KDE 3.0 Beta2 is Out

Thursday, 14 February 2002 | Tbutler

KDE 3.0 Beta2 was announced today after a delay due to a variety of problems. This new release should provide a great opportunity for those interested in helping hunt down bugs or simply seeing where the future of KDE is headed. Read the full announcement for details. "One of the major improvements brought by KDE 3.0 over KDE 2.2 is the Javascript/DHTML support in Konqueror. The DOM 2 model, used to render an HTML page, is now mostly implemented, and changes to the DOM tree are handled much better. The Javascript bindings and support is almost complete, faster and more stable than in KDE 2. These changes result in a much-improved rendering of dynamic websites and is something users will immediately appreciate."

Comments:

.. and it is Sweet! - jd - 2002-02-14

I have been running recent CVS for a few days and I must say it rocks! When they say konq is improved they are not kidding, I rarely have any problems with 2.2.2, but the latest just flies. :) Yes, there is a heap of minor bugs, but I found it very stable and quite workable.

AA? - zack - 2002-02-14

Is AA finally working in this release? That has been something that's been keeping me from switching over to KDE3 from KDE2. What can I say, I'm an AA junkie ;)

Re: AA? - Sam - 2002-02-14

he,he AA in 3.0 is much better in my eyes than in 2.2 Do I need to say more ?

Re: AA? - emmanuel - 2002-02-14

last time i checked, non-AA fonts were displayed as well as AA fonts and i couldn't find a way to display ONLY AA fonts => was really a problem.. i hope it's fixed now..

Re: AA? - Tim - 2002-02-14

It's a feature, not a bug.. :-) Tim

Re: AA? - emmanuel - 2002-02-18

i'm sure you know the axiom "a bug is a feature that you cannot turn off" (or vice-versa).

Re: AA? - Erik Hensema - 2002-02-14

No, it doesn't work. I've setup AA without any trouble in KDE2, but I can't get it to work in KDE3. Using Suse 7.1, downloaded the binary RPMs.

Re: AA? Duh!!! - me - 2002-02-14

if this ain't AA... kde cvs (compiled sources)

Re: AA? - ac - 2002-02-14

Try running qtconfig. This is a bug that will be fixed before release.

Re: AA? - not me - 2002-02-15

I ran qtconfig, and it still doesn't work. Can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. What happens is most programs started from Kicker (and kicker itself) don't use all the new fancy alpha-transparency and AA fonts. If I start a KDE program from the terminal, I get nice alpha-blended shadows and stuff but I still can't access any AA fonts. Using KDE and qt-copy from just before beta2 (probably during the CVS and mail blackout, CVSup was still working), on Debian. I'll try compiling again soon, hopefully that will fix the problem. If not, maybe I'll start trying to investigate what's happening.

Re: AA? - Sad Eagle - 2002-02-15

Edit startkde and remove LD_BIND_NOW=true.. Unfortunately,that will slow some things down

Re: AA? - Anonymous - 2002-02-15

Usually removing "true" only from this line will help too.

Re: AA? - not me - 2002-02-15

Well, even that didn't do it. Hopefully it will fix itself next time I update KDE/QT.

Re: AA? - Sad Eagle - 2002-02-15

Edit startkde and remove LD_BIND_NOW=true.. Unfortunately,that will slow some things down at kdeinit will not be as effective at reducing the linking time.

Re: AA? - Danny - 2002-02-16

Avtually, for me (LM 8.2cooker), AA is working perfectly, except that in KHTML, it is not listening to my XftConfig preferences (no AA between 8 and 15 pt).

Every time - Dr_LHA - 2002-02-14

Yet again - no Redhat binaries. I'd love to try this out at home, but I'm running a little known and little used OS called Redhat 7.2 :-)

Re: Every time - Richard Moore - 2002-02-14

Then talk to redhat. We don't build binaries for anyone - some distros choose to make the effort and some don't. Rich.

Re: Every time - Dr_LHA - 2002-02-14

> Then talk to redhat. We don't build binaries for anyone - some distros choose to make the effort and some don't. Yeah - I know. Sorry if this seemed aimed at the KDE developers - it wasn't - I was just being a grouch. "bero" needs to pull his finger out and get working on it. :-) Closest I can find is this: http://www.linux-easy.com/daily/

Re: Every time - Ian Reinhart Geiser - 2002-02-14

Bero is working his arse off. He does these builds on his OWN time outside of RH time AFAIK. Cut him some slack and call/email/yell at RH tech support. It is no secret what RH thinks about KDE, it is just Bero is not in agreement with them. -ian reinhart geiser

Re: Every time - Dr_LHA - 2002-02-14

> Bero is working his arse off. As evidenced by the link I gave to the web page he maintains with the daily CVS builds. I just happen to think also that a beta2 set of rpms would be more useful than daily CVS builds for bug reporting/fixing. I don't care who builds them - but it'd be nice if someone did. > It is no secret what RH thinks about KDE, it is just Bero is not in agreement with them. Well they do have 2.2.2 available for RH7.2 - so I think you should cut RH some slack. Personally my only gripe with RH at the moment is that they don't support CUPS in their KDE rpms - meaning I have to recompile kdelibs from source.

Re: Every time - Eduardo - 2002-02-14

> Well they do have 2.2.2 available for RH7.2 - so I think you should cut RH some slack. Yeah, right. With a showstopper bug like this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=54220 which renders all non-us keyboards unusable. Yeah, you can use KDE, but you cannot use it in German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Hungarian, etc... That is why KDE support in Red Hat -despite the efforts of bero- is downright laughable.

Re: Every time - Dr_LHA - 2002-02-14

> Yeah, right. With a showstopper bug like this: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=54220 Hmm.. that does suck. > which renders all non-us keyboards unusable. Well that's not entirely true: My UK keyboard works under RH's KDE 2.2.2 fine. :-)

Re: Every time - Carg - 2002-02-14

You have already commented on this on Slashdot and bero has replied. One day before you posted here, actually. Others can read the comments on http://slashdot.org/~bero-rh.

Re: Every time - Eduardo - 2002-02-16

I have answered him, too. His "workarounds" don't work in my particular keyboard layout. Besides that, the workaround is not docummented.

Re: Every time - Carg - 2002-02-14

Calling/mailing/yelling RH's tech support won't do you any good. You only get that support if you paid for it, and even if you did, the support doesn't include beta versions of software included with Red Hat. Bero is in agreement with RH, at least until HE says otherwise. Don't put words in his mouth.

Re: KDE3 - Ant Banks - 2002-02-14

kwitcherbitchen & check rawhide....ftp://rawhide.redhat.com

Re: KDE3 - Dr_LHA - 2002-02-14

No beta2 rpms there. Some CVS builds.

Re: Every time - daniel - 2002-02-14

Why cant you just compile it yourself?

Re: Every time - Darren Mossman - 2002-02-14

I suggest learning how to compile from source. Never worry about not finding binaries again.

Re: Every time - Spider - 2002-02-19

Well, thats all nice and dandy if you run a LFS system, but if you ever want the full use of a package manager, you do -not- want to blend "built-from-source" and prepackaged software, since that will make upgrades more or less impossible, and also will probably break quite some dependencies (from source overwrites packaged version, fex.)

Speeeeed - Ian Reinhart Geiser - 2002-02-14

So far i have been VERY impressed with KDE 3.0. We demoed it at LWE on an AMD K6 and it was more responsive than KDE 2.2 on my athlon at home. My only gripe thus far is it seems there are a few rough areas with Keyboard accelleration and styles. (I hate the default QT styles, and it seems keys randomly do things in KDE 3.0) I was most impressed that I was able to move my KDE 2.2.1 to KDE 3.0 cvs preferences better than I was able to go from KDE 2.1 to 2.2. Next target KOffice... now that is really starting to look sexy too. I love the new KPresenter, it will really be worth the wait. -ian reinhart geiser

Re: Speeeeed - Sad Eagle - 2002-02-14

If you can't access KDE styles, run qtconfig (It's in bin directory under Qt3 install root), go to Library Paths tab, and add $KDEDIR/lib/kde3/plugins to it. Save, and KDE should be able to find its styles. Not being able to find KDE style plugins is a minor and subtle Qt buglet the fix for which should be in there sometime soon..

Re: Speeeeed - Lecter - 2002-02-14

Thanks for the tip. I was wondering why my favorite style has disappeared...

Re: Speeeeed - Ian Reinhart Geiser - 2002-02-14

wow, thanks now i have have light3 :) -ian reinhart geiser

Re: Speeeeed - someone - 2002-02-14

A KDE developer not using CVS before any exhibition and not reading http://www.kde.org/info/3.0.html or mailing-lists? :-)

Re: Speeeeed - Ian Reinhart Geiser - 2002-02-14

um, i dont get it? i read the lists, as well as one can, and am on cvs, core-devel and devel. -ian reinhart geiser

Re: Speeeeed - someone - 2002-02-14

Then you didn't read http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=101265603817499&w=2 thread.

KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - someone - 2002-02-14

Sad but true that there will be no KOffice 1.2/KOffice for KDE 3 until mid August which will be around the time when KDE 3.1 will be released.

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - Ian Reinhart Geiser - 2002-02-14

Why is this sad? Why not make KOffice as stable as possible? Sometimes I wonder why people love running crappy software just to say they have the latest beta. Good things come to those who wait, and better things come to those who help ;) -ian reinhart geiser

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - ne... - 2002-02-14

I don't think you understand. KDE betas are much better than some version 5.00.2195 software ;-). Plus all this waiting, I mean, there is only so much drooling a man can do. After that he needs his fix.

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - Monkey Beater - 2002-02-14

cvs checkout koffice make -f Makefile.cvs ./configure --prefix=$yourkdedir make make install ;) Yes it is infintely more stable than Openoffice even as prealpha, and printing even works ;) There are a whole boatload of new features there, and some neat stuff on the backside. KWord and KPresenter are looking very solid, and Kontour is getting a major overhaul. Even Krayon is getting a great deal of attention. -ian reinhart geiser

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - someone - 2002-02-14

Krayon great deal of attention? Don't exagerate, http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-cvs&w=2&r=1&s=krayon&q=b

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - someone - 2002-02-14

Every KDE Beta is accompanied by a call to 3rd party developers to port their KDE2 applications to KDE3 and best until KDE 3.0 release. I think the hope is to make the switching period from KDE2 to KDE3 short. Only KDE itself will not deliver a KOffice release for KDE3 for at least 5 months. This will cause many users and distributions not to switch to KDE3 as default soon. In my opinion there should be something like "KOffice 1.1.2 for KDE3" even if the slogan given is "no new KOffice release without WSYIWYG".

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - ac - 2002-02-14

Relax. someone (not you) is porting KDE 1.1.1 to KDE3.

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - someone - 2002-02-14

Who? URL? That's the first time I hear about this.

Re: KOffice [Re: Speeeeed ] - someone - 2002-02-14

Found it myself, didn't exspect it in the KOffice user mailing-list: http://lists.kde.org/?l=koffice&m=101363976127826&w=2

Mandrake RPMs - Eric E - 2002-02-14

Hi yall, I was thrilled to find out that KDE3b2 had been packaged into Mandrake 8.1 RPMs - saves me many hours of compiling. Even more excited to find that they don't overwrite KDE 2.2, but instead install to /opt/kde3. I'm installing now. Huge kudos to all of the good folks at Mandrake for this. With luck, future RPMs releases will let you run as many concurrent KDE's as your disk will allow, all easy as you please. One weird thing did happen, though, when I installing kdelibs3-3.0beta2....rpm and all subsequent RPMs I get the following message: file /opt/kde3/lib/libkdecore.so.4.0.0;3c6af3c8 is truncated A truncated library seems like trouble to me, so I downloaded the RPM again and reinstalled - same result. Anyone else have this problem? Anyone know what it's about? Thanks for advice, and thanks for the great work on KDE. Cheers, Eric

Sweet - Somebody - 2002-02-14

now get me some debs dammit! I cant even compile cause there's no up-to-date qt3 deb package, and I cant really be arsed to compile qt3 (that and I've hardly got any disk space... pride more than necessity stopped me from upgrading from a 5Gb hard disk but maybe I really do need a bigger one...)

Re: Sweet - DanielS - 2002-02-14

Yeah, comments like this are what makes me want to work my arse off even MORE than I already am! Great! My .deb's are halfway there, but I've recently had to abandon all my morals and beg for access to a build box on debian-kde. I suggest you try building all of qt, kdelibs, etc, with *NO* guarantee of a successful build, on a p2 350. Then to have kdebase stop because it's run out of room, even when there's nothing else on your largest partition apart from /. I hope to have the .deb's out soon, but remember: I have a life, too. I have school, work, and more. I also have a gf 220km away, which will take up most of my weekend except for Saturday, because I didn't see her today. You'll get the debs when I have time. In the meantime, deal with KDE2.2. Of course, you can just run debuild -B -us -uc from the source trees, but I don't recommend it. I have no idea whether or not it'll build right, and it may or may not install in the right places. That's why it's taking a while - I'm redoing the packaging from scratch to be more sane, and thoroughly testing them. If you want to help, jump on #debian-kde on OpenProjects and talk to either myself or anyone else if I'm not around, and see what you can do to help; it'd be much appreciated. Eek, bell's just rung for 6th session. Indo, whoo. -d BTW: if you're really, really desperate for kdelibs packages, I have some packages of those that largely work; there are only two known issues which I have both workarounds and proper fixes for. Email me.

Re: Sweet - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-14

:: I have school, work, and more. I also have a gf 220km away, which will take up most of my weekend except for Saturday, because I didn't see her today. Hey, guys... here's a brilliant concept: if you use debian, why not pool together and do something for this guy? Seriously - you all use the fruits of his labour... it would be nice to support him. -- Evan

Re: Sweet - Somebody - 2002-02-14

Jesus man, don't take me so literally =P I'm happy to wait, and as for returning the favour... well, I was planning to do so to the KDE team cause Konq 2.2.1 messes up the rendering of many pages, perhaps if these problems are still there I could file bug reports, isolating the HTML code responsible and everything (I unfortunately, have too much free time but I'm not the best of coders... how hard is it to package the KDE distribution?)

Re: Sweet - kdeFan - 2002-02-15

I'm a recent Debian convert who uses kde daily. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your work: Thanks! While I'm at it, thanks to the kde project volunteers also!

Re: Sweet need deb's - Mike - 2002-02-14

I need deb's too but it seems they will be avaliable about Sunday! I cant compile cause qt wont compile because of XftFreetype.h.

Re: Sweet need deb's - Michael Häckel - 2002-02-14

Does it help, if you configure qt with "-no-xft" ?

Re: Sweet need deb's - Mike - 2002-02-15

yes but no AA fonts then :( Im a AA junkie here. Anyway I'll try compiling the qt with beta2 and see if I can fix the Xft issue anyway. ~Mike

Patches? - Vadim - 2002-02-14

It takes a lot of time to download the source with a 33K modem. Are there patches anywhere? I don't see any on the announcement page.

Re: Patches? - someone - 2002-02-14

Why don't you use CVS or CVSUP?

Re: Patches? - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

Or why don't you bite the bullet and take a few days to actually download it. I remember when I was on a 33.6 modem and I downloded linux ISOs. Everyone who has a 33.6 modem now would *never* think of doing that, why not? As long as your ISP gives you unlimited time, it's all good :)

Dose your phone company have free local calls? - Forge - 2002-02-15

Unlimited time from the ISP is good. However I pay the equivalent of U$ 1/2 cent per minute for the phone call to the ISP. That means more than $8 to stay online for 24 hours. In other words cheapbytes is cheaper. I still use dialup for CVS since there realy isn't an alternativwe.

Re: Dose your phone company have free local calls? - nat - 2002-12-24

how can i get unlimited wireless internet, tel,fax for $9/month?

Suggestion to the site admins - Neil Stevens - 2002-02-14

Save everyone some trouble and replace the comment feature with a random whine generator. Or, ahem, require people to put a name behind their posts.

Re: Suggestion to the site admins - ac - 2002-02-14

Quit whining about whining! Please, we need a free.whining.kde.org!

Re: Suggestion to the site admins - Rob Kaper - 2002-02-14

Bah, I like it when Neil whines. Often he has a good point and in the other cases his sarcasm has humour. We don't need a free.whining.kde.org, we need freekde.org again. :-)

kde myths - joe99 - 2002-02-14

<<a href="mailto:trolls@kdenews.org">snip</a>> (troll researched and confirmed)

Don't feed the troll... - Thorsten Schnebeck - 2002-02-14

better feed the Trolls ;-)

Re: Don't feed the troll... - Thorsten Schnebeck - 2002-02-14

Ok, I tried it, but .... :-( I wonder if there will be one day a troll does not get any response....?

Re: kde myths - Janne - 2002-02-14

And the point of your post is? Why not let KDE-users use their desktop. If Gnome is so good, why don't you just pity us because we use "inferior" desktop, while your Gnome-desktop is "better". If Gnome is so good, it should be able to stand on it's own. It doesn't need people like you, and it doesn't need posts such as yours. Or do you just seem bitter and threatened because KDE does so well? I have tried both, and I prefer KDE. Gnome just doesn't do it for me.

Re: kde myths - - E - - 2002-02-14

Hmm.. Gnome IS ABLE to stand on its own. It is the default desktop environment for RedHat, as well as Solaris if I'm not mistaking. I know, I know.... This time, it was KDE that were bashed by a gnome fan.... Usually, it is the KDE folks that are complaining about Gnome (at least in my mind). Although, both desktop environments are really good, I find gnome to be less bloated (i.e. faster) and better looking. I'm sure that most KDE trolls complaining about gnome have never tried Ximian Gnome, which is a very nice implementation of Gnome. I guess, most users (particularly new users) are using KDE, which is default desktop environment for many (most?) distributions. KDE is fine, and if you are happy with it, thats fine. But people don't "use" desktop environments, the use applications. There's no way that linux will be a common desktop operating system, without good applications. And here the KDE community fails. I find none of the KDE applications particular useful, especially compared to GTK/Gnome counterparts. I agree with the original posting: Mozilla/Galeon beats Konqueror ABiword/Gnumeric(and openoffice) beats Koffice, which lacks to many feature.. .. .. And the list goes on and on... Offcourse, with the libs installed, you can run "any" applications on both desktops, but many gnome/gtk apps work better on gnome. Finally, even though KDE was initiated before gnome, and even though KDE has a higher version number (being 2.2 or 3.0 beta), this do not mean that they are superior or anything (I've heard this too many times).

Re: kde myths - Janne - 2002-02-14

"Usually, it is the KDE folks that are complaining about Gnome (at least in my mind)." That's not the impression I get in places like linuxtoday.com and the like. Usually there are people flaming KDE and Trolltech and arguing about the license of Qt (still!). People often compare Trolltech to Microsoft saying things like "You must not give TT the power over Linux! Don't use KDE!" While both camps have individuals who flame the "other" project, you must admit that KDE has been treated unfairly in the past (RMS's "You must beg for forgiveness" was just the tip of the iceberg). Ironically, both projects co-exists peacefully, it's the users who fight. Well, I tried both Gnome and KDE, and I liked KDE more. The moment Gnome gets better than KDE (from my perspective. I'm sure there are people out there who find Gnome better for reasons of their own) I will switch. But I just don't see that happening anytime soon, if ever.

Re: kde myths - Gonzalo Fernández - 2002-02-16

The only way that Gnome could some day get better than KDE is to write it all again from scratch. It's the only way MacOS got unbloated... seems to me that Gnome 2 is a patch for 1.4 which was a patch for 1.2. That's why Gnome gets slower and slower as its version number increases. Not to say Nautilus. A good app to suck resources and not getting the job done. Try to cut/copy and paste a directory... The only good feature I could recall from Nautilus is the "News" tab. I personally was a Gnome fan myself, since I got to Linux, back in 1999. From 3 months now, I only use KDE and love it. Downturns on KDE: 1. Look and Feel is so branched! Colors, Window Behavior, Style, Window decoration, Theme Manager, Icons... Somebody could write a book "Customizing KDE look for Dummies" or "Teach yourself KDE look 'n' feel in 24 hours". Maybe that's why almost nobody creates themes for KDE. 2. KOffice is not ready yet KDE rocks

Re: kde myths - someone - 2002-02-14

Gnome will be default desktop environment for RedHat for Solaris, someday - will be interesting how soon after Gnome 2.0. In which points is Galeon better in using Gecko than Konqueror when using Gecko? Only compare similar programs, like GUIs for rendering engines. And OpenOffice beats the so-called "Gnome Office" patch work. Many applications you mention were born earlier than Gnome or KDE, so no suprise they are more sophisticated.

Re: kde myths - Bernd - 2002-02-15

> ...for Solaris, someday A .Net based Gnome 3. I think this is the dream of Sun :-)

Re: kde myths - dave - 2002-02-15

see <A HREF=http://www.gnome.org/gnome-office/> gnome office website </A>, and you'll see that openoffice its actually classified as part of gnome office.

Re: kde myths - BC - 2002-02-15

This is a true point. I personnally find KDE the better Desktop (love that alt-F2 thing! - why isn't there a Gnome equivalent?) and konqueror the best file-manager and general viewer, but all my favorite applications (Evolution, Scigraphica, Galeon, OpenOffice) are Gnome/GTK.

Um - Um - 2002-02-20

If KWord was so bad, I don't know how I manage to use this old copy of KWord 0.8 (KDE 2.0.0pre). All I need to do is type some text, put a bit of bold, italic, centering, or indenting in, define a few styles, save and print.

Re: kde myths - - E - - 2002-02-14

repost

Re: kde myths - About Ximian - 2002-02-14

Gnome started for one reason and one reason only: RMS didn't agree with the KDE developers' interpretation of the GPL wrt the QT library. Gnome was set up with the intention of creating FUD to delay the uptake of the best thing to ever happen to desktop Linux and to bluff and bully the KDE crowd into getting the QT licencing changed. Yes, you heard it right, Gnome was *deliberately* started to be "bickering, competing and incompatible" and to stop Linux having a single desktop standard if that standard was to be KDE. The licence issue is *long* in the past. That out of the way, the Gnome crowd should have had to decency to either scrap Gnome completely (as did those working on the Harmony project, which was developing a GPL QT clone) so we could unite behind KDE or keep Gnome going as a low key longer-term hacker R&D project like Enlightenment. But no, we had to keep the ball rolling didn't we. Why, given the adverse impact this has had on Linux and other target platforms? NIH syndrome partly; a lot of big egos (many in the US) were beaten to the punch by a bunch of (mainly) German students. And the fact that it relies on an existing library means that big egos who want to reinvent the universe can't develop their own object library; they have to do something useful. But the main reason, irony of ironies, is that it is LGPL rather than KDE's GPL; yes folks, the desktop that began as *THE* GNU free desktop now boasts that it is more commercial-friendly. That's why Sun and HP are putting money into it. Guarantees success? Ah, look at CDE... Gnome is an expensive, deliberately divisive vapourware project that should have been scrapped after the QT licence changes if the principals involved had any sense of decency or any *REAL* committment to free software. It continues because a bunch of pricks can't admit that they were wrong and continue to put their own giant egos ahead of the development of desktop Unix. Meanwhile KDE continues to release in its usual methodical fashion while Gnome 2 stays as FUD. ("You may think KDE's kewl, but wait till you see Gnome 2!") Pardon me while I puke... Gnome and the bastards who've hyped this piece of vapourware and tried to sabotage KDE for the last five years can go to Hell! Who needs Microsoft trying to pull the rug from under the free Unix's when you've got this lot! (Yes, that includes RMS, who is responsible for initiating and encouraging this debacle). To paraphrase the end of RMS's infamous letter of "forgiveness" to the KDE developers: Go KDE!!!

Re: kde myths - Loranga - 2002-02-14

Yep, I wonder where GNOME had been without all the venture captial which was available between 1998-2000. Where had Mozilla been? Where had Ximian been? Where had Eazel (!) been? Where had gtkhtml2 been?

Re: kde myths - Paul Boddie - 2002-02-14

Konqueror has certainly come a long way despite not getting the millions of dollars of investment that Mozilla and Nautilus enjoyed. You certainly do get value for money from KDE developers. ;-)

Re: kde myths - About Ximian - 2002-02-14

Actually I have a feeling venture capital would mess KDE up. It is good that KDE is not attached to one corporation, like Gnome is, where most of their developers are paid by Ximian and will eventually be out of jobs as Ximian has no business plan that is viable.

Re: kde myths - pokey - 2002-02-15

Remember the Corel scare? Man that was close :)

Re: kde myths - someone - 2002-02-14

Mozilla and OpenOffice would also be there without venture capital. They are both supported by big companies and by their previous development teams.

Re: kde myths - Loranga - 2002-02-15

Maybe OpenOffice, but why Mozilla? Hasn't the most parts been paid by Netscape? (See http://home.netscape.com/newsref/pr/newsrelease577.html) Didn't Netscape Communications Corp. (NASDAQ:NSCP) receive any venture capital? But even if Mozilla nowadays are supported by a big company, how much money has Mozilla/Gecko development costed? Compare it with the cost of Konq/KHTML...

Re: kde myths - GnomeSinks.com - 2002-02-15

You're so right... However, if Gnome should disappear we would miss a lot of (computer) humor. Imagine you're running a deb potato, and try (for fun, before dist-upgrading to woody...) to add the ximian source. Now let's do a little: dpkg -l "libgal*". pn libgal-data <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) pn libgal-dev <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) pn libgal0 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) pn libgal1 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) pn libgal11 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) pn libgal12 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) pn libgal13 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) ii libgal14 0.14-ximian.2 GNOME Applications Library pn libgal18 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) ii libgal19 0.19-ximian.1 GNOME Applications Library un libgal2 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) pn libgal3 <néant> (aucune description n'est disponible) ii libgal6 0.7-ximian.2 GNOME Applications Library ii libgal7 0.8-ximian.1 GNOME Applications Library ii libgal8 0.9.1-ximian.1 GNOME Applications Library So what do we have now: a library that does something its name does not clearly states, so it's just ANOTHER GNOME LIBRARY. It's not an old one, since it was not present at the early days (I was there at that time). How come the API change everyday so that it's already at it's 19th ver !!!! kdelibs3 should be so deprecated :) But what's cool, is that the API changes so fast (Gnome developpers don't think, again I know some of them by mail, they just "CODE AND SEE"), that each app relies on a separate ver of such an API. So a fresh install brings you all the shit AT ONCE. I'll stop here, but just say that if some candid people think libgnome32 means it's 32bits, there's also libgnome31 :) I said I should stop... though I can't resist to point you to one the best gnome jokes: http://lists.eazel.com/pipermail/nautilus-list/2001-August/004978.html PS (to the original troll author): Red-Carpet is definitely a winner on debian systems. If Gnome (valuable, those who know C++) developpers would have contributed to KDE _apps_ the open source community would be even happier.

TROLL:Gnome system - Moritz Moeller-Herrmann - 2002-02-15

Great stuff, Nautilus performance analysis by Alan Cox... Even better are the replies: (real quote!): "Nautilus won't have its own font handling at all if we do the GNOME 2 port well, so this might just go away on its own as we port to GNOME 2." Now that is what I call a cunning plan! (the quote is about a font being reloaded millions of times every time you oppen your home directory....) What do we learn? Gnome has no global font handling at the moment.

Re: TROLL:Gnome system - dave - 2002-02-15

NO, we learn that nautilus implemented (optional) smoothed fonts and pictures before the rest of the gnome desktop (or kde)

Re: kde myths - Craig - 2002-02-15

That is the best Summary that I've read on the subject good job. Its funny how the obvious has escaped so many. The "choice" arguement is the one that I enjoy. As if they want people to have a "choice". If it was up to RMS there would be no choice just GNU. Craig

Re: kde myths - About Ximian - 2002-02-16

I am glad you liked that summary. I read it on slashdot and saved it to my hd to educate others about Gnome. DEATH TO GNOME!

Re: kde myths - andrew - 2002-02-14

I agree with the above post that it's best not to feed the trolls. I am a GNOME fan myself, but I respect KDE. GNOME gets its fair share of trolls too, and encouraging the trolls doesn't seem to work ;-). Good luck to KDE and ignore joe99 (or whomever). He doesn't represent true GNOMErs. Cheers, andrew

Re: kde myths - Thomas Fjellstrom - 2002-02-15

I agree, but just flipped around :) Im a KDE user, but respect GNOME. I used to use GNOME all the time. But When I first decided to use KDE, KDE was much prettier than GNOME. Although that is changing I still prefer KDE. But really only cause Im used to it.

Re: kde myths - David - 2002-02-15

I don't really understand this silly war between different groups anyway.... i mean i don't care if someone says Gnome is better or KDE is better.. bla bla bla.... i use KDE because I like it. I like the way you look, I like the way you move - KDE..... so is this just a childs desperate call for attention?? as we all can see from the replies it's a succéss! USE whatever you like but don't bother with these silly wars will ya! Look at all the energy lost for this crap.... it could have gone into coding, translating etc.....Just my thoughts!

Re: kde myths - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-15

:: I don't really understand this silly war between different groups anyway. I don't like it, nor do I think it is anything by juvenile, but I do understand it. It's the same impulse that causes people to root for their favorite sports team, or for the kind of car they bought. It can blind them to the problems with the thing they have affiliated with (and that applies to us KDE users just as much). It's absurd, to a certain point - I love playing sports, but I've never been much of a sports fan, following teams that I'm not actually on. Never saw the point. But it is a popular pasttime, and this is the exact same thing. -- Evan

Re: kde myths - Brat Pitt - 2002-02-15

hello there, i am mainly gnome user and migrated to gnome 2 some das ago. i must say that doing this was a hard task. i dont want to sound like a troll nor do i want to rant shit but here the problems that occoured: - you need to install nearly all programming languages available on your system only to get gnome 2 compiled. often you ask yourself 'why?'. example gnome 2 has only 1 python file that is required to get a basic gnome 2 installation. i am no python programmer nor am i interested in python but you are forced to install python to get gnome 2 compiled because that one fucking file requires it. i mean ok gnome is a programming language independant project and i respect it. but if someone wants to code python gnome applications then its ok but i dont need to install it. so the basic target of compiling gnome 2 from CVS terribly sucks, bad planned stuff. - gnome 2 got a shitload of new libraries and modules that you need to compile its mainly a complete BREAKUP of previous gnome 1 currently the CVS looks more than a warfield than really usable, not to mention all the problems, bugs etc. and if you look at their roadmap then gnome 2 should be done middle of march, this is exactly 30 days from today on (15 Feb. 2002). i doubt and seriously i really doubt that they get a working DESKTOP done until that time. at the end there is no TESTCASE possible. - gnome 2 development plattform SUCKS yes it suck terrible. well sounds tolling but well lemme explain. - CVS module A requires autoconf 2.13, automake 1.3 to get the scripts set up correctly. - CVS module B requires autoconf 2.50, automake 1.4 to get the scripts set up correctly. - CVS module C requires autoconf 2.52, automake 1.5 to get the scripts set up correctly. seriously well planned. not to mention that there is no single letter written in the README's or INSTALL files that at least detail the requirements correctly. no you need to play trivia with the configure.in files. not to mention that the buildscripts are so broken at the moment that a lot of autogenerated files must be made manually e.g. make gnome-mokka.h only to get the file. now result: if i compare the above stuff with the current CVS of KDE3 and QT3 then i must say 'well it takes some hours to compile but at least it compiles' even the testphase for kde 3 seem to be longer for me than that for gnome 2. i think that after KDE 3 comes finally out its probably the better decission for people who wants a desktop. issue commercial companies: attentive readers of gnome mailinglist will find out that a lot of SUN people behave like they were owners of GNOME. e.g. you get strange looking emails from them with directives and orders. example: 'we want this and we want that' sure if they pay fine for gnome then why not. same for ximian and their sick roadmap with .NET i mean a lot of gnome developers got so pissed that they wanted to cut off the head of miguel de icaza because of the shit shouting out on reports and other crap. issue evolution: evolution is a nice pim for gnome, probably the best on the market right now but it has a lot of issues. the new current CVS uses .NET technology already because they added some more dependencies to it like SOUP. gnome development community itself: i havent see so many people on one place that carry their nose that high in the air i wonder how they still see their own road when they walk. hope none of them hit a wall by mistake. mainly patches welcome but stay out of our community. no ? you dont want to stay out ? you are a troll +b !*ruediger*@* (this is a fake ident) but as i always said pride comes before the fall. gtk 2 matures gnome, the gimp matures gnome: no not today but i see it comming, all these people hung out on the same channel and influences them. a lot of people dont like desktops and really get pissed by the idea that they cant use simple gtk applications anymore because of the big dependency. well oki yes.. yes... yes you can say, hum install packs i dont care but thats not the point a lot of these people are EXPERTS (well no one is really stupid if he/she decides for linux, so its no need to make people more stupid in the public as they in reality are) besides its a known and most used phrase of the gnome developers "why do you want to compile, a normal user should use RPM's or DEB's".. excuse me isnt it open source ? like SOURCECODE ? like 'i want to tweak' ? so why the fuck does some of the 'usability sun or redhat suckers' come up with that shit ? either help or shut the fuck up. oki now some sentences to kde: well i always eye on kde and to say the truth, 'yes kde is more usable' it is better thought, better planned and kde 3 offers programs already that you can use for daily work. look at gnome after the gnome 2 release comes out, then where are the apps ? they still needs to get ported (if not dead already) i mean i have a nice sweat desktop and a shit on it. using nautilus to watch pron pictures all the day is not what i call serious work. kde 3 comes with so many applications, more than my heart can carry. but on the otherhand kde has some sideeffects that makes me avoid using it. e.g. no 'the gimp' i dont like the idea (i am selfspeaking here) to mix widgetsets, thats what i have done 7-8 years back on linux and it made me sick. i want a unified desktop (thats the reason for a desktop) and i want unified applications. now kde offers a lot of applications. but the reason why people more and more decide to use gnome instead of kde is simple because of the gimp and because of the possiblility to hack in 'C'. at least they are my reasons. but neverthless KDE 3 will make it. now why comes that a gnome user says this. its simple because of all the applications. now i tested gnome 2 what do i get. nothing. the same applications, same gnome utils, some ui refered changes but basically a gnome 1 desktop (nothing new) oki from the coding point of view a lot of shit changed (no doubt) but apps. where are the apps. its the same like buying a xbox with 1 game it makes no fun so i better go for the old well known playstation 2 with 200 games. its simple. not only that kde 3 has a longer roadmap, no there are already so many applications available for it because a lot of people had the time porting it. you guys on KDE dont need to worry, gnome may become good but it never touches KDE you guys dont only offer KDE on the release day, you also know that people get the applications for it. unfortunately its not the case for GNOME.

Re: kde myths - Iain - 2002-02-17

> the new current CVS uses .NET technology already because they added some more > dependencies to it like SOUP. Let's see (as I added this dependancy) a) Soap is not a .net technology. b) Evolution uses libsoup.so. libsoup.so is simply an HTTP transfer library and has nothing to do with SOAP. Plus you'll find autoconf 2.52 and automake 1.4p5 will compile all of the gnome 2 desktop platform. If another application wants to use automake 1.5, take it up with them.

Re: kde myths - Thomas - 2002-02-14

there has been no kde myth at any time. (at least none i know of...) Well, there has been no gnome myth either. These Gnome/Gtk apps are all not bad... and nobody said, they are bad. They are all o.k. Me thinks, kde just looks nicer, feels better, ...so what ?

Re: kde myths - Monkey Beater - 2002-02-14

I love it when softare products compair their latest beta to 6 month old software. Truth be known, our latest Betas kick Gnome 2s arse... Gnome 2 is 2 year old ideas rewritten. Although I give the Gnomes credit that Gnome 2 is very similar to KDE 2.0. So maby in 4 more years we will see some of the features in KDE 3. Is there a reason why Sun did not demo Gnome on any of there systems at LWE? Well official response from SUN was it was too embaresingly slow on a Ultra... and it crashed alot. They did say they had it running on a PC though for demo of OpenOffice. Wasnt Gnome suppose to be their default desktop? As for dists supporting KDE over Gnome, did you ever wonder why? Its not like the KDE PR machine is strong arming them. There is no company to sell the desktop all pretty and pollished. Could it be maby KDE was technicly better? Could it be that secretly we have been sneaking RPMs into their dists? No the truth is Gnome died before it got started and as soon as RedHad abandons them, the project will drift off into the land of the Berlin project. I will not even get into the issue that the KDE project is PURE community. There are no companies that manage it, there are no people to guide it. Unlike Gnome, we dont have a company saying "We will support <insert random buzzword technology>" We just have developers who implement good ideas. So in short monkey boy, you kids lost, go take your toy and go home.

Re: kde myths - Andy "Storm" Goossens - 2002-02-14

Talking about RedHat... The next RedHat release (7.3, 8.0, whatever...) will have KDE support! Now, they only really care about GNOME. I guess they found out users want some focus on KDE too. OK, that was inside information. Don't tell anyone :-)

Re: kde myths - someone - 2002-02-14

What shall "KDE support" be? The last RedHat release already included KDE desktop as alternative to Gnome afaik.

Re: kde myths - Andy "Storm" Goossens - 2002-02-14

Try asking a question about KDE or send an email or ... If you get a good answer, you're lucky :-) With the new release, try doing it again. The chance you will get a good answer, will be higher. Not much, but higher :-) Support is more than "putting it on the CD because somebody may want to install it".

Re: kde myths - coco - 2002-02-17

I'm testing RH 8.0 beta 1 (not public beta - codename: Hampton)... Nothing is changed regarding KDE - GNOME is there on default - same as RH 7.X.. OTOH - CUPS is included on the CD although not installed by default :( CoCo

Re: kde myths - Rinse - 2002-02-15

Did anyone of you notice that RH 7.1 has screenshots of KDE 2.2 on their boxes? No sign of Gnome there By the way, I always thought that OpenOffice/StarOffice and Mozilla used their own toolkits, not Gnome or GTK. They don't integrate with Gnome in any way. Rinse

Red Hat box - Navindra Umanee - 2002-02-15

No, this can only be a German/Europe thing in my opinion. I only saw GNOME screenshots on the Red Hat version available here in North America. -N.

Re: Red Hat box - Rinse - 2002-02-15

Well, it is on the boxes spreaded in The Netherlands. RH 7.0 or earlier has Gnome as screenshots, newer versions KDE Rinse

Re: Red Hat box - Navindra Umanee - 2002-02-16

Great stuff. :) Cheers, -N.

Re: kde myths - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

First off, Mr. Joe Shmoe we understand that KOffice needs work. I've never commonly heard people say that KWord owns joo, etc. If you want it better, contribute (Ohh, I forgot, you need to get your mouth off of Gnome's ass first). Secondly, Konqueror *is* more standards compliant. No, I'm not talking about "who can render this webpage better", because those two aren't related most of the time. I've seen a few webpages that actually have mozilla specific table tags in them!!! That isn't a standard, because last time I checked Mozilla doesn't make the standards. I would give you an example website, but they recently removed that mozilla specific code from it, but chances are, if Mozilla still promotes that, they aren't 100% standards compliant. Sure, Evolution "rul3z" if you like big bloated pieces of shit that suck up resources like you suck on Gnome's ass. Gimp, I'll agree, that is a good program that I use daily and we're (KDE) all waiting for Gimp to separate its frontend from its backend (it's planned for a future release, mahahaha!). Red Carpet, ohh please, my distro handles that just fine thank you very much. XChat, well, there's Kvirc for that. XMMS quite honestly isn't special (Noatun is, though). And I'm not even going to continue because the rest don't deserve mentioning. Gnome is losing. No, it isn't dead. No, you don't have to use KDE. Hell, most of the distros that have KDE installed and used by default still use GTK for their setup tools (SuSE is one of the exceptions, though). So they haven't lost yet. (The only reason distros use GTK is because of the fact that they have lazy coders that want to use Perl and Python, pfft). Sure, I took your flaimbait, but lets see how well I did at flaming you right back.

Re: kde myths - Paul Boddie - 2002-02-14

> XMMS quite honestly isn't special (Noatun is, though). Not on my install of KDE 2.2.1, it isn't. Noatun tends to start up very slowly, spontaneously play things off the playlist, and eat CPU time like nothing else I've ever seen. It becomes necessary to switch to a console, "ps -ef | grep noatun", and kill the thing. > (The only reason distros use GTK is because of the fact that they have lazy > coders that want to use Perl and Python, pfft). I got the opposite impression, in fact. ;-) But if this wasn't sarcasm, then by all means go ahead and waste your time writing several 100KLOC of application code in C/C++. One day you might actually ship your application (well after those "lazy coders" have shipped theirs).

Re: kde myths - dave - 2002-02-15

similar experiences here, i've never had noatun play a whole file without crashing - nice idea though.

Re: kde myths - oliv - 2002-02-14

while I think the original post you are replying to is a troll, I have to disagree with some of your posts, but I will argument my opinion. >I've never commonly heard people say that KWord owns joo, etc A few days ago, on this website, a KDE developer was spreading the myths that the troll mentionned. http://dot.kde.org/1013130688/1013178940/1013182932/1013192225/1013205281/ When such no senses come from a KDE developer, they automatically have a "official statement" dimension, even if they are not official. That's the same when Miguel De Icaza starts trolling. He is not entitled to speak for Gnome developers, but the results is people have the impression the whole Gnome community has trolled. >Secondly, Konqueror *is* more standards compliant. The test suites I see on the internet about standard compliance place Mozilla as number one, followed by IE for Mac, Opera and konqueror, and far far away, IE for Win32 and old Netscape 4. here are some links: 1- The evil test suite: http://www.bath.ac.uk/~py8ieh/internet/eviltests/ The results are here: http://www.bath.ac.uk/%7Epy8ieh/cgi/listresults.pl?ID=ETS 2- PNG home page - up to date http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngapbr.html or nice PNG test pages: http://entropymine.com/jason/testbed/pngtrans/ http://entropymine.com/jason/testbed/alphagamma/ >Sure, Evolution "rul3z" if you like big bloated pieces of shit that suck up resources like you suck on Gnome's ass I'll stop here, as from this point, your mail is starting to be a troll.

Re: kde myths - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

Actually, the whole reply was a troll. If you read my last comment, it's a little more clear. Hell, we try our hardest, and people like him just trying to make us disgruntled makes me angry (not to mention everything else going on in my life). Ohh well.

Re: kde myths - Kobzar - 2002-02-15

I understand you. I was a Gnome user for some time now and I recently switched to KDE "to give it a try". When I first had to choose, I had chosen Gnome just for the stupid eye-candy thing (nobody is perfect). After some months playing with KDE, I just have to admit that it's much better than Gnome as a desktop. It's more powerful, much more stable, Konqueror is just outsanding (it's the best manager I never used...), the tools are more polished... just to name a few. However, and without any criticism to the developers who work so hard, I just have the feeling that Gnome has more 1st class applications than KDE to run on a desktop that is (ironically) by far inferior to KDE. The Gimp ust GTK, and so do Evolution, Gnumeric and GnuCash. And these are 4 applications I really like. Sure, kmail, kalendar, knotes are cool, but I must confess that I like the integrated approach of Evolution. I would love to see these appz unified for KDE too. Besides, I love the feature called vfolder in Evolution. I also think that Gnumeric is a great app and the best spreadsheet for Linux at the moment (yes, I found it better that SCalc). KOffice is very promising and the developers made an outstanding job in a very short amount of time (which is very promising), but I don't think it's mature enough yet to replace StarOffice or an app like Gnumeric. Last but not least, I would spent my bucks for Kapital, but as far as I know, you can't event generate Graphs and reports when GnuCash offers all of these features for free. As a summary, I find KDE the best Desktop I ever used and all the tools provided with it are first-class appz that have no equivalent on the Linux desktop. But it looks like major "matured" appz (Gimp, Gnumeric, GnuCash, Evolution....) are written using GTK. But that's just my personal opinion ;-> Cheers, Kobzar

Re: kde myths - someone - 2002-02-14

> When such no senses come from a KDE developer, they automatically have a "official statement" dimension, even if they are not official. That's the same when Miguel De Icaza starts trolling. He is not entitled to speak for Gnome developers, but the results is people have the impression the whole Gnome community has trolled. Miguel at least had a central position in Gnome development. I'm not sure if there is this one person in the KDE community, but I'm sure it's in particular _not_ Geiseri.

Re: kde myths - Sashmit B. Bhaduri - 2002-02-15

Well, standards compliance is all well and dandy, but in reality, most web designers don't really care. The real standards compliance in the real world is how well a browser renders a page similiar to IE on windows. I know this is broken and all, but I think this is what Konqueror developers should focus on.

Re: kde myths - Paul Boddie - 2002-02-14

joe99, your insecurity is showing! Whatever made you post such a rant? :-)

Re: kde myths - Tim - 2002-02-14

:-)

Just use OpenOffice - OpenOffice.org user - 2002-02-14

I don't see the use of this argument anymore. I installed the latest build of OpenOffice.org, which is build 641 and was dumbstruck. After using it for the afternoon and opening up my most complex Word and Excel documents with near perfect results (Out of the scores of documents I opened, one document had one page break missing, everything else was perfect), I have uninstalled MSOffice and am using OpenOffice exclusively. My suggestion is, stop whining about KOffice / Gnome-Office and simply use OpenOffice. It works ... TODAY!

Re: Just use OpenOffice - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

/me looks around Anyone getting a feeling this is the same troll? [grin]

Re: kde myths - ABC - 2002-02-14

Sure, all that - and you /still/ can't do basic things like insert an image into Gnumeric, or switch your default mail handler in Mozilla. And sorry, GTK is still ugly compared to Qt. KDE looks great out of the box. GNOME looks...not bad, but not particularlly good. I've been through dozens and dozens of GTK themes, and have yet to find one that comes anywhere near the speed or quality of the standard KDE look.

I don't want to put graphics into Gnumeric! - Leon Brooks - 2002-04-15

> you /still/ can't do basic things like insert an image into Gnumeric That's supposed to be a disadvantage? One printing firm I support gets layouts supplied to it in that most appropriate of publishing formats, (tahdaah!) Microsoft Excel... no, thanks, export as a table to something designed for laying stuff out, and add your graphic there. If Gnome's half of what it's supposed to be (and the same goes for KSpread through KDE) this should be simple to automate. If it isn't, get coding!

who you calling tacky? - Pablo Liska - 2002-02-15

maybe you dont know how to configure your colors, but check out this screenshot of a non-tacky liquid (from mosfet). this can be reproduced with a combination of patches (pablorg / button patch) from kde-look.org

Re: kde myths - Craig - 2002-02-15

Myth your not a total loser. Truth your just another RMS/FSF pathetic Troll.

Re: kde myths - Daniel Stone - 2002-02-15

Nothing more than a stupid troll who also cross-posted to DebianPlanet. Yeah, he has some good points; I use AbiWord and Gnumeric close to daily. I don't care, I'm not religious. KDE works for me, I like KDE; I was in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time and I became its maintainer. GNOME people are excellent, as are KDE. To summarise one very senior GNOME person: "None of us have anything against each other, it's just the stupid trolls on Gnotes and the Dot. I wish they'd FOAD." I wish they'd FOAD, too. Trolls, FOAD. And KDE people, if you're thinking about being l33t on Gnotes: don't. It's stupid, and wins no friends. In fact, everyone will think you a dickhead for it. I hate to be saying this, but I have no doubt that someone will troll Gnotes soon. *sigh*. -d

Re: kde myths - Anonymous - 2002-02-15

> Nothing more than a stupid troll who also cross-posted to DebianPlanet. In the /. thread about KDE 3.0 Beta 2 he posted it at least four times. :-(

GNotes - Navindra Umanee - 2002-02-15

Well, first of all it's Gnotices :-), and second, Gnotices is a censored/moderated forum like LinuxToday and has been for many months now. This is probably another reason why more trolls have moved here. Cheers, -N.

Re: GNotes - Carg - 2002-02-15

Censorship and Moderation are two different things. Gnotices is not censored, but moderated. Oh, and this is not the reason you have more trolls here. The they're trolls here in the first place is because there's no system implemented to stop them. I really doubt anyone ever said "Oh, I can't troll on news.gnome.org now. So I'll go to dot.kde.org".

Re: GNotes - not me - 2002-02-15

> I really doubt anyone ever said "Oh, I can't troll on news.gnome.org now. So I'll go to dot.kde.org". You do? I have no doubt that this sort of thing happens.

Re: GNotes - ac - 2002-02-15

There seems to be _way_ less trolls out here than on most sites with these so-called anti-troll systems. Oh, and you must not have been around much, there has been a lot of cross-trolling between Gnotices and dot.kde.org in the past.

Re: GNotes - Carg - 2002-02-17

"There seems to be _way_ less trolls out here than on most sites with these so-called anti-troll systems." That's not my point. Trolls exist _everywhere_. You must do something to stop them. You can't just sit around. Look at the size of this thread for example. A lot of people got angry and they didn't have to be, if there were a moderation system. "Oh, and you must not have been around much, there has been a lot of cross-trolling between Gnotices and dot.kde.org in the past." I come only ocasionally.

Re: kde myths - Etriaph - 2002-02-15

Ok, on Gnumeric. You're comparing a product that has a team of 32 members (Gnumeric) to a product with a team of 4 members (KSpread)? For the number of people hacking away at KSpread (one of them being David Faure, who I'm sure isn't putting all his keystrokes into it) it's a far superior product. If we had the same kinda team on KSpread as we do on Gnumeric, Gnumeric would have to just quit. KDE Users don't think GTK+ is ugly, on the contrary. GTK+ theme support was added to KDE because we think the GTK themes are nice looking. We do however think that some of the GTK+ widgets (file selector anyone?) are horrible. Now, on the subject of toolbars. The GUIs that KDE developers have put together are industry standard. It's far more intuitive than GNOME applications, and as far as I'm concerned more logically considered. I think you should reconsider some of your accusations after you use KDE for a while. Now Konqueror, I mean holy crap. I don't use anything else. It's fast, it renders 99% of the HTML I find perfectly, I can view Flash animations and Java applets, what the hell else would I want to use? A web browser that doesn't integrate into my desktop (or yours for that matter, Mozilla isn't a GTK product)?. Considering KHTML and Konqueror are entirely community developed I would say they are incredible. Is KHTML and Konqueror getting better? Yes. Are they HTML 4.0/CSS Level 1/ECMAScript 1.2 compliant? Yes. Are there bugs? Well of course, and Mozilla isn't bug free either I'm sure. Look at the accomplishment, you'll understand why KDE users are so loyal. On the subject of Nautilaus, I have only one thing to say. I don't like it. I honestly, and truly, think it's unusable. When trying to open a directory of mine with 500+ mp3s in it it took about 15 seconds to parse the listing, order it, and display it. With Konq it was rather instantaneous. Mentioning Nautilaus didn't help your argument any. Now about KWord. Our list of filters are smaller, so is our list of developers, that's sort of understandable. No, and I don't really see a need to. I haven't had someone send me a .rtf file in a very long time. Can I read .doc files? Absolutely, and that's pretty good too. Will KOffice improve? Yes, it will. Do most KDE users care so much if they can read .rtf or .doc? Not too too much no, we're more interested in read .kwd files which KWord does just fine with, as it is its own format. I use KWord all the time to type up anything I need to. My Resume is in KWord format, and it prints out beautifully. When I want to show my resume to an employer, I print it to .pdf format and post it online. I have a ball. Now, your last point. I don't think GNOME is going to lose, and I don't think that's a good perspective anyhow. GNOME and KDE should continue to develop seperately and give each other friendly competition. Do I think KDE is better? Absolutely, and so do a lot of the big distros. Do I think KDE has better infrastructure in their API for developers? Damn right. It's based on a really great cross-platform GUI toolkit called Qt. Now you're right Qt isn't community developed, but I'm glad for that. It's open source and available to us, which is nice. It's commercially developed, commercially QAed by professionals. I think that's a great model. A for-profit company creating an open source product that we extend to create an open source desktop. I wouldn't want to touch the code for Qt, the folks at Trolltech have it covered. Next time you decide to come to a kde.org-based website I would suggest that you do your research first and actually consider all the facts before randomly flaming KDE. It's the best available desktop for any UNIX or UNIX like platform available today. It's not my opinion, it's a fact. GNOME is great too, but lacks what KDE has, which is power, intuitiveness, applications, clarity of common development perception (Njaard and Neil arguing excepted), organization, and a general desire to provide the very best any modern desktop should.

Re: kde myths - Anonymous - 2002-02-15

Mod this up! :-)

Nautilus IS slow - Neondiet - 2002-02-16

<<<< Nautalus was once critised as being a slow, dog, rah rah.. well it was, yeah it was slow,...but it has improved, but it seems kde users still like to think that. Well if it makes you happy. Nautalus is very themeable http://jimmac.musichall.cz/screenshots/ximian-south-metatheme.jpeg Its a welcome change away from the Windows File Manager look. >>>> What made me laugh was the web site this bozo quoted has its very own Nautilus speed poll (http://jimmac.musichall.cz) where only 3% rate it "fast enough" and a whopping 61% rate it a "slow". There's egg on your face Joe99

Re: kde myths - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-16

:: <a href="http://jimmac.musichall.cz/screenshots/ximian-south-metatheme.jpeg">ximian-south-metatheme.jpeg</a> :: Its a welcome change away from the Windows File Manager look. <a href="http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=931">http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=931</a> is the KDE port of the theme. You can also find ports of Gorilla and the Gnome 2 standard icons. I'd like to take a moment and mention the feedback I've gotten from the Gnome community since I started maintaining ports of the Gnome icons to KDE. I recieved one email from a blithering moron whom I can't quite tell if he was a KDE or Gnome user (he was using Pine). I got three emails from Gnome users thanking me for the icons so they can have their KDE apps look the same as their Gnome desktop, and six emails from KDE users saying thank you for the excellent icons. Two emails, however, were what impressed me the most. They were from Jakub himself (together with tigert, the main Gnome artists), who first asked some technical questions, and then (after I replied voicing my thanks over his implicit approval), basically said that the more options available, the better, even calling this packaging of his icons for KDE a "good thing". You can also see that the feedback on kde-look itself is overwhelmingly positive, including answering my call for help regarding a technical problem. Trolls - chew on this - you're trolling for your "teams", but your "teams" aren't competing... everybody is working towards the same goal, but it can be a shared goal. We're building houses next to each other, not fighting over a single lot. -- Evan

Re: kde myths - Navindra Umanee - 2002-02-16

What technical questions would a GNOME developer have regarding a KDE icon theme? Just curious -- good work! Cheers, -N.

Re: kde myths - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-16

He just asked the method I used to convert from Vector to bitmaped icons. In that email, he also said it was good to see them available for KDE users too. That email made up for a lousy day that day. -- Evan

Re: kde myths - andrew - 2002-02-17

Well said, Evan! I agree wholeheartedly. ~andrew

Re: kde myths - Jesper Juhl - 2002-02-18

Sounds like you don't like KDE very much. Well, there's a simple solution to that - don't use it. It seems that you are much more fond of Gnome and favor various GTK apps over the QT equivalents - so use them. It's (still) a free world so you can just pick and choose. Go with what you like best. But don't beat on others becourse they happen to like something different. /Jesper

Re: kde myths - KDE Developer - 2002-02-19

Are you on crack? Or just solvents?

techno pimp - ch - 2002-02-14

to the guy who build the deb's for debian : could you not make a system to make daily builds from the whole kde thing, if it does not compile out of the box ok , but some snapsshots have to compile out of the box. it would be very nice for devel work, and it would be no more work than to write a script. greetings and have fun with the debian packages and your gf, :D ch

Re: techno pimp - someone - 2002-02-14

You haven't read previous posting: Spending the packager a fast computer may help.

Re: techno pimp - Daniel Stone - 2002-02-16

I now have SSH access to an AthlonXP 1800+, but I'm not about to suck all his bandwidth, seeing as he's been generous enough to donate use of his box. I also want to copy as little stuff as possible, seeing as stuff gets wget'ed by me at work to do final tests, then scp'ed home so it can get picked up by ftp.cs.umn.edu by rsync. Unfortunately, the link I have at home is charged by the meg, so I pay twice for every lot of KDE stuff that gets posted up. Not cheap.

Re: techno pimp - Jens - 2002-11-15

Can I speed you up by giving you access to another AthlonXP 1800+? ;-) Seriously, do you have a time frame for when .debs will be there? A week perhaps? I'd like to have a chance to report my favourite bugs before 3.1 final is out. (I'm asking what time you plan on, not that you promise anything, because I don't expect promises from a volunteer.) Thanks! :)

Problem with Mandrake RPMS - Julien Olivier - 2002-02-14

If I'm on http://dot.kde.org/1013639318/addPostingForm, typing "Enter" into the comment field just brings me to the search form as if I had clicked on "Search" ! More over, dropping a file to the Desktop doesn't make it appear. Even if you refresh the desktop. But if you log out/in, it's here ! Are those two bugs Mandrake-related or just normal bugs from a Beta version ?

IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Joe - 2002-02-14

I just tried Beta2 this morning, hoping that KMail would let me filter messages into folders on the IMAP server... but not yet it seems. This is a deal-killer for me. Back to using Mozilla-mail. All in good time right?

Re: IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Schwann - 2002-02-14

Filtering with IMAP should be done on the server, not at the client. Or do you use your IMAP-account just as POP3-account, and just download your mails? (but I would also like to see this feature...)

Re: IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Eric E - 2002-02-15

Right, but it's frequently difficult to get any sort of big mailhost to let you run your own procmail rules. I looked for simple user-space filter routines a while back and had no luck. What would be coolest is if KMail could set up procmail rules.... That'd be pretty OK.

Re: IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Roberto Alsina - 2002-02-16

Some IMAP servers have their own filtering script engine, called sieve. If your server has that, it beats the hell out of procmail :-)

Re: IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Johannes Wilm - 2002-02-16

all servers I know about run exim. now if i could just get kmail to safe its filtering information in a .filter-file on the server...

Re: IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Alejandro Vargas - 2003-04-04

All I have to say is kmail seemed to be good, but is as bad as outlook in the related to imap. Fortunatelly there are another mail clients that works ok.

Re: IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Paul - 2003-10-28

I don't think depending on the server for filtering is the right thing to do -- not every server will support sieve, etc. It seems ridiculous that kmail will filter new pop3 messages and not imap. When a new message shows up, kmail should download the header and process the filters. Sometimes it's nice to move certain messages offline. pop3 is not a solution for me either -- I use kmail on my home/main computer and use webmail when I'm away. pop3 tends to download the same messages over and over again. It isn't good enough to just download the new messages either -- if I read a message on webmail, it is no longer marked new, and it wouldn't get downloaded. Beyond filtering, kmail should also save local copies of all imap messages. When connected to the server, it should compare the headers to update any status information (replied, etc.). I hate waiting for messages to display after I've already viewed them before.

Re: IMAP support still lacking in KMail - Anonymous - 2003-10-28

You will be pleased by KMail 1.6's IMAP, including disconnected IMAP.

Web Archives disappeared? - NÉMETH Balázs - 2002-02-14

KDE 2.x series introduced an excellent feature: web archives (*.war) I loved it very very much, and I used it often. I have about 65-70 war files. But! I cant find this feature in KDE 3... Can anybody explain it? Konqueror -- otherwise -- get matured. I enjoy the browsing with it. But there is some little feature, what I miss: 1. tabbed browsing (planned for KDE 3.1) 2. Stop animations with ESC (ok, I can stop them in preferences, but it is general) 3. word selecting (and copying to clipboard) with double-click and row selecting with double-click + click 4. font size increasing/decreasing with Ctrl + / Ctrl - Are 2-3-4 planned in any version of KDE 3? Other problem: Java never started in Konqueror for me... I tried kaffe, but no succes :( The Information in KDE Control Center is very simple (ugly). For example Devices. Is it a hated area in KDE development? The KDE print subsystem is wonderful! I dont't like the obligatory folder list in KMAIL (Inbox, Sent, Drafts). These folders are always at top level, but there should be only 1 toplevel folder, named -- for example -- Local Folders/Mail (like in Mozilla), and Inbox, drafts, etc. should be subfolders inside! Is it possible? Thank you, if somebody can answer my questions....

Re: Web Archives disappeared? - Bryan Feeney - 2002-02-14

I dunno about most of that, but if you want Java in konqueror you'll need Sun's JRE (runtime environment, no compiling) - kaffe just doesn't cut it. AFAIK the JRE is 7-8MB, the full JDK is about 25MB.

kdeaddons - ac - 2002-02-14

Did you install the KDE Addons package?

Re: Web Archives disappeared? - Richard Moore - 2002-02-14

The web archive plugin is in the kdeaddons module, I guess you must have forgotten to install it. ;-) You can stop the animations from the right click menu too if you want to, and I believe you can bind this to ESC in the key bindings dialog (the same is true of the other key bindings you request). wrt java, you need a JDK >= 1.2, personally I recommend using the IBM version as it is the fastest (assuming you're on linux). Rich.

Lot of bugs... - Julien Olivier - 2002-02-14

I tested KDE-3 Beta 2 on Mandrake-8.1. Here are the issues I encountered: -KDE3 is much slower than KDE-2.2.2. Maybe packages aren't greatly optimized. -When installing from Mandrake RPMS, Kde-Pim is missing. Is it normal ? -Mandrake RPMS put a kde3.sh file in /etc/profile.d that sets the path to /opt/kde3/bin:$PATH. The problem is that, now, when you try to use KDE2, KDE3 apps are loaded instead of KDE3's ones. You have to remove this script from /etc/profile.d in order to have KDE2 work again. -The desktop doesn't seem to refresh 95% of the time. For example, if you drag a file from ~/ and drop it to ~/Desktop, most of the time it won't appear on the desktop and refreshing it by yourself won't work. You have to restart kdesktop for the file to show up on the desktop. -The KDE styles don't work anymore but that's a known bug. -In kde-look.org, on the main list of items, the thumbnails are 90% covered by the text at their right. -In dot.kde.org, you can notice a big bug when trying to post a comment: Click on the "name" field for example. Then press "Tab". The focus doesn't go to the "Email" field. Now click on the textarea and write some text. Now press "Enter" to go next line.... oups, it brings you to "http://dot.kde.org/searchForm" like if you had pressed the "search" button at the bottom of the page. -Pressing CTRL-A in a textarea selects everything... except the text in the textarea. Maybe a problem with keyboard focus in textareas. -There are some display bugs. For example, when the mouse cursor passes over a folder icon, there is a nice animation. But this animation seems to move the folder to the left, which is weird. Also, some icons seem to blink sometimes when the mouse passes over them. Apart from those problems, mostly due to the fact that it's a Beta, there are a LOT of improvements that make me hesitate between this buggy beta and the stable 2.2.2...

Re: Lot of bugs... - Frans - 2002-02-14

Hey, could you repost that in separate reports at bugs.kde.org? Thanks, Frans

Re: Lot of bugs... - Julien Olivier - 2002-02-14

I've done it already of course.

Re: Lot of bugs... - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

Actually, the KDE style not appearing is a bug that is inherited from Qt. Qt3 introduced a new type of styling engine and KDE switched to it (don't ask me why, jump on kde-devel and ask). Qt3 also has preferences for each user (stored in ~/.qt), that includes all of the styles that Qt and KDE applications use. In order for KDE applications to use the KDE styles (actually, they are Qt styles and don't rely on KDE stuff at all therefor being compatible with Qt-only applications as well) you need to run 'qtconfig' (make sure $QTDIR/bin is in your $PATH) and go to "library paths" and add $KDEDIR/lib/kde3/plugins to the list of plugins (of course translate $KDEDIR to your KDE directory). Have fun :)

Re: Lot of bugs... - someone - 2002-02-14

Why? Because KDE had to because the old Qt styling engine doesn't exists anymore. I find it great that Qt only programs can/will use KDE's styles, e.g. it's possible to run Qt Designer with KDE's .NET style applied.

Re: Lot of bugs... - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

Yes, that's right, it slipped my mind.

Re: Lot of bugs... - Moritz Moeller-Herrmann - 2002-02-14

> KDE3 is much slower than KDE-2.2.2. Maybe packages aren't greatly optimized Wow, where did you get it? We only have KDE---3-Beta2, which runs about twice as fast as KDE-2.2.2 on my SuSE7.3 system :-) Seriously 50% of the bugs you describe seem to be packaging faults and the other 50% (keyboard focus...) are known and will be adressed before KDE3.0. KDE3 is a lot faster on my system!

Re: Lot of bugs... - Julien Olivier - 2002-02-14

Aaargh... why is Suse not GPL !? I'd really like to switch to a serious distribution if there was one in GPL ! Each time I try Mandrake packages, there are BIG problems that don't appear in other packages ! And the first of all is speed. Could anyone explain me how they manage to make so bad packages ? make -f Makefile.cvs ./configure --prefix=/opt/kde3 make su -c "make install" That's not SO hard ! Why the hell can't they get correct packages ?!?

Re: Lot of bugs... - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

What part of SuSE bothers you? I'm not a guru on the licesing that SuSE used, but I'm looking at the source to yast2 on the CD. Quickly!!!! Go run out to your local BestBuy and buy it!!!! QUICK!!! :) (btw, Yast2 owns you :) )

Re: Lot of bugs... - Julien Olivier - 2002-02-14

I'll give a try to the next release. When is it planned ?

Re: Lot of bugs... - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-14

Probably in another 6 months, who knows? :) 7.3 is recent enough. Yast2's online patcher can get you up-to-date quickly anyways. It has KDE 2.2.2 on there and a few security fixes. Takes me a few minutes on my DSL

Re: Lot of bugs... - Anonymous - 2002-02-16

Rumours are, SuSE 8.0 will be released in a month with KDE 3.0 on board.

Re: Lot of bugs... - Carg - 2002-02-14

What bothers a lot of people is the YaST license. You can look at the source, but that's pretty much it. You also get the source for some Microsoft software. That doesn't mean the software is open-source or free software. See www.opensource.org and www.fsf.org. btw: Whether you or me like the license or not is irrelevant in this discussion. Thanks.

Re: Lot of bugs...(Focus-handling problems) - DrDubious DDQ - 2002-02-14

The parts about using tab and hitting enter in textareas is apparently (according to a posting I saw in kde-devel back on Feb 04) due to KHTML having broken focus handling. This is the one set of bugs that keeps me from sticking on KDE3 for normal use - I spend too much time entering data into forms as part of my daily routine. I'm surprised this bug has been present for so long (been in for months now, I think) - I'd have thought it would have affected too many people to have been left in. I don't know if it's related, but the one other annoyance I keep running into with KDE3 is trying to select and delete text, e.g. double-clicking the URL toolbar and hitting 'delete' to clear it. KDE3 seems to 'unselect' when I try to do that - I have to double-click select TWICE, then hit delete. Anybody know if this is related to the other focus-handling problems? Hopefully it'll be fixed soon - I otherwise really like what I've been seeing in KDE3...

Re: Lot of bugs...(Focus-handling problems) - DrDubious DDQ - 2002-02-14

Re: Lot of bugs...(Focus-handling problems) - Nick Betcher - 2002-02-15

No worries, already fixed :)

Re: Lot of bugs...(Focus-handling problems) - DrDubious DDQ - 2002-02-19

Hmmm. CVS as of Sunday/Monday still seems to have the same focus problems. This is a kdelibs/khtml problem, isn't it? I keep watching my "cvs up kdelibs" runs for mention of updates in khtml...

Re: Lot of bugs... - Sad Eagle - 2002-02-15

Mandrake 8.x Beta 2 RPMs are built with debug information -- as can be easily seen from the fact that the kdebase is 36MB and not the usual 12MB or so... This, of course, makes things much slower, but also means that if you have any crash reports they can be potentially more useful to developers because of more detailed stacktraces...

Who was coding that, Gandalf? - gabe - 2002-02-15

Just used Konqueror to download SuSE RPMs of Beta 2 (splitview -> Drag and Drop -> it's just so comfortable :-)). Being greeted by Kandalf, launching some Applications and working with them I wonder who did that coding. Gandalf? It must be wizardry to make a beta that fly's so fast.

thanks Waldo - David - 2002-02-15

This is just to say thanks and kudos to Waldo Bastian for his work on Konsole. A lot of my bug wishes were implemented, and it is a real joy to use this baby. Greetz and kudos to all the rest of the team, also. David

Re: thanks Waldo - alex - 2002-02-20

umm... iirc it was actually mainly stephen binner who did this work ;-)...

KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Brat Pitt - 2002-02-16

dunno, someone killed this reply some hours ago. you guys seriously dont think that i spent 30 mins and more writing this, that this should be a troll or something. if i want trolling i wouldnt waste so much time. hello there, i am mainly gnome user and migrated to gnome 2 some das ago. i must say that doing this was a hard task. i dont want to sound like a troll nor do i want to rant shit but here the problems that occoured: - you need to install nearly all programming languages available on your system only to get gnome 2 compiled. often you ask yourself 'why?'. example gnome 2 has only 1 python file that is required to get a basic gnome 2 installation. i am no python programmer nor am i interested in python but you are forced to install python to get gnome 2 compiled because that one fucking file requires it. i mean ok gnome is a programming language independant project and i respect it. but if someone wants to code python gnome applications then its ok but i dont need to install it. so the basic target of compiling gnome 2 from CVS terribly sucks, bad planned stuff. - gnome 2 got a shitload of new libraries and modules that you need to compile its mainly a complete BREAKUP of previous gnome 1 currently the CVS looks more than a warfield than really usable, not to mention all the problems, bugs etc. and if you look at their roadmap then gnome 2 should be done middle of march, this is exactly 30 days from today on (15 Feb. 2002). i doubt and seriously i really doubt that they get a working DESKTOP done until that time. at the end there is no TESTCASE possible. - gnome 2 development plattform SUCKS yes it suck terrible. well sounds tolling but well lemme explain. - CVS module A requires autoconf 2.13, automake 1.3 to get the scripts set up correctly. - CVS module B requires autoconf 2.50, automake 1.4 to get the scripts set up correctly. - CVS module C requires autoconf 2.52, automake 1.5 to get the scripts set up correctly. seriously well planned. not to mention that there is no single letter written in the README's or INSTALL files that at least detail the requirements correctly. no you need to play trivia with the configure.in files. not to mention that the buildscripts are so broken at the moment that a lot of autogenerated files must be made manually e.g. make gnome-mokka.h only to get the file. now result: if i compare the above stuff with the current CVS of KDE3 and QT3 then i must say 'well it takes some hours to compile but at least it compiles' even the testphase for kde 3 seem to be longer for me than that for gnome 2. i think that after KDE 3 comes finally out its probably the better decission for people who wants a desktop. issue commercial companies: attentive readers of gnome mailinglist will find out that a lot of SUN people behave like they were owners of GNOME. e.g. you get strange looking emails from them with directives and orders. example: 'we want this and we want that' sure if they pay fine for gnome then why not. same for ximian and their sick roadmap with .NET i mean a lot of gnome developers got so pissed that they wanted to cut off the head of miguel de icaza because of the shit shouting out on reports and other crap. issue evolution: evolution is a nice pim for gnome, probably the best on the market right now but it has a lot of issues. the new current CVS uses .NET technology already because they added some more dependencies to it like SOUP. gnome development community itself: i havent see so many people on one place that carry their nose that high in the air i wonder how they still see their own road when they walk. hope none of them hit a wall by mistake. mainly patches welcome but stay out of our community. no ? you dont want to stay out ? you are a troll +b !*ruediger*@* (this is a fake ident) but as i always said pride comes before the fall. gtk 2 matures gnome, the gimp matures gnome: no not today but i see it comming, all these people hung out on the same channel and influences them. a lot of people dont like desktops and really get pissed by the idea that they cant use simple gtk applications anymore because of the big dependency. well oki yes.. yes... yes you can say, hum install packs i dont care but thats not the point a lot of these people are EXPERTS (well no one is really stupid if he/she decides for linux, so its no need to make people more stupid in the public as they in reality are) besides its a known and most used phrase of the gnome developers "why do you want to compile, a normal user should use RPM's or DEB's".. excuse me isnt it open source ? like SOURCECODE ? like 'i want to tweak' ? so why the fuck does some of the 'usability sun or redhat suckers' come up with that shit ? either help or shut the fuck up. oki now some sentences to kde: well i always eye on kde and to say the truth, 'yes kde is more usable' it is better thought, better planned and kde 3 offers programs already that you can use for daily work. look at gnome after the gnome 2 release comes out, then where are the apps ? they still needs to get ported (if not dead already) i mean i have a nice sweat desktop and a shit on it. using nautilus to watch pron pictures all the day is not what i call serious work. kde 3 comes with so many applications, more than my heart can carry. but on the otherhand kde has some sideeffects that makes me avoid using it. e.g. no 'the gimp' i dont like the idea (i am selfspeaking here) to mix widgetsets, thats what i have done 7-8 years back on linux and it made me sick. i want a unified desktop (thats the reason for a desktop) and i want unified applications. now kde offers a lot of applications. but the reason why people more and more decide to use gnome instead of kde is simple because of the gimp and because of the possiblility to hack in 'C'. at least they are my reasons. but neverthless KDE 3 will make it. now why comes that a gnome user says this. its simple because of all the applications. now i tested gnome 2 what do i get. nothing. the same applications, same gnome utils, some ui refered changes but basically a gnome 1 desktop (nothing new) oki from the coding point of view a lot of shit changed (no doubt) but apps. where are the apps. its the same like buying a xbox with 1 game it makes no fun so i better go for the old well known playstation 2 with 200 games. its simple. not only that kde 3 has a longer roadmap, no there are already so many applications available for it because a lot of people had the time porting it. you guys on KDE dont need to worry, gnome may become good but it never touches KDE you guys dont only offer KDE on the release day, you also know that people get the applications for it. unfortunately its not the case for GNOME.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Anonymous - 2002-02-16

> dunno, someone killed this reply some hours ago. If it was deleted, why are there are now two postings of it here?

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Brat Pitt - 2002-02-16

right, this text should have been gone into the mainthread unfortunately the comment got in a subthread where i didnt want to have it gone. so if one wants to delete then please delete the other one far above.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Just a lowly kde user. - 2002-02-16

I agree with you for almost everything. However, the bit about the gnome people are stuck up applies to most KDE developers too. Forget asking them for help on IRC. Maybe the mailing lists are better though, I don't know. Its not like I go to the channels demanding help, rude, etc... I'm very polite. The #kde-users channel is no better/worse than #kde (as far as level of niceness). I'm not sure what it is about a lot of OSS projects, but the developers get this holier-than-thou attitude. They become horribly condencending and just plain rude. I'm not the only one who thinks this either. I've been in #kde-users before and other people were asking for help. Perhaps the users are just too stupid compared to the god-like developers. I'm not trying to troll, I'm just complaining about the some of the KDE developers. On IRC avoid: clee, krazikiwi, and neil (although neil can answer any question he isn't very nice). Don't avoid: Njaard

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - ik - 2002-02-17

i don't agree with your avoid list. i asked fairly stupid questions several times in the past, and they got answered nicely by persons in your avoid-list :)

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Neil Stevens - 2002-02-20

If you think #kde-users can be improved, I do hope you join us. The only reason I can answer "every question" is that I'm there enough, that I see most questions asked and answered more than once. Even if you don't know KDE very well at this point, staying in #kde-users will teach you a Lot about KDE, about how people really use KDE, not just how the developers expect KDE to be used. I never cared about being popular, so feel free to be good cop to my bad cop in #kde-users. :-)

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Gaute Lindkvist - 2002-02-16

Most of this is horrible trolling. You are not a Gnome-user, I don't believe that for a second. This whole article is just one big troll. And why are you doing it? Preaching to the choir? 1. Gnome 2 isn't even in Beta yet, and you look at it like a finished product. 2. There are some very nice build-scripts that'll let you compile the thing. Have you looked at gargnome? 3. The .NET/Mono thing is just GREATLY misunderstood. It is nothing but a very good development platform, inspired by Java and c++. Unless the Gnome-developers want it, it will never become a part of Gnome. Still, it will be a very easy way of creating Gnome-applications. If Microsoft hadn't created it, everyone would be cheering for it. Besides, the worst thing that can happen, is that Microsoft extends .NET with something patented, and Windowsapps created with .NET will no longer work under Mono. Gnomeapps developed with Mono will always work, because Microsoft has no control over it. Mono may actually make Windowsapps work perfectly under Gnome, and if it doesn't, it is still a very good development platform. I like KDE. KDE 3.0 looks great! Trolling about Gnome is not the way to promote KDE though. Keep on improving KDE instead.. the competition between Gnome and KDE is nothing but healthy. The developers on both sides know this, but some users seem not to.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Gaute Lindkvist - 2002-02-16

I even forgot about one thing: "a lot of people dont like desktops and really get pissed by the idea that they cant use simple gtk applications anymore because of the big dependency. " This is one of the worst. Gtk+-apps, you can use if you have Gtk+. Gnome-apps require a lot of gnome-libs. This is because they are GNOME-APPLICATIONS. Not Gtk+-apps. Using Gnome-libraries speeds up development, keeps memory-consumption low, because every app doesn't reinvent the wheel. If you want a Gtk+-only app, instead of a Gnome-app, then write the f*cking app yourself, or wait for someone else to do it. The EXCACT same goes for KDE or Qt-apps. Opera is a pure Qt-app and doesn't use any KDE-libs. KOffice uses lots of KDE-libs. If you want KOffice, and don't want to run KDE, then you need to install those libs. If you want a Qt-only app, instead of a KDE-app, then write the f*cking app yourself. Using KDE-libs saves app-developers time and effort, and keeps memory-consumption low, because every app doesn't reinvent the wheel. I'm sorry about overreacting to KDE-users on this fora. Most of you do not deserve such language.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Brat Pitt - 2002-02-16

aehm. dude what are you smoking ? the fact is no matter if beta or not GNOME 2 release date is end of march its now in alpha stadium but the beta should be out already (delayed). how do you think they gonna speed up shit and get everything done within this one month ? not to mention guadreck 3 is nocking on the door. i build gnome 2 thats no problem since i am involved into gnome for many years now. this doesnt change my opinion that gnome 2 starts to suck terribly. GNOME 2 will be something between KDE 1 and KDE 2 from functionallity and usabillity.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - ik - 2002-02-17

all major opensource projects have trouble getting releases out on shedule, it seems. And that includes both gnome and kde. While thats not a good thing, its certainly not a disaster.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Natalia Verde - 2002-05-23

Soy yo.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - ario - 2002-11-22

respondo en catellano. gnome2 es la bomba, las librerias gtk son la bomba, son portables, kde se puede resumir como for(;;), una puta mierda, lento, feo y windows, gnome es mas abierto mas amigable con el resto de aplicaciones, etc etc

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Navindra Umanee - 2002-02-16

Err, I don't think I intentionally killed this reply whether or not a troll. We haven't begun troll hunting season yet. I was removing duplicates though.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Carg - 2002-02-17

Everything you say about GNOME is BS: "- you need to install nearly all programming languages available on your system only to get gnome 2 compiled." That's not true. Python is only one programming language, you said "nearly any". And python is not required by GNOME 2. What happens is that if python is installed, when building the libglade library the libglade-convert program will also be installed. That script is not currently required by any desktop applications in GNOME. " - gnome 2 got a shitload of new libraries and modules that you need to compile its mainly a complete BREAKUP of previous gnome 1 currently the CVS looks more than a warfield than really usable" Wow! Is that a sentence? Anyway, GNOME has a lot of libraries. And so does KDE and every major desktop environment out there. Do a 'ls /opt/kde/lib' for crying out loud. The GNOME 2 libraris don't break GNOME 1 in anyway. You can install both the GNOME 1 and 2 libraries, even in the same prefix. "- CVS module A requires autoconf 2.13, automake 1.3 to get the scripts set up correctly. - CVS module B requires autoconf 2.50, automake 1.4 to get the scripts set up correctly. - CVS module C requires autoconf 2.52, automake 1.5 to get the scripts set up correctly." That's just plain wrong. NONE of the GNOME modules requires automake 1.5 nor 1.3. Autoconf 2.13 and 2.52 are supported (2.50 is broken, not a GNOME problem). " attentive readers of gnome mailinglist will find out that a lot of SUN people behave like they were owners of GNOME. e.g. you get strange looking emails from them with directives and orders. example: 'we want this and we want that' sure if they pay fine for gnome then why not. " The archives to all GNOME mailing-lists can be found at lists.gnome.org. I dare you to point a message where a Sun employee says 'we want this and we want that'. BTW, the Sun guys have done a wonderful job so far: they've contributed largely to the GNOME panel and added accessibility support to the applications. " evolution is a nice pim for gnome, probably the best on the market right now but it has a lot of issues. the new current CVS uses .NET technology already because they added some more dependencies to it like SOUP." SOUP is not a .NET technology, although is used by it. Evolution from CVS (HEAD) does use a free library called soap. " i havent see so many people on one place that carry their nose that high in the air i wonder how they still see their own road when they walk. hope none of them hit a wall by mistake. mainly patches welcome but stay out of our community. no ? you dont want to stay out ? you are a troll +b !*ruediger*@* (this is a fake ident) but as i always said pride comes before the fall." OMG. You're just making this stuff up. Please come back when you turn twelve. btw: to those who are wondering, GNOME 2.0 Desktop Beta has been delayed by a few days so that it will include GLIB/GTK+ 1.3.14, that has only been release today (a few minutes ago, actually).

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - rhish - 2004-04-29

Why is it that when i use kde and install software, it works. But when i try and install software on gnome i get "missing this library, and missing this one, and run this to find this cause this is in a weird place and this other program cant find it because you installed it in a weird place" KDE just works. Im sorry, but you can see a huge difference in the quality of work with KDE. Im so god damn sick of gnome asking me to hunt down libraries every fricken time i want to do something.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - kage-chan - 2002-05-19

I think I won't ever use KDE, just because of the very bad support somebody also mentioned above. I once entered the kde developers chan on the OPN, cuz I needed something about Konq, then they tell me that my questions isn't development related.... so, then I went into that damned kde-users channel (also on the OPN), and you know what? Those loosers in there were hell unfriendly. That was the most unfriendly channel I've ever joined, and also the most useless one... If I have a problem with gnome (which I really don't have) I will log into the gnomre irc server and join the ppls in #gnome, and they'll help me. Without bitching around and asking why the hell I want to do shit. And, I think that the "Peoples use gnome because of gimp" is a lie. That guy's just chickening out, because the only program he knows in gnome is probably gimp, and none of the others 'most probably). Before I've heard that the gnome and KDE community wanted to get along a bit better than before... I think that was complete bullshit (it was a news posted on this site I think). I still think that as long as the KDE developers community acts as childish as above, they'll never get better... I think the KDE ppls are thoe ones who carry their damned noses so high. You're all just envy ... If you have a problem with what I've posted here, you're welcome to join me on IRC and talk about it with me! :)

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Anonymous - 2002-05-19

You get the support you pay for. Besides there are other support ways than IRC like mailing-lists and newsgroups. Just don't desire instant help.

Re: KDE3 vs. GNOME2 - Anon - 2005-03-02

You certainly are right. I tried to implement open source in my workplace, almost had the management convinced, when Gnome released an upgrade. I showed just how easy it was to upgrade an open source product. Gnome with some help from Gettext destroyed the installation. I used the script, sent in the error report (the Gnome people sent me back a reply saying that there would be too much to read, maybe they will look at it if I reduce the size of the log, (Im not a developer, how do I know what to prune out of a log file for evaluation ?? If I knew what to look for I'D DO IT MYSELF)- or better still, perhaps I might find someone interested off-list - gee thanks guys - did I read something about noses in the air...)I STILL have not seen 2.8 working. I eventually upgraded from 1 to 2.4, after running the script and making changes, deleting and then re-adding packages, still don't have em all back. 2.4 was the best I could get, and that took 3 months of rerunning and hacking the system to get it to work. The script sucks, need mods to work - the BSD handbook tell you to partition the system with less space in /tmp than the script needs to run!. Hey just hack the script or re-partition ! No biggie if you have time to sit on your ass all day and mess with a program that you may eventually get working. I guess Gnome is just not made for a corporate environment. No support, upgrading is a nightmare and takes forever (can you imagine walking up to a user and saying, Im just going to upgrade your desktop, do you mind taking a break, just grab a coffee - for about 6 weeks!!) KDE is a bit top heavy for me, but as you state, extremely usable, easy to upgrade (I upgraded my KDE about 8 weeks quicker than my Gnome 1 - 2.4 upgrade with NO failures, with a simple portupgrade) Also, as you state, all the apps that come with KDE is like Christmas. Whatever you want to do you are good to go - office suite, browser, image, multimedia - it's a well thought out package.(almost - talking average user here, not the R&D team for Sun or W3) Unlike the competition, who seem to be attempting to catch up. Be a lot more point to that if the package was more user friendly. Gnome would make a nice environment for someone who has a great deal of time on their hands, and likes to tinker a lot, read heaps and watch text bouncing across your screen. For results or in a production environment, my recomendation is to give it a wide berth. Gnome killed the possibility of open source in my workplace, Microsoft just made it all look too easy. A rep came in, popped XP in a blank machine and viola - 20 mins later a working desktop - Gnome was still struggling through Stage 2 of 5...............Cheezed off teribly and I curse the name that said - Use Gnome, it rocks. Rocks the boat I would say. Stuck with Windows now as a direct result of Gnome and how difficult it is to use. I wish I had demonstrated with KDE (actually RAT POISON would have been better that Gnome!, it might be bland but IT WORKS), but I guess lot of people , like me, have 20/20 hindsight. I have now given up on gnome. It does NOT rock. Sorry, it just does not.

konqui freezes my whole system - HeulSuSE 7.0 - 2002-02-16

Just try to open this: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/api/ - after loading this, my whole system is frozen - mouse won't move - I can't switch to my text consoles, I even can't kill X - the only thing I can do is use SysRq-Keys. Is my system misconfigured? I thought that in Linux/Unix - in contrast to windows 9x - a crashing program woud not crash my whole system.

Re: konqui freezes my whole system - antialias - 2002-02-16

>I thought that in Linux/Unix - in contrast to windows 9x - a crashing program woud not crash my whole system.< Welcome to the club. I recently compiled Xine (latest 'stable release'), no errors during compiling process, I lunched it and experienced a total freeze, the only thing I could do was turn off my computer, but that was not all, I had to reinstall the whole system, no way to boot to console, the whole file system was broken. But 'in contrast to Windows 98' I never experience freezes when I use stable releases shiped with distros. You have to have in mind that KDE3 is beta and it is released for testing purpose and not for everyday use. The reason why developers release beta software is to test it and that testers (users) can trace bugs. So, send the bug report and be sure that your Konqi is not going to freeze your system when kde developers release KDE3 final.

Re:Do you by any chance have a savage driver? - luis - 2002-02-16

The savage driver doesn't play nice with certain programs... Opera and Xine come to mind. Anyway, the problem is not related to KDE. Go to the XFree mailing list and ask for help.

Re:Do you by any chance have a savage driver? - antialias - 2002-02-17

Yes, I have savage graphic card, and latest savage driver. > The savage driver doesn't play nice with certain programs... Anyway, the problem is not related to KDE.Go to the XFree mailing list and ask for help.< No need. I am not going to use Xine anymore. Never. I gave up watching video on my Linux box, it is too troublesome and too complicated.

Re:Do you by any chance have a savage driver? - A person - 2002-02-17

> No need. I am not going to use Xine anymore. Never. I gave up watching video on my Linux box, it is too troublesome and too complicated. Not sure what Xine is, but I have had good luck with Mplayer for playing most video formats, inc. Windows Media Player. I think its at mplayer.org

Re:Do you by any chance have a savage driver? - Bojan - 2002-02-18

AFAIK, a homepage of Mplayer is http://www.mplayerhq.hu/homepage/

Re:Do you by any chance have a savage driver? - Anonymouse - 2002-02-24

Well there you go. You're going about it all WRONG. Of course it won't get fixed if you just give up. Posting a useful bug report is the proper way to go about resolving things. Besides, it is a video card/driver issue. If the app yer usin is written to use a higher level toolkit like Qt/Motif/Gtk+ it is going to be frobbing X correctly nine times out of ten. Don't blame de app.

Re:Do you by any chance have a savage driver? - antialias - 2002-02-24

>Posting a useful bug report is the proper way to go about resolving things.< I would love it, I mean I would like to send a bug report, but I don't have any clue how to do it. When I want to see what's wrong with an application I run it through konsole, but running Xine through konsole wouldn't help much, and I don't want to take such a risk anymore. When an application crushes it is OK, when an application crushes X it is OK too, but when one application destroy entire system it is too much. It never happened with any other application before and I also run cvs versions here. >Besides, it is a video card/driver issue.Well there you go. You're going about it all WRONG.< Hm. Regards, antialias

Re: konqui freezes my whole system - me - 2002-02-16

Works here. (KDE 3 Beta2 CVS)

Buglets ... - KDE User - 2002-02-16

I just built KDE 3 beta 2, and it's pretty nice. I have a slight problem with image loading, though. It's not the common missing-qt-image-plugin problem that's been reported. Images, for the most part, load fine. However, some larger images have problems. Attached is a screenshot that shows this. The image is one of the wallpapers that came with KDE 3. Konqueror thinks it has completely loaded the image, but it's obviously not completely loaded. Small images tend to work OK, but larger ones (around 800 pixels wide, but it's kinda arbitrary!) have this cutoff problem. I've seen it with both PNG and JPEG files.

Re: Buglets ... - someone - 2002-02-17

This would be a funny bug: Try to increase "Maximum file size" in KControl/File Browsing/File Manager/Previews.

Re: Buglets ... - KDE User - 2002-02-17

Well, after experimenting some, I found out the why it's happening... If the image is much wider than the konqueror window ("much" being about 10-20 pixels it seems), it does the cutoff thing. If I expand konq wider than the visual screen, to at least the width of the image, it works without problems. Anyone else have this problem? You can open any small image with konq, then resize it to smaller than the width. Note: I don't have kdegraphics installed, so if konq utilizes kview for embedding images if it's around, this behavior may not exhibit itself.

Re: Buglets ... - tfb - 2002-02-18

I can reproduce this cutoff thing. If the image I want to view is wider than the konqueror window I get exactly what you describe. Also expanding konquerors window to the size of the image works for me. Using KDE3 Beta2.

Re: Buglets ... - Santa ;-) - 2002-02-19

use -system-png and -system-jpeg during ./configure of QT

Re: Buglets ... - KDE User - 2002-02-19

That's what I used. JPEGs don't even load at all if I don't do it that way.

Old behavior of clipboard? How? - Dieter Nützel - 2002-02-17

I'm an "old" SUN/Linux man, so... Thanks, Dieter BTW The KDE 3.0 beta2 speed (SuSE 7.3) with preempt, O(1)-scheduler, -aa VM is GREAT!

Re: Old behavior of clipboard? How? - ac - 2002-02-17

Klipper -> Preferences... -> Synchronize contents of the clipboard and the selection

Re: Old behavior of clipboard? How? - Dieter Nützel - 2002-02-17

Thank you, but I know that one. It do _NOT_ solve my problem. When I select a word in KMail's editor, Kate, etc. Ksteak do _NOT_ get the selected word;-( Second, two or more line selections in "less" for example brake into n > 1 lines when I paste it into the konsole... I need something like "only 1 element", _NOT_ 2 as smallest number. Thanks, Dieter BTW What a really need is the "old" Unix behavior. It should be configurable. Old or "new" Winblows behavior. -Dieter

kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-18

Thanks for the wonderful job ! :-) It's amazing to see how mature it looks. And the small number of API changes from KDE2 to KDE3 clearly demonstrates that the design choices where clever. Now, one thing I really need to rant about is not KDE but rather http://apps.kde.org Boys, that's incredible : we've got a fantastic desktop and our primary source for KDE applications has a broken DNS since ages ! I don't know how it is for you but here, if you type http://apps.kde.org in your favourite browser, there are lot of chances that you got an "unknown host" most of the time. I can only reach it from www.kde.org, by clicking on the "Applications" entry in the left menu. In fact, a "dig apps.kde.org IN A" does not bring any "Answer Section"... And in fact, the same search @lupinella.troll.no (which is supposed to be the DNS Authority) does not give more results. In contrast, I've never had any problem with all (dot|developer|edu|.*).kde.org Wouldn't it be possible to have a specific domain name for this quite critical resource ? Or at least to update this damn *.ca conf file ?? This is hurting KDE badly, IMHO. G.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Uwe Thiem - 2002-02-18

It's apps.kde.com! Uwe

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-18

Duh !?! :o) what a weird idea !... All others KDE related parts are ".org" but apps are ".com" ?? For full GPL stuff ?! Then I guess the apps site is not related to the KDE project ? But then again I don't understand what prevents apps.kde.org to redirect to apps.kde.com... that would definetly be more consistent, to say the least. I've never even thought a second it could be a .com (yuck!) G.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-18

:: Then I guess the apps site is not related to the KDE project ? Depends on what you mean by "related". Sure, Linux.com, Slashdot.org, even Thinkgeek.com are "related" to Linux. You can buy nice warm Tux blankets at Thinkgeek. But Thinkgeek is not directly sponsored by the same people who write the Linux kernel (although some people associated with it are friendly with them, so you have things like the Alan Cox designed tee-shirt). In the same way, the KDE site lists links to places where you can find Konqi plush dolls... that does not mean that those sites are directly connected to the KDE Team. In the same way, kde.com is very much a "KDE site", but not directly connected to the KDE Team. Incidently, I think my personal rule of thumb is that "KDE Official" = In KDE CVS. Since all the websites are in CVS, the only thing that I would consider official that dosen't appear to be directly in the CVS are the lists. -- Evan

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-18

> In the same way, the KDE site lists links to places where you can find Konqi >plush dolls... mmmh... not quite exactly the same way. To reach such an information, you've got to click on "Everything else" on the left menu, then "Merchandise" : then you are still on a kde.org page, and it is clearly stated that the sites listed are external (http://www.kde.org/kde-stuff.html) In fact, every single link on www.kde.org's main page point to a kde.org site EXCEPT apps.kde.com, and there is absolutely no indication to tell you that the site is not part of the project. You've got a simple statement "Applications" listed in the "Download" entry, as if it were a normal section of the same site, and you really ought to be very careful to notice the .org to .com change. I find this situation very confusing. >Incidently, I think my personal rule of thumb is that "KDE Official" = In KDE >CVS. Well... Indeed, indeed. However, I somewhat doubt that this would appear as a convenient "rule of thumb" to the ordinary Joe Bean KDE user. Boss - what u doin' there ?! Watching TV !! Tought I told u to bring me a new FTP client ! Joe - ...says I need to browse CBS to find out... Boss - uh ?!

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Anonymous - 2002-02-18

> In fact, every single link on www.kde.org's main page point to a kde.org site EXCEPT apps.kde.com In fact there are koffice.org, konqueror.org, kdevelop.org, kde-look.org and eurolinux.org. Use your eyes.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-18

Aren't you playing with words ? The URLs you mention are written in full, explicit letters under the subsection "family", there are no chances one could get confused. They are of the type <a href='http://www.url.org'>www.url.org</a>. You will also notice that apps.kde.com is not present in this list, thus it seems it is not a member of the "family" whereas others are. An despite of that, the menu entry "Download/Applications" seems to point to it as if it where a part of www.kde.org. This IS confusing. It's not an opinion, it's a simple HTML fact. No need to be deep and clever, I mean.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Anonymous - 2002-02-18

You were wrong with fulminating against DNS. Stop arguing, accept it. And about the GPL on .com site, this is almost as stupid as your request to rename news.uslinuxtraining.com to news.kde.org "to discuss KDE right here".

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-19

Yet Another Anonymous Pathetic Troll.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-19

:: However, I somewhat doubt that this would appear as a convenient "rule of thumb" to the ordinary Joe Bean KDE user. I was referring to the fact that the "official" KDE websites are in KDE's CVS server. That does not mean that you can't use freshmeat.net, apps.kde.com or download.com. Apps.k.c happens to be the leading one - that's why it's listed... kde.themes.org used to be, until kde-look.org surpassed it (well, pretty much unilaterally replaced it as well), and now kde-look.org is listed. You're arguing over a useful link to a good resource. I merely answered the technical reason as to why it isn't a kde.org site. Step back for a minute, and answer this question - "What is your point?" -- Evan

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-19

>Step back for a minute, and answer this question - "What is your point?" My point is clear : there is a useful external resource that is used by kde.org as an internal resource. As all other internal resources are located at kde.org, it would be more consistent if a request to apps.kde.org did not encounter an "unknown host" but a redirection page to apps.kde.com or whatever is most relevant. This is not important if I'm the only one on this small earth to persist in typing the wrong URL. This is more important if there are thousands of people doing the same mistake. Wait and see.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-20

:: it would be more consistent if a request to apps.kde.org did not encounter an "unknown host" but a redirection page to apps.kde.com or whatever is most relevant. Excellent idea! Now that you've managed to phrase it in a short, to the point statement, submit it, and it will probably be done. That's how things work around here, y'know. -- Evan

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-20

I would love to but ...err... what is actually the best place to submit this kind of idea ?

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-20

bugs.kde.org. File an item under the category "website". It will be routed to the appropriate person. -- Evan

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Germain - 2002-02-19

> that's why it's listed... No it is not.It is used but not listed. Look at the "Family" section in the menu.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Sage - 2002-02-20

> I was referring to the fact that the "official" KDE websites are in KDE's CVS > server. That does not mean that you can't use freshmeat.net, apps.kde.com or > download.com. Actually, staring right at you is a site listed in the "family" but neither accessible from KDE's CVS or through other "regular" channels - that's right, the dot is an alien! Going down the "family" list, none of the following sites is in KDE's CVS or hosted on the "KDE" servers: webcvs.kde.org kdeleague.org promo.kde.org lists.kde.org dot.kde.org webcvs.kde.org printing.kde.org lxr.kde.org www.kdevelop.org www.kde-look.org That's almost half of the listed sites.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Anonymous - 2002-02-20

> Going down the "family" list, none of the following sites is in KDE's CVS or hosted on the "KDE" servers: What is your definition of "KDE server"? Does private computers of KDE core developer count? What's with computers located in universities or KDE related companies? Where does "alien" start, where does it end? And printing.kde.org is hosted in KDE's CVS.

Re: kudos & rant (about apps.kde.org->'unknown host') - Evan "JabberWokky" E. - 2002-02-20

Hey, I just said it was my casual rule of thumb... and I even mentioned that lists.kde.org isn't on there (although, to be honest, the dot isn't for the same reason - they are interactive, rather than published, you've listed webcvs twice, which along with lxr *is* the CVS, printing is in CVS, and the remaing kde.org is promo - I have no idea why that isn't in CVS. KDE-Look is like apps.kde.com - not run by KDE, but simply "best of breed" (which I also previously mentioned). I believe that kdeleague.org is running on a different server, and kdevelop.org existed before it was part of the KDE project, and probably hasn't been phased in. Those are my guesses - as I said, it was a casual rule of thumb. And I'm employing ESR's famous "If you don't know, state your guess, and you'll get corrected", so I'm sure we'll find out the status of all those sites in the next few days. :) -- Evan

more KDE myths - joe99 - 2002-02-19

<<a href="mailto:trolls@kdenews.org">snip</a>> (troll researched and confirmed)

Re: more KDE myths - Shamyl Zakariya - 2002-02-19

Wow. Not to assume too much, but you sound like somebody who's really, *really* lonely and unhappy. I'm glad GNOME makes you feel good. But I'm sad that coming here and doing your best to generalize and belittle KDE users also makes you feel good. I suggest you go outside and take a nice bike ride, or go play frisbee.

Re: more KDE myths - Jean-Christophe Fargette - 2002-02-20

That's funny to read that post. I guess that this user is not using both KDE or Gnome. It's just a microsoft post. The Kde and Gnome project are totally differents. In implementation, thinking or applications. I like both, but users can choose just one and ignore the other. The war between the 2 projects will never exists. I can agree that having 2 projects means to code twice most applications. So the development can be slower than wanted by some users. But a little 'competition' improves a lot the functionality of each apps. I can't say that of closed system. At each upgrade, there is nothing new. My notepad or explorer still poors of functionality. I don't like some systems. I don't use them. If you don't like KDE, don't use it and don't read news about it. I'm sure you will feel great

Re: more KDE myths - Brat Pitt - 2002-02-20

> Confronting the KDE propaganda machine. oki choad, time to smash a stone to your head. > The KDE project is famous for its funded and organised trolling of weblogs and > message board associated with Linux and Free software/open source. Outrageous > newbie impressing claims are made for the software and huge quanities of FUD > are spread to destroy competitors. If this sounds familiar, then you are > correct, most of these tactics were lifted straight from Microsoft's arsenal > of dirty tricks. The Windows look and feel is not the only thing the KDE > project has copied! In this short article I will address some of the lies and > FUD spread by the KDE trolling teams. It is my hope that this, in some small > way, will redress the balance and re-introduce two things almost eradicated by > the KDE project: Honesty and facts. shut up. > * Myth #1 - KDE is more integrated than GNOME > > The oft-heard cry of the noisiest KDE advocates. No explanation is given, the > reader is expected to simply grok the wholesomeness of KDE and the lack of > this mystical quality in GNOME. It is nonsense of course. Neither desktop is > particularly "integrated" compared to Windows XP, and certainly not compared > any version of the Apple Mac. Whatever "integrated" actually means. yeah but compared to the other named ones KDE is not a commercial product, where rich companies put millions of money into the project. they pay for scienctists, big companies that does marketing research and stuff. > * Myth #2 - KDE is easier to use > > Again, such nebulous arguments are never explained, and the reader is expected > to simply understand the truth of the zealots statement. Both KDE and GNOME > have user-interface irritations (all systems do), but "ease of use" is not a > simple thing to measure. KDE has never been subjected to detailed user > testing, unlike GNOME [gnome.org], and the claims of user-friendliness are > from crazed supporters and not average users. Furthermore, the KDE faithful > rarely look beyond simple-minded copying of Windows, and forget that > administering a desktop system is just as important as having widgets in the > correct place on the toolbar. For example: What about application installation > and removal? GNOME has the excellent RedCarpet by Ximian [ximian.com], which > makes the installation, removal and updating of applications trivial. KDE > users are expected to fend for themselves with brutal command line driven > systems. GNOME also has the excellent Ximian setup tools to handle various > tricky cross-platform and potentially risky system configuration operations. > KDE offers none of this, only a few small half-assed Linux-only tools, which > make no attempt at check-pointing to return to known working configurations. you are mixing things here: - redcarpet is a product by ximian. they move towards $$$ with redcarpet pro now to get some bucks for their support system. - ximian is a company of its own they have NOTHING to do with GNOME. GNOME is an own project where some XIMIAN develops and depends on but generally we dont speak of XIMIAN GNOME (since XIMIAN is not the legitimate owner of GNOME) - the idea behind redcarpet aint that bad but the problem is getting the packages just in time :) > * Myth #3 - KDE is more popular > > In what sense? Arguably more people use KDE, but it is a close run thing. Most > KDE zealots use the results of online polls as proof of their superior > userbase - which is, quite frankly, complete and utter nonsense. Online polls > are the joke of the century; it doesn't even require a motivated script kiddie > to render then worthless. A single post alerting the faithful on a > zealot-ridden site can skew the result so much it makes American presidential > elections look fair and well organised. Popularity is also difficult to > measure when *both* GNOME and KDE are frequently installed on the same system. > The systems can co-exist and even run at the same time, except for certain > applications such as panels. Many KDE users actually run GNOME applications > for their superior features and stability, not realising that by doing so they > are barely running KDE at all. yes, and no one has anything against mixing systems and software. no one said anything negative about that. but thats the problem if people had worked on one desktop as we gonna repeat this here. then there would have been powerfull apps for that desktop so there would be no need to mix applications but no... someone needed to start another desktop and reinvent the wheel with the apps. now the unix community in general are 20 steps back. > One of the few solid measures of popularity is commercial use of a desktop, > and here, GNOME is far ahead with both Hewlett Packard and Sun committing to > using GNOME as the desktop for their Unix systems. This also ties in with the > previously mentioned ease of use. Sun's major contribution to the GNOME > project is in the areas of user/developer documentation, testing, accessiblity > and user-testing. Three of the less glamourous parts of desktop development. > The arrival of the GNOME 2.x series will see these contributions reach > fruitition and allow GNOME to make a quantum leap ahead of KDE in most of the > basic computer/user issues. - yeah and dont you see it now ? - dont you see the eyewashing things behind it ? - didnt god gave you a brain to use ? sun, redhat, ximian... these 3 companies work on gnome. as you correctly said SUN is acting as beeing the OWNER of gnome now. you read a lot of mails on a couple of gnome mailinglist where they act like 'NAZIS' giving orders and tell people what to do and what not (instead asking quietly). sun is following their own business interests here e.g. substitution of CDE with GNOME 2 (anyone realized why gnome 2 comes up looking like CDE default installation ?). practically gnome is already under their control, people from outside who wants to contribute or want to bring in their own ideas are beeing rejected. its opensource but the roadmap is clear so forking it is getting impossible not to mention that the developerbase is a closed community. now some problems: ximian wants .NET and C#. sun the inventopr of JAVA. now dont you think both will collide when it comes to gnome 3 or gnome 4 ? > * Myth #4 - Konqueror is the best Linux browser > > Oh for a penny every time this lie is told in any KDE story! Konqueror not a > bad piece of software. It's authors deserve praise for the work done on it. > However, the sheer amount of orgasmic gushing by the KDE faithful is > completely out of proportion to its actual quality. It is quite unreliable > and even simple standards compliant pages can crash it quite comprehensively > It is also lax in its support of basic web standards compared to either > Mozilla or Opera. It is also extremely slow - much slower than the latest > incarnations of the GNOME Nautilus filemanager/browser (a target of much KDE > FUD during its development). you are a clueless person. - konqueror is more than a browser it integrates browser, filemanager in a nice plugin system way AND it is FASTER than NAUTILUS. ask me i have tested all 3 versions. nautilus for gnome 1, nautilus for gnome 2 and konqueror for kde 3. - nautilus on the otherhand is STILL unusable. ok definately faster under gnome 2 but accessing the menues with the changed new widgetset is QUITE UEBERSLOW. still not compareable to konqueror. but dont worry, kde 3 offers a browser and filemanager at least. we on gnome 2 can wait months before we get a halfway usable browser not to mention that nautilus still sucks. if you dont belive me wait until the official release dates then you see how many persons actually rant about that. > * Myth #5 - KDE applications are better/more advanced than GNOME ones due to > the ease of developing in C++ using the Qt toolkit > > See also: Qt/TrollTech. This is the most common wail heard by KDE developers, > and yet it is easily disproved by looking at the actual applications for > GNOME/GTK and KDE/Qt. KDE applications often have larger version numbers than > GNOME ones... an old trick played by commerical software developers. Most KDE > apps seem to jump for 1.x releases long before they are ready - KOffice being > the best example. None of the components in Koffice are worthy of a 1.0 > release, let alone 1.1 or 1.2. then get your ass moving and enchance the software. not to mention that using a OOP programminglanguage is the best decission for writing an entire DE the QT widgetsset is more enchanced QT3 with its new database support etc. > GNOME applications get much more testing in their 0.x stages and despite > shorter development phases they mature and reach stable featureful release > states much more quickly. Some examples of this are: the superb Evolution > (groupware/email), Gnumeric (spreadsheet), Pan (newsreader), The GIMP (image > manipulation), Abiword (word processing), RedCarpet, X-Chat (IRC client), XMMS > (media player), Galeon (web browser), and for developers: Glade and Anjuta. > All of these packages ooze quality, and far outclass their KDE counterparts. > It is no understatement to say that GNOME is at least 18 months ahead of KDE > in applications, and pulling still further ahead. sorry did you say testing ? dude i am into that shit better than you. lets pic that stuff out. - evolution, ximian product. its gpl'ed but the exchange server support is what matters. thats the purpose why evolution is so (more or less good it is still full of bugs and the addressbook is worthless). ximian paid the evolution hackers to do this product for free they get the money from selling exchange stuff to customers and companies. - oki gnumeric is perfect. no doubt. - pan is GTK only so its not gnome related. - the gimp is GTK only so its not gnome related. - abiword is GTK with some support of GNOME mainly done by abisoftware a company that pay their employee so abiword finally is not gnome related it doesnt support the gnome framework at all. - redcarpet: see evolution. - xchat the chatclient with the most problems ever but oki i am using it myself now. - XMMS is not gnome related. - GALEON is indeed a good BROWSERFRONTEND but thats almost all on gnome i need to start 2 apps galeon to browse and nautilus to manage files on kde i have konqueror 2 things in one app not to mention it is mozilla independant. wait until gnome 2 comes out then wait another couple of months until the GECKO engine of mozilla is ported to gtk2+ currently mozilla native is ported to gtk2 but it still requires glib1 (so i need to install gtk1/glib1 and gtk2/glib2) to get mozilla compiled using gtk2. not to mention that the embedded gtk mozilla part is not yet done. blizzard is investigating into these things but they are not done and as long as this is not done as long you dont get a new galeon 2 for gnome 2. (oki galeon 2 is under development its nearly finished now because they #ifdef'ed the mozilla components out. temporarely you see a window with menues and full galeon support but no rendering engine in the middle of the window) > It's not only in the area of user applications that GNOME is vastly more > advanced. With the forthcoming 2.x release, a number of impressive behind the > scenes technologies will finally mature: component technology (bonobo), media > (Gstreamer), internationalisation (pango). As a developement platform, GNOME > 2.x is, conservatively, 2-3 years ahead of KDE. And what is more, because it > is not tied to a lowest common denominator cross-platform bloat-fest like the > Qt toolkit, the lead (as with applications) can only increase further. seriously no one belives this. even apes wont belive you. 2-3 years ahead ? 2-3 years back yes. gnome 2 will be slower than gnome 1 from UI usage. a lot of ports cant be done correctly just in time for gnome 2 so they mainly port some stuff now (because they are under highly pressure now) sure they have written a a lot of stuff new and changed a lot of the framework, doesnt change the fact that it is never 2-3 years ahead. while you stick on a gnome 2 desktop with no serious basic programs for a while (like email client and browser) you can use KDE3 fine without problems. all necessary applications are there already and you dont care if 1-2 applications still needs a while. on gnome you need to wait for the BITTER NEEDED tools. even gnome developers tell you to use gnome 1 with gnome 2 together. what crappy idea is this ? so why does one want gnome 2 at all if he still requires running gnome 1 to get his beloved applications running. even your beloved evolution (soon 1.2 will be out with soup and .NET) support wont be ported to gnome 2 until evolution 1.4 is out (which takes another couple of shit months). > Yet despite all this, we are still regularly fed the lie that Qt and C++ makes > application and desktop development easier. Judge for yourself. i judged and my conclusion is that you are wrong. > * Myth #6 - KDE is faster and takes less memory than GNOME > > KDE is written in C++. While this is not necessarily a problem, it can be when > Visual Basic reject programmers (which the KDE project is overrun with) do not > know enough to avoid important pitfalls that plague C++ software projects. > Stupid use of autoincrementing operators and iteration with C++ objects; and > masses of unnecessary allocations and deallocations of memory are two of the > most common. KDE suffers badly from both problems. not to speak writing a widgetset in C like GTK that does raceconditions on the system over and over. not to mention about the garbage collector stuff within kde. a lot of gnome applications are leaking memory over and over because the coders are dump jerks. > Perhaps the most cretinous of all problems is blaming the extremely slow > startup times of KDE apps on GCC. The GNOME 1.x releases were hardly svelt > (2.x fixes many of these issues), but GNOME is a fashion cat-walk superwaif > when compared to KDE's 500lb fat-momma cheese-burger scoffing trailer trash. > One need only look at the recent fuss over ugly KDE hacks (such as prelinking) > used to bandage up the design and coding flaws in the decrepit KDE > architecture to see the truth. try some sex dude. > * Myth #7 - GNOME development is slower. KDE releases faster. > > Fundamental misunderstanding. The KDE project releases as one big lump of code > due to its use of C++ and the many problems this causes with libraries. The > project bumps the version number of the entire KDE system for the smallest > modifications. GNOME, on the other hand is componentized and each component > releases on a (almost) separate schedule, bumping it's own version number but > not the main GNOME version (1.4, for example). Occasional releases of the > entire GNOME system happen, and that's when the GNOME version number is bumped > (currently it is at 1.4). To see this in action, use RedCarpet and you will > regular updates to GNOME components. GNOME development is not slower, it is in > fact faster and more advanced. Lamers and newbies, however, fail to understand > the advantages of this method and just see KDE 1.1.1 followed a few weeks > later by KDE 1.1.2. Wow! KDE roolz. hahaha you gave me a final laugh dude: i like the way kde release stuff. they take their time, get the stuff working and do some intensive testing before releasing packages. gnome in the otherside does exactly the different here an example of gnome-utils changelof for gnome 1.4: - changelog: 01-01-2002 - added de.po, hk.po (version changed to 1.4.0.6) 20-12-2001 - changed some *.c and *.h files (version changed to 1.4.0.5) what i want to say is they change some minor fucking unworthy to mention things and bump the version. same for gnumeric once you get gnumeric compiled and installed, go to ftp.gnome.org and leech another new version. > * Myth #8 - The Qt toolkit is cross-platform and yet takes advantage of each > individual platform > > The Qt toolkit (the software at the heart of KDE) is supposedly a > cross-platform toolkit allowing the lucky developer the opportunity to write > Windows/Linux/Mac software all at once. And yet, among the magical mythical > claims made, the most nonsensical is that it makes applications which take > advantage of the distinct features of the different platforms. This is of > course, nonsense. Qt is a bloated, slow layer that is slapped over a native > system's APIs in an attempt to make all the systems look alike. It no more > takes advantage of Linux/Windows/Mac than Java does - in fact it offers many > of the disadvantages of Java with few of the advantages. If you have ever > wondered why the KDE desktop looks so much like Windows... you need look no > further than Qt. Qt is a lowest common denominator toolkit, and that LCD is > Windows - Trolltech's, the creator of Qt, real market. at least you can port qt and kde apps. look on gnome it depends on so many different programminglanguages, it depends on so many other (wherever you get them applications) that you need ages to get a basic system ported to either windows and wherever. > * Myth #9 - TrollTech is a friend of Free software > > To Be Written. Ideas: Qt started out as non-Free. KDE developers knew this > violated the GPL, didn't care, stole others' GPL code by porting it to link > (in violation of the license) with Qt and are therefore untrustworthy. KDE > core developers work for TrollTech. Expensive per developer licensing for > writing closed-source with Qt, and hence KDE. Trolltech only moved towards the > GPL because of the success of GNOME. Labyrinthine licensing nightmare (3 > licenses to deal with). Gradual migration of features belonging in KDE into Qt > (and so into TrollTech's IP portfolio), allowing easy porting of apps to the > revenue generating Windows world (see TheKompany for a perfect example), > thereby making KDE an irrelevant launcher of Qt applications. Claims made that > Qt is GPL, while true, hide the real truth. There cannot be a real fork of Qt > for the KDE project: Core developers work for Trolltech; any fork would need > to be full GPL and hence ban any closed-source apps from KDE altogether (all > KDE apps must link with Qt); Any commerical licensees of Qt (non-GPL) would > and could only follow TrollTech. KDE is stitched up good and proper. you are totally clueless once again you proof it. some years back there was only 2-3 widgetsets out one of them was the leading MOTIF widgetset which was closed source and during this time outdated. people tried to write a DE and searched for a OOP compatible widgetset so they found their way to QT which filled all their needs. sure QT during this time wanted to earn some money or do you think a company could exists, feed their family and pay the bills by writing free software ? thats plain sick and plain wrong. we should be thankfull to trolltech that they offer QT under a GPL compatible license now and you fuckign shithead have nothing better to do than piss around. what kinda asshole are you ?

Re: more KDE myths - andrew - 2002-02-20

Dude, you've written the same message three times. Get over yourself. The post wasn't really worth the first read.

Re: more KDE myths - Anonymous Bovine-o-phile - 2002-02-23

Pfft. Silly rabbit, crack is for kids. You've taken a horrendously unneeded "Linux is world" attitude. Perhaps GuhNome is easier to setup and install and use on Linux. Posts previous to yours seems to indicate it is not. However, I can attest to how hard it is to get GuhNome setup (properly?) on FreeBSD. Then again I don't have the patience to download all of the dependencies for GuhNome. Second. C++. Learn to love it. Quite frankly KDE doesn't seem all that slow. And I'm running a 2xP2-450 w/ a FreeBSD -current kernel. Hardly optimized for SMP, hardly quick, but for sure after disabling the "WITNESS" code it's very useable. Sure symbol mangling is a bitch. But what freakin genius decided that it was a good idea to cram zen and the art of object oriented OBJECTS into a functional language? Perhaps someone is trying to fellate the ego of the preprocessor author? Sheesh. Thirdly. Stop knocking on any resemblance to Windows. Oddly enough Win98+MSIE+Word allow me to get a whole lot more work done than Leenuchs or FreeBSD plus whatever silly graphical UI. Just because something is a thinly veiled immitation of something else (which I don't see as true in KDE's case) - doesn't make it bad. Ask ten shoe wearing pedestrians what they think of when they think of old school rap. Sugarhill Gang: Rapper's Delight. That managed to jack the bass line off of an average disco song as well as a bunch of lyrics from other sources. But it still gets ya going, and it still went a long way to putting hip hop in the limelight. - guess who

Re: more KDE myths - Anonymous - 2003-04-17

> GNOME is far ahead with both Hewlett Packard and Sun committing to using GNOME as the desktop for their Unix systems Funny reading such old comment and today's headlines about HP dropping their Gnome2 efforts.

Re: more KDE myths - Navindra Umanee - 2003-04-17

Where are these headlines?

Re: more KDE myths - Anonymous - 2003-04-17

http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/03/04/16/2016221.shtml?tid=173&tid=189&tid=131 http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=3298