faq
flatforty
contribute
subscribe
configure
search
rdf
main
parent
thread
|
Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated
by Timothy R. Butler on Wednesday 11/Jul/2001, @01:19
|
> Of course people are free to use KDE in
> platform-specific ways, or in proprietary
> ways. That doesn't mean that the KDE news
> site, in the kde.org domain, has to act like
> they're a fundamental breakthrough for an
> open source project.
Okay - let me understand what you are saying.
If a program only works for 90%+ of all
computers users, but forgets those that use
sizably less popular architectures, it
shouldn't be posted? C'mon! The place were a
non-IA architecture doesn't reign as the market
leader is the embedded space. Does this mean
since the majority of PC users don't use KDE at
all, that no KDE news should ever be posted
anywhere?
> > After all, WINE has an X-type license.
> Is Shockwave, or any of the other apps you
> suggest are useful with ActiveX, available
> under that license?
You don't seem to understand the point. If
the ActiveX controls where open source this
wouldn't be needed. However, if KDE stubbornly
refused the fact that most people want to be
able to have Shockwave, et. al., we would have
a ticket to a failing platform. KDE developers
understand that the key to making KDE a success
is to support all major technologies. Like it
or not, ActiveX is a major technology.
Tell me, most Netscape Plugins aren't open
source either, does that mean that Konqi
shouldn't have Netscape Plugin support?
> You say that ActiveX is a shot in the arm for
> Konqueror. Obviously you mean that it's the
> use of these "popular" ActiveX components
> that is a great boon for Konqueror's users.
> If these non-free components are what you
> are celebrating, then this is a break from
> normal KDE practice - to get things working
> with free software.
No it isn't. Everything is working with free
software. However, we can't get the Shockwave
source, so what do we do? The KDE Developers
understand they can't stick their heads in the
sand and pretend that the majority of PC users
expect and demand supprot for things like
Shockwave. Until Linux/KDE commands enough
market share that major developers support it,
it must be accepted that KDE needs to develop
"compatibility modules."
> > Remember that "it's the apps, stupid".
[clip]
> But let's look at what that expression
> means. By saying "It's the economy, stupid,"
> the Clinton campaign meant that the economy
> was the number one, most important thing in
> the campaign, and in the country. All other
> issues were beneath it, and could be
> compromised for it.
Exactly. Without apps, what exactly does KDE
do for us? Apps are everything in a computer.
> championing ActiveX, you're implicitly
> putting it over all existing free KParts,
> and implying that freedom is not a valuable
> attribute for users of software to have. Is
> that what you mean to do, compromise freedom
> for more apps and users?
You are blowing this way out of proportion.
No one said that KParts should take second
fiddle to ActiveX. You seem to be interperating
this as they are being in ActiveX for replacing
the way of embedding things like KHTML.
However, you seem to miss that ActiveX also
serves a similar purpose to Netscape Plugins.
KDE didn't push aside KParts by supporting
Netscape Plugins, neither do they push it aside
by supporting ActiveX. That's like saying
supporting a new type of printer is pushing
aside truetype font support.
> Where would we be if, instead of having our
> own open source html renderer, we instead
> added hooks to use some internet explorer
> DLL to do the rendering? Or if aRts were as
> reliant upon non-free software as xanim?
Now you seem to be comparing supporting
proprietary technology with making it part of
key systems in KDE. ActiveX support isn't
proprietary, the stuff that runs on it often
is. The same goes for WINE itself. WINE isn't
proprietary, but it supports many proprietary
apps. Their is a difference between being
proprietary, and supporting such.
> Well, plenty will be. Every KDE user not on
> ia32 will be. Do you mean to say that
Okay, if you go by Linux sales statistics
(and Linux is by far the most popular desktop
*NIX), I'm pretty sure you would see that less
than 1 in 50 Linux users is a non-IA32 Linux
user. Let's face it, it doesn't make sense to
cater to the 1, and ignore the 49.
> Konqueror is not a superior browswer on any
> platform where Wine isn't supported, because
> people there lack the ability to run these
> non-free apps?
No. But it makes KDE EVEN better because this
is a major internet technology that can't just
be replaces with a OSS clone. If you don't like
that most ActiveX controls are non-free, go
make an OSS ActiveX control for yourself.
> But what is your audience here? KDE Users
> and Developers, or "the web" in general? My
> impression of dot.kde.org was the former.
Well according to the article it simply said
"popular," which would mean "overall," not just
for those that read the dot. Most KDE users
probably would like to use "overall popular"
technologies simply because they run into sites
that require them.
> Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too.
> Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org
> if someone ported the latest MS Office run
> under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the
> removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed
> KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here?
Neil, you just don't seem to get the point of
the whole thing. What they are saying is stuff
that probably will never (at least for a long
time) be ported to a KPart can now be used.
Macromedia IS NOT GOING to make a KPart
(AFAIK), because there simply isn't the demand
yet. Like I keep saying, it's just like
netscape plugins.
Now, you go back to apps again. ActiveX is a
technology, KOffice is an application. ActiveX
is not proprietary itself, MS Office is. You
can't replace all of the ActiveX controls,
because you would get your pants sued off buy
the companies that own the patents on the
technology. You can clone MS Office
functionality because no one owns the rights to
the idea of an "office suite."
> What do you mean by mainstream? Mainstream
> Windows users? Are these "mainstream" users
> more important to you than the principles
> that got KDE where it is today?
Yes. If KDE doesn't care about mainstream
users, you can pretty much give up on KDE
becoming mainsteam itself. Do you want Linux to
become another Amiga, or GEM, or GeoWorks, or
even Apple? NO! We want Linux and KDE to be a
success - thus we shouldn't follow ill-fated or
unsuccessful company's ideas.
> You know, at first, I thought the article was
> exaggerated in tone just in awe of Malte's
> and Niko's work. Now you've made it clear to
> me that there was no exaggeration.
Nor should it be, it is absolutely amazing,
and great!
> Your goalfor KDE seems to be that KDE should
> be used by as many people as possible, even
> if making that happen means running as much
> propreitary Windows software as possible.
Somethings may never be open source. Will
Macromedia make Shockwave open? I don't think
so. Will Apple make QuickTime open? Yeah right.
Still users need support for this popular
internet standards. How do you expect to
accomplish this otherwise?
IN CONCLUSION: You seem to be only seeing this
as that KDE might support some proprietary
software. Does this mean that KDE shouldn't
support Netscape Plugins? Does this mean we
should make it difficult for Opera Software to
make the Opera browser? Does that mean all of
KDE's libraries should be switched from BSD and
LGPL licenses to the GPL so only open source
software should be written? NO!
KDE will remain open, but that doesn't mean it
can't support non-open programs, because THEY
ARE NEEDED by MANY, if not MOST people.
-Tim |
|
|
![[KDE Dot News]](http://www.kde.org/dot/Images/kdedotnews.gif)
