Oh come on i know evolutions nice but to say its not an outlook clone is being naive or stubborn. Its funny how you gnome guys get away with trolling on the dot.

Craig

• Re: Focus on Infusion by no-control on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @00:07

  It's functionality is pretty much the same, it sends emails, receives them, does some stuff with calendars, tasks and addresses. :) Thankfully all the functionality I could ask for in a mailer :) Camel is probably more modular than anything in Outlook, but it's just a clone of Javamail, or JMail or something like that. And I'd not be surprised if Outlook isn't internally quite similar in ideas to Evolution, the only difference is, we don't know how Outlook is done :)

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by KDE User on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @02:42

  You hit the nail on the head.. Maybe Craig needs the same?

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by Craig Black on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @02:49

  [ADMIN: Please do not reply further to this thread] The guy was a gnome developer pushing evolution on the dot. I think calling him out was necessary. The free software folks have done a very good job of determing what is politalically correct in the open source circles. Being pro kde on public forums like Slash Dot is "uncool" and "trolling". While being pro gnome is the correct position. Sorry if i don't follow the rules and bend a few. One thing i know is once you no longer argue ideas but attack on a personnel level you just committed a "immature rant". Craig

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by Chad Kitching on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @03:36

  Yet neither you nor Shawn can say anything other than Aethera is not an Outlook clone, and Evolution is an Outlook clone. The Evolution developers for the most part have admitted that the user interface on Evolution was modeled after Outlook, but maintain that the underlying framework is nothing like it. The people advocating Aethera have not really given any real reason why Aethera should not be considered an Outlook clone. Now, if you were a developer of a program that received negative comments on some site, wouldn't you feel the need to comment? If you look, he didn't attack Aethera, or any other KDE program, he merely felt the need to correct what he felt was an error, although perhaps he was a little too enthusiastic. On the other hand, we have you and Shawn that are just repeating the same line over and over again about cloning Outlook. From my perspective, you're the troll and Jamin is not. And you want to know what? Admitting that Microsoft might've actually done things right in "uncool" and "trolling" on Slashdot, too, so I'm going to break the rules, too. I think Microsoft did a wonderful job with the interface on Microsoft Outlook 2000. With a little configuration, it's a highly capable and efficient mail/news/calendaring/contacts/journal program. Many of it's features, such as Auto-preview, save me a great deal of time in helping me sort through the mail I need to read and respond to, and the ones that can be deleted and/or ignored without a response. Perhaps one of these messages, one of you will say why you feel that Aethera is not a clone of Outlook, just as Jamin did.

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by Evan "JabberWokky" E. on Sunday 17/Jun/2001, @16:49

  >> Perhaps one of these messages, one of you will say why you feel that Aethera is not a clone of Outlook, just as Jamin did. First off, let me say that I am going to try and answer in a very non-trollish way... but AFAIK, no one in the thread has attempted to answer this. Let me also say that I think that Outlook, Lotus Notes, Aethera, Evolution, etc are pretty much interchangeable programs - they are all built to do pretty much the same things, and as such, pull from each other heavily. Now, having said that, let me try and explore the two things that I am aware that Aethera has that kick it a notch above Outlook. First off, it has a clearly defined, open API for plugins. I developed Outlook objects for about a year, and while it has some functionality in this area, it is limited. Without having really used Aethera, the documentation makes it look like this functionality was designed from the start, rather than being added on, which really is a fundimental difference: but *only* if Aethera plugins take off. The thing that seems to really seperate it from the other PIMs is a nebulous thing that I freely admit that I don't quite understand. I've asked Shawn to explain it further, because it is *very* tantalizing, but not very well described. The concept is similar to DiBona's LookOut project - all data types are parsed into a common, linkable and indexed format. Thus, all your data is accessable in a structured way, whether it be a note you jotted down, an email, or an image. Each can annontate each other (I gather), and they can be structured into various thought grouping (which is done automatically by access, I believe). Now, if that works, that's enough to set it ahead for my use. If that makes it more than a "clone", that's up to you. Really, Outlook is a good program, and I don't see any harm in calling something a clone of a good program. I don't normally think "clone" implies that that is all that program will *ever* be... just that it drew heavily in inspiration from one (in this case, good) source. PLEASE keep all replies to the topic of Aethera features... the "is it or isn't it a clone" is a matter of opinion, and will never be resolved. -- Evan

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by Chad Kitching on Monday 18/Jun/2001, @05:49

  "First off, it has a clearly defined, open API for plugins. [...] look like this functionality was designed from the start [...]" Now this is interesting. Indeed this could be a very powerful feature and "selling point". I'd really be interested to know if they've defined a mail provider interface (much like Outlook uses MAPI providers), and if it's simple and generic enough to be [re]used by other mail applications. There are obviously PIM/groupware servers in the work (such as the Citadel/UX mentioned in the article), and if a fairly common API can be defined, programs could use it as a sort of plugin for non-integrated mail services. I have a feeling more and more servers will eventually pop-up that don't use IMAP or POP3 as their native protocol, or have features that can't be implemented in those protocols, and it'd be nice if the server creators could make a single shared library that could plug into all these different mail clients and just work independantly of toolkit, desktop or anything else. "The thing that seems to really seperate it from the other PIMs is a nebulous thing that I freely admit that I don't quite understand." Looks like it's what their website calls PDR... I don't quite get it, either. It'll probably be one of those things that you don't understand what's so great about it until you start using and relying on it. My problem in all of this was we had two people complaining that their program was not a clone and everyone else's was. I think this is a dangerous attitude to have, especially when you're developing a program. It can seriously blind you to limitations in your program that your "competitions" program doesn't suffer from. Whether any of these programs are a clone of Outlook isn't as important as how well it will do the job it's been designed for. It will certainly be interesting to see how all the projects evolve over the next year or so. I'm glad someone finally can tell me what differentiates it from the competition other than "look". At least they're all trying to break new ground, Aethera with those plugins and "PDR", Evolution with it's VFolders, and now Infusion with it's support of Citadel/UX. Although, now I'm interested in what's unique about Magellan, despite the fact that they seem to be either way behind schedule, or too busy to work on it (or maybe still bitter that theKompany forked magellan to make Aethera?).

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by Tackat on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @05:54

  No, actually it seems to me that he is trying to correct some statements you made in a public forum and he does it in a quite reasonable voice. This is certainly not what trolling is about. As long as he does that in a reasonable manner without flooding the forum with his opinion you have no right to call him out. I think before you try to do any further "advocacy" for KDE, theKompany etc. you might want to read Advocacy.html which is not only true for Linux but to a certain degree also for KDE. You might especially be interested in "6. Canons of Conduct" ... which says: "Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions." e.g. Tackat

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by Craig Black on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @21:49

  [ADMIN: Please do not reply further to this thread] Well the dot right now is crawling with closet and open gnome supporters that are trying direct discussion and spread miss information. I'm getting sick of it. Even anon of linux today fame for trolling openly and often against kde feels comfortable doing gnome advocacy here on the dot. Its getting hard to tell who's here to add something or push discussion and options away from what's best for kde. Kdes pulling so far ahead of gnome among user there resorting to less than ethical tactics. Craig

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by ik on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @22:36

  you see non-existant phantoms (don't know if this is right English). Maybe there are gnome users criticising kde on this forum, but why not ? kde ain't perfect yet ... and posts like "this is bad, i don't like the way thats' done because ..." help making kde better. if they spread misinformation, simply correct it.

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by jj on Saturday 16/Jun/2001, @23:57

  I disagree. There are definitely more trolls here now than there were a few months ago (I am not saying that these troll are Gnome supporters, to make that clear). But if you really do not care for the other environment, then you should stay away from their discussionboards.

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• Re: Focus on Infusion by advocates are boring on Sunday 17/Jun/2001, @01:22

  > Well the dot right now is crawling with closet > and open gnome supporters that are trying > direct discussion and spread miss > information. And how exactly is this claimed trolling different from what you were doing on Gnotices a week or two ago?

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• Troll by Craig Black on Sunday 17/Jun/2001, @01:48

  [ADMIN: Please do not reply further to this thread] Well advocates are boring. I'm assumeing that is your real name. I was promoting a desktop web poll on gnotices to make it fair. I pushed it here and on gnotices. In the end with over 4000 votes which were verified as good my the sites owner kde had a 9 to 1 margin over gnome. He finally had to drop the poll because someone tried to run a script to push up the gnome votes. It would have be fair if i just mentioned the poll here now would it? I wanted to know with as much accuracy as i could what the desktop user base was. I'm not saying kde has that big of lead though. There was another poll on www.freeos.com with over 1600 votes where KDE only got 57% and gnome came in at 19%. Which is a bit different. Thats was a bit more of a geek crowd however because the command line came in at 13% with 221. Craig

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• Troll by advocates are boring on Sunday 17/Jun/2001, @02:11

  [ADMIN: Please do not reply further to this thread] That's all you were doing, eh? I'll just provide a few choice quotes and let the public decide. craig: "Well i sent it here and the dot and linux today. It's not rigged i think the kde users are more enthusiastic than gnome users or there are more kde users. Thats the fact." (gnome-news1) craig: "That was then this is now. Kde has been moving at a much faster clip than gnome has. Since xiamian took over most of the development and kde stayed a hacker desktop i think that there has been many defecters to kde including me." (gnome-news2) craig: "Ah well this gnome defector will stay where the action is at kde. Were there is no xiamian or eazel just hackers" (same thread) craig: "Kde has pulled so far ahead of gnome and the fact that kde id still a hacker afair has made all the difference. The eazel thing and xiamian deal has really screwed gnome over. Mean while kde pulls way ahead in developement and user base. Its no longer a 50 50 affair." (gnome-news3) That all says TROLL to me.

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• ADMIN: Enough is Enough by Navindra Umanee on Sunday 17/Jun/2001, @03:50

  [Please do not reply to this message. Mail me directly for comments.] I think it is a given that Craig is what he is. This has been on enough forums for enough times. The public has to decide nothing, and certainly not here on dot.kde.org. Please stop this bullsh*t, we will use IP banning if forced to do so. Feel free to use our free-for-all trollfest forum meanwhile.

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• Re: Troll by Craig Black on Sunday 17/Jun/2001, @08:02

  Well showing one side of a converation is not a fair account of the conversation. I'm always a advocate and was very impressed my the gnome folks persistance in defending there project. The kde folks could learn a thing or two. But i was not purposely trolling i was inviteing them to the poll which spured a lively debate. The difference is i was not pretending to be something that i was'nt. Here i fear there are those that are not open with there motives. Craig

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