursday 16/Nov/2000, @09:45
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Kde always had a strange attitude towards Free Software. Remember when they shipped kde when Qt was licensed under a cr^H^Hpropietary license ?
These really were the days..
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by Bero on Thursday 16/Nov/2000, @10:32
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The Qt 1.x license (not 2.x, not QPL) was actually a bit of a problem, because it didn't allow the code to be modified.
I personally think that gtk's API is a pain, and therefore it wasn't the right way to go, but the idea of a really free desktop was right. If I had been in control, I would have pushed a really free Qt workalike to run KDE with.
I guess some people's dislike for C++ was the primary reason they decided to do something completely different.
As for RH joining the League, I'm trying to convince those in control to do just that, but I have no idea whether or not I'll have any success.
If you have any good arguments I should pass along, feel free to let me know. ;)
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Re: KDE Announces Launch of the KDE League
by ac on Thursday 16/Nov/2000, @11:31
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If I had been in control, I would have pushed a really free Qt workalike to run KDE with.
and did you remember when main kde coders say that they are _not_ interested in a free Qt workalike when asked if they would switch to it?
so, IMHO, your pushing at that time would have been a waste of time, I think ...
These really were the days..
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