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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Bojan on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @07:41
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This is the way to go, Nick! The screenshots show really what people want to have. I don't understand really why you need help. Once people select what packages they want to install, it is just a matter of executing few "rpm -i" commands.
Another question: this installer seems to propose /opt/kde2 directory, where kde2 should be installed. My current 2.1beta distribution is installed in /usr.
Why this mess? Wouldn't be easier to agree on where kde2 should be installed by default, then if someone really wants to have it somewhere else, installer would allow him to do that?
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Ben Ploni on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @07:42
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Gah! Repeat after me: KDE is not a linux distribution. Let the distributions do this; it's their job. Distributions ought to have a single tool for adding and removing software. And I mean adding software that you haven't downloaded yet. Feeding a previously d/led rpm to a package manager doesnt cut it. It ought to act like a catalog of software that you can pick stuff you want and it'll D/L the RPMs and handle dependencies. Debian does this, but not in a newbie-friendly way.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by SD on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @07:46
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Thanks Nick, this will help the KDE project alot.
The one suggestion I have is the user should also be able to select individual applications within the packages for installation.
I have no idea if this is even possible when installing from RPMs. Anyone know if this can be done?
SD
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Stefan Hellwig on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @08:02
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Hm. It's very nice to have a KDE installer and I think it may help a lot of people although the Linux distribution's interface/installer should take care about most of this anyway. As for me I always install KDE from the sources :-)...
However, I think it is even more important for KDE to have a nice application installer that looks like this nice KDE installer.
Okay, many people might now say: "Hey, what do we need this for when we have a nice RPM installer?" but I believe that this argument doesn't count.
What I think is required is something that looks and works exactly like this nice KDE installer presented here but does not (only) (de-)install KDE itself but also applications, not necessarily limited to KDE apps. What do you think?
Regards, Stefan.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Shift on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @08:22
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Has SD said :
It will be better if the user can select each application he wants to install.
kteatime is the only application I use in kdetoys for example.
A GUI to install KDE is usefull but if there are no other features, it will be more easy to use :
"rpm -i *.rpm " in the kde_directory_of_your_distrib
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Learn from Ximian-Installer - This is now Flame
by Uwe Klinger on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @08:23
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For the first time Installation the Wizard approach is nice. But when you want to update or install additional software it's not the best idea.
Have you ever tryed out the Ximian (formerly Helix) Installer?
It lists Software in some categories:
They are also working on a new installer. Which can handle so called "Channles", which you can offer your software.
It would be good if you could do following things:
Maybe the updater part should base on the kpackage tool which offers some of the required features yet. But lacks a moderated channel view of packages possible to install.
So it would be a powerful tool not only for installing kde packages.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by ac on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @08:42
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apps.kde.com has a large number of KDE packages. If apps.kde.com could provide an XML file or description file of the KDE packages available on that server (including download links, package format, version, conflict information, dependencies), maybe your program could use this to provide up to date install options to the user?
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Tom Corbin on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @08:55
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I think Uwe's nailed it. It really seems to me that
what a lot of people are looking for is something
very similar to Ximian's updater/installer, where
you have choices of which mirror to use,
categories of packages, etc.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by phatworm on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @09:44
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When can we have a red-carpet type of installer so that I dont have to download every single RPMs everytime when I want to upgrade something KDE?
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by David on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @10:34
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Time for another long post, this is part of a mail I sent to a KDE developer back in early December last year on how I would like to code an Installer when I get time. At this time I had no time due to studying for exams which I still am but they end soon. I hope it covers some good ground and gives the author some new ideas / problems to think about. It's more complicated than just writting a download program for RPMS however and is mainly concerned with compiling from source as that's what I was interested in at the time as infact it's simplier due to different dependancies, libcs etc. Let me try and handle one issue though, people say this is something the distributions should do and I do agree with this except for the fact they are not doing it. Debian is an expection here and my hat is off to them but Debian is non profit and non profit means they have nothing to lose. The other distros rarely issue package updates except for security problems, if you could just buy Mandrake 6 two years ago and then automatically update it, why would anyone buy Mandrake 6.1, 6.2 etc. So, the distro's aren't exactly going to be falling over themselves to provide this feature if it costs them money. Ximian on the other hand.....Ah, just read my earlier post about their installer... So this covers some of the things I thought of for a way to get the KDE packaging sorted out and provide the basis of an installer. Binary distribution presents on big problem, packing the apps for each indivdual architecture that KDE supports and each sperate distribution for each arcitechture... It's got to be platform indpendant so where the orginal mail gos off to binaries and RPMs, I don't think RPM is a good idea as it's redhat derivitive distros only and hence is not on all systems. The best way to go would be to have a KDE apps DB local as mentioned first. It's also a lot bigger project than it first seems if it is to be done well.
***
On to packaging, I'd like your ideas on this: One of the "problems" I can see with KDE is its packaging. The packages are too large and although they cover a specific area i.e. networking, admin etc I don't want to install all the bits of each package. For example say I wanted to manage my ftpserver via a nice gui, I then also install a user manager, a cron job manager a dat drive tool etc. Say I want an email client (kmail) as most people do, I also get an archcie client, a news reader, a PPP daemon config util, a AOL instant messenger etc etc...
Most users install KDE from distributions and this is
exactly what they see, a heap of apllications that they don't need and for the most part don't even understand.
I think Linux has too many applications (well, to many similar apps anyway) and too many options. Bizare as it might seem this holds it back from the average user. I'd say with the current satus of Linux mainly power users and techies use it, these users are the kind that only want to install what they
need. Of course this also can be blamed on the distribution makers but we need to make it easier for them as well, the current way KDE make releases isn't that effective.
Solution:
1. KDE core should be maintained as it currently is the 3 main packages:
kdesupport
kdelibs
kdebase
IMHO I think kdesuppport should be phased out if possible but this will take time? Possible solution to getting rid of kdesupport would lie with the distribution makers. I *think* KDE currently needs mimelib and libaudio from kdesupport on my system even though it contains other packages, these aren't
compiled by default as I guess I already have them. Surely we can just make these few libs a dependancy for KDE base?
Look at it this way, we need openssl for crypto support in konqy, this is an important feature, why's it not in kdesupport? What about Lesstif for netscape plug ins or a java implimentation? Of course mimelib and libaudio are version critical to the correct operation of core fuctionality of KDE where as the other libs mentioned above provide "nice to have" functionality.
Even so, I can see this only from two sides, which are:
A) Techie compiling KDE from source. If he/she has the knowledge to compile KDE from source they should have the knowledge to get the dependant packages. If he/she doesn't have the ability to read figure out why configure complained about a missing package and read the README what are they doing compiling KDE themselves.
B) Average Linux dude that installs from a distribution. The distribution just has to package KDE correctly with the correct libs as a dependancy on the KDE RPMs / APTS / slackwware packages. This can't be that hard, the distro people should get this right (I'd hope or else their in the wrong game), apart from that David Faure / Mosfet are at mandrakesoft, Bero is at
redhat, surely there are employees of the other major distros involved in the core team that could advise their colleauges.
2. Seperate all the apps out of their current groups so that for example kdenetwork, utils, multimedia etc are no more. A solution to this would be to sort CVS out in to two groups:
A) released: These are apps that are currently maintained, are actively developed and considered up to a high level. Basically 99% of the apps that now make up the various parts if the distribution. New work is commited in to HEAD as it is currently and releases are taged when the author(s) feels the
app has new fuctionality or a large bug sqashed. Of course releases should be compatable with the current stable core release. When a new release is made the tag should be packaged, for now this is a source only package in tar.gz
format (bare with me, works with the installer..). It must contain a file called KDE_RELEASE, this file has a strict layout or is in XML and contains at least all of the following information:
name
description
version
changes
importance
Once the tag has been placed and the KDE_RELEASE file added a script can be run against CVS to automatically package it, copy it to the KDE FTP site and remove the old version, it then gets mirrored from the KDE main site. The ftp site would be layed out the same way CVS is:
ftp.kde.org: |
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- stable
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-kmail-1.9.99.tar.gz
-ark-1.2.3.tar.gz
-konsole-1.0.1.tar.gz
-kuser-1.9.8.tar.gz
-....
-....
-....
Once every hour a script can be run on the ftp server to extract the KDE_RELEASE file from any new packages if they exist (based on time created I guess). This would update a file called KDE_RELEASES that lives in the root of stable, obviously this file contains up to date information on all released packages.
In it's self this is a far better way to release KDE for the power users out there who want a stable release but can compile what they need from source and I'm sure it will help the distros to package KDE better. This is not the end goal, the installer is.
The Installer: The installer is a simple gui app that acts with two functions, firstly it can install KDE once the base packages are in place and secondly it can keep KDE up to date. In the KDE root directory on the local machine lives a file called KDE_INSTALLED, this is a DB (XML / plain text) of
all packages installed on the machine and is created when kdebase is installed. Its updated by the "make install" script when a package is installed or as a post install script from RPM /apt etc. When the installer is run, it loads the KDE_INSTALLED file and asks where it should check for
new packages, either locally or the Internet. Locally brings up a location selector, so that for example magazine CDROM can contain packaged updates (a lot of people are still on dial up) or to install 3rd party software (something not released by KDE e.g. kcpuload). The Internet option connects to the ftp.kde.org and downloads a list of current mirrors, the user selects
a mirror and the KDE_RELEASES file is download. The installer compares this with KDE_INSTALLED and shows updates to installed packages + info such as importance, description etc. If the user wants to install a selected package
they select download & install, the installer then gets the package and performs a configure, make, make install. This exact commands should be configurable so that --enable-final, install-strip or lib paths could be could be configured for example.
As for installing KDE, the installer should have two radio buttons one for update that works as described above and only checks for installed packages and the second lists all packages where multiple packages can be selected and installed. Further options are for the installer to live in the system tray and check at regular intervals for updates from their favourite mirror, when an update is availible for an installed package it alerts the user.
The future: I think up to now, this gives KDE a solid base to expand this idea, sorts out CVS and it certainly lets the users decide what they want to install instead of the ever growing kdenetwork, kdeadmin etc packages. It helps the distributions and is atleast platform independant. The big problem
with this is that packages need to be compiled on the users machine so its not perfect for everyone especially joe average. However, if the installer does some checks on the development enviroment first it would satify a lot of KDE users out there as I'm sure most have compilers installed?. The other flaw is that it doesn't allow uninstalls to be performed which is I think an
important feature, this could be handled by having the KDE_INSTALLED DB keeping a list of files that "make install" installed and having the app update the DB if it updates a global config or adds files. This is not really an elegant solution and duplicates functions of other software (RPM
/APT)
I haven't tought the next bit through 100% but the idea is to have the first generation installer to get the source as above but to build RPMs and install them using KDE's own branch under the RPM DB. This way the packages are able to uninstall via RPM, this can be expanded later to use the installer to
check for updates to bin packages but bin packages create a new set of problems like install paths etc. I personally like RPM but some distros don't so there are politcal issues I guess, I do remember some distro writting an apt to RPM layer so that any packages could be used
B) going back to the CVS stuff, keep the nonbeta part of CVS, might be better to call it unreleased and move it to its own branch (if it's not already). Once a package in unreleased proves it stuff it can be moved to released and a first release can be made. Because everything would be a seperate package
it means that moving a package from nonbeta doesn't have to bloat up a package group as is the current situation.
I think the installer app should be fairly easy to do and I hope there is someone with the time to impliment it but getting CVS in the shape where this will work might be a little hard?
Anyway, the stuff above is just a few ideas that I can see from the outside, there may be very many reasons why this can't be done, but as I'm not that involved with KDE, I of course don't know about them. If this is some use, please feel free to forward it to the kde developers / mailing lists.
Regards,
David.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by gunnar on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @10:45
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hi,
just two things to notice:
a. loki has done an open sourced installer etc for their games
b. i think, ibs is working for in installer too.
maybe it could help to look at these too.
-gunnar
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Stephan Böni on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @11:10
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I have some additions:
- check what is installed.
- download required packages.
- send optionaly an e-mail when updates are available.
- check for available diskspace.
- select option for stable oder newest beta to download/install.
- uninstall options for no more used packages.
Thanks. It's a great idea to make an installer!
Stephan
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Nick Betcher on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @11:41
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Ok, everyone, I need to clear some stuff up with you!
* This project is Open Source!!! It can be ported to ANY OS!
* This installer will support MUCH more than just Redhat. I am not Redhat-centric!!! I use a Redhat system, but I understand other people like other distros, so I fully support them. This is where I will also need help. I dont use Debian, *BSD, Slackware.
* The installer isnt meant to be a replacement for the installs of KDE, but some of you think that the distro should handle it, listen to this:
What happens when KDE releases a new version? You have to download the newest version of your distro and install it just for KDE? Hell no! Also, distros dont properly install KDE sometimes, or sometimes they release pre-release versions (IE: Mandrake 7.2).
If you dont like the installer, nor the idea, dont use it!
* PLEASE, I REPEAT, PLEASE discuss this on my forum that is made JUST for this discussion! http://www.rox0rs.net/forums
This concludes my rant, if I missed something, Please let me know on my forum!!!
Nick Betcher
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Eric Caldwell on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @12:12
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Ithink this is great but, what is needed is an installer like Ximian's RedCarpet and Nautilus' that does dependency checking. This will go a long way towards getting newbies into the loop.
Even when I use Mandrake's updater, I still sometimes have dependency issues and Mandrake only releases RPM's that they've tested and approved.
Not all good KDE apps are going to make into Mandrake's list so, someone like kdeapps needs to support this installer so that you have a good list to choose from.
M2C
Eric
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Debian
by Dirk Manske on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @12:47
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Sorry, Debian users do not need such a nonsense.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by L.D. on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @15:22
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HI! this is a great Idea! I was going to comment that it would be great to have a standard list of distro's supported so a new or intermediate (me) user doesn't need to figure out where the files need to go. but, the screenshots look like it does that allready.
thank you for reading my post!
Lance D.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by rinse on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @17:01
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A nice feature would be this:
If the installer downloads all necesary files from the Internet, the user should be able to choose where to put the downloaded files, and when the network connection failes (e.g. modem hangs up during donwload or similar problems) the user should be able to resume the download/installation at a later time. It would also be nice if the installer could work from a local directory, So when a user wants to reinstall kde, he/she doesn't have to download everything again.
(This is something I missed in the Netscape Installer: I didn't know where Netscape downloads the files to, and when the modem hangs up during the download, I had to start all over again.)
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by bit0101 on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @19:16
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While I am no brainiac I know this; Windows will forever kick ass on the home user's PC so long as Linux targets techies and power users. People who come home and use their computers don't care about why they can't check their email, just that they can't do it. While I read through others comments about how great it is to install from source I think it was so nice to copy *http:/go-gnome.com* from Ximian's website and get Gnome on my box and have it working without a hitch is amazing for Linux. Users like myself do not want to have to deal with what packages do I need and don't. Linux came with 1,500 Apps! What more could I need? GAMES!!! Give me 3D Fragfest 2001! Granted, I do not need 1500 apps, but at least I know if I do need it, I sure don't have to download it on my crappy modem connection.
To the Linux Community: You guys are tackiling the impossible with nothing, and my respect to you. But if you get anything out of this message, simplicity is it.
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Menudrake
by Whitney Battestilli on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @20:58
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I would love to see an installer that can convert the KDE menus to the Mandrake menufiles. It's tough when every install (accept a mandrake rpm) makes .desktop files and then then Mandrake blows them all away.
On a side note, does anybody know of a way to easily convert kde menus to the Mandrake/debian menufiles? Menudrake is pretty horrible.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Haakon Meland Eriksen on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @23:44
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Could you include a check for free diskspace and recommended memory on the very first installation sheet?
This way the user can abort immediately (unlike most software on the MS platform) or remove, move or whatever needs to be done if there is not enough diskspace.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Diego on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @01:05
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Great idea for newbies like me !
Here is my need :
I work for a large company so :
my machine is a Sun workstation with Sun OS
I don't have root access and need to call my system'admin to complete the installation (setuid...)
I need to install kde on my own account
I'm really too much a novice to complete the installation from source code.
Actually, I'm not very much interested in the technology behind kde/linux/... I'm a simple user.
Is there a way to make the installer so much rookie-proof ?
Thanks for your contribution !
Diego
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Slick.....
by Wes yates on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @03:22
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Very good! Well done! Looks too much like Windows, but realy very solid. I only wish I programed :-(
Good luck!
-Wes
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Nick Betcher on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @08:02
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"He also needs other developers to get involved, as he is relatively new to C++/OO programming."
Please help! I need everyone's help. I just realized last night when I was in bed that more than 1.5 million people are counting on me. ME! Me alone. /me runs around the room in panic. Webpage designers, code writers, Qt Designer people, documentors. I need serious help. It cant be done alone. I would appreciate any help at all.
Sincerely,
Nick Betcher
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Brandon Darbro on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @08:21
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Very nice concepts in your screenshots. One thing I was wondering if you could add (in post 1.0 releases) would be a system to check for necessary libraries and such. Once that is in place, myself and others could help create automated ways for locating, downloading, compiling, packaging and installing all the missing pieces... Then build KDE itself.
I see that as a great way of helping KDE end up on HP and Sun machines. Thoughts?
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by peter on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @09:00
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yeah , with my 1.4 ghz machine the compile of kde will be a snap ...
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Nick Betcher on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @09:59
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Notice to everyone interested:
A lot of heat is coming from slashdot. One person mentioned that I am new to programming with a very young attitude. I will admit that my programming needs work, but do I see anyone else taking this project up? No. I originally never wanted this much PR. Its horrible. I will go through with this to the end. Please don't dought me. I do appreciate the optimisim from a lot of you.
As for me being young, I admit it. I am 16 years of age. Does that make me unable to write code? Am I doomed from the start just because I'm young? If some of you say 'yes', I would like to please know why. There are a few people my age (and even younger) that create quality KDE applications that are in your local copy of KDE. I wont name names because those people don't want the heat from slashdoters and others commenting on their youth.
Also, I would like to make it clear that this project was never a one-man project. I only wanted this post to stay on the dot so that I could get helpful comments, and people willing to help me write code. Also, being a 16 year-old, I attend High School daily. You may think that is going to put a dent into my programming, but like I said before, this isnt a one-man project.
At this point I appreciate all of your comments, dont get me wrong. Please continue to comment. I wont make anymore complaints about the slashdot ones because I'm not reading them anymore.
If you would like to talk to me, please do so. I will be (active) on IRC from 3:00PM CST to 10:30PM CST on irc.openprojects.net in #kde-users.
Thank you all again, I hope I can fullfil all of your feature requests.
Nick Betcher
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Eric on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @12:34
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1st) Here's another useful possibility. If the installer could facilitate having CVS/alpha/beta installs that DON'T replace the stable installs, I myself would be much more eager to install and test new versions and features. As it stands I'm pretty reticent to get into the CVS stuff, because I don't know enough to get a setup where new libraries coexist with old libraries, etc. But if the installer could facilitate this, I could be testing a daily build with no problems - it breaks in some way, I just quit KDE2.5.unstable, possibly reboot, and choose KDE2.1.stable from KDM.
I'd also like to voice my support for having the installer help you along with the process of compiling, as compiler optimizations combined with being able to eliminate apps and features you don't need would give everyone a tight, fast KDE desktop to show to their friends
2nd)
Nick,
Kudos to you for generating energy and discussion on this much needed subject, even if you never write a single line of code.
Cheers,
Eric
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Ariya Hidayat on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @12:51
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Shouldn't it be text-based ? Imagine a GNOME user with almost no kde libraries at all (at least QT should be there). Or after a problem with X. Or someone that installs Linux/BSD from NULL.
A KDE Updater can be a KDE 1.x application, as its purpose is to update into newer version. But a KDE Installer may only assume that the user might only have X Window.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Jesper Juhl on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @16:51
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I Just hope that it will work across distributions and platforms.
I myself have quite a few x86 based systems running Slackware, QNX, FreeBSD (and I'm setting up a new Solaris box as well), an AlphaServer running Slackware and a AlphaStation running Debian. None of those are RPM based, so how will this installer work on my systems - not that I think I myself would use it, but it's something that should be thought about.
If the installer is going to be really usefull it should run on all the platforms that KDE runs on and it should be (Linux/*BSD)distribution independant!
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Nick Betcher on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @18:00
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*sigh* (once again) The installer isnt Redhat-centric. It will support much more than RPM based systems. Enough said, hehe.
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Ferdinand GAssauer on Thursday 15/Feb/2001, @22:42
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Hi!
please separate the languages!
most users will only need english + their local language. (see SuSE packages)
cu ferdinand
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Dan Armak on Friday 16/Feb/2001, @03:31
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I don't really think an RPM installer interface is needed. What would really be welcome is a GUI for compiling and installing all packages from sources/cvs with automatic updating, cvsup, diff installing...
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Nick Betcher on Friday 16/Feb/2001, @06:42
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This installer might one day support CVS, but as of now, I am taking it one step at a time. There are plenty of projects and programs out there that will compile and isntall CVS for you. Please look around for them, I dont know any off the top of my head. The best place to probably look for them is in kdenonbeta or kdesdk! kdenonbeta is always full of goodies, like the installer :)
Heh, if you think downloading and installing KDE from the CVS is hard, try maintaining your project in it... *grrr* :)
Bye all!
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Re: KDE Installer Project
by Nick Betcher on Friday 16/Feb/2001, @06:45
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s/isntall/install
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Cool idea
by Max on Monday 01/Jul/2002, @13:28
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Great idea, I actually had posted this idea as a bug, only to get a hurl of abuse from a particular kde developer. :-( .
Anyway, could the installer maybe also have other features like ximian red carpet, such as news on new/updated kde projects, with the ability to download/update them on your computer? And would this be like red carpet where you have a long list where you tick in the nice boxes? If so, great, I can't wait till it's ready.
Also, instead of calling it plain boring 'KDE installer' , why not call it something like 'KDE Orange Karpet' ?????
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Posted by Navindra Umanee on Wednesday 14/Feb/2001, @05:52
