NOV
27
2001

KC KDE #26 Is Out

This week, Aaron J. Seigo, Juergen Appel and Rob Kaper present the jam-packed Kernel Cousin KDE #26. Read about how Linux father, Linus Torvalds, is also a model KDE user and bug reporter, LISa the new Lan Browsing Wizard, Kinkatta plugins, the Boson real-time strategy game, a KDE Script Interface, news of a kdeedu module, the KDE3 beta1 week delay, and much more. Thanks, guys!

Comments

Remember, system-wide scripting is what got MS into the security nightmare it is today. What is to prevent from someone writing a ILOVEYOU for KMail and DCOP? Please tell me it is not possible.


By Fresh, so fresh at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Done with a bit of care, it's not possible. The core problems with MS and Outlook are that:

* Outlook uses the HTML viewing component from IE. This opens up a huge amount of functionality that doesn't belong in a mail client. Javascipt, client side VBScript, ActiveX etc. The security settings are meant to make this safe, but people have been finding ways (read: bugs) around the security model since day 0.

* Outlook makes running dangerous content too easy. This situation is improved somewhat in the later version of Outlook, but old version will happily let users run .reg (registry settings modifications), .exe (programs), .wsh (scripts) files straight from inside the browser. 98% of people don't even know what they are doing or what these files types are.

The fundamental problem that MS and basically every OS producer faces these days is that it's extremely easy for untrusted content and code to enter a system. Examples:

* Someone sends you a Word doc with macros.
* Someone sends you a self extracting Zip file.
* You download an RPM from somewhere.
* Download and install an playable demo of "Overkill 3 Pro" from the net.
* Even extracting a normal zip archive can be dangerous.

It's almost impossible to trust anything that comes in from outside. You have the choice of being safe and not even trying to use the content/code, or using it and being 100% exposed.

Pity there is not way of tagging a file on the filesystem level (for example) as being untrusted and requiring extra care. (i.e. sandboxes, running in a jail environment etc).

--
Simon
http://www.simonzone.com/software/guarddog/


By Simon at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Actually I think it would be a good idea that if the email client ebmedded the
web browser it treated it just like it was a webpage as far as security is conerned. The problem with outlook is that IE has more privs when viewing under outlook then it does when viewing a webpage. That would make looking at an email no more potentially dangerous then browsing the web. If the web browser has security problems browsing the web then they need to be fixed at least konqueror seems to be doing very nicely in that department.

I would treat emails as completely untrested and run them in that way. Attachements would open the same way that konqueror opens a file off the web with the exact same permission set.

Also items should be identified with file if possible to determine the right application to open them in based on the content type and only non executable content should be able to open by default. Everything that is executable should have to go through a user acknoledgement. So an mp3, ogg, wav, jpg, mpeg etc would get through just fine but a binary application, shell script etc would not. That doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do and it would be at least as safe as it is now. It would also be nice if all apps in kde had a concept of tainted data so that anything the system pulls in from outside the filesystem is automatically "tainted" and treated as suspect by the various programs. So if you open a jpeg from your home directory it can be safe but if you open a jpeg off the web it would be set as tainted by default and checked to see if it actually was a jpeg and openeded only with a jpeg opener program and any failure would put a small error link on the page where the image should have been. This would keep people from makeing something an executable binary and calling .jpg just on the offchance a jpeg program would see it and actually run it instead of viewing it. The same would apply to any macros that may get put in kword docs later. So by default any tainted document opened would disable all of those kinds of features and open the document read only and not allow it to pull information from anywhere else. You would then be told what else the document wanted to do and you could clear it for those actions wanted.


By kosh at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Actually the script engines can all run in a sandbox enviroment if the developer chooses. This is the way the javascript script engine will work afaik, and I am looking at doing python this way too.

The coolest thing about the script engine is that nothing is done automaticly. The user still has to install and run the script. This is very secure because one has to be very on the ball to install two files to $KDEDIR/share/apps//scripts/ just for the script to become available to the application.

As I have some more userland examples finished I will have some very verbose documentation as to how developers can use this in their applications. As an example for now look at:
http://geiseri.kdedevelopers.net/katescript1.png
http://geiseri.kdedevelopers.net/katescript2.png
http://geiseri.kdedevelopers.net/katescript3.png

This is a very simple example, but it is proof of life...

Cheers
-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Basically, we need a capability based operating system -
see http://www.eros-os.org


By Rob at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

:: Pity there is not way of tagging a file on the filesystem level (for example) as being untrusted and requiring extra care. (i.e. sandboxes, running in a jail environment etc).

There is... simply create a user "kdeuntrusted" or "publicuser" or "outsideuser", and make all executable files brought in from outside have their suid bit and ownership set to that. Or just use the common "nobody" (I was thinking a kdespecific user, but it should probably be a shadow user to each KDE user, so you can set permissions).

Now that will create an *enormous* headache for UI, permissions management, and help text. Plus, you're looking at breaking system dependencies if you go too far (for instance, BSD has jail, Linux has the upcoming fine grained kernel permissions, etc. - which are useful, but not portable).

But it *can* be done. KDE 4.0, maybe? I rememeber when people were talking about antialiasing being "in KDE 3.0 maybe?". :)

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Where do you see the difference between calling 'mail -s ILOVEYOU some@addre.ss' and 'dcop kmail KMailIface sendMail "some@addre.ss" "" "" "ILOVEYOU"' if it would exist?


By Someone at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Okay step 1: Stop
Step 2: Decide, am I ignorant or just a troll.
Step 3: If you are ignorant please read below:

No, it is just as hard to write a script virus with dcop as it is with normal shell. This is an over debated topic, and on the off chance you can use a search engine, you will see the list/dot/usenet and slashdot archives all talk about this in painful detail. If you are even inclined you could even read about what DCOP scripting is. You would think that after about 20 years of shell scripting being arround, if there was a way to make a virus spread using it, they would have found one?

Please, next time you try to spread FUD do so on some topic that you have a chance at supporting your fearmongering.

Cheers
-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Well, from what I have seen, there are two forms of security. One is to just build something and then try and patch it when it goes wrong, the second is to develop logically and make sure that if something is wrong at a certain stage, it never gets through to another stage, so you don't need to patch it there.

The DCOP scripting engine seems to be taking the right, mature and well-considered option.

Ian, this looks really exciting stuff, giving us some real power to scripting, which could be so valuable in a desktop environment, but Windows has managed to make so insecure that we can't even use it for legitimate means. Hell, we can't be sure that it will actually do what it is supposed to, to be honest. Implementing basic scripts can induce crashes under Windows very easily.

It's looking really good, and I can't wait to get my hands on this stuff and have a good play around.

Thanks mate, you're doing a really great job.

-Luke Chatburn


By Luke Chatburn at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

Linux virises can be a reality but they are far from what MS viruses ar because of the security implementations on linux and it archtecture itself.

No.1: There can be linux viruses!.
No.2: By the nature of linux (thus KDE) any virus damage is very limmited, probably to only the user directory.
No.3: Virus writters not only select MS because they products are the less secure in the market, they want to get the most people as well, so is very unlikely that any virus writter will spend time writing a virus that will do almost no damage to the system and that will be much less spreaded compared to a MS virus.


By M at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

So, it seems many people are reporting build problems related to KDE from HEAD. I too, have problems:

c++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I../../.. -I../../../arts/mcop -I../../../arts/qtmcop -I../../../arts/kde -I../../../arts/soundserver -I../../../arts/flow -I../../../dcop -I../../../libltdl -I../../../kdecore -I../../../kdeui -I../../../kssl -I/usr/lib/qt3/include -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/opt/kde3//include -DQT_THREAD_SUPPORT -D_REENTRANT -DNDEBUG -O2 -fno-exceptions -fno-check-new -ftemplate-depth-99 -DQT_NO_TRANSLATION -DQT_CLEAN_NAMESPACE -DQT_NO_ASCII_CAST -DQT_NO_COMPAT -Wp,-MD,.deps/kmcop_la.all_cpp.pp -c kmcop_la.all_cpp.cpp -fPIC -DPIC -o .libs/kmcop_la.all_cpp.o
In file included from kmcop_la.all_cpp.cpp:3:
mcopdcopobject.cpp: In method `class Arts::Buffer * MCOPDCOPObject::callFunction(MCOPEntryInfo *, QCString, const QByteArray &)':
../../../arts/mcop/object.h:91: `long int Arts::Object_base::_getObjectID() const' is protected
mcopdcopobject.cpp:90: within this context
../../../arts/mcop/object.h:92: `class Arts::Connection * Arts::Object_base::_getConnection() const' is protected
mcopdcopobject.cpp:124: within this context
../../../arts/mcop/object.h:92: `class Arts::Connection * Arts::Object_base::_getConnection() const' is protected
mcopdcopobject.cpp:126: within this context
make[4]: *** [kmcop_la.all_cpp.lo] Error 1
make[4]: Leaving directory `/opt/kde3/src/kdelibs/arts/kde/mcop-dcop'
make[3]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[3]: Leaving directory `/opt/kde3/src/kdelibs/arts/kde'
make[2]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/opt/kde3/src/kdelibs/arts'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/opt/kde3/src/kdelibs'
make: *** [all-recursive-am] Error 2
$

qt-copy and kdelibs from HEAD.


By Carg at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

This is definitively the wrong place to ask.
Don't run HEAD if you are not a developer and don't know where to ask!


By Someone at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

I'm only asking here because it was reported in this week's KC.

I'm running HEAD because I hope to see all the compilation problems fixed before the beta 1 release, which is near.


By Carg at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

KC summarizes mailing-lists and is mentionend here. But KC doesn't summarize dot.kde.org postings and posts them to mailing-lists. So if you have problem you have to post yourself to the mailing-lists. Sounds logical, or?


By Someone at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

I can't believe I'm arguing this, but anyway.

I'm discussing something mentioned in the article.


By Carg at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

Don't argue, just notice you get no help here.


By Someone at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

Oh, really? But the problem's been fixed.

Thanks.


By Carg at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

From Linus' bug report:
>The problem happens with .kwd files too, I just happen to test
>with the sources for the manuscript for "Just for Fun" (which was
>done on a iMac with Word)

Presumably that was his coauthor using the iMac and Word. Still, it's something to provoke people with the next time a MacOS advocacy war breaks out on Slashdot. ;-)


By Otter at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Thinking of Thesaurus, I use WordNet as my personal dictionary in KDE (installed locally) and it is indeed a nice one with KDict.

I have also contributed this Autocorrect Database like entries:
http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=258

These thesaurus and Autocorrect entries will make KWord much useful for the Desktop User and Corporate ones too.

I persistently requested at bugs.kde.org to have a white mouse pointer and animated mouse cursors but no body heard. So, I created (though I did not knew much about bdf fonts, Rick Hamsley suggested me to get the sources and use xmbdfed). Luckily I got this white mouse cursor which beautifies KDE a bit more. But for not so high resolutions (800x600):

Normal white mouse cursor:
http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=134

Large white mouse cursor:
http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=281

Are there any hopes of having Animated Mouse pointers for KDE??? Even this can be implement very easily, like replacing the bitmapped pointer with a nice PNG image, just like 'Show Busy Cursor' option. And then We the users can create many _REAL_NICE_ animated mouse pointers.

After being in Love with KDE for over 2 years, I feel that KDE has problems with:

1. Toolbars: arrangement, text configurations are not as expected.You can't add all desired buttons in the main toolbar of Konqueror for example. Grammatical incorrect usage in Toolbar options like "Text Position" which doesn't make any sense to the user are used. Instead it can be renamed to

"View"-> icons only
-> Text Only
-> Text Aside icons
-> Text Under Icons
instead of:

"Text Position"
-> icons only
-> Text Only
-> Text Aside icons
-> Text Under Icons

2. Memory Management: Large files like this "English to Hindi Dictionary" which is about 3.9mb will destablize KDE if opened in Konqueror and when you don't have KDE's amount of ram say 128mb. The Memory management is very bad, KDE get unstable by konqueror to display a mere 3.9mb file with a system running kde with 128mb ram. no other application was running. This problem with not happen when you have 256+ ram, but KDE application must be optimized to handle large and huge files. This is that file:

http://sanskrit.gde.to/hindi/dict/eng-hin.html

Now if you open the above file with Netscape 4.77 you won't have any problem at all. Some KDE users were saying that Galeon was also efficient to handle this file. But I did not checked that out.

3. Styles: Most styles do not have Taskbar buttons and Slider Handle implemented. And the 'Separator' in toolbars do not appear at all. even when you insert more than one separator by 'Configure Toolbar' option. Even the QTWindows Style does not look like Windows sytle on the kicker. Please see Wish-Kicker.png, (attachment). Ignore the 'K Start' button, but observe the "Task Buttons" and the 'separator and applet handle' which are not supposed to flat, as our current KDE has :(

4. Fonts and Resolution: In Windows the Standard X dpi resolution is 96dpi, and most webpages etc., use that. Now in KDE if you use M$ fonts the sizes vary very much and fonts look ugly. Even KDict ignores the X -dpi resolution set in '/etc/X11/xdm/Xservers' file. I set that to '96 dpi' which makes fonts look more nicer than the 100dpi or the 75dpi. yes the default font settings in the KDE are great.

5. Window Focus: here is the simple way to under stand this annoyance:

1. Click on "KWord"/"KControl" button, now quickly
1. Press Alt+F2, and begin to
2. enter "dot.kde.org/1006857856" (this is slow to type isn't it?)
3. Did you finished typing, or got annoyed by the switch of focus to kword/kcontrol causing much frustration.

In Windows 2000, This trouble has been removed which was bugging win95 and win98, Now new windows appear in background and the taskbutton blinks to show that a new window has activated, while you can comfortably type/do your work.

This also bothers me when I read in Konqeror web browser, and when I choose to open in new window, the new window annoyingly appears, disturbing my reading/typing.

I wish and pray for KDE 3 to be more memory efficient and no non-sense desktop environment.


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Sorry Forgot to attach the sample taskbar image.


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

heh, yeah there is always one of these jokers who likes this idea...
really it is pretty bad and sucky...

i mean what does start mean to me?
isnt the computer all ready started...

Really if we wanted to get cutesy and add text why dont we call it run? Well because it does many things, not only run... Really the metephore is pisspoor... This is why apple always did the Apple... and Winders tried to be smart and make a start bar. Really it gains nothing but UI clutter. Even they surrenderd and had to make an arrow saying "Press here idiot".

Windows is not the standard here... If you want to use windows please do, I am not stopping you. If you want to build a first class UI, then read the studies that have been done. Apple, Amiga and NeXT did a great deal of actual research, read their papers.

Cheers
-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Now, now, let's not get snooty. The post wasn't even *about* the "start" button; it was talking about whether the toolbar handles are flat or not. The look of the K button should be (and is already) up to the user.


By Rakko at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

heh, yeah there is always one of these jokers who likes this idea...
really it is pretty bad and sucky...

i mean what does start mean to me?
isnt the computer all ready started...

Really if we wanted to get cutesy and add text why dont we call it run? Well because it does many things, not only run... Really the metephore is pisspoor... This is why apple always did the Apple... and Winders tried to be smart and make a start bar. Really it gains nothing but UI clutter. Even they surrenderd and had to make an arrow saying "Press here idiot".

Windows is not the standard here... If you want to use windows please do, I am not stopping you. If you want to build a first class UI, then read the studies that have been done. Apple, Amiga and NeXT did a great deal of actual research, read their papers.

Cheers
-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

>i mean what does start mean to me?

and what does main(){} means to you? People ask "Why click on Start to shutdown my computer?" here is the answer:

Start->Shutdown (Start the process of shutdown)
Start->Programs->Word (Start the program word)

Simply put the Start as "Begin The process of". Then the "Start" will make sense. Now you tell me "What does K stands for???" ("Krash?")

and

K->Internet->Konqueror (Krash konqueror on the Internet ;)???

Don't mind but that k button will make more sense if it had some text describing its purpose like "Menu" or "Open" "Begin", or even "Linux".

By the way Wordnet dictionary meanings of 'start':

START:
Verb:
1. Take the first step or steps in carrying out an action.
2. Set in motion, cause to start
3. Have a beginning, in a temporal, spatial, or evaluative sense
4. Begin or set in motion
5. Begin work or acting in a certain capacity, office or job

Hope 'Start' now makes sense to you!


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

it only means these things because you where trained. i personally have never run windows. i guess i do not understand why we need to break our good UI design for a few lazy windows users.

cheers
-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

> i guess i do not understand why we need to break our good UI design for a few lazy windows users.

First of all we don't have to break anything our Good UI has. Only a horizontal variable has to be defined in kicker sources and the Styles has to add the 'not-implemented' code of slider, applet-handle, and taskbuttons. a good style is Qnix. Unfortunately I don't know KDE programming and even after looking and tampering the kicker sources I could not get it done.

And Windows users are not lazy. Computers are meant to ease the work of humans not to burden with more typing and memorizing. Why use a Car, when you can walk. Does it means that you are lazy whenever you use a Car a Bed or Sofa.

Let's pray Computers/Desktop Environments, ease the work we have to do and not to burden ourselves with cryptic commands 'kcmshell kstyle' to run sytle kcontrol module, or 'kfmclient openURL /usr/share/icons'. KDE provides much more comfort than windows. But only KOffice 1.2 or 3.0 will make KDE a usable platform.


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Fact: over 90% of the current computer users in the world today "where trained" that way. It's not just "a few lazy windows users", it's a user base orders of magnitude greater than the number of KDE users today. KDE is already mimicking the Start menu with the default K menu layout anyway. You could deny it but you'd be wrong.

Besides, since when is it a good idea to make an interface *less* configurable? I don't have any use for the word "Start", but I'd dearly love to be able to make my K menu button tiny while leaving enough room in the kicker for two rows of taskbar buttons. Without writing C++ code or waiting hours for all of KDE to rebuild.

Ideally an "ex Windows user" theme could include something to make Kicker look like the screenshot he posted, an "ex Mac user" theme could have the task switcher where the clock is in his shot and no "Start" text or taskbar, etc. Providing a way for newly converted users to feel comfortable has existed since Microsoft added Lotus keystroke support to early versions of Excel. (Probably before that too, but at any rate where's 1-2-3 now?) Once they feel comfortable, they discover they can customize their environment and they don't need the crutch anymore, but without the crutch they may never get there.

The time for elitism has been over for years now. The rest of us have grown up and now it's your turn.


By raindog at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

>KDE is already mimicking the Start menu with the default K menu layout
>anyway. You could deny it but you'd be wrong.

Actually I think the original idea of the K menu came from Afterstep which came from NeXT Step which came from MacOS. Where do you think windows got it from, nothing in the Windows UI is anything more than a broken ripoff of some other system.

As for flexability, it is a plugin that you can build a new one if you wish. I think you can even change the pixmap on it, if you get into that sort of thing.

Really this is not about "growing up" or "being elete". This is about following good design rules. I have read about 15 papers on UI design, and so far none have said anything positive about the "start" menu. In fact they all have issue with the default location on top of the fact that "Start" makes no sense.

In reality the "K" menu is just like any other menu on your kicker. I think Steve Jobs said* it best when he said "The only intuitive user interface is the nipple, after that it is all learned." So lets all sit down, read a help page or two and move on to more important things.

Personally I see no need to waste time on such a trivial element of the UI, if you do by all means write a kicker extention and go install it. Really a more pressing issue of the UI is stuff like handleing meta-data, but that may be to dry for most people :P

Cheers
-ian reinhart geiser

* I am not 100% on the quote, I heard it at an ADC keynote some years ago when they where complaining about dragging a floppy to the trashcan to eject it.


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

I don't understand why everybody seems compelled to mention everything in Windows is a 'broken ripoff' of another system? Isn't the same thing far more true of both GNOME and KDE? Every usability study I've seen is that Linux GUIs are way behind Windows.

In fact, while there are flaws, on the whole W2K is a _fine_ GUI and extremely well-thought interface (if not entirely original).


By Chris Bordeman at Fri, 2001/11/30 - 6:00am

Well namely because I have never used Winders on a regular basis. I grew up using MacOS and NeXT so every time I have been forced into Windows I notice how broken it is. But that is just the point. 90% of the Windows users are trained to like what they get, they are not use to thing operateing normally. Most people do not realize that there are better ways of doing things, they just complain if they have to learn something new. If you are not comfortable in a car, then dont ride in it, but when your little SMART cannot do what my custom BMW can dont cry.

I use KDE because it is an interesting project, I am helping make it better. No it is not perfect, but you know what? Unlike Winders I have no control over how sucky it is. If you like Winders us it, please, it will keep you out of my hair long enough to do something useful. If you want a choice though use KDE.

-ian reinhart geiser


By Ian Reinhart Geiser at Fri, 2001/11/30 - 6:00am

>The time for elitism has been over for years now. The rest of us have >grown up and now it's your turn.
And I think it's really really bad because now every #$%$% ass hole can tell what todo.
Mathieu


By chouimat at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

don't listen to him - he is just a troll

But - really - this is too similar to windows. I agree that it has great usability - it is one of the reasons this paradigm has reached 95% of all desktops. But the developers will loose a great deal of respect if they simply copied Windows so closely. But why not include it as a "Windows-look" non-default option? I really think they should do that, and a lot of users would probably use it.


By will at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

sorry,
why do we battle each other about such a tiny problem? someday, i thought, that gnu/linux/kde and all other, (please dont complain, i didnt want to start any kind of war) were an open developement, where everything was possible. nowerdays i see, that these groups dont want to be better, they only want to be something other or something strange. why couldnt it be possible to _fully_ customize kde? no, we only want to be _not_ like windoze. once, i say my own point of view concerning anything, that could be pro-win, im dead. (fyi, im not a win-lover...)

just a thought...
bhgic

poor english - i know...


By bhgic at Thu, 2001/11/29 - 6:00am

Rest assured, the trolls have nothing whatsoever to do with the actual people developing KDE or any OSS.


By Carbon at Fri, 2001/11/30 - 6:00am

What's so special with this? Kicker is very capable to show exactly like this (lest the stupid "start" text)


By Inorog at Thu, 2001/11/29 - 6:00am

>What's so special with this? Kicker is very capable to show exactly like this
>(lest the stupid "start" text)

Just put a word "Menu" or "KDE" or "Linux" or "Unix" beside the 'K' icon. Kicker can't have text :( not even the stupid 'start' text. I want "Linux" there much like "ICEwm.". But when????


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Fri, 2001/11/30 - 6:00am

This also bothers me when I read in Konqeror web browser, and when I choose to open in new window, the new window annoyingly appears, disturbing my reading/typing

It annoys you that a new window appears when you tell it to open one? Then don't open a new window, and it won't appear!


By uhmmmm at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

>>This also bothers me when I read in Konqeror web browser, and when I choose to
>>open in new window, the new window annoyingly appears, disturbing my reading/typing

>It annoys you that a new window appears when you tell it to open one? Then don't open a new window, and it won't appear

Ok, I agree, but what about popup windows, and suppose you opened an app or window and you were typing, the text you were typing get lost.

or

say you are reading a big article, a popup window appears hijacking the focus of the window you were reading. I feel that is an annoyance. It's just like you are reading a paper and someone puts a file/paper in front of your book.


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

The problem is that the windows don't actually open when you click on it... and that's normal.

Sometimes, you click on an app because you want to use it later and, while it's loading, you do another thing. Then the new window is ready and catches your keystrokes. That's annonying.

Especially if the new window has hot keys such as "SHIFT-C -> close" ;)


By Julien Olivier at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

>Especially if the new window has hot keys such as "SHIFT-C -> close" ;)

One word: KMail!
I've already accidentally deleted mail because of that.


By Guido at Fri, 2001/11/30 - 6:00am

Can't you use bugs.kde.org for bugs/wishes? If you already have done so, then great! Otherwise people should use bugs.kde.org since developers can keep track of things much more easily and not everyone reads 'the dot' for bug reports.


By ac at Tue, 2001/11/27 - 6:00am

Could you tell me which package has these:

1. Animated Cursors
2. Toolbars
3. Naming conventions
4. Drag & Drop
5. Memory Management

I don't know which package handles the above topics. I will be glad to report wishlists and bug reports but these are common to every application. And BTW F2 rename bug has been fixed since it was discussed here.


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

> 1. Animated Cursors
xfree

> 2. Toolbars
kdelibs or the specific application

> 3. Naming conventions
kdelibs or specific application

> 4. Drag & Drop
kdelibs or the specific application

> 5. Memory Management
Probably kdelibs as well, or the specific application


By Rob Kaper at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

Thanks Rob Kaper, Here goes the bug reports and wishlists .....:)


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

Good examples : you see that it is not easy for anybody to find the good items...

Can you help me to find the good ones, so that I may post two wishes : add in KdeGames two very very good games of Gnome, Ataxx and "Seven colours" (and it is possible to make stronger and more parameted games than the Gnome ones...)


By Alain at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

Hm, there isn't a real team that makes games and decides what we include, it's more a loose collection of developers who make their own games. So your best chance would be to ask a KDE (game) developer if he might be into it (subscribe to one of the KDE mailinglists, like kde-devel or kde-games-devel) or start coding it yourself and offer it for inclusion! The mailinglists are also a good forum for programming help. :-)


By Rob Kaper at Fri, 2001/11/30 - 6:00am

Hm, there isn't a real team that makes games and decides what we include, it's more a loose collection of developers who make their own games. So your best chance would be to ask a KDE (game) developer if he might be into it (subscribe to one of the KDE mailinglists, like kde-devel or kde-games-devel) or start coding it yourself and offer it for inclusion! The mailinglists are also a good forum for programming help. :-)


By Rob Kaper at Fri, 2001/11/30 - 6:00am

You obviously have a lot of desire to see KDE succeed. Why don't you start contributing yourself? It's really the only way to really get what you want out of open source software. KDE could use a dedicated person like you. Posting your desires here on the Dot isn't really the thing to do if you really want them fulfilled.

About the start button: Please drop it. Let me list the reasons it is a bad idea:

1. Microsoft probably has a trademark on the Start button
2. You can't put text in the image, because it couldn't be translated then
3. How should it behave when the panel is large? I don't see a good place for the text when the panel is in its large size. You would have to deal with each possible size, plus the sides of the screen.
4. Many people who use KDE (and some who don't) would be offended by the similarity to Windows and KDE would get a _lot_ of criticism.
5. The usability benefits aren't that great. Once a KDE user discovers the "K" menu button, they won't forget its location, no matter what the icon looks like. There are much better ways of helping the user find the K button for the first time than labeling it "Start," such as making an arrow point to it the first time KDE is started, or having little "balloons" like Windows XP or the Mac "Balloon help."


By not me at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

Oh, whoops, I didn't see the "ignore the K start button" there. Sorry! Disregard the last half of my post please.


By not me at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

>1. Microsoft probably has a trademark on the Start button

I don't feel so, have you seen StarOffice 5.1 or 5.2 lately? Do you think the Start button of StartOffice is a copyright or trademark violation? definitely not.

>2. You can't put text in the image, because it couldn't be translated then

it can be translated if it had '[k-image] Menu' or '[tux-image] Linux' or '[Konqi-image] Desktop'.

>3. How should it behave when the panel is large? I don't see a good place for
>the text when the panel is in its large size.

I don't expect k-start to be the default appearance; it can be an optional component to assist the ex-windows users. The Normal and Large sizes need no labels (except popup text), as they look neat and good.

>4. Many people who use KDE (and some who don't) would be offended by the
>similarity to Windows and KDE would get a _lot_ of criticism.

and many people get offended when KDE do not behave like Windows, like the keybindings, windows uses ctrl+c, Ctrl+v etc., what if we say that these are windowish things and discard them. then how would you say KDE be a user friendly desktop environment?

People are critical on anything others do and not what they themselves do. it is a sad and horrible nature of people:"Disrespecting others likes and criticizing for other's likes and dispositions." Hatred is not the answer! Having a k-start or tux-linux or k-desktop menu button will not infringe any copyright but will add more choices for many different types of users. I don't want this to be the default button, but as an optional feature (which can be disabled much like icon zooming).

>5. The usability benefits aren't that great.

only when you use high resolution 1024x768+. but when you use 800x600 resolution like most desktop pc with Windows and mine with KDE+RH linux. The small 16x16 button is very bothersome to be clicked, unlike this proposed 18x55 (hxw). What do you feel clicking in a small square box is easier or a rectangular button?

and yes, the Start is not necessarily the word we must have to use in the k-button. here are my guesses:

1. Begin
2. Menu
3. Desktop
4. KDE
5. Linux
6. [your name]
7. Unix
8. Launcher
9. Kommence
10. Kick Start
12. GO...
13. System
14. etc... everybody has better imagination it can be made an option.

I ask why hatred towards microsoft, it seems that we forget Jesus teachings "Pray for thy enemy." If Christians followed the teachings of Jesus then there would be no bombs and missile and shootouts in the schools :( Oh sorry I am getting a bit emotional.


By Asif Ali Rizwaan at Wed, 2001/11/28 - 6:00am

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