Andreas, Malte, Nikolas: Don't take this personally, but I just have to say this.

I find this article insulting.

• (Assuming for a minute that this is a good thing to have) It insults our non-ia32 users. Wine is not portable. To say that this helps Konqueror, and makes Konqueror the best browser on any platform, when this will only run on a few select platforms of KDE, dismisses all those users. Does Wine even run on all of the ia32 OSes that KDE runs on?
• It insults our memory and intelligence. For the longest time we've been told over and over how wonderful KParts are. From the KDE 2.0 press release:

  KDE 2: The K Desktop Environment. Konqueror is KDE 2's next-generation web browser, file manager and document viewer. Widely heralded as a technological break-through for the Linux desktop, the standards-compliant Konqueror has a component-based architecture which combines the features and functionality of Internet Explorer®/Netscape Communicator® and Windows Explorer®. Konqueror will support the full gamut of current Internet technologies, including JavaScript, Java®, HTML 4.0, CSS-1 and -2 (Cascading Style Sheets), SSL (Secure Socket Layer for secure communications) and Netscape Communicator® plug-ins (for playing FlashTM, RealAudioTM, RealVideoTM and similar technologies). The great bulk of this technology is already in place and functional for KDE 2.0.

  So back in October, we were led to believe that KParts are the "next generation," as they are what Konqueror is based on. What changed? Why is suddenly ActiveX a great "obstacle" removed, and a "shot in the arm" for the browser? Is ActiveX superior to KParts? What obstacles were in front of us before? And why couldn't they be removed in the KDE way - using our libraries, following our UI standards, and using Free Software licenses?
• Lastly, this article attempts to speak for the reader in ways I think are unfounded. How can things like the Shockwave player be "popular," when there was no way to run them on Unix before now? Or is it implied that all KDE users are Windows users, or ex-Windows users?

I see nothing wrong a developer for writing what he needs, and then sharing the results. I myself have an app in KDE that relies upon AOL servers. What I do think is wrong is when an article under the name of the head of the KDE League, on a site in the kde.org domain, makes these kind of assertions and implications about KDE and its users. Not everyone likes Windows, uses Windows, needs Windows, can run Windows, or even knows what runs on Windows these days. To portray the KDE community, and KDE apps, as aspiring to be Windows, is insulting.

• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Timothy R. Butler on Wednesday 11/Jul/2001, @00:35

  Actually WINE-based support is VERY important, AFAIK. Unless I've missed something, ActiveX is very platform specific, so implementing ActiveX API's using KDE libraries wouldn't do any good unless someone released an ActiveX control for Linux. And, if they did that, why not just release a KPart? -Tim

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Neil Stevens on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @03:20

  > as Microsoft goes down in flames! That kind of obsession with Windows would harm KDE, if the development community engaged in it. KDE is no more in competition with Windows than it is with GNOME. Some organizations that package KDE may be, but KDE itself isn't. KDE just ships code. No more, no less.

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by not me on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @04:25

  Sorry, I was kind of kidding about that. I certainly don't really believe Microsoft is going to go down in flames on KDE's part. They've got billions of $ to burn, and if KDE really starts to threaten them, they will just spend their money on making Windows better until it's better than KDE. They could do that for years without selling a single copy of Windows, with the cash hoard they've built up. Heck, they could probably do it on the interest on Bill Gates' personal fortune alone. So Microsoft isn't going down in flames anytime soon (unless the DOJ has a major change of opinion), and it's probably a good thing anyway.

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Timothy R. Butler on Wednesday 11/Jul/2001, @00:39

  Hey notme, Thanks for pointing out Bochs! I certainly appreciate it! -Tim (the Bochs web admin)

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Neil Stevens on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @04:38

  > Also as a reality check the fact is that > KDE should not limit itself to things > available for all possible platforms > particularly when something relies on a > large Open Source project that developers of > other platforms are free to port over if > they deem it important enough. Of course people are free to use KDE in platform-specific ways, or in proprietary ways. That doesn't mean that the KDE news site, in the kde.org domain, has to act like they're a fundamental breakthrough for an open source project. > After all, WINE has an X-type license. Is Shockwave, or any of the other apps you suggest are useful with ActiveX, available under that license? You say that ActiveX is a shot in the arm for Konqueror. Obviously you mean that it's the use of these "popular" ActiveX components that is a great boon for Konqueror's users. If these non-free components are what you are celebrating, then this is a break from normal KDE practice - to get things working with free software. > Remember that "it's the apps, stupid". Paraphrasing the Clinton/Gore '92 campaign doesn't win any points with me. :-) But let's look at what that expression means. By saying "It's the economy, stupid," the Clinton campaign meant that the economy was the number one, most important thing in the campaign, and in the country. All other issues were beneath it, and could be compromised for it. So, by saying "It's the apps, stupid," you're saying that just having these apps is more important than any other aspect of KDE, and that any other aspect of KDE can be compromised for having more apps. As I understand it, one of the fundamental aspects of KDE is that the apps are free. By championing ActiveX, you're implicitly putting it over all existing free KParts, and implying that freedom is not a valuable attribute for users of software to have. Is that what you mean to do, compromise freedom for more apps and users? Where would we be if, instead of having our own open source html renderer, we instead added hooks to use some internet explorer DLL to do the rendering? Or if aRts were as reliant upon non-free software as xanim? Be careful what you paraphrase. > If an Open Source Shockwave Flash Player were > available, or an Open Source Robinson codec, > I would agree with you. But they currently > are not, and with reaktivate, KDE users will > no longer be deprived of the web sites that > feature those technologies until they become > available natively. Well, plenty will be. Every KDE user not on ia32 will be. Do you mean to say that Konqueror is not a superior browswer on any platform where Wine isn't supported, because people there lack the ability to run these non-free apps? > According to Macromedia's website, over 200 > million users have Shockwave installed. If > that's not popular, I don't know what is! But what is your audience here? KDE Users and Developers, or "the web" in general? My impression of dot.kde.org was the former. Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too. Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org if someone ported the latest MS Office run under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here? > I think if you read the article > with the picture of Konqueror/KDE going > into the mainstream in mind > you might view it differently. What do you mean by mainstream? Mainstream Windows users? Are these "mainstream" users more important to you than the principles that got KDE where it is today? You know, at first, I thought the article was exaggerated in tone just in awe of Malte's and Niko's work. Now you've made it clear to me that there was no exaggeration. Your goalfor KDE seems to be that KDE should be used by as many people as possible, even if making that happen means running as much propreitary Windows software as possible. > In fact I'm not sure what the article > has to do with Windows, except to say that > technologies previously available only on > Windows (and maybe the Mac) are now available > for the great bulk of Linux/Unix users. Er, FYI, Wine is the "Wine Is Not an Emulator" project: a port of the Win32 API to unix, and a system for running Windows binaries under unix. This has everything to do with bringing proprietary Windows software to KDE.

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Jon on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @05:53

  You seem to dislike the idea of any closed source programs running in Linux. Well, you're in the minority. You said: Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too. Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org if someone ported the latest MS Office run under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here? I say: I would love it if Microsoft Office (97 in my case) ran absolutely flawlessly under Linux (it runs off and on under Wine, but it would be lovely to have a native Linux port). Office is one of the jewels in the Microsoft crown, and my favorite word processor... although my favorite version was Word 2 (I've got the 4 floppies it came on sitting around somewhere :). However, I still find KOffice very exciting, not because it will replease Microsoft Office, but because it increases choice, variety and competitiveness. No-one has made any attack, actual or implied, on KParts. After all your long and rambling posts, I'm still not sure why you think there has been. Supporting ActiveX is exactly the same (and implemented in a similar, if more complicated way), to supporting closed Netscape plugins -- do you think that *they* are a threat to KParts as well?

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by unterbear on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @22:16

  > Are these "mainstream" users more important >to you than the principles that got KDE where it >is today? hahahaha... see the flamewar that spawned gnome for some perspective on that statement. It seems to me that KDE has always been about providing a Free desktop environment for *nix, even if that means using a few tools that aren't quite as "free" as some of the more rabid zealots would like them to be.

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Timothy R. Butler on Wednesday 11/Jul/2001, @01:17

  > Of course people are free to use KDE in > platform-specific ways, or in proprietary > ways. That doesn't mean that the KDE news > site, in the kde.org domain, has to act like > they're a fundamental breakthrough for an > open source project. Okay - let me understand what you are saying. If a program only works for 90%+ of all computers users, but forgets those that use sizably less popular architectures, it shouldn't be posted? C'mon! The place were a non-IA architecture doesn't reign as the market leader is the embedded space. Does this mean since the majority of PC users don't use KDE at all, that no KDE news should ever be posted anywhere? > > After all, WINE has an X-type license. > Is Shockwave, or any of the other apps you > suggest are useful with ActiveX, available > under that license? You don't seem to understand the point. If the ActiveX controls where open source this wouldn't be needed. However, if KDE stubbornly refused the fact that most people want to be able to have Shockwave, et. al., we would have a ticket to a failing platform. KDE developers understand that the key to making KDE a success is to support all major technologies. Like it or not, ActiveX is a major technology. Tell me, most Netscape Plugins aren't open source either, does that mean that Konqi shouldn't have Netscape Plugin support? > You say that ActiveX is a shot in the arm for > Konqueror. Obviously you mean that it's the > use of these "popular" ActiveX components > that is a great boon for Konqueror's users. > If these non-free components are what you > are celebrating, then this is a break from > normal KDE practice - to get things working > with free software. No it isn't. Everything is working with free software. However, we can't get the Shockwave source, so what do we do? The KDE Developers understand they can't stick their heads in the sand and pretend that the majority of PC users expect and demand supprot for things like Shockwave. Until Linux/KDE commands enough market share that major developers support it, it must be accepted that KDE needs to develop "compatibility modules." > > Remember that "it's the apps, stupid". [clip] > But let's look at what that expression > means. By saying "It's the economy, stupid," > the Clinton campaign meant that the economy > was the number one, most important thing in > the campaign, and in the country. All other > issues were beneath it, and could be > compromised for it. Exactly. Without apps, what exactly does KDE do for us? Apps are everything in a computer. > championing ActiveX, you're implicitly > putting it over all existing free KParts, > and implying that freedom is not a valuable > attribute for users of software to have. Is > that what you mean to do, compromise freedom > for more apps and users? You are blowing this way out of proportion. No one said that KParts should take second fiddle to ActiveX. You seem to be interperating this as they are being in ActiveX for replacing the way of embedding things like KHTML. However, you seem to miss that ActiveX also serves a similar purpose to Netscape Plugins. KDE didn't push aside KParts by supporting Netscape Plugins, neither do they push it aside by supporting ActiveX. That's like saying supporting a new type of printer is pushing aside truetype font support. > Where would we be if, instead of having our > own open source html renderer, we instead > added hooks to use some internet explorer > DLL to do the rendering? Or if aRts were as > reliant upon non-free software as xanim? Now you seem to be comparing supporting proprietary technology with making it part of key systems in KDE. ActiveX support isn't proprietary, the stuff that runs on it often is. The same goes for WINE itself. WINE isn't proprietary, but it supports many proprietary apps. Their is a difference between being proprietary, and supporting such. > Well, plenty will be. Every KDE user not on > ia32 will be. Do you mean to say that Okay, if you go by Linux sales statistics (and Linux is by far the most popular desktop *NIX), I'm pretty sure you would see that less than 1 in 50 Linux users is a non-IA32 Linux user. Let's face it, it doesn't make sense to cater to the 1, and ignore the 49. > Konqueror is not a superior browswer on any > platform where Wine isn't supported, because > people there lack the ability to run these > non-free apps? No. But it makes KDE EVEN better because this is a major internet technology that can't just be replaces with a OSS clone. If you don't like that most ActiveX controls are non-free, go make an OSS ActiveX control for yourself. > But what is your audience here? KDE Users > and Developers, or "the web" in general? My > impression of dot.kde.org was the former. Well according to the article it simply said "popular," which would mean "overall," not just for those that read the dot. Most KDE users probably would like to use "overall popular" technologies simply because they run into sites that require them. > Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too. > Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org > if someone ported the latest MS Office run > under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the > removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed > KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here? Neil, you just don't seem to get the point of the whole thing. What they are saying is stuff that probably will never (at least for a long time) be ported to a KPart can now be used. Macromedia IS NOT GOING to make a KPart (AFAIK), because there simply isn't the demand yet. Like I keep saying, it's just like netscape plugins. Now, you go back to apps again. ActiveX is a technology, KOffice is an application. ActiveX is not proprietary itself, MS Office is. You can't replace all of the ActiveX controls, because you would get your pants sued off buy the companies that own the patents on the technology. You can clone MS Office functionality because no one owns the rights to the idea of an "office suite." > What do you mean by mainstream? Mainstream > Windows users? Are these "mainstream" users > more important to you than the principles > that got KDE where it is today? Yes. If KDE doesn't care about mainstream users, you can pretty much give up on KDE becoming mainsteam itself. Do you want Linux to become another Amiga, or GEM, or GeoWorks, or even Apple? NO! We want Linux and KDE to be a success - thus we shouldn't follow ill-fated or unsuccessful company's ideas. > You know, at first, I thought the article was > exaggerated in tone just in awe of Malte's > and Niko's work. Now you've made it clear to > me that there was no exaggeration. Nor should it be, it is absolutely amazing, and great! > Your goalfor KDE seems to be that KDE should > be used by as many people as possible, even > if making that happen means running as much > propreitary Windows software as possible. Somethings may never be open source. Will Macromedia make Shockwave open? I don't think so. Will Apple make QuickTime open? Yeah right. Still users need support for this popular internet standards. How do you expect to accomplish this otherwise? IN CONCLUSION: You seem to be only seeing this as that KDE might support some proprietary software. Does this mean that KDE shouldn't support Netscape Plugins? Does this mean we should make it difficult for Opera Software to make the Opera browser? Does that mean all of KDE's libraries should be switched from BSD and LGPL licenses to the GPL so only open source software should be written? NO! KDE will remain open, but that doesn't mean it can't support non-open programs, because THEY ARE NEEDED by MANY, if not MOST people. -Tim

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Timothy R. Butler on Wednesday 11/Jul/2001, @01:19

  > Of course people are free to use KDE in > platform-specific ways, or in proprietary > ways. That doesn't mean that the KDE news > site, in the kde.org domain, has to act like > they're a fundamental breakthrough for an > open source project. Okay - let me understand what you are saying. If a program only works for 90%+ of all computers users, but forgets those that use sizably less popular architectures, it shouldn't be posted? C'mon! The place were a non-IA architecture doesn't reign as the market leader is the embedded space. Does this mean since the majority of PC users don't use KDE at all, that no KDE news should ever be posted anywhere? > > After all, WINE has an X-type license. > Is Shockwave, or any of the other apps you > suggest are useful with ActiveX, available > under that license? You don't seem to understand the point. If the ActiveX controls where open source this wouldn't be needed. However, if KDE stubbornly refused the fact that most people want to be able to have Shockwave, et. al., we would have a ticket to a failing platform. KDE developers understand that the key to making KDE a success is to support all major technologies. Like it or not, ActiveX is a major technology. Tell me, most Netscape Plugins aren't open source either, does that mean that Konqi shouldn't have Netscape Plugin support? > You say that ActiveX is a shot in the arm for > Konqueror. Obviously you mean that it's the > use of these "popular" ActiveX components > that is a great boon for Konqueror's users. > If these non-free components are what you > are celebrating, then this is a break from > normal KDE practice - to get things working > with free software. No it isn't. Everything is working with free software. However, we can't get the Shockwave source, so what do we do? The KDE Developers understand they can't stick their heads in the sand and pretend that the majority of PC users expect and demand supprot for things like Shockwave. Until Linux/KDE commands enough market share that major developers support it, it must be accepted that KDE needs to develop "compatibility modules." > > Remember that "it's the apps, stupid". [clip] > But let's look at what that expression > means. By saying "It's the economy, stupid," > the Clinton campaign meant that the economy > was the number one, most important thing in > the campaign, and in the country. All other > issues were beneath it, and could be > compromised for it. Exactly. Without apps, what exactly does KDE do for us? Apps are everything in a computer. > championing ActiveX, you're implicitly > putting it over all existing free KParts, > and implying that freedom is not a valuable > attribute for users of software to have. Is > that what you mean to do, compromise freedom > for more apps and users? You are blowing this way out of proportion. No one said that KParts should take second fiddle to ActiveX. You seem to be interperating this as they are being in ActiveX for replacing the way of embedding things like KHTML. However, you seem to miss that ActiveX also serves a similar purpose to Netscape Plugins. KDE didn't push aside KParts by supporting Netscape Plugins, neither do they push it aside by supporting ActiveX. That's like saying supporting a new type of printer is pushing aside truetype font support. > Where would we be if, instead of having our > own open source html renderer, we instead > added hooks to use some internet explorer > DLL to do the rendering? Or if aRts were as > reliant upon non-free software as xanim? Now you seem to be comparing supporting proprietary technology with making it part of key systems in KDE. ActiveX support isn't proprietary, the stuff that runs on it often is. The same goes for WINE itself. WINE isn't proprietary, but it supports many proprietary apps. Their is a difference between being proprietary, and supporting such. > Well, plenty will be. Every KDE user not on > ia32 will be. Do you mean to say that Okay, if you go by Linux sales statistics (and Linux is by far the most popular desktop *NIX), I'm pretty sure you would see that less than 1 in 50 Linux users is a non-IA32 Linux user. Let's face it, it doesn't make sense to cater to the 1, and ignore the 49. > Konqueror is not a superior browswer on any > platform where Wine isn't supported, because > people there lack the ability to run these > non-free apps? No. But it makes KDE EVEN better because this is a major internet technology that can't just be replaces with a OSS clone. If you don't like that most ActiveX controls are non-free, go make an OSS ActiveX control for yourself. > But what is your audience here? KDE Users > and Developers, or "the web" in general? My > impression of dot.kde.org was the former. Well according to the article it simply said "popular," which would mean "overall," not just for those that read the dot. Most KDE users probably would like to use "overall popular" technologies simply because they run into sites that require them. > Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too. > Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org > if someone ported the latest MS Office run > under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the > removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed > KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here? Neil, you just don't seem to get the point of the whole thing. What they are saying is stuff that probably will never (at least for a long time) be ported to a KPart can now be used. Macromedia IS NOT GOING to make a KPart (AFAIK), because there simply isn't the demand yet. Like I keep saying, it's just like netscape plugins. Now, you go back to apps again. ActiveX is a technology, KOffice is an application. ActiveX is not proprietary itself, MS Office is. You can't replace all of the ActiveX controls, because you would get your pants sued off buy the companies that own the patents on the technology. You can clone MS Office functionality because no one owns the rights to the idea of an "office suite." > What do you mean by mainstream? Mainstream > Windows users? Are these "mainstream" users > more important to you than the principles > that got KDE where it is today? Yes. If KDE doesn't care about mainstream users, you can pretty much give up on KDE becoming mainsteam itself. Do you want Linux to become another Amiga, or GEM, or GeoWorks, or even Apple? NO! We want Linux and KDE to be a success - thus we shouldn't follow ill-fated or unsuccessful company's ideas. > You know, at first, I thought the article was > exaggerated in tone just in awe of Malte's > and Niko's work. Now you've made it clear to > me that there was no exaggeration. Nor should it be, it is absolutely amazing, and great! > Your goalfor KDE seems to be that KDE should > be used by as many people as possible, even > if making that happen means running as much > propreitary Windows software as possible. Somethings may never be open source. Will Macromedia make Shockwave open? I don't think so. Will Apple make QuickTime open? Yeah right. Still users need support for this popular internet standards. How do you expect to accomplish this otherwise? IN CONCLUSION: You seem to be only seeing this as that KDE might support some proprietary software. Does this mean that KDE shouldn't support Netscape Plugins? Does this mean we should make it difficult for Opera Software to make the Opera browser? Does that mean all of KDE's libraries should be switched from BSD and LGPL licenses to the GPL so only open source software should be written? NO! KDE will remain open, but that doesn't mean it can't support non-open programs, because THEY ARE NEEDED by MANY, if not MOST people. -Tim

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Neil Stevens on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @04:40

  Then, instead of swooning over ActiveX plugins being available, why not just write KParts for the desired functionality?

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by ik on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @05:59

  no. YOU do it. good luck trying to implement opensource sorenson codecs, shockwave player, windows media player compatible stuff .... now you ask those people who develop'd reaktivate to do just the same in 3 years more time (no, more) with legal risks because just ... you got 'insulted' by activex, not even because its bad. Reaktivate is there for compatibility reasons. It makes technology available to more people (not to all people because it ain't possible - but konqueror is not there for blind users either)

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by anonymous on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @06:33

  That's just what they did. The wrote a kpart component which allows graphical embedding of COM components. The fact that the backend is actually implemented using wine is an implementation detail. An important one, though, of course, as it's the only possible way to get stuff like shockwave running. But still for KDE it just means that there is a component available to which you can pass a URL to a shockwave file and it does the job. How performant and stable the whole thing is in the reality to the end-user still needs to be seen. But technically it's a very exciting thing and fun to implement/hack . (and fun is what counts when it comes to motivation in free software development) As it works, why not tell people about it? After all it's something completely new on linux (it's not that they just plugged in wine and it worked, they had to implement quite some stuff in wine itself and implement a good chunk of interfaces) . The fact that it runs only in x86 is a pity, but it's not their fault. Instead it's a design limitation of the underlying technology that simply can't be resolved. And given the fact that x86 is a popular KDE platform it's just a good reason to tell other KDE developers about this project.

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by bg on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @11:34

  man you're so dumb

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Timothy R. Butler on Wednesday 11/Jul/2001, @01:23

  Maybe because the KDE developers don't have the time to rewrite Shockwave and Quicktime for KPart? Maybe because they can't afford the laywers when Apple comes down in one big swoop and sues the pants off of them for making anything even somewhat resembling the other "QT" without King Steven Jobs XIII for permission? -Tim

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• Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated by Jelmer Feenstra on Tuesday 10/Jul/2001, @09:53

  Well said !

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This is a complete misunderstanding. ActiveX does in no way replace KParts, those controls like Shockwave are not provided by reaktivate, they are used by it. You obviously didn't bother to have a look at the code before assuming it's some kind of KParts "replacement". If you did, you would have noticed that reaktivate is a KPart.