Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated

Tuesday, 10 July 2001 | Dre

Konqueror has received another huge shot in the arm, this time by gaining the ability to embed MSIE ActiveX controls such as the popular Shockwave Player. KDE developers Nikolas Zimmermann and Malte Starostik today announced the initial release of reaktivate. While not perfect yet, work is ongoing to support other controls for which no native Linux/Unix solutions exist, such as Apple's QuickTime. Credit goes to the WINE developers for providing the ActiveX support. So now that Konqueror can embed MSIE ActiveX controls, Netscape Communicator plugins (for Linux), any X window (through X window parenting), Java applets and any KParts components, and does an excellent job at handling HTML, CSS and JavaScript natively, it seems to me Konqueror is fast becoming the best browser on any platform. Sweet. Read more for the full press release.

DATELINE JULY 9, 2001

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

KDE Web Browser Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated

Konqueror Embraces ActiveX, Plays Shockwave Movies

July 9, 2001 (The INTERNET). Nikolas Zimmermann and Malte Starostik today announced the availability of reaktivate for Konqueror, KDE's web browser. Reaktivate enables Konqueror to embed ActiveX controls, such as the popular Shockwave movies, for which no native Linux/Unix solution exists. Reaktivate relies on the WINE libraries to load and run ActiveX controls.

With this addition, Konqueror now enables KDE users to take optimal advantage of sophisticated websites that make use of Microsoft Internet Explorer plugins, Netscape Communicator plugins for Linux and Java applets, as well as KDE plugins designed using KDE's KParts technology.

According to Malte, the reason he and Nikolas implemented reaktivate is rather simple: it broadens the spectrum of web sites accessible to Konqueror, and it was possible.

Successes and Limitations

Theoretically, Reaktivate can eventually be used to embed any ActiveX control into Konqueror. Currently, however, not all ActiveX controls are compatible with reaktivate. In particular, the Microsoft Windows Media Player cannot be installed using reaktivate (though it is not known if a player which is already installed will work with reaktivate). Thus it is likely there exist other ActiveX controls which will not yet work with reaktivate. Work is ongoing to increase compatability with other ActiveX controls, including the Apple QuickTime plugin.

So far, however, reaktivate has been successfully tested with the following ActiveX controls:

Control	Status	Test-URL	Screenshots
Macromedia Shockwave Flash 5	No known problems.	Click here	[1], [2], [3], [4], and [5]
Macromedia Shockwave Player 8	Some files require the use of a native msvcrt.dll instead of the one provided by winelib. The post-installation dialog is functional but hard to decipher due to drawing problems. Some movies do not display properly (only black stripes and rects are shown)	Click here	[1]
LivePics	Clicking the "info" button in the toolbar has no result, everything else works fine.	Click here	[1] and [2]

Note on Security

Install ActiveX controls only from sites that you trust. Microsoft's ActiveX technology has often been criticized for weak security. Those controls are dynamic libraries that are executed exactly like any other piece of code installed on the user's system. This means they have full access to the file system, the system registry etc. As a means to establish the users' trust in the controls a web site wishes to install, every ActiveX control is cryptographically signed and carries a certificate issued by an authority known to the web browser (like VeriSign). A control that has no signature or no certificate or if they are invalid will not be installed.

With reaktivate the situation is similar: the installed controls can call every WinAPI function provided by the WINE libraries and therefore have access to WINE's registry and all files visible to the WINE installation. The current implementation of reaktivate will ask the user for confirmation to install a new control, but it will not check the embedded certificate and signature. This is due to technical reasons as well as limited time. Therefore we strongly advise to install controls only from sites that you trust. To save your files from malicious controls, you might also consider using this feature only from a seperate user account that has no access to your main user's files. Reaktivate will not run from the root account.

Installing Reaktivate

Source code for reaktivate is freely available under a Free, Open Source license from the kdenonbeta module in KDE's CVS repository and its mirrors. See the KDE website for information about how to get a module from CVS. You only need the toplevel, admin and reaktivate directories from kdenonbeta. Before compiling, get the latest CVS version of WINE (a snapshot will likely not be new enough). Next, apply all patches from reaktivate/patches-for-wine/ against the WINE sources and build/install WINE. Finally, you can build and install reaktivate.

Disclaimer: reaktivate is not in any manner sponsored or endorsed by, affiliated with, or otherwise related to, Microsoft Corporation.

Thanks to Andreas "Dre" Pour and Navindra Umanee for assisting in drafting this release.

Trademarks Notices. KDE, K Desktop Environment and Konqueror are trademarks of KDE e.V. Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. Unix is a registered trademark of The Open Group. Microsoft, ActiveX, Microsoft Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player are registered trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corporation. Shockwave is a trademark or registered trademark of Macromedia, Inc. in the United States and/or other countries. Netscape and Netscape Communicator are trademarks or registered trademarks of Netscape Communications Corporation in the United States and other countries and JavaScript is a trademark of Netscape Communications Corporation. Apple and Quicktime are trademarks of Apple Computer, Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries. All other trademarks and copyrights referred to in this announcement are the property of their respective owners.

Comments:

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - L.D. - 2001-07-10

That is really neat! It's allmost like thumbing your nose at M$ and the companies that won't make plug-ins for Linux/Unix. even the ideal would be native support... I cannot wait to have a sorenson codec quicktime player for linux....

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - kde-fan - 2001-07-10

KDE developers have done it again. Just when you thought Konqueror couldn't get any better it makes a quantum leap like this. Shockwave is amazing, having this on the Linux platform is a real plus plus and I want my Quicktime! KDE Team: Do you ever sleep?

The world should know - Amazed of London - 2001-07-10

Konqueror is, all-round, the best browser in the world. Nothing else even comes close to its truly staggering featureset, its configurability, and its excellent usability. Well done KDE team! Lets keep the excellence (and releases) flowing and Konqueror will become truly world-changing.

Re: The world should know - Jelmer Feenstra - 2001-07-10

Take it easy, there's still a long way to go. I for one would rather have a konqueror with full javascript support (stable !) instead of this ActiveX technology. Just to check out this LivePics stuff I went to the following URL and noticed the javascript wasn't working properly with my konqueror from CVS. Just a few seconds later it crashed, leaving me with a backtrace leading to, indeed, the javascript libraries. This is what happens a lot lately, now I don't know if the javascript problems are caused by something else, but anyway I wouldn't go so far to call konqueror the best browser in the world. A question for the javascript developers : are you interested in backtraces from crashes caused by javascript on certain sites ? Jelmer

Re: The world should know - David Faure - 2001-07-10

> A question for the javascript developers : are you > interested in backtraces from crashes caused by > javascript on certain sites ? I think it's rather: "a question for the developers: are you interested in helping with the development of KJS ?" When Harri doesn't have time, KJS doesn't evolve much. pmk fixes the JS<->DOM stuff, but it seems the crashes we get now (the buglist is full of them), rather come from KJS itself. > I for one would rather have a konqueror with full javascript > support (stable !) instead of this ActiveX technology Different people, different interests, different challenges. KDE isn't a company, but a bunch of volunteers, remember ;)

Re: The world should know - Jelmer Feenstra - 2001-07-10

Ok, well it's just that javascript kindof scares the hell out of me as I read certain mails on the lists talking about 20 different ways of implementing mouse overs etc etc :) I'll have a look at some of the code, it might even be understandable. >> I for one would rather have a konqueror with full javascript > support (stable !) instead of this ActiveX technology > Different people, different interests, different challenges. KDE isn't a company, but a bunch of volunteers, remember ;) Ok, sorry David :) Let me just say that I'd rather see konqueror not crash all the time because of javascript issues instead of having ActiveX support. My friends keep nagging me about konqueror crashing all the time; now is that perfectly reasonable, were it not that I seem to be getting more reports of unstable konq's as the CVS revisions increase ! I know I should fix the bugs myself, but now I suddenly remember I originally replied to someone who said "konqueror is the best browser in the world". I'll have a look at some of those javascript crashes now, see if I can make something out of them.

Re: The world should know - Thorsten Schnebeck - 2001-07-11

A tip: Disable JS globally in Konqi. There are so many sites which have reasonable fall-back code. One example is www.alternate.de. If you enter this site of a German computer seller with JS on you cannot navigate their hardware list. If you try it with JS off, everything is fine. If you find a site where JS is a must have, enable it locally. Bye Thorsten

ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - n - 2001-07-10

It's amusing that while *other* projects talk about delivering Microsoft .NET *next year* and make a lot of noise about vaporware, KDE delivers code for ActiveX support *today*... What a difference. Congratulations all.

Re: ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - reprazent - 2001-07-11

Hey smart guy: ActiveX and .NET have nothing to do with each other. 'Kay, buh-bye now.

Re: ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - XFly - 2001-07-11

Don't think so and see the future. PERHAPS in 2005 there will have just some .NET programs, so be carefull insulting things which may save you from Micro$oft softs!!!

Re: ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - GuyWhoActuallyCodesWithDotNet - 2001-07-11

I would like to point out a couple of things: 1) I love Linux - I am not here to bash it. 2) KDE may deliver ActiveX support today, but Microsoft delivered it years ago. 3) .Net, as you may or may not know, is in beta right now, and the framework, from what I can tell, is really quite stable. There isn't much to complain about. The Visual Studio IDE is still a little problematic, but I have been using it at work without much difficulty. Anyway, it seems strange to me that a Linux guy would talk smack about beta software. That's pretty far along in the development stage considering the usual "something-0.0.0.0.0.1-pre-pre-alpha.tar.gz" that we're used to seeing.

Re: ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - n - 2001-07-12

Look at the subject line.

Re: ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - RevAaron - 2001-07-12

ActiveX and .NET are two very different things. There isn't some race between KDE's ActiveX support and GNU Mono. AFAIK, KDE has *no* support for anything resembling .NET, and there are not plans for it. This would put KDE behind GNOME in that sense.

Re: ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-12

Actually, AFAIK, Mono isn't just a UI, but a CLI Runtime Environment and C# compiler. Thus, both GNOME and KDE can take advantage of Mono. As far as the ActiveX vs. Mono comparison goes, I think the poster was pointing out the KDE people just finished a major MS compatiblity project while the Mono people are saying they might be part way there [on an MS compatiblity project] by the end of the year. -Tim

That's because... - ac - 2001-07-13

...ActiveX support for Konqueror has never been mentioned before. I'm sure they were already working on it a few weeks ago. If they announced that they are working on this a few weeks ago, you wouldn't say this. And this is based on Wine's existing work, which is a lot less work than Mono. BTW, there's already code available for Mono.

Re: ActiveX vs (GNU Mono and DotGNU) - JMoon5FTM - 2004-02-05

ActiveX and .NET are very different things, so the comparison isn't all that accurate... ...however, for those who seem to think Gnome is "ahead" and don't see how amazing this announcement is, I feel the need to point out that: 1) .NET was designed to be more platform-independent. ActiveX is based on low-level MS API calls, many of which are un-documented or poorly documented. So, the ActiveX stuff is harder to implement. 2) .NET is extremely new and has very few uses in current Windows versions. ActiveX is everywhere, and every time a Linux product expands support for ActiveX, it is taking a major step in compatability, far more than any .NET project will offer.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Justin - 2001-07-10

Wow, this would be really nice for streaming video plugins. Windows Media Player works under WINE already, so maybe the browser plugin does too? Can't wait to go home today and mess around!

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - craig - 2001-07-10

Geeze i'm becomeing more and more impressed with kde everyday. Much better than announceing what your going to do next year!! Craig

grow up - Joe - 2001-07-12

this was a 20 minute hack on Konqueror's part, WINE did the real work of getting ActiveX working on linux. so why stoke the stupid desktop war?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Neil Stevens - 2001-07-10

Andreas, Malte, Nikolas: Don't take this personally, but I just have to say this. I find this article insulting. <ul> <li>(Assuming for a minute that this is a good thing to have) It insults our non-ia32 users. Wine is not portable. To say that this helps Konqueror, and makes Konqueror the best browser on any platform, when this will only run on a few select platforms of KDE, dismisses all those users. Does Wine even run on all of the ia32 OSes that KDE runs on?</li> <li>It insults our memory and intelligence. For the longest time we've been told over and over how wonderful KParts are. From the <a href="http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-2.0.html">KDE 2.0 press release</a>: <blockquote>KDE 2: The K Desktop Environment. Konqueror is KDE 2's next-generation web browser, file manager and document viewer. Widely heralded as a technological break-through for the Linux desktop, the standards-compliant Konqueror has a component-based architecture which combines the features and functionality of Internet Explorer®/Netscape Communicator® and Windows Explorer®. Konqueror will support the full gamut of current Internet technologies, including JavaScript, Java®, HTML 4.0, CSS-1 and -2 (Cascading Style Sheets), SSL (Secure Socket Layer for secure communications) and Netscape Communicator® plug-ins (for playing FlashTM, RealAudioTM, RealVideoTM and similar technologies). The great bulk of this technology is already in place and functional for KDE 2.0.</blockquote> So back in October, we were led to believe that KParts are the "next generation," as they are what Konqueror is based on. What changed? Why is suddenly ActiveX a great "obstacle" removed, and a "shot in the arm" for the browser? Is ActiveX superior to KParts? What obstacles were in front of us before? And why couldn't they be removed in the KDE way - using our libraries, following our UI standards, and using Free Software licenses?</li> <li>Lastly, this article attempts to speak for the reader in ways I think are unfounded. How can things like the Shockwave player be "popular," when there was no way to run them on Unix before now? Or is it implied that all KDE users are Windows users, or ex-Windows users?</li></ul> I see nothing wrong a developer for writing what he needs, and then sharing the results. I myself have an app in KDE that relies upon AOL servers. What I do think is wrong is when an article under the name of the head of the KDE League, on a site in the kde.org domain, makes these kind of assertions and implications about KDE and its users. Not everyone likes Windows, uses Windows, needs Windows, can run Windows, or even knows what runs on Windows these days. To portray the KDE community, and KDE apps, as aspiring to be Windows, is insulting.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Matt - 2001-07-10

I wouldnt wory about that description of KDE2, kparts etc. It's a press release, and probably designed to be sent out to all sorts of journalists who might have no idea what KDE really it. It's standard practice to give background information about a company/product, inside a press release. As for why they've chosen to use wine etc to implement activeX support, rather than with KDE libraries, UI standards etc. I suppose there's nothing (theoretically :P) stopping any one of us from doing so. Don't criticise their hard work since they're giving it away for free (even is it's not the ideal approach).

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Actually WINE-based support is VERY important, AFAIK. Unless I've missed something, ActiveX is very platform specific, so implementing ActiveX API's using KDE libraries wouldn't do any good unless someone released an ActiveX control for Linux. And, if they did that, why not just release a KPart? -Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Justin - 2001-07-10

By "any" platform, I believe it was meant that regardless of platform, Konq is the best browser. They did not mean Konq runs on all platforms... I mean, heck, they were comparing Konq against Netscape and even IE. It's not exactly fair playing ground since they all have various levels of portability. But if you could pick one that would work on your platform (defying all laws of portability), they are saying you would want Konqueror. Also, the majority of KDE users are Linux users. Many times you will see people speak of "Linux is now better" this-or-that because of something KDE-related. No one is forgetting about non-x86 users (at least programmers aren't) so there is nothing to worry about. WINE has always been x86-only. Now Konq can use it for ActiveX on x86 platforms. Could KDE come up with their own ActiveX type thing? Sure, although portability would be difficult (delivery system could send source and compile on target machine?). Does it mean having an x86-only alternative using WINE is a bad thing? I don't think so. I sort of see your point, but I believe you overreacted a little. -Justin

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - not me - 2001-07-10

>It insults our non-ia32 users. Wine is not portable. Okay. First of all, you're taking this _way_ too seriously. Nobody's insulting anyone here. Now that you've cooled off a bit, think. A feature that benefits some people makes Konqueror a better browser. Unfortunately, that feature is not available to you; however, that doesn't make the feature bad or detrimental to Konqueror, or insulting to you. Also, check out Bochs. (http://bochs.sourceforge.net) There is hope! >Is ActiveX superior to KParts? ActiveX is a different solution to a different problem. No one is suggesting giving up KParts now that we have ActiveX! The _only_ reason we want ActiveX is to be able to watch Shockwave movies and Sorensen/Windows Media encoded videos. We would prefer a *nix native solution if one came along, but we do what we can with what we've got. >How can things like the Shockwave player be "popular," when there was no way to run them on Unix before now? Shockwave is popular *on the Net*! Not, obviously, for KDE users, as they couldn't access it. Duh! >To portray the KDE community, and KDE apps, as aspiring to be Windows, is insulting. We don't aspire to be Windows. We aspire to watch Shockwave/Sorensen/WMP web content as Microsoft goes down in flames! Unfortunately, I fear IHBT. Oh well, it was fun actually :-)

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Neil Stevens - 2001-07-10

> as Microsoft goes down in flames! That kind of obsession with Windows would harm KDE, if the development community engaged in it. KDE is no more in competition with Windows than it is with GNOME. Some organizations that package KDE may be, but KDE itself isn't. KDE just ships code. No more, no less.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - not me - 2001-07-10

Sorry, I was kind of kidding about that. I certainly don't really believe Microsoft is going to go down in flames on KDE's part. They've got billions of $ to burn, and if KDE really starts to threaten them, they will just spend their money on making Windows better until it's better than KDE. They could do that for years without selling a single copy of Windows, with the cash hoard they've built up. Heck, they could probably do it on the interest on Bill Gates' personal fortune alone. So Microsoft isn't going down in flames anytime soon (unless the DOJ has a major change of opinion), and it's probably a good thing anyway.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Hey notme, Thanks for pointing out Bochs! I certainly appreciate it! -Tim (the Bochs web admin)

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Dre - 2001-07-10

> Andreas, Malte, Nikolas: Don't take this personally, but I just have > to say this. I find this article insulting. I'm sorry to hear that. > (Assuming for a minute that this is a good thing to have) > It insults our non-ia32 users. Wine is not portable. To say that this > helps Konqueror, and makes Konqueror the best browser on any platform, The article does not claim that this support alone makes Konqueror the best browser, but it does fill a current void on the Linux/Unix desktop which made it difficult for Linux/Unix browsers to compete with browsers on other platforms. This failure is not due to any lack of talent on the part of KDE developers but to the fact that certain very popular technologies on the Web are not available for Linux natively. Also the intent clearly was not to insult anyone. Though I respect your feelings, I do not see how it insults anybody. Also as a reality check the fact is that KDE should not limit itself to things available for all possible platforms, particularly when something relies on a large Open Source project that developers of other platforms are free to port over if they deem it important enough. Not to mention that clearly the vast majority of PC users are on Intel platforms. > when this will only run on a few select platforms of KDE, dismisses > all those users. Does Wine even run on all of the ia32 OSes that KDE > runs on? I don't know, but it runs at least on Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris. If it runs on FreeBSD and Solaris I presume it would not be that hard to port it to other BSDs and their derivatives, should someone be so inclined. After all, WINE has an X-type license. > It insults our memory and intelligence. For the longest > time we've been told over and over how wonderful KParts are. From the > KDE 2.0 press release: > [ ... ] > > So back in October, we were led to believe that KParts > are the "next generation," as they are what Konqueror is based on. > What changed? Why is suddenly ActiveX a great "obstacle" removed, > and a "shot in the arm" for the browser? Is ActiveX superior to KParts? Of course not. ActiveX is a great feature for permitting Konqueror to go mainstream and for permitting users to achieve greater enjoyment from their surfing. Remember that "it's the apps, stupid". Having a compatability layer suddenly makes a lot of Web "apps" available to KDE users that were not available before. I think our disagreement may be that the article considers all PC users and you are considering current KDE users? > What obstacles were in front of us before? And why couldn't they be > removed in the KDE way - using our libraries, following our UI > standards, and using Free Software licenses? If an Open Source Shockwave Flash Player were available, or an Open Source Robinson codec, I would agree with you. But they currently are not, and with reaktivate, KDE users will no longer be deprived of the web sites that feature those technologies until they become available natively. > Lastly, this article attempts to speak for the reader in > ways I think are unfounded. How can things like the Shockwave player > be "popular," when there was no way to run them on Unix before now? People I have conversed with have universally praised Shockwave as a great technology. According to Macromedia's website, over 200 million users have Shockwave installed. If that's not popular, I don't know what is! In any case it is not speaking for the reader, it is speaking about the Web -- i.e., Shockwave is popular on the Web. I hope that clarifies the point being made. [ ... ] > Not everyone likes Windows, uses Windows, > needs Windows, can run Windows, or even knows what runs on Windows > these days. To portray the KDE community, and KDE apps, as aspiring > to be Windows, is insulting. Again, I am sorry you were upset by the article. Please rest assured that nothing of the sort was intended. I think if you read the article with the picture of Konqueror/KDE going into the mainstream in mind you might view it differently. In fact I'm not sure what the article has to do with Windows, except to say that technologies previously available only on Windows (and maybe the Mac) are now available for the great bulk of Linux/Unix users. I think that's good news for KDE and Open Source.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Neil Stevens - 2001-07-10

> Also as a reality check the fact is that > KDE should not limit itself to things > available for all possible platforms > particularly when something relies on a > large Open Source project that developers of > other platforms are free to port over if > they deem it important enough. Of course people are free to use KDE in platform-specific ways, or in proprietary ways. That doesn't mean that the KDE news site, in the kde.org domain, has to act like they're a fundamental breakthrough for an open source project. > After all, WINE has an X-type license. Is Shockwave, or any of the other apps you suggest are useful with ActiveX, available under that license? You say that ActiveX is a shot in the arm for Konqueror. Obviously you mean that it's the use of these "popular" ActiveX components that is a great boon for Konqueror's users. If these non-free components are what you are celebrating, then this is a break from normal KDE practice - to get things working with free software. > Remember that "it's the apps, stupid". Paraphrasing the Clinton/Gore '92 campaign doesn't win any points with me. :-) But let's look at what that expression means. By saying "It's the economy, stupid," the Clinton campaign meant that the economy was the number one, most important thing in the campaign, and in the country. All other issues were beneath it, and could be compromised for it. So, by saying "It's the apps, stupid," you're saying that just having these apps is more important than any other aspect of KDE, and that any other aspect of KDE can be compromised for having more apps. As I understand it, one of the fundamental aspects of KDE is that the apps are free. By championing ActiveX, you're implicitly putting it over all existing free KParts, and implying that freedom is not a valuable attribute for users of software to have. Is that what you mean to do, compromise freedom for more apps and users? Where would we be if, instead of having our own open source html renderer, we instead added hooks to use some internet explorer DLL to do the rendering? Or if aRts were as reliant upon non-free software as xanim? Be careful what you paraphrase. > If an Open Source Shockwave Flash Player were > available, or an Open Source Robinson codec, > I would agree with you. But they currently > are not, and with reaktivate, KDE users will > no longer be deprived of the web sites that > feature those technologies until they become > available natively. Well, plenty will be. Every KDE user not on ia32 will be. Do you mean to say that Konqueror is not a superior browswer on any platform where Wine isn't supported, because people there lack the ability to run these non-free apps? > According to Macromedia's website, over 200 > million users have Shockwave installed. If > that's not popular, I don't know what is! But what is your audience here? KDE Users and Developers, or "the web" in general? My impression of dot.kde.org was the former. Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too. Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org if someone ported the latest MS Office run under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here? > I think if you read the article > with the picture of Konqueror/KDE going > into the mainstream in mind > you might view it differently. What do you mean by mainstream? Mainstream Windows users? Are these "mainstream" users more important to you than the principles that got KDE where it is today? You know, at first, I thought the article was exaggerated in tone just in awe of Malte's and Niko's work. Now you've made it clear to me that there was no exaggeration. Your goalfor KDE seems to be that KDE should be used by as many people as possible, even if making that happen means running as much propreitary Windows software as possible. > In fact I'm not sure what the article > has to do with Windows, except to say that > technologies previously available only on > Windows (and maybe the Mac) are now available > for the great bulk of Linux/Unix users. Er, FYI, Wine is the "Wine Is Not an Emulator" project: a port of the Win32 API to unix, and a system for running Windows binaries under unix. This has everything to do with bringing proprietary Windows software to KDE.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Jon - 2001-07-10

You seem to dislike the idea of any closed source programs running in Linux. Well, you're in the minority. You said: Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too. Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org if someone ported the latest MS Office run under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here? I say: I would love it if Microsoft Office (97 in my case) ran absolutely flawlessly under Linux (it runs off and on under Wine, but it would be lovely to have a native Linux port). Office is one of the jewels in the Microsoft crown, and my favorite word processor... although my favorite version was Word 2 (I've got the 4 floppies it came on sitting around somewhere :). However, I still find KOffice very exciting, not because it will replease Microsoft Office, but because it increases choice, variety and competitiveness. No-one has made any attack, actual or implied, on KParts. After all your long and rambling posts, I'm still not sure why you think there has been. Supporting ActiveX is exactly the same (and implemented in a similar, if more complicated way), to supporting closed Netscape plugins -- do you think that *they* are a threat to KParts as well?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - unterbear - 2001-07-11

> Are these "mainstream" users more important >to you than the principles that got KDE where it >is today? hahahaha... see the flamewar that spawned gnome for some perspective on that statement. It seems to me that KDE has always been about providing a Free desktop environment for *nix, even if that means using a few tools that aren't quite as "free" as some of the more rabid zealots would like them to be.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

> Of course people are free to use KDE in > platform-specific ways, or in proprietary > ways. That doesn't mean that the KDE news > site, in the kde.org domain, has to act like > they're a fundamental breakthrough for an > open source project. Okay - let me understand what you are saying. If a program only works for 90%+ of all computers users, but forgets those that use sizably less popular architectures, it shouldn't be posted? C'mon! The place were a non-IA architecture doesn't reign as the market leader is the embedded space. Does this mean since the majority of PC users don't use KDE at all, that no KDE news should ever be posted anywhere? > > After all, WINE has an X-type license. > Is Shockwave, or any of the other apps you > suggest are useful with ActiveX, available > under that license? You don't seem to understand the point. If the ActiveX controls where open source this wouldn't be needed. However, if KDE stubbornly refused the fact that most people want to be able to have Shockwave, et. al., we would have a ticket to a failing platform. KDE developers understand that the key to making KDE a success is to support all major technologies. Like it or not, ActiveX is a major technology. Tell me, most Netscape Plugins aren't open source either, does that mean that Konqi shouldn't have Netscape Plugin support? > You say that ActiveX is a shot in the arm for > Konqueror. Obviously you mean that it's the > use of these "popular" ActiveX components > that is a great boon for Konqueror's users. > If these non-free components are what you > are celebrating, then this is a break from > normal KDE practice - to get things working > with free software. No it isn't. Everything is working with free software. However, we can't get the Shockwave source, so what do we do? The KDE Developers understand they can't stick their heads in the sand and pretend that the majority of PC users expect and demand supprot for things like Shockwave. Until Linux/KDE commands enough market share that major developers support it, it must be accepted that KDE needs to develop "compatibility modules." > > Remember that "it's the apps, stupid". [clip] > But let's look at what that expression > means. By saying "It's the economy, stupid," > the Clinton campaign meant that the economy > was the number one, most important thing in > the campaign, and in the country. All other > issues were beneath it, and could be > compromised for it. Exactly. Without apps, what exactly does KDE do for us? Apps are everything in a computer. > championing ActiveX, you're implicitly > putting it over all existing free KParts, > and implying that freedom is not a valuable > attribute for users of software to have. Is > that what you mean to do, compromise freedom > for more apps and users? You are blowing this way out of proportion. No one said that KParts should take second fiddle to ActiveX. You seem to be interperating this as they are being in ActiveX for replacing the way of embedding things like KHTML. However, you seem to miss that ActiveX also serves a similar purpose to Netscape Plugins. KDE didn't push aside KParts by supporting Netscape Plugins, neither do they push it aside by supporting ActiveX. That's like saying supporting a new type of printer is pushing aside truetype font support. > Where would we be if, instead of having our > own open source html renderer, we instead > added hooks to use some internet explorer > DLL to do the rendering? Or if aRts were as > reliant upon non-free software as xanim? Now you seem to be comparing supporting proprietary technology with making it part of key systems in KDE. ActiveX support isn't proprietary, the stuff that runs on it often is. The same goes for WINE itself. WINE isn't proprietary, but it supports many proprietary apps. Their is a difference between being proprietary, and supporting such. > Well, plenty will be. Every KDE user not on > ia32 will be. Do you mean to say that Okay, if you go by Linux sales statistics (and Linux is by far the most popular desktop *NIX), I'm pretty sure you would see that less than 1 in 50 Linux users is a non-IA32 Linux user. Let's face it, it doesn't make sense to cater to the 1, and ignore the 49. > Konqueror is not a superior browswer on any > platform where Wine isn't supported, because > people there lack the ability to run these > non-free apps? No. But it makes KDE EVEN better because this is a major internet technology that can't just be replaces with a OSS clone. If you don't like that most ActiveX controls are non-free, go make an OSS ActiveX control for yourself. > But what is your audience here? KDE Users > and Developers, or "the web" in general? My > impression of dot.kde.org was the former. Well according to the article it simply said "popular," which would mean "overall," not just for those that read the dot. Most KDE users probably would like to use "overall popular" technologies simply because they run into sites that require them. > Microsoft Office has a bunch of users, too. > Would you make a thrilled post to dot.kde.org > if someone ported the latest MS Office run > under KDE, via wine? Would you call it the > removal of a great obstacle, and dismissed > KOffice as you've dismissed KParts here? Neil, you just don't seem to get the point of the whole thing. What they are saying is stuff that probably will never (at least for a long time) be ported to a KPart can now be used. Macromedia IS NOT GOING to make a KPart (AFAIK), because there simply isn't the demand yet. Like I keep saying, it's just like netscape plugins. Now, you go back to apps again. ActiveX is a technology, KOffice is an application. ActiveX is not proprietary itself, MS Office is. You can't replace all of the ActiveX controls, because you would get your pants sued off buy the companies that own the patents on the technology. You can clone MS Office functionality because no one owns the rights to the idea of an "office suite." > What do you mean by mainstream? Mainstream > Windows users? Are these "mainstream" users > more important to you than the principles > that got KDE where it is today? Yes. If KDE doesn't care about mainstream users, you can pretty much give up on KDE becoming mainsteam itself. Do you want Linux to become another Amiga, or GEM, or GeoWorks, or even Apple? NO! We want Linux and KDE to be a success - thus we shouldn't follow ill-fated or unsuccessful company's ideas. > You know, at first, I thought the article was > exaggerated in tone just in awe of Malte's > and Niko's work. Now you've made it clear to > me that there was no exaggeration. Nor should it be, it is absolutely amazing, and great! > Your goalfor KDE seems to be that KDE should > be used by as many people as possible, even > if making that happen means running as much > propreitary Windows software as possible. Somethings may never be open source. Will Macromedia make Shockwave open? I don't think so. Will Apple make QuickTime open? Yeah right. Still users need support for this popular internet standards. How do you expect to accomplish this otherwise? IN CONCLUSION: You seem to be only seeing this as that KDE might support some proprietary software. Does this mean that KDE shouldn't support Netscape Plugins? Does this mean we should make it difficult for Opera Software to make the Opera browser? Does that mean all of KDE's libraries should be switched from BSD and LGPL licenses to the GPL so only open source software should be written? NO! KDE will remain open, but that doesn't mean it can't support non-open programs, because THEY ARE NEEDED by MANY, if not MOST people. -Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Troy Unrau - 2001-07-10

Errmmm... just to point something out... KParts and ActiveX are two totally different animals. In fact, I'd wager that the the ActiveX implementation in kde is a Kpart. A Kpart is many times more powerful than activex and is used for embedding apps one within another regardless of what apps are being embedded where. ActiveX (afaik) is used principly for embedding web content plugins in MSIE. Think of kde's implementation as a wrapper for activex controls to be used as kparts within konq. TRoy

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Neil Stevens - 2001-07-10

Then, instead of swooning over ActiveX plugins being available, why not just write KParts for the desired functionality?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - ik - 2001-07-10

no. YOU do it. good luck trying to implement opensource sorenson codecs, shockwave player, windows media player compatible stuff .... now you ask those people who develop'd reaktivate to do just the same in 3 years more time (no, more) with legal risks because just ... you got 'insulted' by activex, not even because its bad. Reaktivate is there for compatibility reasons. It makes technology available to more people (not to all people because it ain't possible - but konqueror is not there for blind users either)

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - anonymous - 2001-07-10

That's just what they did. The wrote a kpart component which allows graphical embedding of COM components. The fact that the backend is actually implemented using wine is an implementation detail. An important one, though, of course, as it's the only possible way to get stuff like shockwave running. But still for KDE it just means that there is a component available to which you can pass a URL to a shockwave file and it does the job. How performant and stable the whole thing is in the reality to the end-user still needs to be seen. But technically it's a very exciting thing and fun to implement/hack . (and fun is what counts when it comes to motivation in free software development) As it works, why not tell people about it? After all it's something completely new on linux (it's not that they just plugged in wine and it worked, they had to implement quite some stuff in wine itself and implement a good chunk of interfaces) . The fact that it runs only in x86 is a pity, but it's not their fault. Instead it's a design limitation of the underlying technology that simply can't be resolved. And given the fact that x86 is a popular KDE platform it's just a good reason to tell other KDE developers about this project.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - bg - 2001-07-10

man you're so dumb

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Maybe because the KDE developers don't have the time to rewrite Shockwave and Quicktime for KPart? Maybe because they can't afford the laywers when Apple comes down in one big swoop and sues the pants off of them for making anything even somewhat resembling the other "QT" without King Steven Jobs XIII for permission? -Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Metrol - 2001-07-10

I find this post insulting. It's exactly this kind of flame thrower silliness that builds up over time to cause some of the most talented developers to throw up their hands and just give up. I further hate the fact that I'm getting sucked into replying to such a troll. To your first point, the complaint you're getting at there should instead be directed to the Wine, not KDE folks. Unix applications are supposed to build from other widely supported libraries, and Wine certainly fits that description. Second point: KParts is for connecting information paths within KDE applications. Where exactly do you get the notion that ActiveX is somehow to be used to fit that role? I can only assume that you decided to make that up as you went rolling along. Last point: I don't believe that there are 2 billion Chinese in the world, as none of them are in my house at the moment. That's the logical equivalent to your suggestion that Shockwave isn't a popular technology. It's this kind of mindless venom that does far more harm to open source software than anything Microsoft's PR department can come up with. Browser plug-in support is a huge hole for the *nix desktop, and these guys are well on the way of filling it. On top of that, they did so in a way that both stays true to the GPL, and the proprietary licenses of the plug-in creators. This is an accomplishment worthy of high praise, yet here I am instead responding to a troll.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Jelmer Feenstra - 2001-07-10

Well said !

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Malte - 2001-07-10

For the longest time we've been told over and over how wonderful KParts are. So back in October, we were led to believe that KParts are the "next generation," as they are what Konqueror is based on. What changed? Why is suddenly ActiveX a great "obstacle" removed, and a "shot in the arm" for the browser? Is ActiveX superior to KParts? What obstacles were in front of us before? And why couldn't they be removed in the KDE way - using our libraries, following our UI standards, and using Free Software licenses? This is a complete misunderstanding. ActiveX does in no way replace KParts, those controls like Shockwave are not provided by reaktivate, they are used by it. You obviously didn't bother to have a look at the code before assuming it's some kind of KParts "replacement". If you did, you would have noticed that reaktivate is a KPart.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Your argument sounds as if the following are true - (1) Non-Intel platforms are the most popular, and (2) Linux/UNIX has more market share than Windows. However, neither of these are true, and so the reality is we must recognize that. 1.) Supporting this as a big deal doesn't mean that no one cares about non-x86 users, it simply means that the x86 is the most popular platform, and thus if something works on x86, it works for most of us. 2.) Supporting ActiveX doesn't mean that it is superior to KParts, but when was the last time any major software developer released a browser plugin in KPart format. The KDE team obviously recognizes that the important thing is to support as many technologies as possible to insure support of most of the technologies we could ever want (just like they have made Konqi compatible with "broken" [read: MSIE-friendly] pages). 3.) Why do they call Shockwave popular? Because it is. Support for Unices doesn't make or break a product. Even support for Mac OS does very little. Support for Windows means everything right now. So, if a program is popular in Windows (i.e. 87% or so of the computer world), that translates as just plain popular. -Tim

What a sour puss! Well Done KDE! - Pat Jones - 2001-10-24

Making Konqueror as feature packed as any M$ offering is what the public wants! To suggest otherwise is to relegate the best chance Linux has to become accepted and USED to the ash heap of past failures. I absolutely abhor Microsoft's marketing practices, their history of poorly cobbled together code and the poor value their products have represented. The public wants and needs an alternative that does what M$ products promised and deliver so poorly. And we want it without all the nonsense that comes from living with an agressive monopoly. Like it or not, Windows has set the standard for the kinds of features users want. If KDE and Konqueror are to succeed, they need to satisfy those needs the public now has and make the features accessible, affordable and an attractive alternative. Well done KDE!

su nobody - not me - 2001-07-10

To get rid of the security problems, why couldn't all ActiveX controls be run as a harmless user (such as the user nobody on most systems, who has no access to files)? It would seem pretty easy to implement. Does Shockwave really need disk access to function? Even if it does, it could be totally restricted to a single directory. You could even chroot it. Linux's security system is meant to prevent security fiascoes like ActiveX - we should use it! P.S. I hate to be a wet blanket, but this is just one less reason for companies to make Linux native versions of their plugins. Oh well, if it helps Linux become more popular, I guess it'll be beneficial. If Linux becomes dominant, more plugins will become native anyway :-)

Re: su nobody - KDE User - 2001-07-10

Brilliant idea! Make your reaktivate binary setuid nobody and chrooted /dev/null!

Re: su nobody - cylab - 2001-07-10

why not start reaktivate in a dedicated wine-system as a sandbox. best would be a template, from wich the actual wine-system will be copied for every activex control. this way the control could do whatever it wants with this system... just kill the wine instance and you have a clean system again... am i wrong ?

Re: su nobody - Malte - 2001-07-10

I'm not too sure if su nobody is easily possible given that usually nobody has no write access at all (apart from /tmp maybe). We need to install some files that we download and need to change WINE's registry. Running the whole thing chrooted is planned, though. However, it requires quite a few design changes. Stay tuned.

Re: su nobody - Roger Oberholtzer - 2001-07-16

I agree that it would be better if 'native' binaries were made. But, think of the justice in running DLLs intended for a different platform, but more securely. Would people consifer running Linux so they could run MS DLLs with greater peace of mind?

Re: su nobody - chris c - 2003-01-20

You might want to check Fred Mclains webpage on the continueing security hole that is ActiveX. He has gotten to mimic a signed security certificate..... there are a lot of horrible things that can be done with that black magic....

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Nikolas Zimmermann - 2001-07-10

Wow you are taking this really too serious :) Our goal isn't the dropping of KParts etc.. We just want to help companys, which migrate to Linux (_from Windows_), to be able to use their self-made ActiveX controls for the time they have no money to rewrite everything. You may know that it costs _really_ much if you migrate to Linux for the first time. Companys relied on Microsoft's technologies (like ActiveX) and we want to help them. Of course having everything native is the coolest thing. Shockwave, Flash and Livepics are _JUST_ testing controls. I have no self-build activex control to test, that's why we take these ones. So don't flame please, this is as always done for fun. (Imagine this cool stuff, we are mixing Qt and Windows stuff, throught winelib, in _one_ app). It's just cool stuff, not more.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - KDE User - 2001-07-10

I for one would like to thank you for your beautiful work! Despite the flames, you have done some pioneering work and taken KDE/Konqi to a whole new level, even if it only shows what kinds of wonderful things can be done with KDE or if it only gets people like Neil off their collective rear-ends to implement native plugins for Konqueror. Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! We are impressed!

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Neil Stevens - 2001-07-10

My problem isn't with your code. You wrote what you wanted, and shared it with the world. That's a fine thing. My problem is that Dre is describing the lack of support for propreitary plugins for Windows as a major lack of Konqueror until now, in contrast with the KDE community's general pleasure with Konqueror until now. Am I taking this seriously? You'd better believe it. By putting this site in the kde.org, domain, dot.kde.org represents KDE. I've put a lot of time in to KDE, and I care about it. I don't want it led astray.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Aaron J. Seigo - 2001-07-10

well, for a _lot_ of folks not having ActiveX controls is a big thing. this wasn't a Konqueror weakness, it was a Linux/Unix weakness. what they have done is build as good a bridge as is possible today (which means x86 only right now) for technologies that were, until now, bound to Windows. without this bridge, many users would also remain bound to Windows. this is all about making lemon-aide out of lemons for the short term and opening the way for more people to enjoy the Freedom of KDE. it is one piece among many of Konqi's abilities and compatibilities that no other linux/unix web browser can measure up to. and that, if you calmly re-read the press release, is exactly what was said.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Guillaume Laurent - 2001-07-10

> I've put a lot of time in to KDE, and I care about it. Then I suggest you take a vacation or something and return when the whole of your brain is back up, because right now you're not helping at all, to say the least. Your take on this is nothing less than appalling.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Neil - tell me, if Konqi didn't support any Netscape plugins, only displayed pages that were W3C compliant to the letter, and wouldn't open pages served from non-open source web servers, would you use it? The point with ActiveX isn't saying that KDE's native technologies aren't better, it's simply admitting the reality that KDE's technologies aren't being embraced by major companies yet, and for users to migrate to Linux, they need these technologies now. I might note that many programs that have major lacks are still enjoyed. I really like KMail, Kicker, XMMS, Konqueror, KNewsTicker, etc. but still there are thing I would love to see supported that aren't _yet_. That doesn't mean I am not pleased with them, I simply notice they lack certain things I would like. I might note Konqueror has JavaScript problems too, but if Dre announced that they had all been fixed, that wouldn't mean that the KDE Project was really saying "Until now, Konqi really stinked like week old fish!" -Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - AB - 2001-07-12

It's always like this. If any product is "criticized" by its own makers, you can bet there is a newer version of that product which solves those problems.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Andy Fawcett - 2001-07-10

Okay, here is my 'take' on this subject... Technically, I like what has been done here. I think the guys have done a wonderful job in a short space of time. And I agree with WildFox's sentiments that it *could* help companies migrate over to KDE. It's a shame that the implementation isn't portable, but with the absence of file formats and designs, it is going to be nearly impossible to implement this on a lot of operating systems :( As a final point, I don't see it as a bad thing to embrace older/other technology with KDE. If work such as this allows (some) KDE users to access information that they couldn't before, surely that is a good thing? Sure, it would be better if *all* KDE users could use this technology, but 'some' has to be better than 'none'. Just my 0.02 euros Tap

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Daniel - 2001-07-10

Excuse my offtopic, but i dont know where i can post my opinion about one thing in KDE. I really dont like the minimized KDE panel version. If we watch the Gnome panel or Windows panel minimized version (see the screenshots), we see that the KDE panel is less beautiful :-) than minimized gnome panel (or even Windows!).I think the problem are the small icons. I like the standar KDE panel size, but i like a lot the minimized version, because we have more space to work with the apps, but the look of actual panel (small version) is horrible! :-) And i want to say that KDE team are doing the best job i have ever seen! ... byes! :-) I hope this post will be readen by a KDE look coder team.

Just make a Gnome icon theme - Moritz Moeller-Herrmann - 2001-07-10

I think there even exists one. Personally I hate the blurred look of them, a real strain on the eyes as your brain tries to focus them. The MS and the KDE icons are better, because they have a clear shape much more visible. KDE icons = symbols (cartoonish, like traffic signs) Gnome icons = pictures (prettier, but harder to discern) Apart from your dislike for the work of the KDE artists what else is the problem?

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - wim bakker - 2001-07-10

Quote:>Apart from your dislike for the work of the KDE artists what else is the problem? I do not dislike the work of the artist team but I do have a what else problem. Why is the cvs server for such a long time unconnectable after a (beta or other)release?. Now I can't try out this new feature (reactivate). Is there a need for more mirrors?? Would it help if there was created one more??

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - Lenny - 2001-07-10

>Why is the cvs server for such a long time unconnectable after a (beta or other)release?. I read somewhere that it's also the ftp-server. After releases it gets slashdotted so they try to decrease load by shutting down cvs.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - Bryan Feeney - 2001-07-10

I think he meant that the panel ends up looking *very* cluttered. He kinda has a point. Although I would say, if you like the KPanel looking like as neat as the Windows one, you can remove the Logout/Lock panel and the pager and make the taskbar work for all desktops. Then you'd end up with something very similar. However if he want sstuff to disappear and reappear when you change size, I don't think anyones going to do it. It's illogical and unexpected and most users wouldn't be too pleased.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - will - 2001-07-10

Thats right - its too cluttered. It is almost strange how little need to be done to improve the appearence in many cases - just *remove* things (or economize and make consistent the stylistic elements - colors, textures, styles, lines etc as much as possible for better effect) - but at the same time it seems to be so hard get it done. By the way: the KDE "start" icon should be changed. It a. isn't simple enough to be an icon b. doesn't offer a clue (ie. a visual metaphor) for its function. Imagine asking a user "What do you think clicking on this symbol would achieve?".

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - Kmax - 2001-07-11

> b. doesn't offer a clue (ie. a visual > metaphor) for its function. Imagine asking a > user "What do you think clicking on this > symbol would achieve?". What would you suggest, a button that says "Start" that I must click to Stop my operating system. That's intuitive. C'mon, it is a desktop paradigm that has basically become a standard. Anyone that has used a computer, or even one that hasn't, will learn in two seconds that to run a program, start help, etc. you click the K button--just like they would learn the same thing the first time they used Gnome(footprint button I think), Windows, or a Mac.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - will - 2001-07-11

Well, IMO usability is more important than what is politically correct, so - yes - "start" would be better. But there are probably many other ways to achieve this. Gnome's footprint provides a visual metaphor and is in theory better - although I don't think it well enough drawn to make the point. Corel used a globe, which is also not entirely good, but is also at least a better attempt. You are saying that everyone knows anyway so it isn't needed. A well executed icon would make the interface more inviting, intuitive and professional. It makes a difference and would be recognized as making a difference. To avoid a better solution just because you don't have to is amateurship and slacker mentality.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - not me - 2001-07-12

>Gnome's footprint provides a visual metaphor >Corel used a globe, which is also not entirely good, but is also at least a better attempt. I'm sorry, I don't see how a foot or a globe is a better metaphor than a gear with a "K." They are all the repsective logos of the organizations that produced the software. None of them have anything to do with launching programs/logging out.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - will - 2001-07-13

>I'm sorry, I don't see how a foot or a globe is a better metaphor than a gear with a "K." They are all the repsective logos of the organizations that produced the software. None of them have anything to do with launching programs/logging out. :) I take it that the footprint indicates "where you want to go" - you metaphorically "walk a path" when you navigate the menus to start a program. I guess this is what the Gnome people had in mind when they made it. The globe is actually a similar metaphor as well - think of the MS-slogan "where do you want to go today". The globe indicates that you have the world at disposal (presumably by bookmarks etc) and intentionally blurring the distincticion between the internal workings of the computer and what you do out there on the net (after all "the network is the computer". A globe isn't a logo for Corel is it? Still, they both fail the test of asking the user (not having this information beforehand) "what do you think pressing this icon would achive"? But MS "start" does not - which is by no means a trivial achievement.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - Hyd - 2007-11-08

Not gonna validate this guy? This sort of design mentality is just what we need to make things more accessible.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - All_troll_no_tech - 2001-07-11

It would be nice if workspaces panel could be removed. Many people (like myself) do not use more than one workspace and find the panel annoying. At some point (maybe when I am done with my thesis) I was planning to customize kwin to my liking (coding a theme allowing for no title bar and just a tab on the side, kinda like flwm and beos combined), and finally banishing the workspaces panel. But maybe someone has done or is doing those things?

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - not me - 2001-07-11

It's really easy to remove the desktop switcher - it's just like every other applet on the panel. Right-click the applet handle (the little thing to the left of the applet that you can move it with) and click "Remove." You hadn't discovered this?

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - All_troll_no_tech - 2001-07-12

No, I hadn't. I was trying to tell kwin to only have one workspace but it doesn't accept 1 for some reason.

Re: Just make a Gnome icon theme - Jamin P. Gray - 2001-07-13

The screenshot he attached is horrible. The Gnome icons do not look blurred like that on my system. http://dolinux.dyn.dhs.org/screenshots/2001_07_09_175145_shot.png http://dolinux.dyn.dhs.org/screenshots/2001_07_11_212426_shot.png

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Aaron J. Seigo - 2001-07-10

there are mailing lists for this sort of thing, both for users and for developers. visit kde.org to find them. as for your issues, what exactly don't you like about the small panel (you were rather vague)? you know that you can turn autohiding on, that you can remove the arrows, that you can apply themes that change the appearance of the panel, that you can rearrange/remove applets, turn on icon zooming, and more, right? also, if you post with an email addy you might get some good responses in that format.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Daniel - 2001-07-11

Sorry about my post if i could annoy somebody, but i was talking about the look&feel of the ICONS when you use the less size of the panel. If you see the screenshots, there is a big diference. I am not talking about to copy Windows or Gnome, only saying that both of them are a bit more beautiful than the KDE one (ONLY the small ICONS as you can see in the screenshots). This is only thing i dont like in KDE, because i always work with this panel size (then, i have more space to work with apps). This is the only thing i dont like. I like a lot KDE :-) ... Best regards

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - not me - 2001-07-11

Actually, I prefer the small KDE icons over the small GNOME icons shown there, I think they look much better. I also like the "icon zooming" feature. Looking at that comparison screenshot, (which BTW is very interesting :-) I notice that KDE spaces its icons farther apart than GNOME and Windows. I'm not sure if this is good or bad, it is sort of a tradeoff. The overall look of Kicker is rather cluttered, though. Perhaps "Fade out applet handles" should be on by default, and the Logout and Lock buttons off? The left hide button should _definitely_ be off by default (I think it is now in CVS). And that "LCD" clock has got to go. What LCD has a brown and beige striped backround anyway? I much prefer the Fuzzy clock, it rocks!

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - anonymous - 2002-08-09

Icon zooming is a cool idea, but... there is no transition when the zooming happens. It goes right from small to medium or medium to large icons and that looks pretty jerky. Mac OSX does a much better job.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - anonymous - 2002-08-09

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - KDE User - 2001-07-10

Erm, what's the problem? To me, the top panel there is very poorly done. Those lines in the background at the left and right are overly annoying, there are too many little, hard to make out icons. The second one is nice, because you can see the icons, the background isn't half some wacky pixmap. Plus it's very easy to move things around on it (ie, put the tray on the left, etc). The bottom one is about like the second one, with way fewer features. All in all, my preference is 2, 3, 1, in that order. So please realize that what you find nice looking, others may not.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Tackat - 2001-07-10

> I think the problem are the small icons. Actually it would be nice to have Alphablending for small icons and toolbar icons. This would improve the overall appearance of KDE quite a bit. Also I agree that the application icons need quite a bit of an overhaul. I hope that we'll have some time for this task before KDE 2.2. Pleasing the people who prefer a simple 2-D shape and something that looks sharp as well as those people who like a rather blurry 3-D shape with a rather photorealistic look is difficult as you might see from the replies. Looking at the most recent Nautilus-icons it seems to me that Gnome also heads into the 2D-ish direction now with rather clear shapes just like KDE already does. The reason is better usability - and usability is of course always more important than eyecandy in the eyes of the beholder. If you want to help just send your improved icons to icons@kde.org or add alphablending to the kdelibs-code for small icons and toolbar-icons. Also note that we'll get RENDER-supported Alphablending "for free" as soon as we move to QT 3.0. Greetings, Tackat

doesn't look bad to me... - ralian - 2001-07-12

personally, I find kde2 to be a lot sleeker and polished than either windows or gnome, and the panel looks pretty good too, imho

Re: doesn't look bad to me... - AB - 2001-07-12

Agreed. 2D icons are better than blurry 3D ones.

Konqueror sucks - Anonymous Coward - 2001-07-10

...it seems to me Konqueror is fast becoming the best browser on any platform. Konqueror is too slow, too ugly, have too problems with strange html and definitively its not the best browser... I think it will be good to suport Mozilla QT port... Mozilla renders all pages without problems, and now it's engine it's fast enought (try moz 0.9.2 & galeon 0.11.1). There's another project, dillo, what is the fastest browser i've seen, and its growing a lot, everyday... GTK-only :(

Re: Konqueror sucks - Jeremy M. Jancsary - 2001-07-10

You _do_ realise that gtk+ is used by Mozilla only for drawing, right? IOW, there is no visible difference between gtk+ Mozilla and the Qt port.

Re: Konqueror sucks - craig - 2001-07-10

This guys just trying to be a cleaver troll. Everyone knows Konqueror is faster than that beast mozilla. Craig

Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - William Leese - 2001-07-10

not true, actually.. rendering wise that is. konqueror *is* slow on slow computers which seems to be because it shows content the moment it comes in instead of waiting a little causing the layout of a page to refresh many times.. taking a great deal of cycles and making konqueror completely unresponsive. mozilla on the otherhand, renders pages usually in one go causing it to actually be less processor intensive than konqueror. don't get me wrong, i love konqueror. i just won't use it because on my low end machines mozilla actually does a better job. throw away mozilla's achilles heel: the GUI and you have one hell of a browser (galeon). btw, does anyone know where i can find information on using konqueror with gecko as it's rendering engine?

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - Nobody - 2001-07-11

I guess it just needs to me smarter about it. Internet Explorer displays content as soon as it can too and that's probably the best browser right now.

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - not me - 2001-07-11

>Internet Explorer displays content as soon as it can too No it doesn't. IE doesn't display tables until they are fully downloaded, which can be a real pain on a modem connection loading a big slashdot page or something, because most of the entire page is one big table and so it won't display until it's all downloaded. It does this because it can't know what size the table's columns and rows will be until it gets every column and row downloaded. Konqueror displays tables as soon as they start downloading and adds new stuff as it comes in. This is good for sites like Slashdot, but on some sites it can cause the page to shuffle around in an annoying way as table widths change. Plus it takes more CPU time.

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - Erik - 2001-07-12

"Konqueror displays tables as soon as they start downloading and adds new stuff as it comes in. This is good for sites like Slashdot, but on some sites it can cause the page to shuffle around in an annoying way as table widths change. Plus it takes more CPU time." Please tell me that this can be disabled! It has annoyed the crap out of me all the time.

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - Lempiälä - 2003-11-09

You might be right, since IE is quite good. I use mozilla myself, but would use opera if it would not be not free. To sum it all together, there is no escape from the konquest of machines.

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - Aaron J. Seigo - 2001-07-11

if you haven't tried 2.2 yet you might notice that this behaviour has been modified recently so that it doesn't render as soon as it gets data but waits a bit to see if it gets more data shortly thereafter... basically it pauses... renders a bit... pauses... renders.. all the while geting data. i've noticed this cuts down on the rerendering quite a bit. another cause of slowness in konqi is that it doesn't pipeline HTTP requests. work on this matter seems to be at the "let's discuss how we should tackle this problem and start some early test development" stage.. hopefully 2.3 will address the pipelining/multiple slave issues in a comprehensive manner. (kiotar also suffers from this)

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - William Leese - 2001-07-11

I'm afraid i see no difference with konqueror 2.2-beta1 rendering behavior than previous versions. Perhaps it didn't make it for the beta release.

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - Adam Jacob Muller - 2001-07-13

Why cant this behavior be configurable. even on a per page basis. setting the pause intervals on a render pause render pause render pause render scheme sounds great also allowing me to say DONT render until the entire page is downloaded because i have a VERY slow machine. or the IE behavior wait for the full table to download ( though this is VERY bad because sometimes IE will not display tables if a </TABLE> tag is missing). this is open source. and personally i think people should be free to configure things down to the last minuta if that's what they want.

Re: Konqueror vs Mozilla, Gecko & Konqueror - sas - 2004-12-15

whhooee:D I love yoooouuuuuuuuu:D:D:D

Re: Konqueror sucks - dc - 2001-07-13

But the Mozilla rendering engine is incredibly fast. Ever tried the latest Galeon yet?

Re: Konqueror sucks - Lempiälä - 2003-11-09

Not really.

Troll-Reply: Re: Konqueror sucks - Tackat - 2001-07-10

Hi Troll, > have too problems with strange html and definitively its not the best browser... Personally I think that it is the best browser. If you discover a bug you should fill out a bugreport at bugs.kde.org. > I think it will be good to suport Mozilla QT port Nobody keeps you from supporting the Mozilla QT port and nobody keeps you from improving the Mozilla bindings fon konqueror (you'll find them in kdebindings).

Re: Konqueror (does not) sucks - Konqueror IS the fastest. - 2004-04-07

Konqueror is the fastest browser I know. If you have a fast connection (like 5mbs download like mine), and you go to www.numion.com (http://www.numion.com/YourSpeed/Checkup.php?L=world&Duration=30&Repeat=600&Layout=1) and test each browser you will see which is the fastest. Konqueror goes ~2,700killobit/second wile Mozilla and Firefox goes ~400killobit/second. Internet Explorer went ~800killobit/second. I know the speed is less then my connections full speed, but it's only browsing not downloading big files. And I tested all of them sevrel times at different time of the year, and the result always came to be very similar.

Re: Konqueror sucks - asdf - 2004-04-27

IE less useful than lynx - konqueror rules

Re: Konqueror sucks - redfrog - 2004-08-04

Personally I can tell you I hate konqueror. But then by design the developers never set out to be the best browser, only the best overall application. The thinking in linux is that as long as we follow the standards set by the standard makers and do not budge, people will start to realize that in order to use our application and see things as they SHOULD be seen.. then THEY have to conform to the standards as well. Konqueror Developers just like Linux developers could care less if you can see web pages properly or if something is outputting correctly. All they care about is creating a product that is standardized. Hello??? Do you really think I am going spend my time redesigning my websites so that they work in Konqueror for 1% of the population and no where else cause of some stupid Linux developer thinking.. Good luck! If it was up to me I would toss konqueror to the dogs.. it rarely works properly.. it does not view sites created with ms fonts properly.. if you even make a single change to the font sizes your screwed for life, One page is fine the next is way off. It does not understand half the commands you would normally use in every day life. etc...etc..etc... Do yourself a favour people.. download Firefox for Linux.. you will be up and running in a few minutes.. and it works a heluva lot better then konq. I am in no way bad mouthing linux.. I love linux... I just hate konq.. Kind regards, redfrog

Re: Konqueror sucks - anon - 2004-08-04

> Konqueror Developers just like Linux developers could care less if you can see web pages properly or if something is outputting correctly they obviously do care-- look at bugs.kde.org. Please read http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt/archives/2003_11.html for a indication about how large the web is, and how hard supporting every webpage is.

Re: Konqueror sucks - Richard Moore - 2004-08-05

You may be right - you give me the distinct impression I couldn't give a shit if your websites work.

Strange... - khyeron - 2005-12-30

You seem to denigrate Konqueror, but you, as a web designer should've used your brain to realize that every apple/mac OS/darwin BSD user is going to be a SAFARI user, which USES KONQUEROR as its base... where they merely rewrote the QT engine in C++ if my memory serves correctly. This not meaning that they replaced any other parts of Konqueror. As a double test, I believe the only browser other than Opera and Safari that passes the ACID2 test (google it) is Konqueror. This means that it interprets the HTML properly.... hmmm, I wonder why Firefox and IE can't do it right? Could it be they are using shortcuts to render things as may not be specified in the whitepapers at w3c? (after all they DO set the standards for the web... even if microsoft rarely abides by them, the OSS community cares about this a bit more than you do) ~Khye

Not any more - Flangitaire - 2006-02-09

Remember, this is an old discussion. Konqueror was pretty sucky back in those days, but how things have changed! Now it's my browser of choice. When I'm forced to use Windows, I can't stand using any browser other than Konqueror (3.5.*). And tabbed file management - the most fantastic feature ever. Once you've tried it, you'll never go back.

Re: Not any more - Flangitaire - 2006-02-09

Just to clarify the above statement: When I'm forced to use Windows at work, I get frustrated by not being able to use Konqueror (yes, I know about cygwin etc.) It's a fantastic file manager and browser.

Re: Konqueror sucks - use Firefox - Michael H - 2006-07-03

I would like to download Firefox but I am using Konqueror and when I go to the Firefox page the download icon does not appear. After screwing around for ever i can find a page with a linux download icon. When I click the icon, Kongueror renames the file and downloads the file somewhere. Konqueror does not prompt me for a download location. When I finally find the file I can't unzip it. What am I doing wrong? After 2 days I am still not up and running with Firefox.

Re: Konqueror sucks - use Firefox - Generic User - 2006-07-13

Ha ha ;) You can always use ftp://ftp.mozilla.org to download mozilla/firefox. The installation process is somewhat more complicated. The easiest thing to do is to use your particular brand of linux's package management system. For instance on fedora typing 'yum install firefox' (as root) would install firefox. Using this method you do not need to download firefox in advance. Otherwise you need to install whatever it is you downloaded. If it is a rpm, rpm -i <filename> might do something. Otherwise if it is a tar.gz file tar xvfz <filename> will uncompress the file. Then traverse the directory tree until you find the firefox binary... If it is a tar.bz, then try tar xvfj <filename>. If it is a zip file, chances are you downloaded the windows version.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - garion911 - 2001-07-10

Awesome! Now if Konq could actaully work with my online banking...... (Note: I don't believe its Konq's problem... My online banking has a Java applet where the classes are suppose to be loaded by https, and I don't think the Java plugin supports loading of classes via https.. I have the same problem w/ mozilla..)...

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - henrik - 2001-07-10

That's cheese. The java you need works in the newest version of KDE.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - garion911 - 2001-07-10

I've been running KDE 2.2Beta2 w/ JRE 1.3.0_01, and it doesn't load classes via HTTPS.. The JRE can handle HTTPS within the applet, but it can't load it via HTTPS... Its something to do with the ClassLoader itself. --Garion

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - someone - 2001-07-11

>The JRE can handle HTTPS within the applet, but it can't load it via HTTPS. Not sure if I'm confusing something but did you install Sun Microsystem's JSSE as mentioned on http://www.konqueror.org/konq-java.html ?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Peter Schmitteckert - 2001-07-12

I have the same problem with both of my banks, e.g. http://www.sparkasse-gnp.de even doesn't get rendered correctly. Compare the page with old netscape 4.72, you'll realize, that the right menu is missing. Too sad. Best wishes, Peter P.S. Yes I did install JSSE, on my other bank account on a VOlksbank I can start the applet, but after that I get a sytem error within the applet :(

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Harold - 2001-07-10

Well, I did think KDE's browser was a great thing.. But now I can kiss it good-by if its going to have Microsoft unsecurity to it and I won't use Gnome since it wants to copy the .NNNET crap too.. If you want to have Active X in the browser, go use windows..

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Josh - 2001-07-10

What the hell's your problem? The Linux police aren't going to show up at your house tomorrow and make you install it.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Then don't use this new tool, and don't use Mono when it comes out. BTW, Linux supports many Microsoft technologies... well I'm not going to even go there... -Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Malte - 2001-07-11

No one would ever force you to use it. We do not intend to enable it by default so whoever wants to use it will have to deliberately turn it on. Also, at least in the current state it takes even more action to install it because of the neccessary WINE patches. If you don't have a WINE version with our patches or no WINE at all, it won't be compiled at all. No need to abandon Konqueror or KDE because of this. Don't like/want ActiveX? Don't turn it on. Don't like/want Java? Don't turn it on. Don't like/want JavaScript? Don't turn it on. ...

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - MrGrim - 2001-08-29

your loss

Embedding KParts - Tim Jansen - 2001-07-10

Does "embedding kparts" mean that it is possible to use the <object> tag to insert a KPart similar to a ActiveX control or a Netscape plugin (and if yes: where is this documented?) or does it only refer to the usual embedding of documents? In the latter case the text is quite confusing. Embedding KParts in HTML could be very interresting though, especially for HTML-based administration tools and things like that.

Re: Embedding KParts - Malte - 2001-07-11

You can embed KParts by using <embed> orp referably <object> tags. The KPart to be used will be determined by the MIME type of the data you want to embed. E.g. this will embed the KWord part into a web page showing foobar.kwd: <object width="400" height="300" data="foobar.kwd" type="application/x-kword"> </object>

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Matthias - 2001-07-10

There's a test of webbrowsers for linux in the German Linux-Magazin. Konqueror-2.1.2 comes off badly. It was tested with i-Bench 2.0 from Ziff Davis Media, Inc. Seven browsers (Beonex-0.6pre, Galeon-0.11.0, Konqueror-2.1.2, Mozilla-0.91, Netscape-4.77, Netscape-6, Opera-5.01) were tested, also IE-6.0Beta for comparison. Results in short: IE-6.0Beta is the fastest and the best in compatibility with standards. Konqueror is not very compatible to standards. Only Netscpae-4.77 is less compatible to HTML-4.0 than Konqueror. Konqueror is also slowly. Only Netscape-6 and Beonex are slower than konqueror. Conclusion: It should be done more for speed, stability and compatibility than adding new features!

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Confused - 2001-07-10

> Conclusion: It should be done more for speed, stability and compatibility than adding new features! I'm sorry, what are you saying? That nobody should develop plugins and addons to Konqueror until the Konqueror developers improve KHTML speed and stability? This is a volunteer project where people work on the itch they feel, not according to the schedule you would impose. As to compatability, if you could "closed" web standards, this does add a lot, wouldn't you say?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Matthias - 2001-07-11

> I'm sorry, what are you saying? That nobody should develop plugins and addons to Konqueror until the Konqueror developers improve KHTML speed and stability? No, of course not! There's also a way between that. > This is a volunteer project where people work on the itch they feel,.. But this is in my opinion a general problem of open source software. Nobody likes fixing bugs. It's cool to introduce new features. And so an advantage from linux gets lost: stability (ok, speed is not so important). But what can I do with a webbrowser with lots of cool features when I cannot use it. That's surely overstated and I also use Konqueror even as my standard browser, but till now there was no KDE-release which does it for me (not because of features but because of stability). I would like to miss features if I can have more stability instead. And besides this, I was trying direct attention to this article maybe in the hope to stimulate somebody to improve konqueror referring to this. (And that's what with open source can done much easier.) But for all that I love and use KDE. :-) PS: The difference between Konqueror and KHTML can't be found from an user point of view.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Confused - 2001-07-11

> > This is a volunteer project where people work on the itch they feel,.. > > But this is in my opinion a general problem of open source software. > Nobody likes fixing bugs. It's cool to introduce new features. And so > an advantage from linux gets lost: stability (ok, speed is not so > important). You are missing the point. The two developers are not Konqueror developers. It wasn't like they put aside Konqueror development to do this project. They got involved in Konqueror development through this project. > But what can I do with a webbrowser with lots of cool > features when I cannot use it. That's surely overstated and I also > use Konqueror even as my standard browser, but till now there was > no KDE-release which does it for me (not because of features but > because of stability). I would like to miss features if I can have > more stability instead. [ ... ] > PS: The difference between Konqueror and KHTML can't be found from an user point of view. Well you can tell b/c you start to see more apps using KTHM for online help browsing, documentation and now there is even a KControl module that embeds KHTML to permit using browser-based config tools in the Control Center.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - ac - 2001-07-11

Yes, and this article is widely known to be biased, misinformed and in several cases simply _wrong_. Better read the article, find the "mistakes" and complain to LinuxMagazin and the author.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Matthias - 2001-07-11

> Yes, and this article is widely known to be biased, misinformed and in several cases simply _wrong_. Hmmm... I don't notice that there was already talk about it and I also don't read a comment about the article in KDE-news with a correction of this errors. > Better read the article, find the "mistakes" and complain to LinuxMagazin and the author. How can I find mistakes when I don't know it better? I read the article to inform me about the topic. A person like you had to complain to the author, otherwise many people (like me) read it and think it's true. (I don't mean this personally but the logic was not right.) By the way: What are the mistakes in the article? Are there links about a discussion to it?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - not me - 2001-07-11

Well, since the article isn't available online, you're not going to find much discussion of it online. I'd never even heard of it. However, a post here says that they reported that Java doesn't work with Konqeror. If they did report that, I can't possibly imagine that their review is much good. That's almost certainly a distribution problem, nothing to do with Konqueror. I am interested in why Konqeror got such a low standards rating. Did they do tests that indicated it had problems with HTML or CSS compatibility, or did they just complain about Java?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Tom - 2001-07-11

I have read this article and something made me confused about that: The article says that for example JAVA does not start with konqueror. On my machine Java and konqueror is no problem. I think they had distribution based problems. The other thing is that that the testing was compared to the newest IE beta from Windows XP; konqueror was only tested in kde 2.1.x version. Why haven't they taken the newest konqueror version from CVS ??? I know that konqueror could be faster and more stable, but i think that a test should be made on unique coditions. P.S.: I know the "stable" IE5 and often this one gets stuck without any chance to reproduce the bug.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Jon - 2001-07-11

Java does work with Konqueror, but it is by default not enabled - you have to go to configuration section and select the checkbox to enable it (the same is true of Javascript). If the reviewers didn't even bother looking through the configuration dialogs, I imagine they got a lot of other things wrong as well.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

huh, well, standards and actual usage are two different things. I've found Konqi renders waaaay better than Netscape or Opera (any version), and is faster any day. BTW, ActiveX = compatibility. -Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Thorsten Schnebeck - 2001-07-11

Its a synthetic browser test. I don't know if you can say the author is biased. Tackat and I had some fun with this guy on www.linux-community.de cause he first did the tests with a Konqi 1.9.x ;-) You can make the test yourself: http://i-bench.zdnet.com/ibench/testlist/home_js.php You will see, Konqi has some problems with this test. But reality it different, using the internet with Konqi is fun. Ok, there are some problems (most notably JaveScript), but if we give KDE developers the task: Konqi needs a 100% result in this benchmark, I think there would be not so much improvement in daily browsing. Bye Thorsten

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Choadzilla - 2001-07-11

>Konqueror has received another huge shot in the arm, For implementing the security nightmare that is ActiveX controls in a web brower, you deserve a shot in the head, not the arm.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Carbon - 2001-07-11

This does not decrease the security of the browser itself, only when the browser is using an ActiveX control. Read the discussion above about chrooting.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - matthias - 2001-07-11

Although I'm reading this with Opera and will soon switch to a Mac. (wine won't work), I wan't congratulate the Konquerer developers. You're doing a great job and keep up the work. You are the guys that will prove that Linux-Desktop lives more than ever. THANX

embedding X windows - cosmo - 2001-07-11

Speaking of embedding X windows, any idea whether Konqueror will ever be able to embed java applets/windows within itself on window managers other than kwin?

Re: embedding X windows - Peter Schmitteckert - 2001-07-12

That's something I never understood, why we don't have X11 windows in todays browsers. We could serve a complete remote KDE desktop if the Browser infrastructure would allows this. Best wishes, Peter

Microsoft.Net - Chris (HUPER) Hughes - 2001-07-11

Hey everybody! I can't understand why people are Kicking MS about their .NET services. It really is a solidly laid-out architecture. If you have been getting MSDN Cd's you would realize that it is a VERY powerful set of tools that run on a nicely integrated environment. I have been following XML for a while and have not seen ANY large scale support, I am glad to see that MS will push this standard into the mainstream. Thanks Chris

Re: Microsoft.Net - S Lone - 2001-07-11

Microsoft lackey!

Re: Microsoft.Net - not me - 2001-07-11

Knee-jerk zealot!

Re: Microsoft.Net - Carbon - 2001-07-11

Oh yeah, I'm a turban!

Re: Microsoft.Net - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

I'm not sure if you could say Microsoft is pushing out standards, only their twisted version of standards... but still I'm glad to see .net support in Linux. It will mean that Microsoft will not be able to dominate next generation computing.

Re: Microsoft.Net - Alex - 2001-07-12

>I have been following XML for a while and have not seen ANY large scale support Look at java or beter yet j2ee, plus Micro$oft has it's own XML standart, plus what does that have to do with ActiveX except for letter X?

Java and Flash first - Alain - 2001-07-11

I am dubitative. Today Konqueror is installed without Flash and Java (by Mandrake 8.0 for instance). You may say that it is possible to add such plugins, but it is complex... So Konqui don't know Flash and Java for many users. About Shockwave I feel it will be more difficult, because there are Wine things and they are not easy to install. So nothing will change. And it's not important, I don't worry, I don't like sites using Shockave or other ActiveX gadgets... Yes, Shockwave is also unpopular...

Re: Java and Flash first - Tim Jansen - 2001-07-11

I see your point, but this is not exactly Konquerors problem but the problem of the distribution (and the legal situation of proprietary things like Flash). Write Mandrake that you want your Konqueror pre-installed with Flash and Java. If they cannot distribute Flash, tell them that they should write some script that automatically downloads and installs it for you.

Re: Java and Flash first - Alain - 2001-07-11

Tim says : > this is not exactly Konquerors problem but the problem of the distribution So, please don't say that Java and Flash run with Konqueror, it is false. Today Java and Flash work with Suze-Konqueror and don't work with Mandrake-Konqueror and many other distribs. I think that the Konqueror team has to help distribs (write some scripts...) so that they all will deliver Konqui with Flash and Java, and in the same way (so that we may easily change distrib...). It will be useful, also, for advanced users... It's too easy to say it works when it don't work for many and many users. It's too easy to say the fault comes from distribs...

Re: Java and Flash first - Tim Jansen - 2001-07-11

I am using Konqueror on Debian and Flash works fine. I never tried Java though.

Re: Java and Flash first - Navindra Umanee - 2001-07-11

> So, please don't say that Java and Flash run > with Konqueror, it is false. Nonsense. I have been using Java and Flash with my Mandrake 8.0 since Day 1. -N.

Re: Java and Flash first - Juan - 2001-07-11

It depends on which are the installed rpms. Mandrake 8.0 includes this support in an RPM called kdensplugins, or something similar. I had to install it after initial system installation. And it works very nicely.

Re: Java and Flash first - Alain - 2001-07-12

It seems impossible with the 2 Mandrake basic CD : - the rpm netscape-plugins is absent and it is necessary for Flash - there is no java machine I asked on a Mandrake mailing list and also on the Usenet Kde forum : there was no other solution than following the Konqueror site manipulations... My questions - and then the questions of other users - where seen by many users and NO ONE said it was commonplace, as you seem to say... Perhaps you made an update with Mandrake while netscape-plugins and java machine were already installed ? It is a very particular and exceptional situation...

Re: Java and Flash first - Navindra Umanee - 2001-07-12

KDE cannot control what Mandrake decides to distribute or not -- so you should complain to them as a paying customer and not blindly flame KDE. HOWEVER I, too, am a paying customer and bought my Mandrake Linux Standard Edition. I can tell you it comes with netscape-plugins, FlashPlayer, etc and all this works flawlessly. It's also true that as I develop Java, I already had the latest Java RPM from my previous Mandrake 7.2 installation. Mandrake probably distributes it with their Plus Pack. So please be reasonable and find the right people to complain to instead of accusing us of making false claims.

Re: Java and Flash first - Alain - 2001-07-12

Navindra explains that he is not a basic Mandrake user using the two basic CD. > So please be reasonable and find the right people to complain to instead of accusing us of making false claims. Sorry, I was right: in the basic Mandrake distrib and many other distribs, Konqueror is installed without Flash and Java. It is true, it is not a "nonsense", but a great trouble to improve. (yes I say "great" because it was the biggest trouble of my Mandrake install and I have seen other users with the same difficulties, so I am perhaps a little disturbing, but I don't want to see such things minimized !) I also said that it is possible to add Flash and Java with complex (for a basic user) manipulations. So now it is only for advanced users. I wish it will change... And I think that it will be better done by the Konqueror team than by the many distrib teams... (And I worry that it can be seen something like a "blindly flame". It is a constructive wish)

Re: Java and Flash first - Navindra Umanee - 2001-07-12

I see, so you did not buy the official Mandrake? Or else what is this "basic" Mandrake that you talk about? I only see the Standard Edition and Deluxe Edition here in Montreal stores. Perhaps in your country it is different. You also seem to not understand that KDE has no control over what Mandrake decides to do. *YOU* do. So talk to Mandrake and get it fixed... Anyway, I think I already said everything that I wanted, and more, in this conversation, I'm out. -N.

Re: Java and Flash first - Alain - 2001-07-12

> what is this "basic" Mandrake that you talk about? I Of course it is the download version and also the magazines version. (and be quite, I bought a standard edition before you and -perhaps - before anybody else, the first day of the avalaibility of Mandrake 5.6, in Paris). I am very surprised by your reaction. I have seen in this site that the KDE team wants to create more configuration tools (as do distribs), so I thought that it was a common wish to hope a KDE whole Konqueror configuration....

Re: Java and Flash first - not me - 2001-07-12

>I thought that it was a common wish to hope a KDE whole Konqueror configuration You misunderstand. Navindra wants Konqueror's Flash and Java to work too, but she is telling you that it is not *KDE's* fault that *Mandrake's* distribution doesn't install Java and Flash by default. If you want Konqueror to have Java and Flash working in Mandrake, you must talk to Mandrake. There is unfortunately nothing KDE can do about it, because Flash and Java are not KDE programs and can't be included with the KDE packages (legal difficulties). This discussion should be taking place at Mandrakeforum.com, where you would be able to talk to other Mandrake users about this Mandrake-specific problem.

Re: Java and Flash first - Alain - 2001-07-12

> There is unfortunately nothing KDE can do about it, because Flash and Java are not KDE programs and can't be included with the KDE packages (legal difficulties). I don't say that Flash and Java are to be included in KDE packages, I know there are legal difficulties. I said that the Konqueror team may write some scripts so that any distribution and any advanced user may easily (and in the same way) add Flash and Java to Konqueror so that it will be very simple and transparent (nothing to do) for the end users of distribs. And I add now that it is perhaps possible that the Konqueror team create a separate package according to legal things so that it installs all the plugins of Konqueror. So if a distrib is only GPLed, the user has only to download and install a rpm (or something like). I am sure that today a majority of Konqui users don't use Java because it is too difficult to install. Why say that Shocwave is coming if tomorrow only a minority will install it, for the same reasons ?... Do you want a Konqueror easy to install (with all things) and everywhere installed in the same way ? Now it is not... I think it is the problem of KDE, yes. (knowing that the KDE team wants to do some configuration tools, as distribs, I think that such tools would at first exists for the KDE programs installation, of course...)

Re: Java and Flash first - Digger - 2002-09-03

Hi! Have just installed Mandrake 8.2. Im a newbie in this. Got the same problem. Maybe it is a good idea to include at least some kind of popup to give nwebies easy way to install Java and Flash.

Re: Java and Flash first - MANUEL PEREZ LOPEZ - 2002-12-28

Ohhhhh!!!!... My new Mandrake 9.0 (update at this date dic-2002) does not work correctly: java and flash are not implement in this distribution in any browsers. I think Mandrake is making BIG mistakes to the newbie Linux users. (And There are other important bugs) Bye, Manuel Perez

Re: Java and Flash first - domi - 2002-12-29

they aren't "not implemented", you just need to install them yourself. Are you using the free download edition of mdk, i believe that the for pay version comes with these non-free things pre-installed...

Re: Java and Flash first - digger - 2002-12-29

Install Netscape. This will solve all the probblems.

Re: Java and Flash first - totallynotcool - 2003-06-02

Allow me to rant for a moment. Whenever I do a search for any sort of help with Linux, all I find is a bunch of whining about how hard Linux is. If all you want to do is complain, reformat your hard drive and pony up some cash to Bill Gates. He'll be glad to sell you the latest incarnation of Windows! I'm the type of person who drives a manual shift transmission in my car because it gives me a certain measure of control - within certain parameters, of course. I'm trying out Linux because I believe that, despite its sharper learning curve, the end result will be ultimatly more satisfying. I'm only a lowly, undesirable newbie, and I, too, would like to install not only Java in my Mandrake 9.0 operating system, but Java as well. Unfortunatly, I have little or no idea of how to accomplish this remarkable feat. I've been around computers in general for a number of years, even built my own box on a number of occasions as well as tinkered with DOS commands here and there. If any of you Linux gods out there are willing to take a fledgling under their protective wing, so to speak, PLEASE let me know! As for the crybabies out there, a: go back to Microsoft b: remember to pick up some baby food the next time you go grocery shopping. You obviously need it! totallynotcool@hotmail.com

Re: Java and Flash first - totallynotcool - 2003-06-02

After re-reading, I meant to say Java and Flash. No need to install Java twice, now is there?

Re: Java and Flash first - Alex - 2004-07-19

HI!!! I have SuSE 9.1 and java works fine with Konqueror. I cannot say the same about flash that works when it wants!! I see that: if I open my home page in a tab (my home page contains a flash animation) i cannot see the animation. If I open, in another tab, the home page.. there I can see the animation. After this I can see flash animation until I cose Konqueror. Anyone has a reply for this?? Excuse me for my english... ALEX

This is almost good, but... - Eric Windisch - 2001-07-11

This will really please the x86 users of Linux, however this will still not make ActiveX available on non-x86 architectures. Great job, shame it is (and can) only satisfy a small percentage of users. It would be really neat if there was a hack for Wine to run Windows applications compiled for x86 under non-x86 architectures without emulation.. of course that would be asking for a lot :) -- Eric Windisch

Re: This is almost good, but... - not me - 2001-07-11

>It would be really neat if there was a hack for Wine to run Windows applications compiled for x86 under non-x86 architectures without emulation.. of course that would be asking for a lot :) It would be asking the impossible. Emulation is required between different CPU architectures. Now, if you were a l33t h4x0r, you might port Wine itself to a different CPU architecture, allowing the API to run natively, and using an emulation solution such as Bochs (http://bochs.sourceforge.net) to run the x86 binary code. Not sure if it's really possible, or even worthwile to implement, but it sounds cool :-)

Re: This is almost good, but... - Eric Windisch - 2002-02-07

Actually.. Wine was (being?) ported to PowerPC. Well, one of the reasons you need an emulator to run Amiga apps on your x86 box is because there is no Amiga API implimented for your operating system on the x86 box. If you have an implimentation of the API, you can emulate a CPU and run applications without having to have a complete VM. It would actually be possible to run Windows applications on PowerPC via any platform Wine supports.. without having a complete VM. I never said it would be easy...

Re: This is almost good, but... - Eric windisch - 2002-02-22

Oh, btw.. How do you think that MacOS9 on a PowerPC machine runs applications written for MacOS7 compiled for a m68k processor? :)

Re: This is almost good, but... - Andy Richardson - 2002-09-10

If I remember correctly the PowerPC evolved from the IBM POWER architecture and was also developed by Motorolla, it could very well be that the 68000 op-codes form a subset of the PPC op-codes. This is certainly true for the POWER/POWERPC machines, which allows AIX to run on different architectures (this is not QUITE true, as AIX enquires as to the platform its running on and uses architecture optimised routines in the kernel, using a branch table). But the op-codes that can be used by the IBM RS/6000 compiler used for user space programs has to ensure that it will run on both. So this sort of thing is not new. The x86->PPC conversion is totally different. Andy

Re: This is almost good, but... - Bijan Soleymani - 2003-06-04

No powerpc and 68k are completely different. The only way to run programs from one on the other is through emulation.

Re: This is almost good, but... - Bijan Soleymani - 2003-06-04

No powerpc and 68k are completely different. The only way to run programs from one on the other is through emulation.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-11

Thank-you a ton Nikolas and Malte! This is really an exciting and and amazing accomplishment! Now I just have to try reaktivate. BTW, does anyone know if perhaps this will be integrated into the main CVS for KDE 2.3? thanks, Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Konqulator - 2001-07-11

Followers, not leaders. Arguments for this are now people with Linux can do Linux and winblowz, and it costs less when users switch etc.... However, to beat your enemies, one shouldn't marry their daughter/son or marry into their family and hope to inherit your way to success. Therefore, do you think that people will stop using the supported activex junk? Or, they'll keep using it more and allowing micros~1 to set the standards? Looks like you are to follow micros~1 in standards, just like everyone else, not set them. Why is it that micros~1 are able to charge for trash, while you can't even get enough users by giving away your work? --- Call me a troll or what you wish, but you entitle my opinion, regardless.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - for a bloatless Desktop - 2001-07-11

what's next, to port the BSOD and GPF's ?

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Navindra Umanee - 2001-07-12

Dear l33t hax0r, If you find any exploits, let me know too please. -N.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Darian Lanx - 2001-07-12

<aol>me too</aol> Feel free to mail them to my office address security@bovenet.at or security@above.net

Reduce the waiting period - kde-user - 2001-07-11

One question about Konq. Does Konq have the ability to pre-cache links on the page that you are visiting so that if you click on one of the links, that site has been giving some time to load already and you wait less.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - stephan - 2001-07-11

It's fairly interesting. When something is done in sparetime and absolutely free others aren't allowed to critizise the work. Those who dare are said to be flamers and co. This is amusing. Where is the freedom you talk about all the time?! regards stephan

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - not me - 2001-07-12

>When something is done in sparetime and absolutely free others aren't allowed to critizise the work. On the contrary, constructive criticism is welcomed. People who criticize a project based on unfounded assumptions and poorly-thought-out arguments get what they deserve. And trolls are just dumb. The people who are criticizing this work just for existing (example: what next, port the BSOD?) are being trolls. You don't have to use this, it probably won't even be included in KDE proper because of its dependence on WINE. Besides, they *are* being allowed to criticize. No one is censoring them, and their views are being heard. The fact that they are being called trolls and flamers doesn't inhibit their freedom of speech.

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Timothy R. Butler - 2001-07-12

I see people criticise all the time (without flames back at 'em). The key things are: 1.) Does the criticism help? 2.) Is it really logical or is it a very narrow view point? 3.) Are the posters mean or insulting to those who worked hard on this project? Now I might note that on one post who shall go nameless's posts last night he took a narrow view saying that if it didn't work everywhere, and just how *HE* wanted it, it shouldn't be on the dot. Thus he received flames. The other poster, who notme mentioned to you said something about porting BSOD's next. Any logical person knows that the developers didn't port ActiveX merely to open up problems, and so this was obviously insulting. When someone works in their freetime to do something like this, they certainly don't deserve, mindless, narrow minded, or down right insulting posts, don't you agree? -Tim

Re: Konqueror Gets Activ(eX)ated - Martin Seiler - 2001-07-18

Thanks, this is great. We have been waiting a long time for shockwave on linux. regards M.Seiler <A href="http://www.shocktime.de">http://www.shocktime.de</A>

Program Shockwave plugin from scratch? - Dav - 2001-07-20

Which are the limitations which make that programmers didn't make linux-native shockwave plugin yet? Are there legal limitations?

Re: Program Shockwave plugin from scratch? - jari soderholm - 2001-09-30

There is one native FLASH implementation for Linux Check this out: http://www.swift-tools.com/Flash/ Jari

Re: Program Shockwave plugin from scratch? - Carlos Morales - 2003-06-28

Flash its NOT a shockwave-plug in shockwave uses director, its used for applications, games, tutorials, but there is not a linux-native shockwave player (as i know the only one that support shockwave its crossover plugin) but it is really slow, because it uses emulation to use shockwave for windows on linux, any way, i think if a lot of ppl its really organized, can ask macromedia for some technical information to make a shockwave plugin for linux community, of course, it wouldn't be really suported by macromedia, a lot, because i've sent some mails to macromedia, and there was not response, some ppl have had a response from macromedia saying that they have no plans to make a linux native shockwave plugin, unless the free community develop its own plugin it think there is no way to have a Director shockwave player plug in for linux

Quit whining - Scott - 2001-10-06

This is good. Most of the security holes in activeX aren't applicable for linux anyway plus it's a PATCH. No one is forcing you to apply it! If you don't like activeX don't use it. Don't yell at the KDE League about progress. this isn't going to do the impossible, it's just a nifty hack. Don't whine about being insulted, wine NEVER ran on non x86 archs. Jeeze.. some people.. can't appreciate anything. Just because you don't like activeX doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.

Compileing reAktivate - Roger - 2002-07-15

I'm a newbye on linux and i'm trying to install reAktivate, I can't undestand why Macromedia doesn't make a Shockwave player for linux, but that's not the problem, the problem is, how can i compile reAktivate? You will be probably laughting a lot now, but i think the documentation(if you call this documentation) of how to install reAktivate is horrible. I installed wine with the patch, but now i don't know how to compile the reAktivate source, can anyone help me please? I don't know if reAktivate works fine, but I think that the documentation have to be improved a lot, because not all the users that use linux are gurus. Thank's a lot [royger]

Re: Compileing reAktivate - newbie - 2004-05-17

i dont even get how to get it from cvs. they could write a commandline, but no.. "get it from cvs".

Re: Compileing reAktivate - wfyk - 2004-09-27

hey i figured out how 2 do it, u must download e toplevel kdenonbeta directory and the kde-common directory to do it e.g. cvs co -R kdenonbeta/reaktivate cvs co -l kdenonbeta cvs co -R kde-common cd kdenonbeta ln -s ../kde-common/admin make -f Makefile.cvs

Re: Compileing reAktivate - jennie - 2006-05-28

=( And how/where do you do that from? I am a total newbie to this. Lame-mans terms and links would be MUCH appreciated.

Dead? - Gando - 2006-09-22

Hi is it dead, or is there a new project with the same goal? If somebody hear me ... please tell me :=) Thx