AUG
23
2002

KC KDE #43 is Up

KC KDE issue #43 is out
featuring everything from KDE 3.1's new look, the future of multimedia in KDE, a refitted Konqi, math app news, mouse news, and much more.
Get it here.

Comments

>On other development fronts it is said that RedHat's new beta includes a KDE
>version that is made to look like GNOME. Icons, widget-style and kicker apps
>have been replaced, as it has been whispered in the trees.

Oh dear god, that's horrible.


By Navindra Umanee at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Whats even cooler is they removed the about KDE, so you dont know you are running KDE. For all of the work they are putting into destroying KDE, why dont they just drop support?

Is it time to take a more agressive stance on packageing so we can keep some control how KDE looks? I mean is it KDE anymore, or should we just call it a fork?

Just wondering...
-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Can you give me full details on the changes? Have you tried this beta?


By Navindra Umanee at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Mostly off of what I have heard on IRC. I was planning on downloading this weekend, since I have to support RH for a client. So far all i know for sure is off of the changelog. There where some pretty wacked out patches applied from looks of it. They even say "Removeing KDE About Box", its pretty obvious they are looking to shut down KDE for good here.

Personally Id like to call RH on this one, but our liberal packageing policy has allowed them to fork KDE and trash it for the world to see. I dont know though, RH has been curiously silent on the issue thus far. Im waiting on their official response before I really get bent out of shape over this.

Personally I am more interested about this eOne/OpenOffice thing going down... Isnt this what RH has been talking about for their desktop linux?

Wacky... too much to read up on... really id rather be codeing :)

-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Actually, removing copyright notices (and those are there in the "about kde box")
is a violation of section 2c of the GPL.


By Roberto Alsina at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Wrong, copyright notices are in the "About foobar" box.


By Anonymous at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Not copyright notices for the LGPLd kdelibs. I was wrong in the provious post, though, it is a violation of section 6 of the LGPL, see post below for details.

But anyway, if it's real, it's stupid. It is like Stalin removing his dead enemies from official pictures.


By Roberto Alsina at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

"About KDE" contains following tabs: "About", "Report bugs or wishes", "Join the KDE team" and in KDE 3.1 "Supporting KDE". None of them mention copyrights, a license or kdelibs.


By Anonymous at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

"The K Desktop Environment is written and maintained by the KDE Team,
a world-wide network of software engineers committed to free software
development."

Sure, it doesn't say "copyright 2002 microsoft corp.".

However, it is a copyright notice. It is not a legal copyright notice
in the US.

But it is placed there by kdelibs, and refers to the authorship of "KDE",
which includes kdelibs.


By Roberto Alsina at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

>But anyway, if it's real, it's stupid.
>It is like Stalin removing his dead
>enemies from official pictures.

Ahh, there's nothing like a wild overreaction
from a zealot. You are clearly a lunatic and
*badly* need to get out more and get some
perspective.

Clue: RedHat has done nothing illegal or wrong.
Not that it will stop you and your jihad buddies
from calling down the wrath of the holy armies.

Get a bloody grip you loon.


By I am Wiggle at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

1) Since when is removing someone from a picture illegal?
2) Since when is removing someone from a picture you own wrong?

The answer to 1) is, of course, that it is not illegal.

The answer to 2) is that it *is* wrong if it is made for
some reasons, and not wrong if it is done by other reasons.

I think both Stalin's and Red Hat's reasons (if this has
actually happened) are wrong, despite not having spoken with
Stalin or Red Hat about it.

And I think the removal of this *is* against the licensing.
I could be convinced otherwise, though.

I could even be convinced, if someone from RH says why they are
doing it, that it is not a wrong thing to do. But it would have
to be a very convincing explanation.

I can even say that maybe Stalin could convince me there was a
good reason to remove those people from the pictures, you know.


By Roberto Alsina at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

The "About KDE" dialog doesn't explain at all what KDE actually is. Seeing that it is more than likely that people are using KDE apps in GNOME, this could be a problem. They shouldn't have to care about the difference and I think it's obvious that this was the thought behind the removal. But you should just ask RedHat if this concerns you.


By Spark at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

What people should or shouldn't care about, I do not care about.

I do care about Red Hat removing references to projects I do care about from
the code kindly provided to them by that very project.

I mean, we all would agree that, for example, changing the names of the applications
on the about dialogs would be bad, right?

And what about removing the about dialogs completely, and making them available only through a command line option? That would be bad too, right?

Removing this about dialog is bad in my opinion. Apparently not on your opinion. But hey, I care more about MY opinion ;-)

I have already asked RH.

As for the reason... I don't care about the reason all that much, in abstract.
I mean, sure, if they can explain, it may make sense, I can even agree.

But until they explain, I am pissed. Of course in the great order of things,
the anger of Roberto Alsina plays a very small role.


By Roberto Alsina at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

"I have already asked RH."

Fine, let's wait for the answer before we draw any further conclusions please. :)

"But until they explain, I am pissed. Of course in the great order of things,
the anger of Roberto Alsina plays a very small role."

Well... Right. ;) In the end it's all about serving the *user* and I hope that the KDE project as a whole stands behind this intention. Removing references to products is very well in the interest of a user, that's the same reason why there is absolutely no reference to Ximian (not even Evolution) in the menusystem unless you actually start the application (and then you have to launch the about box to see the Ximian logo the first time). All kind of branding has nothing to do in a GUI (even the red hat startmenu is questionable, but I don't think a foot or "K" is better ;)).
I'm not saying that copyright and "about" information shouldn't exist, of course it should be available somewhere from the KDE desktop.


By Spark at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

Again, I don't care if Ximian does it, if GNOME does it, or if the pope does it.

I care that KDE did it, and Red Hat removed it.

I don't care if you think it doesn't belong there, either. It wouldn't even matter if I thought it didn't belong there myself! (hell, I think I voted against it when it was discussed).

It WAS inside the app. It was a menu option at the bottom of the farthest menu item, about as unintrusive as it gets. But out it went.


By Roberto Alsina at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

This is tiresome and repetitive. Fine, you are against this. Bitch if you want to. It will not change anything anyway. You also probably misunderstood me. Ximian isn't doing anything, it's RedHat which has removed the branding of Ximian Evolution not Ximian itself. My only point is that it's done for a reason with a _lot_ of software. Nobody is complaining about this but KDE people. Again. This is really not a good attitude if you want to get the Linux desktop to more users.
Heck, I'm getting the impression that it would be easier to just fork the KDE desktop as "RedHat Desktop Environment" or something like that. ;) So unflexible... A shame for free software.


By Spark at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

Yes, it is repetitive and tiresome.

If Ximian jumped off a bridge, should we all jump, too?

Are you telling me Red Hat removed all references to Ximian from Evolution?

And sure. They have a reason. Which one? We don't know yet.
Are they doing it to a lot of software? Not important to me.
Noone is complaining? Their problem.

Get it? Or are you AGAIN going to say "Oh, but they did it to GNOME too" (No, they didn't because GNOME didn't have this)?

If you keep on saying the same thing, of course I am going to keep on saying why that same thing doesn't matter!


By Roberto Alsina at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

This is bad. Why are they doing this? They seem to be actively trying to destroy us by making us look bad. What is the point of all these stupid changes to cripple KDE and make us look like (or worse than) GNOME?

When you say Red Hat has been silent, does this mean they have been queried on the issue? Why should there be an official response if nobody asked them?


By Navindra Umanee at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

mmh, u say really a lot of sh****. sorry,. but I used limbo, and kde doesn't at all look bad. I think it's normal,if redhat trys to keep a consistent look and feel between all windowmanager in their ditribution. I thing this are only well-know trolls "gnome versus kde" and "redhat versus kde". U don't blame mandrake for their default kde look that is lot more ugly as that from mandrake!

daniel


By Daniel at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

You need to try it out before you rush to judgement. Redhat has stated that they are going to be supporting the desktop market, which means that they are going to be supporting BOTH gnome and kde. It is alot easier to support both desktops if the menus/icons look the same.

Most desktop users won't know that they are using KDE or GNOME, just the applcation 'x' is not working and they want to fix it. Having two desktops with completely different looks and feels is a support nightmare.


By Chris Parjer at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

'Mostly off of what I have heard on IRC'

Huh, not very reliable sources.

'Removing KDE About Box'...

That is violation if it is true, but seriously I don't think they did it.


By antialias at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Well irc is what got me looking at rpmfind and the changelog.

This is the link that got me interested:
- Added patch to remove "about KDE" menu item from help menu (bug #67287)
This effectively removes the about KDE part of the menu. While this isnt in violation of any license, it does make it so you dont know an app is a KDE app. Why would they do this.

As I said this weekend I am installing it to see what it is.

-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Ha,

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi

Permission denied. Sorry; you do not have the permissions necessary to see bug 67287.


By Roberto Alsina at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

Try creating an account, moron.


By Carlos Laviola at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

HELLO!

I have an account.

I logged in.

I still get:

Sorry; you do not have the permissions necessary to see bug 67287.

Welcome to CCCP 101

And just why is that hat RED anyway? :-D

--
JRT


By James Richard Tyrer at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Carlos, dear, without an account you can't get to that page at all.


By Roberto Alsina at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

Excuse me, but you appear to be totally ignorant on this matter.


By ac at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

http://rpmfind.net//linux/RPM/rawhide/1.0/i386/RedHat/RPMS/kdelibs-3.0.3...
is my unofficial source, until i get it installed here.

Granted this is 10 days old, but unless rpmfind is generateing bad rpm information what they are shipping is far from KDE source.

GPL says they can do what they want, but at least they should have the repect to call it a fork.

-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

kdelibs is not under the GPL, kdelibs is under the LGPL.

The LGPL says in section 6 that you can "distribute [a program linked to a LGPL library] ...
If the work during execution displays copyright notices, you must include the
copyright notice for the Library among them"

The "About KDE" dialog is the copyright notice provided by kdelibs.

Removing it from kdelibs with the purpose of it not being displayed by the programs
is probably a violation of the LGPL, not to mention a pretty stupid thing to do, which will surely cause, if true, a violent backlash against Red Hat. I would be surprised if even
GNOME supported such a thing.

In any case, I don't think removing copyright notices is legal EVER, and that is what
that patch would do. It sure ain't ethical.


By Roberto Alsina at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

'For all of the work they are putting into destroying KDE...'

KDE provides sources, you know that. What distros and packagers do to KDE is their own business. Not a big deal. All desktop-oriented distros (and RedHat is not one of these) have KDE as default desktop.

' Is it time to take a more agressive stance on packageing so we can keep some control how KDE looks?'

I am afraid you can not do that (GPL).

How KDE looks like? Good question :) Take a look at the screenshots on kde-look.org or even on kde.org and you will see that KDE has thousands of different looks (though mostly MacOSX-Aqua-like and WinXP-like). You can download gnome icon sets from kde-look.org (BTW, they are excellent) and many of gnome's (sawfish) window decorations ported to IceWM for KDE. We also used to have a gtk-theme importer for KDE 2xx.


By antialias at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

I guess we can all repeat the mantra of "KDE only provides source..." over and over and hope for the best. Unfortunately on this side of the pond RH == Linux. I have only seen a handfull of companies that dont think otherwise. Lucky IBM is nice enough to help break this idea, but companies like Sun and HP, seem to ignore SuSE (a damn fine desktop linux dist, and server for that matter) when they look at linux on the desktop.

What I am talking about is a more reliable method of getting packages made. SuSE and MDK dont seem to have a problem with this (outside of a few bumps and scrapes because users upgrade from stock configs over time), so why cant RH seem to get it right? I mean we have debian package package information in CVS, why cant we have maintained spec files?

Just some thoughts of latenight frustration as I get Solaris to compile KOffice... Ironic how KDE 3.1 seems to run better on Solaris than my Gnome CD that I got right from Sun... poor sods took it on that one...

-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Wow, you got KDE3 to work on Solaris? Looking at the build requirements, it looks like you'd have to upgrade the entire build environment just to get it to build (and this was Solaris 9 I was looking at!).

Hey, question, does KDM work (XDMCP included)? With the KDE 2.2.2 they shipped with Solaris 9 I can't get XDMCP to work with KDM.


By David Walser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Yes a kind company was nice enough to donate some solaris HW and CPU cycles.

I used stock Solaris 8.0 with gcc 2.95 off of the opensource CD. I added the SSL packages and a small patch to get /dev/urandom to work. The only part I have not had much luck with is the Motif part so NS plugins dont work.

If I can have a spare second here I wanted to get Beta1 snapshot packages out, but the way its looking here I may not get packages out until Beta2 because I am still cleaning up stuff like KSysguard.

KDM also works, but you have to "tickle" it a little. We are getting close to fixing that too. I have patches to make dtlogin show KDE or to use KDM, whatever is more stable Ill put in CVS.

Stay tuned.

BTW the most effective methods for getting HW and OS support for KDE on your pet platform is to either do it your self or donate: cpu cycles, beer, hardware or software ;)

Cheers
-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Hi, Ian, glad the Ultra is working well for you. I'm doing some more with the Grid Engine as I get the time, so pretty soon I may be able to let you do some network cluster compiling! We're up to 31 workstations now, so that should result in some speedy 'make' times...

We temporarily halted our compiling of 3.0.2 since 3.0.3 was released. We'd like to do 3.0.3 with GCC 3.2, 64-bit.

Len


By Len Laughridge at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

OK, here's hoping I don't get flamed to a crisp here:

There is quite a lot of negative reactions about the UI changes to KDE here. Believe me, there's quite a bit of it from Gnome people as well. Red Hat has done the same thing to Gnome as it has to KDE, i.e. replaced the default look'n'feel, menu system and so on with their own designs. If you're worried that KDE now looks like Gnome, rest assured that it doesn't. Indeed, the most common complaint among Gnomers is that it makes Gnome look far too much like KDE. :)

As much as we dislike these changes (and yes, I'm one of those that aren't too happy with it), they are making a point, and an important one. They want to deliver a desktop to their customers that feel integrated. That is pretty important to them, and to the majority of their aimed-for user base (corporate desktops). Thus the common theme and common menu structure (another peeve from the Gnome camp). As other posters here has pointed out, most users do not care, and do not _want_ to care about arcana like what desktop environmnet an app belongs to. This of course makes you - and us - pretty uncomfortable.

Another policy they are enforcing with RH8 is that there should be only one default app for every function. That is not to say there can not be several overlapping apps, just that there should be one default, and one only. For KDE, it apparently means Konqueror will play second fiddle to Mozilla; it also means Galeon is in the exact same situation as Konqueror. Having played with the beta, I have repeatedly become surprised that _my_ particular favourite app is not available; it's been easy enough to pull it in from the CD:s, to be sure. Again, I get somewhat frustrated over these choices, and again, I fully understand why this is a good thing for the majority of users.

Fortunately, it seems it is quite easy to tweak the desktop for all of us to quickly regain the eye-candy and apps of our choice. And, yes, it probably _is_ preferable that geeks like us will need to do a bit of tweaking over having a lot of not-very-knowledgeable users attempting to get an integrated desktop (and failing).

Again, I'm not here to troll or anything, I just wanted to point out that Gnome people seem no more happy with the beta than you are, and that there are a lot of good, solid reasons for RH to do what they are.

/Janne


By Janne at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

Hello Janne,

I think you are spot on. IMHO, RedHat is entirely within it's rights to modify KDE to suit there customers needs, as long as they release there modifications in accordance with the appropriate license. I fail to see how this is any different from the numerous companies that modify Free Software applications to meet there particular marketing/customer needs. Lycoris, Lindows, Xandros, Ximian... They all rebrand and modify FS/OS and there associated icons.

I do not particularly care if RedHat patches KDE to remove the 'About KDE' box. AFAIK, the box does not contain any licensing information and therefore it is not against the license. I am only concerned that they release the patch under the LGPL ;-)

Cheers,

Adam


By Adam Treat at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

Well said. In the past I would never consider using Redhat because KDE was not well supported. The new Redhat has them on equal footing and I could easily chnage the look and feel to Keramik. Menus maybe not, but I could still easily setup to use Konqueror, Koffice and any other K app.

I am definately more impressed with Redhat over the zero improvements found in Mandrake.


By Andrew at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

Oh, shut you f***ing hole.
"RedHat makes x crap improvments to GNOME, RedHat kills x KDE features"

I am still plodding along with Red Hat 7. In a preview Kde 2 rpm (1.93) they removed Kpanel!. Boy am I pissed (even though it's two years old).
I'll rather use Mandrake (but my cd's keep on getting freakin' stuffed)


By Mathew McBride at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

And the panel is alive in kicking in RedHat 7.2 final.
What's the big fuss about a packaging bug in a *preview* version?


By Stof at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

> RedHat kills x KDE features

"About KDE" is a feature?


By ac at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

Well, Red Hat did mark it a bug, didn't they? :-)


By Ronald Trip at Wed, 2002/08/28 - 5:00am

For crying out loud its open source. They can change, remove, add, or do anything they want to pretty much... Do I think it's right to remove developer info? no I don't, but they are free to do whatever they please. Isn't no different from what Mandrake was doing awhile back. Change some code here and there and voila... RedHat is Mandrake... did you see redhat references all over the Mandrake distro? Didn't think so... If they are that concerned about what is added and removed, then close the source to the public. If not then stop the bitchin...


By Blah at Mon, 2002/10/14 - 5:00am

It is not horrible. It is sensible.

Why should KDE and Gnome not both have an identical default look? From the user perspective it would only make sense if Gnome and KDE apps behaved the same.

And obviously neither KDE nor GNOME would ever give up their default look themselves. Therefore only a third party (like Redhat) could do it. It was discussed on gnome-kde meetings before though, IIRC.
Maybe we could even use the look they use (together with GNOME) and call it the freedesktop standard?

Futhermore it is sensible to let KDE mimic GNOME, because GNOME is simpler and has less advanced features. Gnome could never mimic KDE with keramik.

If KDE were not just adapted but crippled, users would complain, so Redhat would be stupider than I think they are to do it. You will still be able to use e.g. keramik and so on, I think.

I wouldn't believe rumours about ripping out KDE "About" menu entries until I hear them from a reliable source.


By Moritz Moeller-... at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

What is the point of KDE if the KDE desktop is going to look like the GNOME desktop, not be installed by default, and have no distinguishing features? You are defending this??


By ac at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Integration is one thing, editing into oblivian is another.

I can see makeing gnome apps look like kde apps when you are in kde or vis versa, but to completely remove the look and feel is something different. If i want to use KDE its because I like KDE, and wish to use KDE, then again I am strange...

-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

The point is that users don't care one bit about GTK or QT or Gnome or KDE as long as the apps cooperate nicely. If they look the same -- GREAT.

So I can see the reasoning behind changing the "look" of kde applications to become gnomish. I can not see any sense in offering a reduced, minimalist version of the KDE as a desktop option. KDE users will not accept this anyways. Those who use Gnome will never see it.

Best reaction: Tell any Redhat user coming to KDE for support to get a real KDE.

If I worked at Mandrake or SuSE, I would look forward to the next Redhat release :-)


By Moritz Moeller-... at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

"If I worked at Mandrake or SuSE, I would look forward to the next Redhat release :-)"

I wouldn't, because outside of zealot-websites, there is some real excitement about the betas, as they really kick ass as a desktop operating system (that's what I heard). Also this seems to become their best KDE integration ever. :)
You (KDE devs and fans) really should calm down a little bit. RedHat does a lot of changes to KDE but not half as much changes as they do to GNOME. They aren't doing this to cripple anything but for the better of the user.
And of course all the fancy Keramik, Crystal, etc stuff will still be included so they are just a click away (or ten, depends on kcontrols efficiency ;)). And no functionality will be ripped (silly idea).


By Spark at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

' I wouldn't believe rumours about ripping out KDE "About" menu entries until I hear them from a reliable source.'

Well according to the source (quite a reliable source) they went as far as to remove the std action.

--- kdelibs-3.0.2.me/kdeui/khelpmenu.cpp.aboutkde 2002-06-02 18:51:09.0000
+++ kdelibs-3.0.2.me/kdeui/khelpmenu.cpp 2002-08-02 12:44:08.000000000 +0
@@ -88,7 +88,9 @@
KStdAction::whatsThis(this, SLOT(contextHelpActivated()), actions);
KStdAction::reportBug(this, SLOT(reportBug()), actions);
KStdAction::aboutApp(this, SLOT(aboutApplication()), actions);
- KStdAction::aboutKDE(this, SLOT(aboutKDE()), actions);
+#if 0
+ KStdAction::aboutKDE(this, SLOT(aboutKDE()), actions);
+#endif
}
}

The about app is still there at least, but KDEs information is gone... Why? What does this serve?

-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Well I guess it is a preparation to switch from GTK based Gnome to KDE without losing face :-)

Redhat will use KDE and tell their users it is really GNOME-2.2!!! After all, they want a piece of desktop linux! To make this work, the copyright and credits have to go! ;-)


By Moritz Moeller-... at Fri, 2002/08/23 - 5:00am

Haha. ;) No seriously I think they want to remove it as it won't help the user. Think about it, as we already said quite a lot of times, new users don't care about KDE and GNOME, they just want it to work. So they install GNOME, use KMail and go to the help menu, now there is a "About KDE" box. Hmm. They might click it and maybe they think they are running KDE (which they aren't). However, why isn't it enough to just place the "About application" in the help menu like everyone else does too (consistency could be another rational for this action)?
I hope though that the about KDE box can be accessed from another place (in GNOME you get it by right clicking on the panel). If not, this could indeed be a problem (but I'm sure that RedHat would be more than willing to solve it if someone tells them). In the worst case it could be placed somewhere in the KDE menu.


By Spark at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

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