JUL
12
2008

11 Myths about KDE

As a response to recent negativity on the Internet, we've been working with Groklaw to get a story running detailing facts about questions such as "Releasing KDE 4.0 was a mistake", "I am forced to use the kickoff menu", "The whole KDE4 desktop interface is radically new". among others. Thanks go out to Pamela Jones for giving the KDE community a chance to rectify certain points that have recently been said in public. This way, we hope to make it easier for journalists to put KDE's direction, recent decisions and put simple myths into the right light.

Comments

It's actually not a hundred percent accurate to have only my name up there, since it really was teamwork. Jeff, Thiago, Jos, Wade and Aaron have all helped a lot with patiently explaining all those things.


By Sebastian Kügler at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

Releasing KDE 4 was a mistake. Releasing Vista was a mistake. Iphone was a mistake. The world is flat. On and on. No matter what you do there will always be people who moan and bitch, it is their nature.

Some people don't like KDE 4 and have stuck with 3.5, some have moved to gnome. Some didn't like gnome when compared to kde 4 and moved to it. Personally, I think KDE 4 is revolutionary. Change takes time to adapt.

The problem is also, sometimes, well, I think more than often, a lot of the negativity about KDE 4 is not from KDE 4 users, but comes from users of other desktops. Really, sometimes you need to wear gumboots when walking through the linux community because it is so fractured. I'm tired of hearing people come into other forums and put down distro's so they can say their distro is better.

In the article, number 9, the kde team does not listen to their users, wow. I've had problems with KDE 4 when it was in alpha, and I am more than impressed with the answers Aaron gave, and constantly gives, even when people ignore what he is saying and keep asking. And impressed with other KDE developers who constantly answer questions. Thanks guys.

Ok, now for one my complaint about KDE 4. Where to from here, it seems so great, I can't even begin to imagine what a KDE 5 would look like

So in closing, Aaron, and everyone else who is responsible for this awfully amazing release, thank you.


By R. J. at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

> I think KDE 4 is revolutionary

What is really revolutionary with KDE4? Desktop applets on a desktop PC with to much pixels/border around them?
KDE4 looks and will be really cool on a small device like a N810. But desktop applets system calls like dbus isn't revolutionary.

Give KDE3 users the new features (WebKit Engine, new features of KMail like tags) from KDE4 and they don't switch to KDE4.

System wide tagging with Nepomuk/Strigi isn't really useful on a desktop PC because I know many user saving files on a network drive. Then you lost the tagging informations. On small device I think tagging is useful again.

But we want to use a desktop for desktop PCs / Laptops and this will be reason why people stay with KDE3


By Anonymous at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

there might be some error in your reasoning. I made the switch from the KDE3 series to 4.0.something some time ago. Alas, I couldnt move the icons on the panel and Nepomuk will also find use in later versions. The thing that kept me using 4.0.x inspite of this being a dev release, is:

- the great shape that the edu-applications come with. They are great in KDE3, yes, they have been polished a lot. The parley-plasmoid is really useful (which may have been introduced in the 4.1 dev versions)

- the note-plasmoids. whenever there's something i need to pin down instantly, the plasmoid is there for me. no launching another app, always reminding me when i look at my wallpaper.

- since 4.1 there s folderview. And, that, sirs and siras who wrote that, rocks epicly. It s not only displaying the any folders contence, I can even drag and drop stuff from other windows like konq, dolphin into that folder. No need to open or split a window in case of wanting to copy a file, folderview is there for me. How awesome is that?

- the ability to move plasmoids from the desktop to panel, the beauty of svg, oh and speaking of beauty:

- the look of kde4, in which plasma plays a big part on my desktop, got me hooked. it s simly beautiful.

So basicly, it looks like I switched to the 4th series of KDE because of plasma, in it s infants it offers to me more already than the previous version of KDE, which may not be the case to you, because you *absolutely* need a feature which just has not yet been implented.

And speaking of plasma, am I the only one who thinks that it s amazingly fast at start up? The Desktop loads and *boom* all plasmoids are there, fully useable, while the rest of the program-family is doing a nice job keeping my hd busy. awesome!

So, yeah, people switched to use KDE 4, people find it useful, and as more and more people find it superior to prior versions and it continues to fit their needs, more and more people will switch.

One last thing: a huge big-up & thanks for everyone making the development of this project continue to rock!

I rest my case.


By elveo at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

"Give KDE3 users the new features (WebKit Engine, new features of KMail like tags) from KDE4 and they don't switch to KDE4."

That's what you got with KDE 4, so what are you asking for? If you don't want or like Nepomuk then simple turn it off. I can't understand what you are complaining about.
It's like saying: "give me an old car with the best Farari engine out there". Why can't people satisfy?


By Bobby at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

"(...) because I know many user saving files on a network drive."

I know a lot more saving files in their local hard drive. I win. :)


By suy at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

I think, you're absolutely right.

"...a lot of the negativity about KDE 4 is not from KDE 4 users.."
Well, all the "real" KDE-users I've talked with, are rather pleased with KDE. Many of them already love it. Everybody understands, that it is work in progress.

I was wondering myself, who are all those people complaining.

Personly, I can't wait for Nepomuk, which is an amazing thing for desktop-users. (Maybe some people are too narrowminded to see its usefullness now. I'm sure, they will change their mind).


By markus at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

People who don't like KDE 4 aren't likely to be KDE 4 users. Where do you think they got their complaints from?

I try KDE 4 out regularly. I'd actually like to be wrong on this issue. I'd like to see a great KDE 4 desktop.

Unfortunately I haven't.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

I'm using KDE since 1.xx, so more than 13 years, if I'm not mistaken. And I don't like KDE 4.0.x, KDE 4.1 is better, but still far away from my standards. Sorry guys, but KDE 4.x needs a lot more than some fading away and some nice smoothing. That's the functionality. When I need to add an Icon, and lost about 10miniutes, just to be able to move the icon, not to click on it, then I lost my temper, not to mention different backgrounds on different desktops? Is so hard to do it? Yes, because design doesn't allow, switching desktop is not real, it's just a screen refresh. Revolutionary, it must be. Sorry on sarcasm, but I am really disappointed in KDE 4.x. Thus I switched to gnome, because Fedora doesn't ship KDE 3.5.9 any more.


By doc_ds at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

>not to mention different backgrounds on different desktops? Is so hard to do it?

No it's not hard, but it takes time and no one has gotten around to do it yet. One reason may be that people has been busy doing things rated as more important and perhaps even harder to do.

>Thus I switched to gnome, because Fedora doesn't ship KDE 3.5.9 any more

Well that's entirely a Fedora issue, perhaps you could be better of switching to a different distribution more targeted towards users like you?

Besides Gnome don't do different backgrounds on different desktops either :-)


By Morty at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

I believe the Fedora 9 installer has a KDE 4 default, but I'd wager KDE 3.5.9 packages still exist.


By T. J. Brumfield at Mon, 2008/07/14 - 5:00am

Yes it has only one desktop backgrounds, but functionality of gnome is stable. No Fedora9 does ship kdepim 3.5.9 and kdevelop, and some others, which are not available in KDE 4.x branch. I could, though, change the distro, but I'll still use 3.5.9 :).

At my university we learned that wasting time on the harder thing first is always mistake. Takes the energy off, and at the end you cannot do easy part also. Therefore I did always easier part on the exams the first. Than I get effect that I did something and I give the full strength to the harder tasks. Leaving things on the half against more important is actually clear mistake of the leadership, not programmers, and gives a feel of unfinished, which is for any less experience user disaster.

As I said before, I am really hard user of KDE, but I don't like KDE 4.0.x and 4.1 is not so improved as it should be.


By doc_ds at Mon, 2008/07/14 - 5:00am

Doing the easy part first is not always a good option, even on exams. Even if it's easy it may take time, and that may be valuable time better spent on the hard parts. And often the situation is that the hard parts are more worth than the easy, spending time solving the 1/10th problem rather than the 9/10 one does not make sense if you have limited time. And sometimes you even have to solve the hard one first to be able to do the easy one.

And when you pool your resources is actually great leadership and project management(especially in FOSS) to leave the less important and simple cases, and let the highly skilled developers first concentrate on the important and hard problems. The developers can address the less important cases later, when the time permits. Or if you are lucky a "less" skilled developer comes along and fixes the issues(In a company it may be the new guy, in FOSS it may be you or me).


By Morty at Mon, 2008/07/14 - 5:00am

Actually, you mentioned here, there is a general rule in software 1/10 = 9/10 in time, so at the end it cost you the same, even more in some cases, and you benefit from the functionality the most. So the accent at the HMI is always functionality, believe me, I've clients which complains about color of the shades sometimes. No one benefit hard work behind, it actually doesn't matter. If you have a sausage like code which do everything and super portable code which do, almost, everything, but a crash there, crash here, and so on. The costumer always chose stability over portability. The BG has that in his head, thus Windows has the best HMI, no kidding, and it is portable backwards, yeah it is C-API still, but money is there. On the other hand Linux has the best stability as OS, but sentence like you need to remove your .kde folder before install the new one is a bit out of the league. KDE has no even user backup policy. As I said, when my wife tried the KDE 4.1 she said: "The very nice splash screen, amazing, but I don't understand anything afterwards". Those small thing cost the same time as 9/10 and giving to the less experience onces is a big mistake. Two time alt+F2 in a row and yuppie! A d-bus error, that nerves, but seriously. At the end in my mother tongue there is a sentence: "A bad one can destroy the work of the three good ones".


By doc_ds at Tue, 2008/07/15 - 5:00am

> but sentence like you need to remove your .kde folder before install the new one is a bit out of the league

Nobody should ever suggest that!

This kind of "solution" is a left over from the mindset of proprietary software support, where each problem can supposedly be "solved" by reinstalling some component.

In my talks about doing community based Free Software user support, I always remind the audience not to do things like this, but rather to either narrow down the problem until one can find a real solution or to leave it to someone else in the support community.

However, since a lot of us have been exposed to the "problem -> reinstall" mindset for quite some time, mistakes like that can happen. If anyone sees it copming up somewhere, I recommend to remind both involved parties (the one asking for help and the one giving a less the ideal suggestion) that they are looking on a last resort kind of measure.


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2008/07/15 - 5:00am

I've only been using KDE since 3.2, but here's my view.

KDE 3.5.9 meets my needs almost perfectly as it is, but I'm open to new things.

KDE 4 has potential and I'll switch once the feature set catches up. Until then, using KDE 4 applications inside a KDE 3.5.9 desktop provides some of the benefits. (What I'm really looking forward to is for KWin 4.x to be stable enough for me to use it comfortably. Then I can port the Compiz effects which are more than just eye candy)

I wouldn't use GNOME if you paid me. Not only is the setup at odds with how I work (among other things, Nautilus lacks support for tabs, GnomeVFS is a piece of junk, and there's no acceptable KParts equivalent) but the philosophy (that the developers should produce an efficient UI that the users can get used to) is pretty much the easiest way anyone can get on my bad side. (I know how I want my computer to work. It WILL adapt to me, not me to it)

Oh, and gnome-panel and Nautilus don't seem to get along very well with dual-monitor setups.


By Stephan Sokolow at Mon, 2008/07/14 - 5:00am

Releasing KDE4 was amazing.... because it will develop to be more robust and better desktop every month, thanks for ALL developers about that!

What is totally mistake, is to believe that those people who complain about KDE4, has not RTFA .

I know that KDE4 is not currently on *great* shape, but it will come. I did know that 4.0.x is for developers so I didn't even suggest it for my friends or I didn't use it for daily purpose. I tested it and reported bugs etc, doing that what I CAN do, to help community.

I dont complain about things what I cant fix, I can only suggest and inform those things for people, who know how to code and who are solving problems to do what we, users want!

I can only thank those efforts what they do, not complain. I can say if somekind idea does not sound good, but I always need to keep in my mind that I can be wrong because I dont understand the big picture what they are working.

So, if now on next 2 years KDE4 does not develop to status where it isn't in good shape (does not crash (what does not mean that it would crash now!), does not have options etc), then I can start complaining if KDE devels do not listen their "audience" and start acting more like GNOME devs, telling users WHAT is best etc.

I hope that there is no more "mistakes" by users to complain about KDE4, because it is not ready. I dont complain about windows Vista, even that I would suspect that world biggest software company would make better version of Windows NT, without hassle, but it happens on bigger circles too!


By Fri13 at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

I agree. KDE 3.X was nice. Some great ideas went into KDE4 like Plasma and the new sound interface. However, KDE4 seems to fall short of the functionality and capabilities of KDE3. The out of the box experience of KDE4 scares the hell out of hew users. Also, releasing KDE4 and telling users that the kde teams recommends waiting for 4.1 or 4.2 does not make sense. I for one wanted 4.0 to be usable and ready for prime time. 4.0 was in my opinion alpha code and should have been labeled that way.

Now after all is said, I do think KDE4 will be a great OS. I just don't see that happening until 4.2.

Craig


By Craig at Mon, 2008/07/14 - 5:00am

I think what the complaints are mostly about are peoples own self revulsion towards anything that even rings of ¨pure¨ function. I am using KDE4 for the unvaunted job of being my GUI for the LAMP I just made, and quite frankly, it is one of the simplisticlly most efficient and subtley beautiful gui´ś I´ve had the pleasure of working with. If people want more bloatware that spends 90% of it´s processes performing what I like to label Arnold Horschack processing going ¨oooh, oooh, Mista Clayton!¨ trying to wow me with complete and total waste to make me look at it, go back to Vista............the Revolution marches on, like Juggernaut, and anything that gets in it´s path will merely get assimilated, chewed on for its best parts, then relegated to the dustbin. For the most part, my only peeve with K4 is that if I type too fast for it sometimes, it reverts to periodically throw in some little european fonting, nothing worth getting all fired up about. Keep up the good work ladies and gentlemen, keep it simple, and efficient.....test test test


By Clayton at Thu, 2008/07/17 - 5:00am

-- I love the icon/forum topic.

Something definitely went wrong with KDE4, whether it is a PR, management or code issue or a combination of these.

Sad to see these articles are necessary.


By KDE User at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

saying KDE4 is a mistake is like calling calling firefox 3 a mistake or even at a more rudimentary level calling "new years" a mistake...

I don't know how people could be so stupid, so daft and ignorant and yet still be able to use linux (I guess it means the ubuntu plan is working!)

KDE is glossy, sexy and foolproof. it's as pretty as gnome only not a complete waste of time and system resources and much more utilitarian...

KDE4 (and the innovative corporate opensource apps being developed in our year of industrialized linux progression) makes linux really for the first time a completely viable operating system (unlike microsoft). capable and universal (unlike windows) -sleek and smooth like os x, universal, free, and opensource.

KDE is the reason why countries, corporations and people across the globe will switch to linux, many of them trying it for the first time, and most won't go back...

certainly kde3 always reminded me of win98 second edition crossed with functionality, but its significantly improved, so why can't we all move on?

I don't understand people who dont LOVE kde4. are they just old fashioned? I mean that doesn't make sense!

someone please explain what my kde4 is doing that others can't, because all I see is a fully functional interface with a really enjoyable desktop experience, and I'm thankful for every bit processed in front of my eyes :)


By andreas nicholas at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

There is much more to a desktop than looks.

I don't think the KDE team would call KDE 4 foolproof.

You compare KDE3 to Win98 SE, except most people I show my KDE 3 desktop (with Compiz) are blown away, and say it is nicer than Vista. I've converted a few of my die-hard Microsoft coworkers.

KDE is the reason why countries, corporations and people across the globe will switch to linux, many of them trying it for the first time, and most won't go back...
What do you mean by KDE here? If you read up on feedback from Fedora and openSUSE, almost everyone using KDE 4 for the first time is outraged. I think putting KDE 4.0.4 (what shipped with F9 and oS11) in front of a new user will put people off KDE. It is quite possible that KDE 4.1 or 4.2 might make much better impressions, but I certainly wouldn't recommend KDE 4.0.x to new users.

I don't understand people who dont LOVE kde4. are they just old fashioned? I mean that doesn't make sense!
The day KDE 4 provides me with all the flexibility of KDE 3 and allows me to have my desktop exactly how I want it, I might use it everyday. I do try it out regularly. I've been trying out the 4.1 betas from openSUSE and is getting closer, but there are several things about KDE 4 that really irk me.

I'm glad we have a classic menu, because Kickoff is horribly inefficient, yet the classic menu looks old. I believe it is possible to have a useful menu that actually helps you find things quickly without getting in the way. I look forward to trying out Lancelot and Raptor, but KDE 4 doesn't currently present me with a decent menu option.

I think having an applet window on my desktop for icons just looks bad. People keep insisting that makes me stupid, and clearly I don't understand the purpose of folderview. Great, I can have different directories there. Except that is no real advantage. I can just as easily open a file manager to see a different directory, except the file manager is more powerful. The smart searches and filtering is nice, but I'm more interested in having that kind of power in my file manager. What I really want to see is icons done well. I would have assumed this would have been part of the criteria for a KDE 4.0 release. Reinventing the desktop from 4.0 to 4.1 also concerns me that perhaps there wasn't, or isn't a proper plan for the Plasma desktop.

It should be noted that many things like Nepomuk, Solid, Sonnet, SVG, Phonon, Akondi, etc. I really dig. I think there are aspects of KDE 4 that are huge improvements over KDE 3. I just really don't like the desktop.

ZUI may prove useful to me in the future, but I'm the sort that doesn't even bother with multiple desktops currently. I like dual-head monitors, but everything is visible. But currently, Plasma offers me no real incentive or advantages over the KDE 3 desktop. There may yet be some innovation in desktop usage I personally find exciting, but I've yet to see it.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

> I think having an applet window on my desktop for icons just looks bad. People keep insisting that makes me stupid, and clearly I don't understand the purpose of folderview.

I'd rather say you did miss all of the several demonstrations which show that the folderview applet can have a couple of visualizations, where one of them is a fullscreen, no decoration, container area.
Once applet background drawing is made plugin-based for KDE 4.2, this variant of visualization will be indistinguishable from what some people refer to as "icon on desktop".

> Great, I can have different directories there. Except that is no real advantage.

You probably wanted to write "Except I see no real advantage", because others, including myself find this to be an advantage.
I have several groups of icons on the desktop, where each group's icons are related, e.g. belong to the same project.

In a single-directory-only-view scenario I either have to have copies or need to create links to the real files, which means copying a file into a project folder needs at least one additional step. Even copying to the desktop still requires moving it to the group it belongs to.

In a multi-directory-view scenario I copy/save/create files in the folder the files should be in and they automatically get displayed and grouped correctly.

> I can just as easily open a file manager to see a different directory, except the file manager is more powerful.

You are currently most likely not using your desktop as a quick access to files, otherwise you would be aware of the differences between it and using file manager windows.
File manager windows have the disadvantage of not being accessible through a single short cut, create an entry in the taskbar, are part of ALT-Tab window switching, need to be switched to "on-all-desktops" manually and can accidentally be closed.

I guess this and the point before are hard to understand for people who are just using the desktop as a huge quicklauncher area, without any data files.


By Kevin Krammer at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

> ...where one of them is a fullscreen, no decoration, container area.

That also looks ugly. I've said multiple times, that if in 4.2, it operates like a proper desktop with theming, then I'll be happy. I was just concerned that Aaron had been saying for months he wanted to completely get rid of ~/Desktop because he hated the concept. I kept asking questions on the subject, and never really got direct answers. Instead I was repeatedly attacked.

I just don't understand implementing the feature before it is ready for primetime. In fact, I hope that someone implements wallpaper and theming into folderview for 4.1.1 rather than making people wait for 4.2

> You probably wanted to write "Except I see no real advantage"

You are correct.

> I have several groups of icons on the desktop, where each group's icons are related, e.g. belong to the same project.

I do too. They are called folders.

As for opening other folders, I really prefer a fully functional file manager than some half-expression of that. I also want to be able to have that folder as a window so that it operates like my other windows.

I do put all my projects on my desktop. I quickly reach my desktop in a shortcut, and I like that. But when I'm operating with multiple folders, I like them in windows. For one, I can drag from one to the other.

In a folderview world, I'm only displaying one folder at a time. I select the files, and I can cut them, display another folder and then paste them. A filer manager gives me split views, tree views, or multiple windows. I have more flexibility.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

> That also looks ugly.

So it is currently ugly because it can't draw a wallpaper yet.
IMHO the main point is though, that it is able to perform the restricted role just as well, without needing a different software or whole software stack change.

Some other people commenting on folderview seem not to get that the same applet can do windowed and fullscreen mode, despite several well known programs like video players doing exactly the same.

Be assured that drawing an image is trivial enough to be implementable in the 4.2 timeframe :)

> I was just concerned that Aaron had been saying for months he wanted to completely get rid of ~/Desktop because he hated the concept

Well, stating the obvious first, everyone has their own opinion and the nice thing about such a modular system like Plasma is that everyone can use the applets and containers they prefer. Moreover, one of Plasma's explicit goals is to lower the barrier of entry, e.g. allowing people with web skills (HTML, CSS, ECMAScript) to create and contribute applets.

Regarding the "hating the concept of ~/Desktop" I can can only guess but I think that the indent was to express the disappointment with the fixed single use case rather than the general "quick access pane" concept.

> I do too. They are called folders.

Ah, but this is not the same thing for everyone of us. I do have folders on my desktop as well, but I do use them for access to some project's root, while the files-on-desktop are often needed project contents.

Basically a partly inverted hierachy, having some important files on the very same level (access wise) as the project's top level directory.
For me it is a matter of not having to look for the imporant files, i.e. as opposed to following a nested directory tree from its relative root to the respective target folder.

> For one, I can drag from one to the other.

Hmm, I think it is possible to drag from/to another folderview and from/to a window.

> In a folderview world, I'm only displaying one folder at a time

Well, of course if you only have one fullscreen folderview, you are only displaying one folder at a time. Using windowed folderviews obviously allows you to display more than one folder at a time, doesn't it?

> A filer manager gives me split views, tree views, or multiple windows. I have more flexibility.

True, this is what file managers are for. Folderviews do not replace file managers, their presence in a session does not block starting or using any file manager. They are totally independent views of the file system.


By Kevin Krammer at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

>Be assured that drawing an image is trivial enough to be implementable in the 4.2 timeframe :)

Exactly, and if someone are motivated it can even be done in time of 4.1.

Take the folderview code, implement the wallpaper loading(copy it from the part of Plasma drawing it today). Package it up as a 3rd party Plasmoid and release it on www.kde-apps.org.

Stuff like this is what Plasma is designed for.


By Morty at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

"I can can only guess but I think that the indent was to express the disappointment with the fixed single use case rather than the general "quick access pane" concept."

correct.

having a folder on disk define the layout of your desktop is a really poor concept.

we could do much better, and now we are.


By Aaron Seigo at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

Some of us don't like applets on our desktops. The only way I'd use folderview likely is it was my desktop containment with a wallpaper, which would stop me from having multiple folderview applets up.

Regardless, having an applet that is less powerful than a file manager, and having it operate as an applet as opposed to a window is a lose-lose for me.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

Why then, not use a theme like glassified to make the folderview as transparent as possible and then expand it to fit your whole desktop?

Seeing as you're saying you hate to have applets on your desktop it means that folderview is the only one you're going to have

then you lock it so the handle does not show and... TADA... entire desktop

It is certainly a fairly decent workaround for you until 4.2, right?


By txf at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

It sounds like a mostly usable solution. I likely won't be using KDE 4 much before 4.2 either way, or until I start seeing more configuration options.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

And frankly, no one cares if you're using KDE 4 or not.


By Juan Miguel at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

That right there is trolling.

It is a statement that has no value other than trying to incite an argument.

Thanks for your contribution.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

Good joke! Maybe you should start actually *thinking* about the value of your own posts...


By Stefan at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

One post lists specific issues and features. It includes details and is polite.

The other contains nothing but a personal slander.

Which one did you take umbrage with?

People need to drop their bias and read what is written. Just because I don't like KDE 4, that doesn't make me a villain, nor is it suddenly acceptable to take personal shots at me.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

"Just because I don't like KDE 4, that doesn't make me a villain, nor is it suddenly acceptable to take personal shots at me."

that's correct.

and in turn i hope is that you read what is written in reply to you and that you treat others and their work with a modicum of respect.

it's a give and take world.


By Aaron Seigo at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

"The only way I'd use folderview likely is it was my desktop containment with a wallpaper, which would stop me from having multiple folderview applets up."

no, it wouldn't.

you can have multiple folderview Activities (all fullscren) and switch between them; you can *also* put folderview widgets on top of your full screen folderview Activity.

"having an applet that is less powerful than a file manager,"

compare it to kdesktop and what kdesktop could do.

"having it operate as an applet as opposed to a window is a lose-lose for me"

it's not meant to replace konqueror or dolphin; the pasma desktop replaces kdesktop+kicker.


By Aaron Seigo at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

The moment folderview is my desktop containment with a wallpaper, I'll be happy. I'm not upset that folderview exists or that it provides new features. I just don't like the look of the applet on my desktop.

Frankly, the moment it is the desktop with a wallpaper, most people won't notice or understand the difference.


By T. J. Brumfield at Mon, 2008/07/14 - 5:00am

the simple fact is that KDE4 is scary to all the people like me who moved from gnome 1.4 to KDE when gnome 2 came about because:
gnome2 = gnome1.4 - everything useful
Many people like me have come to love KDE (and in particular the konqueror
file manager) - its versatility and the fact that it designed for people with a brain.

Having tried KDE4 myself for a week. I was pretty shocked and appalled at what I saw, ie it looks very much like:
kde4 = kde3.x - anything useful
which is as I said, a very scary turn of events for linux users. Its like we are entering a new dark age.


By chris at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

Good effort...Nice way of saying nothing worthwhile at all...

dark ages...lol


By txf at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

Actually he does have a valid point. It appears that in a bid to win favor with the corporate backing, KDE is being misled along the Gnome path of simplicity which may lose it the audience that loved its freedom. However KDE still outshines Gnome and all other DEs in every aspect. With no other option available to the KDE users, they may yet hang in there in spite of all the complaints.


By Raj at Sun, 2008/07/20 - 5:00am

"Actually he does have a valid point."

No he doesn't; it's just yet another of these bizarre "Feature X from KDE3 didn't make it into 4.0 - it must therefore have been deliberately dropped!" fallacies.

"It appears that in a bid to win favor with the corporate backing, KDE is being misled along the Gnome path of simplicity which may lose it the audience that loved its freedom."

Since KDE 4.1 is adding features over 4.0, and 4.2 will likely do the same, this is completely backwards.


By anon at Sun, 2008/07/20 - 5:00am

as a relative linux newbie, I pretty much prefer KDE over Gnome. However, for some reason KDE does not completely shut down my Vostro 1000 -- KDM seems to hang or crash or ... who knows ???

So I am using a variety of KDE apps under Gnome. Hey after years (decades?) of near- and not-so-near-misses by Microsoft, IBM, Apple, ... I don't get more that annoyed when things don't work perfectly. Take a deep breath, relax, find some way to resolve the problem

Eventually the problem will be solved and I`ll move back to KDE.


By steve at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

Which version of KDE where you using? KDE 3.5.9, 4.0.4, 4.0.5, 4.0.83? That might be helpful.

Which distro where you using?

And did you have to switch to GDM? Did the login screen come up, and you couldn't log into the KDE 4 session, or did you never get a login screen?


By T. J. Brumfield at Mon, 2008/07/14 - 5:00am

It's my first visit to this forum. KDE is what introduced me to Linux and not vice versa!

Something I find very amazing, KDE is not what it is because :
(1)it mocks competitors or steps on them
(2)artificially inflates itself through propaganda
(3)rips off the end-user

C'mon, how can you not love it!? KDE's team ARE the "Nelson Mandela's" of the software industry.

You guys are appreciated


By Heino Deist at Wed, 2008/07/16 - 5:00am

As an observer and KDE admirer I get the impression that the KDE project culture went from hacker culture more and more into a sectarian belief in the project. Ten years ago everyone spoke openly about technology and of course you could point critics to the hic rhodos hic salta, please fix it. Criticism was always seen as a useful contribution that does not do harm. Because hackers care just about your contributions, not about your look, race, religion, etc. They want your honest opinion. No one was offended by criticism of technology. This was changed into a emo-reward social network of believing coders desperately trying to obstruct heresy. Not unlike the self-censorship in the US in terms of patriotism with respect to the Iraq war/democracy project.

What we can clearly see is that development achievements are great but it does not scale well community-wise. In the meantime users don't wait but switch to what works for them. More users, more incredemental development.


By velocifer at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

This has to be the most subtle trolling I've seen in a while. Too bad you spoil it at the end with the "incredemental" thing -- by the way is the typo a lapsus -- which shows clearly enough where you are going.


By reficolev at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

You did play into his hand, not that he was trolling. But you proved his point. Either you suggest everything is perfect all the time, or apparently you're a troll.

Please someone look up the definition of a troll.

"I do not think that word means what you think it means."


By T. J. Brumfield at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

There is a huge difference between constructive criticism, and what a lot of crap that gets posted.

Perhaps if you observe more, you wil notice that KDE technology is still widely openly talked about. However many people don't read what is said, and over and over ask the same questions, and when it is explained to them, they still argue about it. Not only here, but then taking their personal attacks against them to KDE developers blogs.


By R. J. at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

Let me say that there is a bunch of useless, offensive, personal attacks I have seen thrown around. To that regard I welcome moderation here, and I understand people making a stand against personal attacks.

However, the GP does have a point. Criticism can be a valuable contribution.

I often argue that the biggest reason the Star Wars prequels sucked (and say movies like SpiderMan 3 and such) is that when you are so successful, people stop questioning you. There is no editorial process. You end up with an auteur creation that few are willing to question. Quality decreases.

Surrounding yourself with yes-men who will only praise you does not help you in the least.

Make a stand when it comes to personal attacks and useless criticism, but welcome criticism none the less. Don't immediately call all the critics trolls.


By T. J. Brumfield at Sat, 2008/07/12 - 5:00am

> Don't immediately call all the critics trolls.

When were people doing constructive criticism called trolls? (BTW I've read kde-devel and dot comments closely the last few months.) The only thing I remember is that Aaron was explaining the Plasma roadmap until being bashed by trolls (including nasty comparisons etc.) which is when he stopped to communicate (at least to outside the project).

The only incident where I worked together with Aaron (up to now) was when he reviewed some KDiamond code and gave me some hints concerning animation performance. Some of my code was quite idiotic, but he always stayed polite.

I see three troubles:

1. There are not enough people contributing code. I agree that users are important and need to express their opinion, but we won't get anywhere further if only everyone complains that feature X is missing. We need somebody who is a) willing to implement feature X and b) has enough knowledge to actually do it.

Until we get enough developers to give users back their complete feature set, we even need to lend developers from other areas of KDE, for example kdeedu. -- Note that this is kind of a unique situation: Normally, developers stay in their modules because they do what they're interested in. In this case, developers from all around KDE come to kdebase to help Plasma become the greatest desktop in existence. That is a community-building experience.

2. People tend to oversee the potential of Plasma. I see blogs on Planet KDE about Plasma on screensavers, Plasma on smartphones, usage of Plasma of applications. Plasma is capable of inspiring developers to imagine what they never would have imagined without such a great framework. I can't wait to see what the desktop will look like in one or two years.

3. People tend to oversee the hard work being put in Plasma. The problem with building a new desktop is that you're (obviously) building a new program. And building a new program of this size involves making concepts, drawing on whiteboards (Tokamak, anyone?), and so on. I know that I saw the first Plasmoids about one year ago, when Plasma development was already running for about one year, with all the manpower previously put into KDesktop/Kicker (remember that Aaron was the Kicker maintainer?). Yet it needed one year until the first plasmoid could come onto the screen. From that point on, development went faster and faster. This development makes me confident that the Plasma developers can implement the missing features and yet more in the 4.2 timeframe.

On a side note, features are not that easy to implement as they seem. For example, I have been talking to Friedrich Kossebau about the Mac-style menubar plasmoid (which was assigned to him on the 4.1 feature plan). He said that he has some code in Playground but there are technical problems with the window management needed for this. (I do not know exactly what, but it was too hard to solve at the moment even for our KWin guru Lubos Lunak. I do also not know why one can't just copy and paste from the KDE 3 implementation of the Mac-style menu bar, but there must be some reason that makes it so hard.) I know something that certainly doesn't help: poking the involved developers and urging them to solve that problem. Did you ever see a successful company with such an atmosphere between the workers and their bosses?


By Stefan Majewsky at Sun, 2008/07/13 - 5:00am

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