AUG
10
2002

KDE Ships Release Candidate of Integrated Office Suite

The KOffice team yesterday announced the release of KOffice 1.2 rc1. It marks the last test release before
KOffice 1.2, scheduled for early next month, hits the Net.
Highlights since last month's beta2 release include a substantial number
of fixes and stability and performance enhancements, including important
corrections to the KWord and KPresenter WYSIWYG display, It also features new
read-only Konqueror plugins for
each KOffice component, a new WordPerfect export filter for KWord, and
improvements to the KWord RTF import filter. You can view a more detailed
list
of changes
at the KOffice website, head straight to the
download
directory, or read the release announcement below.

 

DATELINE AUGUST 9, 2002
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

KDE Ships Release Candidate of Free Integrated Office Suite


Konqueror Read-Only Embedding, WordPerfect Export Filter and Improved
Stability Highlight KOffice Release Candidate for Linux and Other
UNIXes

August 9, 2002 (The INTERNET).
The KDE Project today announced the
immediate release of
KOffice 1.2rc1, the third
preview release for KOffice 1.2,
scheduled
for final release early next month. KOffice is an integrated office suite for
KDE, the leading desktop for Linux. KOffice utilizes free and open
standards for its document formats, component communication and component
embedding.

This release is a public testing release to resolve any
remaining stability issues prior to the final release next month.
Besides a substantial number of fixes and stability and performance
enhancements since the KOffice beta2 release last month, including
important corrections to the KWord and KPresenter WYSIWYG display,
KOffice 1.2rc1 features new read-only
Konqueror plugins for
each KOffice component, a new WordPerfect export filter for KWord, and
improvements to the KWord RTF import filter.
A more detailed
list
of changes
and notes about
the release
are available at the KOffice
web site.

This release, available in
36
languages, includes
a frame-based, full-featured word processor
(KWord);
a presentation application
(KPresenter);
a spreadsheet application
(KSpread);
a flowchart application
(Kivio);
business quality reporting software
(Kugar);
and two alpha-quality vector-drawing applications
(Kontour and
Karbon14).
Additionally, KOffice includes robust embeddable charts
(KChart)
and formulas
(KFormula)
as well as a built-in thesaurus (KThesaurus)
and numerous import and export
filters.

KOffice 1.2rc1 complements the release of
KDE 3.0.2,
last month. KDE is an international, powerful and easy-to-use
Internet-enabled desktop for Linux and other UNIXes, and together with
KOffice constitutes the only Open Source project to provide a complete
desktop and productivity environment for Linux/UNIX.

KOffice and all its components (including KDE) are available
for free under Open Source licenses from the KDE
http
or ftp mirrors.

Installing KOffice 1.2rc1 Binary Packages

Binary Packages.
Some Linux/UNIX OS vendors have kindly provided binary packages of
KDE 3.0 for some versions of their distribution, and in other cases
community volunteers have done so.
Some of these binary packages are available for free download from KDE's
http or
ftp mirrors.
Additional binary packages, as well as updates to the packages now
available, may become available over the coming weeks.

Please note that the KDE Project makes these packages available from the
KDE web site as a convenience to KDE users. The KDE Project is not
responsible for these packages as they are provided by third
parties - typically, but not always, the distributor of the relevant
distribution - using tools, compilers, library versions and quality
assurance procedures over which KDE exercises no control. If you
cannot find a binary package for your OS, or you are displeased with
the quality of binary packages available for your system, please read
the KDE Binary Package
Policy
and/or contact your OS vendor.

Library Requirements / Options.
The library requirements for a particular binary package vary with the
system on which the package was compiled. Please bear in mind that
some binary packages may require a newer version of Qt and other libraries
than was shipped with the system (e.g., LinuxDistro X.Y
may have shipped with Qt-3.0.0 but the packages below may require
Qt-3.0.3). For general library requirements for KDE, please see the text at
Source Code - Library
Requirements
below.

Package Locations.
At the time of this release, pre-compiled packages are available for:

Please check the servers periodically for pre-compiled packages for other
distributions. More binary packages may become available over the
coming days and weeks.

Compiling KOffice 1.2rc1

Library
Requirements.
KOffice 1.2rc1 requires the following libraries:

  • kdelibs 3.0, though kdelibs 3.0.2 is recommend. Both release can be
    downloaded following the instructions in the respective press releases
    (3.0,
    3.0.2)
    at the KDE website. For more information on these kdelibs releases, please
    see the KDE
    3.0 press release
    .
  • Qt 3.0.3, which is available in source code from Trolltech as
    qt-x11-3.0.3.tar.gz, or later.
    and
  • For reading help pages and other KOffice documentation,
    libxml2 >= 2.4.9 and
    libxslt >= 1.0.7.

Compiler Requirements.
Please note that some components of
KOffice 1.2rc1 (such as the Quattro Pro import filter
and KChart) will not
compile with older versions of gcc/egcs,
such as egcs-1.1.2 or gcc-2.7.2. At a minimum gcc-2.95-* is required.

Source Code/SRPMs.
The complete source code for KOffice 1.2rc1 is available for free download
via one of the KDE
http
or ftp mirrors.
Additionally, source rpms are available for the following distributions:

  • Conectiva 8.0
  • Mandrake Linux 8.x
  • RedHat Linux 7.3
    (unofficial)
  • SuSE Linux 8.0, 7.x

Further Information.
For further instructions on compiling and installing KOffice, please consult
the KOffice installation
instructions
. For
problems with SRPMs, please contact the person listed in the applicable
.spec file.

Corporate KOffice Sponsors

Besides the valuable and excellent efforts by the
KOffice developers
themselves, significant support for KOffice development has been provided by
MandrakeSoft (which sponsors
KOffice developers David
Faure
and Laurent Montel),
theKompany.com (which has
contributed Kivio and Kugar to KOffice), and
Klarälvdalens
Datakonsult AB
(which has contributed KChart to KOffice). In addition,
the members of the KDE League,
as well as individual
sponsors
(donate),
provide significant support for KDE and KOffice. Thanks!

About KOffice/KDE

KOffice is part of the KDE Project.
KDE is an independent project of hundreds of developers, translators,
artists and professionals worldwide collaborating over the Internet
to create and freely distribute a sophisticated, customizable and stable
desktop and office environment employing a flexible, component-based,
network-transparent architecture and offering an outstanding development
platform. KDE provides a stable, mature desktop, a full, component-based
office suite (KOffice), a large
set of networking and administration tools and utilities, and an
efficient, intuitive development environment featuring the excellent IDE
KDevelop. KDE is working proof
that the Open Source "Bazaar-style" software development model can yield
first-rate technologies on par with and superior to even the most complex
commercial software.

Please visit the KDE family of web sites for the
KDE FAQ,
screenshots,
KOffice information and
developer
information
.
Much more information
about KDE is available from KDE's
family of web sites.

Release Coordinator: Thanks to
David Faure for
his excellent services as release coordinator.

Press Release:
Written by Andreas
Pour
from the KDE League, with the
invaluable assistance of numerous gifted volunteers from the KDE Project.

Trademarks Notices.

KDE, K Desktop Environment and KOffice are trademarks of KDE e.V.
Incorporated.

Adobe Illustrator and PostScript are registered trademarks of Adobe Systems

dBASE is a registered trademark of dBASE Inc.

Corel, Quattro Pro and WordPerfect are registered trademarks of Corel
Corporation or Corel Corporation Limited.

Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds.

Trolltech and Qt are trademarks of Trolltech AS.

UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group.

All other trademarks and copyrights referred to in this announcement are
the property of their respective owners.

Press Contacts:

United States:

Andreas Pour
KDE League, Inc.
pour AT kdeleague DOT org
(1) 917 312 3122

Europe (French and English):

David Faure
faure@kde.org
(33) 4 3250 1445

Europe (German and English):

Ralf Nolden
nolden@kde.org
(49) 2421 502758

Europe (English):

Jono Bacon
jono@kde.org

Southeast Asia (English and Indonesian):

Ariya Hidayat
ariya@kde.org
(62) 815 8703177

Comments

Please note that SuSE packages created before 9th August are missing some files for KWord and should be considered broken. Fixed packages are already available on some ftp mirrors but other still carry at the moment of this posting the broken versions.


By Anonymous at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Okay - dumb question - how do I tell which ones I installed?

rpm -qa |grep -i koffice
koffice-devel-1.2rc1-18
koffice-1.2rc1-18

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

Revisions 18+ for i386 and 7+ for ppc are fixed. The broken packages had revisions from 0 to 2 AFAIR.


By Anonymous at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

Seems like libart is missing in the requirements list. If you install a binary package don't forget to download and install the provided libart package. If you compile from source, you can download libart at
libart_lgpl-2.3.8.tar.gz.


By Anonymous at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

gnome.org? - is this cooperation between KDE and gnome for once?


By me at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

libart is hosted in Gnome CVS, dunno you can call it a Gnome project. KDE and Mozilla use it just like any other library.


By Anonymous at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Look for wvWare which is also kde-gnome. But mostly from kde people.


By JC at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

wvware mostly KDE people?
dont let the maintainer Dom Lachowicz hear you say that.


By anon at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

Hehe :)

wvWare 1.0 is and was written by (and is maintained by) people closely associated with the AbiWord project, which I also happen to maintain. Not to mention its libole2 dependency that we helped write as well as the scaled-back Glib that I rewrote.

wvWare 2.0 was a stalled collaboration between the KOffice folks and myself, of which the KDE folks did most of the work thus far. Please note that 'thus far' in this case means "no where near functional." Werner, David Faure and a few Gnomies (myself included) chatted on IRC this weekend. Shaheed Hacque couldn't attend, unfortunately. Anyway, we talked about reviving the project, future plans, licensing, APIs, dependencies/requirements (such as libole2's replacement, libgsf - maintainer and lead author/architect Jody Goldberg[gnumeric], coauthored by me), division of labor, etc... and things seemed to go well. I'm only hoping that this turns out better than things did last summer.

I am very much wvWare 1.0's current author and maintainer (mad props go to Caolan McNamara, though, for all of his hard work). wvWare 2.0 is very much incomplete and in a state flux, though it will be a teriffic product when it is finished. We hope to make it as good as, if not better than, wvWare 1.0 in a short amount of time.

Cheers,
Dom


By Dom Lachowicz at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

Oops, sorry :-)


By JC at Tue, 2002/08/13 - 5:00am

How do I obtain a copy of libART as required by KDE 3.4.2?

ver


By Vern Hoxie at Thu, 2005/10/06 - 5:00am

I just want to say a HUGE "thank you!" to whoever worked to put together the RedHat RPMS. I never thought I'd ever actually see links in the KDE announcement. Thankyouthankyouthankyou.


By ac at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Jarl E. Gjessing, the same guy who recently contributed KDE 3.0.2 packages for Red Hat 7.3 (even in i386 and i686 versions).


By Anonymous at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

And you know what's even cooler? You can apt-get them. Get it setup at freshrpms.net and then point to the appropriate www.math.unl.edu directories.

Later.


By Bill at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

I seem to be missing a dependency:

kdegraphics >= 3.0.2 is needed by koffice-1.2-1

Any ideas where I can get this RedHat RPM? The unl directories don't have this. I can't even find this on RawHide! Should I just --nodeps it?


By ac at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

I made these packages with my kde-3.0.2 packages installed.
I could give any guaranties that they would work with older KDE versions, so I made the koffice package dependant to my own kde version.
This version is downlodable from KDE's ftp sites/mirrors and they are placed in the RedHat-Unofficial
directory.


By Jarl E. Gjessing at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

i am running redhat 7.3 with kde 3.1 stuff, after i intalled the koffice rpm provided from redhat, any koffice application gives me
================================
Mutex destroy failure: Device or resource busy
================================

any ideas on what to do ??

thanks


By crazycrusoe at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

My suggestion would be to get rid of the kde 3.1 bits, and downgrade to kde 3.0.2.


By Rex Dieter at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

I have the same problems w/ teh mutex destroy message. I"ve installed kde and koffice by using rex's apt source on an rh7.3 box.

apt-get install kde3
apt-get install koffice

opening any koffice application gives me the error.

any other ideas?
thanks!


By Anonymous at Wed, 2002/08/14 - 5:00am

I think I've finally squashed the "mutex detroy" error problem. Try
apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
to get the latest version.


By Rex Dieter at Sat, 2002/08/17 - 5:00am

What is apt-get update? Is that an application?

Thanks, I've run into the same problem...

--
Evan


By Evan Moseman at Wed, 2002/12/11 - 6:00am

Yes, apt is a rpm dependancy resolution tool and greatly eases the task of keeping your machine up-to-date. For more details about the use of apt to keep your KDE current, check out http://kde-redhat.sourceforge.net/


By Rex Dieter at Thu, 2002/12/12 - 6:00am

running (or trying to) the Koffice 1.2-0.rc1.4 on RedHat 8.0. I got the mutex error. I can't find any .desktop files in $HOME. I installed apt and updated things a bit (but nothing for kde/koffice came up). Koffice still yields the mutex error.

any more ideas?

what did apt upgrade for you all?


By JP at Tue, 2003/01/07 - 6:00am

FYI, the KDE 3.0.2 (including koffice-1.2rc1) RPMS referenced on my website, http://www.math.unl.edu/~rdieter/ are *not* the same as the "unofficial" redhat kde 3.0.2 rpms available from http://www.kde.org/

-- Rex


By Rex Dieter at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

As far as I can see, you're packages are RawHide packages with you're own patches!!??

The meaning with my packages was, to make then run on a std. RedHat-7.2 without having to apply a plethora of new packages.

I have tried to install the RawHide packages on my machine, and the dependency problem was a nightmare, but then again, the RawHide is not meant for production or stable workstation, but for developers and tasters (correct me if I'm wrong).

In fact the user dont have to download any packages other than the KDE packages, and just use packages delivered woth RedHat, this makes it an ease to install.


By Jarl E. Gjessing at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

Sorry, I meant testers not tasters :-)


By Jarl E. Gjessing at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

I ported the rawhide packages to RedHat 7.2/7.3, yes. I chose this so the kde I (and my department used) would mirror redhat's development (and redhat 8.0) as close as possible (and I get the advantage of seeing/watching redhat's bug-tracking via bugzilla.redhat.com).

As for dependancies, well, yes, there are some, and that's one reason why I my kde rpms are apt'able (apt-get), so that dependancies are handled for you.


By Rex Dieter at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

.... are there any debian (3.0*) packages available too .. ?

thx,
deucalion


By deucalion[tpoc] at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am


By Anonymous at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

thx!


By deucalion[tpoc] at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

its no problem compiling them though. just add an extra entry to the /debian/changelog and go "dpkg-builtpackage" in the packages root-dir. (I tried it today). the only thng you need to make sure is that you have libxslt1-dev installed before compiling. For all other dependencies you should get error-messages rather in the beginning, but for this one, you don*t get before some time at the end of the built-process.


By Johannes Wilm at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

I can load my koffice 1.1 work without any problem and all visual glitches have been settled. I just love the frames. Great work. a huge thx.


By happy user at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Can koffice export to MS Word .doc yet?


By me at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

shouldn't reply to my own post, but i found the filters status page (http://www.koffice.org/filters/status.phtml).
.doc import but no export (this wouldn't be so bad if rtf support was good, but apparently both import/export are alpha)
.xls import, no export (kspread)
powerpoint import (alpha), no export (kpresenter)

Are people working on these export filters? (as much as we might hate it MS's file formats are the standard these days - i apply for a job, they ask me to email my cv in .doc format) Also is anyone working on OpenOffice import/export filters? (probably the second most important file format to support)


By me at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

KOffice is still lack of developers. Visit the filters status page, then go on to each filter, then count how many (part-time) developers are working on it. Filters will be substantially improved, but if only KOffice gets more help (code/test/money/etc)


By ariya at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Oh how I hate all this jabbing about filters, like when you see a reviw of a office program you realy get a rant of how good/bad the filters are and not the more important: the use and fuctionality of said program. If people could start to think they vould see filters are NOT the be all for a package, but more a nice to have feature. Back in the old days World Perfect had closer to 90% of the wordprocessor market and Lotus 1-2-3 nearly the same for spreadsheets, but now Word and Exel have taken their places. This was not becouse of supperior filters I can tell you, you usaually got the text and mostly the pictures/clipart but the layout and formating got more or less mangled every time and had to be redone.

Most of what you send/recive are ment as read only anyway, like your CV, and there Koffice realy shines thanks to the nice kprint framwork. Use PDFs, it's Adobes and realy not free but it's pretty close and cross platform. Besides I consider sending word/exel macroviruses very bad form:)

And if you recive lots of heavy formated doc/xls files, the crossover-plugin don't cost that much and ms-word and xl viewers are gratis dowloaded from M$.

If you have lots of docs you regulary edit/use or some big not finished docs, and you want to change app, you have the only big reason to need filters.


By Morty at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

I don't like recieving .doc's from people, but when i'm applying for jobs i'll do whatever they want - and most specify .doc's unfortunately


By me at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Yeah, see the problem, have always hated the jobbhunting bit and this make it suck even more:) BTW have you tried to send a PDF anyway, with a polite note sayig you don't own word, but you could get back to them with a .doc file if they can't use the PDF (perhaps pointier to Acrobat reader). It's a gamble, but they would notice your application and thats usually good:) If one of the jobb requrements are ms-office skills, probably not:).

My last replay was mostly becouse today I read the second "test/reviw" of office progs. this week and both realy bolied down comparison of the filters, not what I was interested in (and consider more important) the usability, functionality, speed etc. Even payed for the crappy magazine:(


By Morty at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

On the other hand. Some do not accept doc-files because of the virus risc.
Pdf-files are always ok.


By Anne-Marie Mahfouf at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

Oh how I hate when people tell me what features are important to me. For many people if they can't seemlessly send and receive word documents from co-workers/clients the office suite is useless. Count yourself lucky that these features are not needed by you. Sure there are ways to get around it (PDFs, txt files etc), but they are unwieldy and difficult to understand for non-technical people (What do you mean you don't have Microsoft Excel?). Until KOffice has a solid set of Import/Export filters it is simply unusable in most business environments.


By beergeek at Sun, 2002/08/11 - 5:00am

> Oh how I hate when people tell me what features are important to me.

Really? Maybe there's a reason they tell you? In any case the point wasn't aimed at you. It was made in general. And it was a good point. Having good import and export without a solid feature set is a sure way to alienate everyone.

> For many people if they can't seemlessly send and receive word documents from co-workers/clients the office suite is useless.

Maybe so, which is why I specify koffice docs in my office. There's always openoffice.org if for some reason I have to sent to the brain dead.

> Count yourself lucky that these features are not needed by you.

Luck has nothing to do with it. It was freedom of choice... goes well with entrepneurial spirit. If you're counting on luck you're always going to be living off whatever people will hand you because ships don't come in that you don't send out.

> Sure there are ways to get around it (PDFs, txt files etc), but they are unwieldy and difficult to understand for non-technical people

What are you a troll?! Do you know how to use the KDE print system to print to PDF. For that matter Postscript and PDF are options with ghostscript printing for years. Although I don't run windoze I find it really difficult to believe they won't have a PDF reader (they're still free and very popular on the web) and that there won't be a pdf association that makes it a one click affair. Besides... Wurd docs may look different from system to system for settings or fonts where as pdf is... well Portable Document Format. Duh?

> (What do you mean you don't have Microsoft Excel?)

If you're ashamed of your computing choices switch... or did you already? I told a college student in the gym I used Linux and he looked at me with awe and asked "What make's it so great?". I tell other business people I don't use M$ software and they look at me like I had money falling out of my pockets and ask how I do it. I can assure you anyone who cuts the checks or hires the huge support staff is not going to scoff at you. However the ditzy secretary might... I'm sure you want to impress her.

> Until KOffice has a solid set of Import/Export filters it is simply unusable in most business environments.

Says you? I believe the previous poster was right. When Koffice produces a solid and usable suite that fits well within an organization it will be more widely used. It is more friendly and less bloated than OO and it has a lot of promise.

As for the filter issue, in case you're forgetting that Koffice is widely developed by volunteers, what is needed is for more people to step forward. I have my own project (Quanta) and I don't frankly care about the filters exporting because I'm sending PDF. If it means so much to you then I suggest you get off your ass and do something about it. Free software is about community. Everyone is welcome to use it but free software critics... may as well be freeloaders to complain about what is give to them for free.

What is really needed for document exchange is open formats, preferably based on XML. Your reasoning does not take into account that M$ changes formats regularly to force upgrades and to mess with competitors by keeping them on a treadmill. In fact M$ Office does not even do a perfect job with the overly complex and difficut format... which dumps out all kinds of personal information about you in plain text...

Thankfully the world is not entirely populated by people with attitudes like this that utterly assure the perpetual domination of M$. Your reasoning would nix Koffice if M$ Office had only a 25% market share. Fortunately other will take initiative on other critical issues where MS office is weak... like standards, unwillingness to fix long standing bugs, bloat, privacy issues and hideous costs.

BTW what I hate is people saying something in public forums that is poorly thought out and works to perpetuate the use of M$ software. The Koffice team has their priorities right.


By Eric Laffoon at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

Eric Laffoon you are completely missing the point.

Lots of people (myself included) CANNOT ditch MSOffice because the most of the world assumes you can read .ppt and .doc. Sure it's easy to print to pdf in KDE but what good does that do me when the people I work with use Windows, Word, and Powerpoint? It isn't easy for them!

I think you're absolutely wrong to think that internal features are more important than filters - most people use a fraction of the capabilities of Word, and would never notice their absence. Not being able to read (for instance) the de-facto standard for presenting (.ppt) EVERYONE will notice.

I've tried KOffice and quite liked it, but until it has functional filters I'm simply not using it.

Thank heavens for openoffice!


By Edward Moyse at Tue, 2002/08/13 - 5:00am

Umh...
I'm running a small office with about 10 desktop linux pc for
half a year now (previously windows pc). There's no MS-Office
software, just OpenOffice...
We are constantly
recieving MS-Word .docs by mail, but in half a year there were only
about 5 .doc-files which could not be opened with OO...
most users like the system (because of easy e-mail handling and sweet
kprinter, everyone is sending .pdf-files now: it's fun. They even
use KOrganizer) There's only one user which is bitching about linux
all the time. If he get's an .doc-file which is not displayed 100%
correctly by OO he's always getting mad...
I'd really like to have 100% correct filters for MS-Office but this is
impossible. We'll have to live with it.


By thomas at Mon, 2002/08/12 - 5:00am

You can consider the RTF import filter as being much more than "alpha".

However, the RTF export filter is not working correctly. (That is the problem of having lost a maintainer.)

As for whatever someone work for these filters, it is always problem: we are lacking manpower.

However DOC import, RTF export, OpenOffice Writer export and XLS import have good chances for KOffice 1.3.

Volunteers welcomed!

Have a nice day/evening/night!


By Nicolas GOUTTE at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

OpenOffice writer export would be a good start :-) - it has good .doc export, so could be used to do the conversion.


By me at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am


By RobW at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Anyone got any idea what is happening to apps.kde.org? No new applications for what, 3 weeks??


By Bojan at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Sorry, I meant apps.kde.com


By Bojan at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

Read the lastest "News" entry there to get an idea.


By Anonymous at Sat, 2002/08/10 - 5:00am

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