AUG
23
2002

KC KDE #43 is Up

KC KDE issue #43 is out
featuring everything from KDE 3.1's new look, the future of multimedia in KDE, a refitted Konqi, math app news, mouse news, and much more.
Get it here.

Comments

Thank you C, much appreciated for your help, i'll take your advice. PS I like Debian and the concept. I like dselect a lot as well.

Dave


By David Pastern at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

I'd suggest trying out aptitude instead of dselect. It's a bit easier to use, has nearly all the same features, and automatically tracks automatically installed packages that were installed because you selected some dependant package, so they can all be uninstalled if/when you stop using that original package. It can make for a much cleaner and compact system. With dselect there's no real easy way to tell what packages are orphaned on the system.


By Chad Kitching at Sat, 2002/08/31 - 5:00am

Funny thing your article.
Although I will agree on some points, But - the date on the Price of Suse article is dated 2002, and if this is correct I wonder if you tried any of those distros that you mention, why ? Because I have tried all the distros that you did mention and find that your remarks are somewhat uncalled for, hell, actually I would say that they are not at all true. I currently use Mandrake, Windows 2000, FreeBSD, debian, and RedHat ( yea alot but I mingle with mutiple systems). And I would have to say that the most user friendly, easiest to set up, and solid system by far would be Mandrake. Debian just plan is a pan in the arse when it comes to setting up. Redhat is good, but lags behind these days compared to Mandrake. As for Suse, I quit using them since they joined United Linux. Now how is it that setting these things up ( printer and such ) is such a problem ( provinding you actually did try these systems) ? Oh and by the way, Mandrake also runs on my laptop and server. Seems to me that once again someone is seriously misleading others. I find it odd that I run into users such as your self, and often wondered if they tried at all, why ? BECAUSE MANDRAKE SETS UP IN 25 MINUTES WITH ALL PROGRAMS LOADED ON A 1 GIG MACHINE COMPARED TO 25 -40 OR WINDOWS (and remember windows does not load anything but the OS and a few tools). I would be curious to hear from you. Maybe you just need a little help in the right direction. It really should not be so hard ( except for debian).
oboltyo


By oboltyo at Sun, 2002/11/24 - 6:00am

> perhaps kde employees could do this instead seeing
> red hats view on the issue.

KDE does not have any employees that I am aware of. Some distributions hire developers to contribute to KDE (e.g. MandrakeSoft and Suse), and I would be just flabbergasted if they went to the trouble and expense of building packages for their competitor. If you look at the press release for KDE 3.0.3, you will find RPMs for RedHat 7.3 from an unofficial contributer. As long as you use a distro that doesn't support KDE, you will have to compile the code yourself, or wait for someone else to make an RPM available for you.

Alternatively, you could hire someone to build a Red Hat RPM for you. Or you could start up a company to sell Red Hat RPMs. Of course, as soon as the business takes off, Red Hat will realize the error of their ways and build their own RPMs.


By Jack White at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Funny, I always thought of RedHat as the expensive one.

Cost of SuSE:
(http://www.suse.com/us/private/products/suse_linux/i386/index.html)
SuSE Linux Personal 8.0 $39.95
SuSE Linux Professional 8.0 $79.95

From the appropriate pages linked from http://www.redhat.com/soho/:
Red Hat Linux 7.3 Personal $59.95
Red Hat Linux 7.3 Professional $199.95

As you can see, a SuSE CD set costs two-thirds the price of a Red Hat CD set.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

That is, the SuSE Personal set costs two-thirds of the price of Red Hat Personal. Of course, the SuSE Professional set is only two-fifths of the price of Red Hat Professional.

The main difference, of course, is that Red Hat has ISO CD images available for download. SuSE does not, but you can still download and install the distribution at no charge.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

RedHat also provides freely downloadable ISOs of their Personal distribution. SuSE does not provide any ISOs on their site.

I was looking for a distribution that had XFree86 4.2.0 (because I had a Radeon at the time) and I was having a devil of a time getting the X upgrade to work right on my SuSE 7.2 distro. I wanted to stick with SuSE but I was poor (dot.bomb refugee living hand to mouth at the time) and needed it fast, so I downloaded RedHat's ISOs. Simple. Free. Easier than getting my CD-R to work under Linux (which I still haven't gotten to work right), figuring out mkisofs, and downloading a billion seperate files.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

> SuSE does not provide any ISOs on their site.

Therefore get a *legal* copy from your friend or favorite file-sharing network.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

but Yast is not freesoftware


By machin at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Read the YaST 2 license:

3. Dissemination
It is forbidden to reproduce or distribute data carriers which have
been reproduced without authorisation *for payment* without the prior
written consent of SuSE Linux AG or SuSE Linux. [..] Making YaST 2 or
works derived thereof available *free of charge* together with SuSE
Linux on FTP Servers and mailboxes is permitted if the licences on the
software are observed.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#NonFreeSoftwareLicense

The YaST License
This is not a free software license. The license prohibits distribution for a fee, and that makes it impossible for the software to be included in the many CD-ROM free software collections that are sold by companies and by organizations such as the FSF.

There may be another problem in section 2a, but a word seems to be missing there, so it is hard to be sure what meaning is really intended.


By machin at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

The initial controversial subject was if it is legally allowed to copy it for free. I'm not really sorry, that you are not allowed to make money with SuSE's work without permission.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

SuSe make money with Linus's Apache's gnome's( etc ) work !


By machin at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

You cannot IMO make money by creating a free software product. Apache folk makes money with their service around Apache. SuSE is making money with their service to create a distribution from free software products. Why should they been obliged to allow others to make money with their service? They don't want to bust.


By Anonymous at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

?????

Do you know seriously what is freesoftware ???

you can buy freesoftware , the best exemple --> https://agia.fsf.org/

all (redhat , mandrake connectiva) developpement are GPL , Suse is the only one who make proprietary software !


By machin at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

> SuSE does not provide any ISOs on their site.

Who needs them anyway ? Just do FTP install - it will install and download packages you selected, nothing more, nothing less. With .ISOs you end up downloading bunch of crap you don't need anyhoo.


By jmk at Tue, 2002/08/27 - 5:00am

Well, IMHO they both suck so I could care less.


By Mike Collins at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

I dont care about KDE or GNOME, because they are trying to make linux be like microsoft.


By Anonymous at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Ximian are doomed.

KDEs' nemesis has finally been defeated, but not by KDE, but by Redhat! Where can I download Redhat Evolution? LOL!

To Ximian: So long, and thanks for all the icons.


By ac at Sat, 2002/08/24 - 5:00am

"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"

No Ximian isn't doomed. It's gained it's market by:
* selling Ximian connectors
* providing a consistent desktop for all distributions
* software distributed on RedCarpet
* adding "the Ximian touch" to it's desktops

RedHat's desktop hasn't changed that. If anything, it's likely given Ximian some new ideas for it's upcoming GNOME 2.0 desktop.

Long live Ximian. Long live theKompany. Long live TrollTech!


By Mark Twain at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Unfortunately some of the negative comments on this page seem to have (undeservedly IMHO) gained a lot of publicity. Articles on Slashdot, GnomeDesktop & PCLinuxOnline seem to have shown the KDE community in a very bad light.

Anyway, I downloaded the redhat-artwork package to see what all the fuss was about, and having compiled it on my LFS system, I got:
- surprisingly good matching GTK1/GTK2 styles
- a below-par KDE style meant to match the GTK styles (I'll stick with Qinx!)
- an very incomplete KDE icon set
- an excellent XMMS skin
- wallpapers, GDM themes etc.

I didn't check the other KDE packages, so I wasn't able to determine what (if any) patches were applied to Konqueror etc.

In my opinion, if RH want to brand their KDE, so be it - that's the nature of open source development. Their target is mainly corporate customers for servers etc, so a plain uniform style like Redhat's BlueCurve might be more suitable than a style like Keramik. Desktop users looking for eye-candy can always use Mandrake/Suse/Gentoo.

I think that if the situation were reversed, and a distro such as Mandrake produced a GTK theme mimicking Keramik (to help Gnome apps fit in with the default KDE desktop), I'm sure many people here would be applauding the move.

Hopefully this whole episode won't result in our community being alienated from the Gnome community & commercial Linux distros, just because of the knee-jerk reactions of a vocal minority.


By delete at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Yes, the Qt style seems sub-par so far but (mostly lack of highlighting and a boring progressbar) I guess it's pretty new as it wasn't there in an earlier beta. They do a lot of progress right now and I'm sure they will ship with a better one (AFAIK the developers working on this style are actually KDE users theirself like Bero, so I wouldn't expect any bad intentions). Also as for the icons, Havoc stated that those are quite incomplete yet. I'm sure they will wait until they have a really complete set of icons before they ship.


By Spark at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Judging from reading a *lot* of knee jerk reactionary responses from the self appointed desktop gestapo about Red Hat changing KDE's look N feel to look more like gnome, I say tough. Granted RedHat _DOES_ need to ensure that proper credit is given to the KDE team and to the developer of the program.

Hey can you say B*E*T*A?. Perhaps a bug has left out the "About" part of the program. At anyrate, its RedHats choice to make KDE and Gnome look anyway they please. Maybe later you will not like the way my KDE desktop looks.
SO I say take the clothes pins off your testicles and get a grip. RedHat is not out to destroy KDE. There is no big compsiracy. Its just code thats put together to get input from testers. Thats what beta's are for.

I dont even use RedHat. So I really could care less what they do. I do use KDE however, and take exception to the immature rantings of numbskulls who feel they have to critise RedHat and others over every little thing.
Please get over it and move on. Life is too short.


By borg at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

A bug added a patch to packages to explicitly remove the "About KDE" entry? Wow, never knew the little critters were so good with keyboards. Maybe I can train one to help me type faster? ;-)


By Sad Eagle at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

"SO I say take the clothes pins off your testicles and get a grip...I... take exception to the immature rantings of numbskulls"

hmm, ok...


By David Walser at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

I cannot believe you people are complaining that RedHat is changing the look and feel of KDE. You people have egos so large they could occupy mount rushmore!

Oh no!! RedHat is making KDE look good and easy to use! The world is coming to an end, how dare those bastards!

Personally I think finally for the first time _ever_ KDE actually looks good.

Now please grow up and stop giving a damn about what RedHat does.


By Chris Stone at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

That's unfair. It's okay to make KDE look like you or like RedHat want
it to. To remove the "About KDE" menu item is another thing. And don't
put all the people who love KDE into one corner.

Maybe you are a fat head?

:-)


By Tim Gollnik at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

I never really understood why there's a need for an "About KDE" menu item.
I mean, you don't see an "About Windows" in every window app.
It's not that I don't appreciate the developers work. I just think it would be better to have it in one place, like the K menu or something.


By Morten Bendix at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

It's simple: People who've never seen a KDE desktop before and don't know
the software they are surfing the internet with is called Konqueror...
(standard windows-user reaction: konqu-what? What is this? Does ist work?)
Well it works (mostly).. So maybe someone likes to dig deeper into the free
part of the software-world... And there is this wonderful 'about kde' menu item. What impression does he get?
Ah, there is a bunch of developers, they must be proud of their baby,
otherwise there won't be an 'about kde' box.....
Hm.. This program seems not to be the only one. Hm... What the hell is
a desktop environment?... Let's surf the KDE web-page...
and so on.... This is how new people get to know the project!

So I have two points against RH removing this special menu item:
o KDE-programmers are somehow proud of their work. Removing the
about-box does hurt (a little). RedHat knows the world of open
source very well. They _know_ when they remove the about box it hurts.
o The 'about kde' box is a small but maybe effective approach to get
new users exited about the whole project. Is it possible, RH does not
want anybody to get exited about KDE?


By thomas at Wed, 2002/08/28 - 5:00am

I mean, you don't see an "About Windows" in every window app.

You used to, back in the heady days of Windows 3.x. When Microsoft had serious competition in the desktop OS market, lots of the little desktop doodads (clocks, calculators, etc) were prominently branded as being part of Windows. Now that OS/2 and the like are gone, MS would rather imply that all software runs on windows, so there is no need to brand software as being part of windows. KDE still needs to differentiate itself from GNOME, that's why they're unhappy about RedHat's hacking out the about dialogs.


By Will at Fri, 2002/08/30 - 5:00am

> I cannot believe you people are complaining that RedHat is changing the look and feel of KDE. You people have egos so large they could occupy mount rushmore!

Unfortunatly, they made an incomplete style for Qt, and a incomplete icon set for KDE.

Of course, it is only a beta.

> Now please grow up and stop giving a damn about what RedHat does.

Well, nobody cared when other companies did it (Lycoris, Lindows, etc..)
But not many people in the KDE community like redhat (history, history).


By fault at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

I am completely baffled as to what this site is about. Can you please fill me in.
Thanx a bunch.
Anita :)


By Anita at Wed, 2003/05/21 - 5:00am

damn bitch! just reboot into your windows partition and everything will be okay... that's right... green start button, uh-huh... peacefull, calm. BTW, wait until 3.1 is out


By standsolid at Fri, 2002/11/01 - 6:00am

i think its great well in lads i think boss keep it up


By kris newby at Fri, 2004/02/06 - 6:00am

This had to happen sooner or later. GNOME and KDE have in the past made some efforts to make their environments interoperate, however that work was not quite enough. The teams did unify the window management specification and the desktop environments' application menus do read each other's shortcut files. That's all very well, but even then the applications did have a seamless look and feel nor were the application menu hierarchies unified (which makes it difficult for users to use applications from the other desktop, because equivalent programs are classified differently for each desktop). There were some talks about implementing Gtk+'s default theme in Qt and vice versa but nothing really happened. The developers lacked the time to integrate further or they simply never came to a consensus. It's the thought that counts, I guess. But nevermind, Redhat just fixed the look-n-feel and menu problem for you! Now each KDE and corresponding GNOME application can compete against each other on their own merit. No longer are users forced into an ultimatum of selecting either the GNOME or KDE desktop environment. It's about time. Maybe now it's time to start looking at unifying clipboard, printing, and application association functionality.


By Dev/User at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

> Maybe now it's time to start looking at unifying clipboard,

It's been there for ages! http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/clipboards.txt
The only problem was that QT 1 and 2's support were broken. It's fixed in QT 3. GTK+ 1.2 and up supports the clipboard properly.

> printing

kde-print and gnome-print. Both support multiple backends so it doesn't matter what printing system you're using. And Common Unix Printing System (CUPS) is becoming the standard.


By Stof at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

Look at it this way:

KDE has built up a sizable lead technically over the last few years. It has a simpler, more flexible object system and scripting system (Compare KParts/DCOP to Bonobo and you'll see what I mean). It has a far more capable multimedia subsystem (aRts versus... what, esd? laughable. GStreamer is a long way from full integration with GNOME). It has better development tools (KDevelop/Qt Designer versus Anjuta/GLADE? No contest). It has better end-user tools (Konqueror and KControl are so far ahead of the competition it's untrue). It is stabler, far less buggy, and actually mostly faster than GNOME 2. KDE apps are similar, and benefit immensely from the consistency, usability and flexibility that XMLGUI provides to an app, and which GNOME has no equivalent to (GLADE gives an XML-based GUI, but there's no system to automatically enforce style guidelines like XMLGUI can).

So for many end-users at least, this means that there's really only one reason to stay using GNOME, and that's the look and feel, which some people prefer to KDE's. Red Hat has just removed that advantage, by providing a consistent look and feel across both desktops.

Soon many Red Hat-using people will be wondering why Red Hat went with the desktop they did, when if they dig a little deeper they will find another desktop that looks the same, works very similarly, runs all the same apps, but is faster, more user-friendly, and less buggy (although I don't know about that if Red Hat's KDE packaging is up to its usual standard - no offence to bero, your packages used to be much better when you were less overworked).

In the long run, this is a huge boost to KDE - it is an acknowledgement from Red Hat that KDE does actually matter, and amounts to an upgrade from not-really-supported to supported. It also means that, in the future, Red Hat is perfectly positioned to dump GNOME and go with KDE by default, and because of the consistent look and feel, the end-users won't notice much.

An unlikely scenario, perhaps - Red Hat has a lot of commitments to GNOME. However, as important as Red Hat may be, the technical superiority and utter dominance of KDE outside RedHatland may simply force their hand if they want to be successful in the Linux desktop space. I have absolutely no doubt that SuSE/UnitedLinux, Mandrake and any number of the up-and-coming desktop distros like Lycoris will simply eat Red Hat alive if they make the wrong moves.

I think the replacement of Konqueror with Mozilla as the default web browser is a very dumb move - I think Konq is the better browser for end-users: it renders IE-mangled sites considerably better than Mozilla, has better anti-aliased text, is in the same ballpark as Moz when it comes to standards-compliant rendering, and has a way way simpler, cleaner and easier to use GUI. But judging by past performance, Red Hat is going to make a few mistakes.

Evolution probably is the better option for a mail client, due to its Outlook-style integration. Although I think the KDE approach of a suite of PIM applications that talk to each other is perfectly valid, and perhaps is actually the better solution, I don't think this will wash with ex-Outlook users used to a single application that does everything. Although... many Windows users prefer Outlook Express to full-blown Outlook if they just want mail, and KMail is much more like OE than Evolution is - indeed Evolution is quite likely to confuse the hell out of these users.

Anyway, I think this is actually a really good day for KDE, bickering over About KDE boxes aside. What was previously almost a closed country for the KDE clan is slowly opening up. Whilst it looks like a rather strange place, and seems to be driven almost entirely by business interest and ideology rather than technical excellence, there are nonetheless many new opportunities to spread the word. Here's hoping KDE takes some of them!


By My Left Foot at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Hmm, I think you're being a little bit optimistic. For example, all of Redhat's excellent new configuration tools are developed using Python + Gnome, and they've obviously spent a lot of time working on the Gnome look & feel - the KDE theme seems like a bit of an after-thought. I think RH is definitely still pushing Gnome as their default desktop (which they are perfectly entitled to do - it's their product!) - they just seem to want to improve the usability of their desktop by unifying themes.

If anything, I think that KDE have lost out because of this incident - the negative publicity could make people think twice about taking KDE seriously as a viable choice on the desktop. IMHO it's a very embarassing moment for the community.


By delete at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

I have to agree with certain points here.

I'm no great follower of the KDE or GNOME desktops, but I know for sure that this action by RedHat has caused a stink.

The fact of the matter is - KDE and GNOME are both Open Source. No matter how anyone grumbles about the "About KDE" item - you are only serving notice on your short mindedness. Both desktops are themeable - and RedHat have given KDE and GNOME a theme that look and feel very similar. So friggin what???? They've done it to make sure that users can switch easily between the two without having to learn new ways of doing things.

The day that someone tells me what my desktop should and should not look like is the day I let them take me roughly from behind.

Get over these KDE/GNOME issues. You obviously have a VERY large chip on your collective shoulders. KDE is a desktop package & GNOME is too.

I have used both and I continue to use both.

For what it's worth - my opinion has GNOME 2 running faster than KDE and some of the Ximian/RedHat apps provide better functionallity than the KDE equivalents.

The bickering between the two communities is really quite sickening. And this little episode shows WAY more bickering going on on the KDE side. The WORST thing is that the VAST majority of the messages are clearly not thought out or written by idiots. I don't mean that in (exactly) a nasy way - but Jeez, get over it.

The negative attitude rising from this is definately hurting the KDE cause. You guys obviously don't know how to play politics. You have to keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

The comments on this post demonstrate to the world how your minds work.

Open your eyes - the world isn't against you. Nobody has WON. Nobody is WINNING. This is the Open Source environment - the more software is written the more EVERYONE wins!!!


By drunkahol at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

:: The fact of the matter is - KDE and GNOME are both Open Source. No matter how anyone grumbles about the "About KDE" item - you are only serving notice on your short mindedness.

This is where the great split over the issue exists. And I think I can sum it up here. You'll find yourself falling to one side or the other.

Yes. KDE and Gnome are open source. That means one of two things to people. To some people (the ones who see nothing wrong with the About KDE dialogs being removed), it is an interesting legal construction that allows code to be freely shared among developers and software houses. They think in terms of GPL, BSD, and can cite exactly where in the GPL it is perfectly legal to remove the KDE dialogs. And they are right.

KDE and Gnome are open source. To a second set of people this means something entirely different. There is a sense of contributing to a community, one where your work gains you respect, and you can sit back and work with a smooth set of tools you like, and had a part in making, either large or small. This sense of pride and community is what keeps quite a few developers working.

If you fall into the first half, consider this: It is perfectly legal to attend a wedding, and stand up during the reception and loudly announce "I think the bride is a fucking whore". It is totally legal, and can be done. It is, however, incredibly rude. There are no damages, other that to terribly hurt the people who have gathered together, spent time, money and effort to put together an event.

Or a more apt comparison: if you make a movie, it is (unless contracts stipulate otherwise), quite legal to not list any credits. You can just have the movie and plaster your name as producer all over it. However, can you imagine the feeling in the stomache of the actor as he sees his name not in the credits? (I've seen this happen by accident in theater programs, and felt horrible for the person to whom it occured).

Sure, it's legal. It's also rightfully labeled as totally against the spirit of open source, and an utter affront to the developers who have spent time working on KDE.

Being an ass is not against the law. There exist many asses out there, and a company is composed of many people who make many decisions. This was an asinine decision that was a slap in the face to many. If you see nothing wrong with what Red Hat has done, still sticking on that "but it was legal" point, ponder why there is such a strong public sentiment against attorneys and people who think in merely legal terms.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

You make it look like every person who doesn't agree with you is only thinking in legal terms but this is simply not true. I don't care for the legal issue (ok, I would if there would be an issue of course) and I still see nothing wrong with what RedHat has done and I believe this is true for many other people. Please allow everyone to form his own opinion, ok?
To me it isn't immorale as there wasn't any credits of the applications removed, it even states that it's using KDE in the applications about box. The about KDE box is superfluous in a way and if RedHat removes this for usability and consistency reasons, I can understand it (as long as the About KDE is accessable from somewhere in KDE). Don't get me wrong, I understand the reason to put the box in there (getting more name recognition and developers) and I don't think it's bad that KDE has it placed there of course but I also don't see anything wrong with it's removal (I can understand that KDE isn't happy about this though, but not beeing happy and bitching are two different shoes).

The intentions are also questionable as you will notice that the bashing already began before the removal of the about box was even known (just look at the several "they crippled KDE!" comments which are total nonsense). It just leaves a bad taste, especially as this wasn't the first time people are shaking their heads about KDE hysteria in a very short time.

I hope this wasn't too inflamatory, if it was, please excuse me (and please don't shoot me :)).


By Spark at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

Hmm.. to remove the "About KDE" box is not necessary,
is it? So I can understand if someone gets unhappy with it
being removed. If there's no necessity for it, then there might be
some unfriendly reasons, and that's what I and many others think it
is. Unfriendly. Unfair.

To change the look and feel to get a consistent desktop is okay, to remove
the "About KDE" box isn't.

Best regards

Tim


By Tim Gollnik at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

It might be a bit unfriendly... Yes. :) But I'm sure they are doing it in the interest of potential users not to harm anyone (otherwise, would they have it made public in a changelog? They could have written "Screwed KDE! Yeah!" in this case as well ;)) and it certainly isn't unfair. Some of the reactions here do highly exaggerate, just talking with Red Hat would be easier.
And they didn't remove the about box anyway but the link to the KDE about box from every applications help menu. This is a big difference! So the wording that many people use makes it seem worse than it is ("They removed the credits to KDE!"). I hope the about KDE box is still accessable from the desktop. If it isn't, this is a problem that could be fixed. It's a beta after all.

Oh and about the "unfriendly" part, the actions of some of the KDE developers towards Red Hat lastly weren't exactly friendly either. :) It just seems that Red Hat and KDE won't become best friends anytime soon (which is sad), so both will just do what they can do best, providing free software that serves the user well.


By Spark at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

No, no... sorry to imply that if you don't think in legal terms you have to agree that removing the About KDE box was bad.

Ironically, I think Red Hat is perfectly okay in doing this. I worry about it, because I think that Red Hat has such an influence upon the perception of Linux, and so I hope that KDE is showcased well - I'm tired of hearing "KDE looks ugly", etc. But an important point that I did *not* make (that I should have) is that Red Hat has yet to release this product, so I'm withholding my statement (note that I said this decision was asinine, but did not say anything directly about Red Hat the corporation).

KDE has been incorrectly portrayed over and over again, so many users who have been around since 1.0 (like myself) are very sensitive to potential and incipent misrepresentation. After all, we all know:

KDE is anti-GPL
KDE is a Windows Clone
KDE apps can only be coded in C++
KDE is a Linux desktop
KDE forces you to use their Window Manager
KDE is really slow, taking 20 seconds to launch an app.
KDE is ugly and not themeable
KDE is developed solely by Europeans
KDE is used soley by Europeans
KDE is based on a toolkit with a commercial license
KDE apps can't share components
KDE versions are incompatable with each other
KDE apps have to be recompiled for each minor version

All of which are myths, to the point that there is a Anti-Myth KDE site. I run into these over and over again. And I know that if Red Hat releases according to what this preview represents, people will say "KDE doesn't have an Email application - it uses Evolution" and "KDE looks really flat and boring". So I worry.

And yes, it is rude to take something and chop off the credits. Picture someone getting a handknitted sweater, and yanking out the tag that says "Handmade by Nanna to John". It's just rude. It doesn't "cripple KDE", and it's not "illegal", it's just flat out inconsiderate, rude behaviour.

--
Evan


By Evan "JabberWok... at Tue, 2002/08/27 - 5:00am

> in the future, Red Hat is perfectly positioned to dump GNOME and go with KDE by default

Ah, yes, of course, it is simple and obvious, you begin by remove Konqueror and Kmail from the KDE desktop, replacing them with Gnome programs, and then you put Konqueror and Kmail on the Gnome desktop !

Thank you Groucho !


By Alain at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

> Ah, yes, of course, it is simple and obvious, you begin by remove Konqueror
> and Kmail from the KDE desktop, replacing them with Gnome programs, and then > you put Konqueror and Kmail on the Gnome desktop !

No. :p

But it does make perfect sense if you think about it in terms of minimizing change and the associated inconvenience to the end-user.

Red Hat 9 will be defaulting to GNOME/Mozilla/Evolution, yes?

Then, with a consistent look and feel, a couple of versions down the line, Red Hat can easily switch to KDE/Mozilla/Evolution by default. The panel has changed, the desktop and file manager are a bit different, but it looks and feels approximately the same. Most importantly, the apps which Red Hat desktop users use most, the web browser and email client, are exactly the same as they were. People who were using KDE in Red Hat 9 notice no difference at all.

Then, having got everyone used to the KDE panel/desktop/file manager, a few versions later they can swap Mozilla out for Konqueror, and a few versions down the line still, they can maybe swap Evolution out for some yet-to-be-finished KDE app that is a full replacement for Evolution.

This minimizes inconvenience for end-users by staggering major changes to the end-user experience over several versions of Red Hat, thus reducing the amount of frightening 'new stuff' that needs to be learned. Most people don't mind slow, gradual change over a period of time, but they don't like sudden large changes.

Whether or not Red Hat takes this route is, I suspect, largely dependent on whether GNOME 2.2 is up to scratch, whether it starts to catch up on KDE in functionality and usability or whether it falls behind. At this point in time I don't think anybody can say realistically one way or the other - GNOME 2.0 is now at least in the same ballpark as KDE, but it's simply far too early in the GNOME 2.2 development cycle, and KDE 3.1 has yet to be released either.

I just find it interesting that Red Hat has created an escape route from GNOME to KDE that has minimal discomfort to their users. I can't tell you whether this is intentional or not, but it does now exist and it didn't exist before. You draw your own conclusions.


By My Left Foot at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

It will rather be Red Hat 8. ;)

I guess you are right in that it will be more about the actual quality and usability of the software instead of it's look. That can only be a good thing.


By Spark at Mon, 2002/08/26 - 5:00am

I see that the identity of KDE is attacked inside and outside.

Inside, some ones of the KDE League want that Linux-KDE will be called KGX, with a G like Gnome-Gnu and a X like XP-MacOsX. Outside some ones want to remove the KDE about box (what a symbol !) and replace Konqueror and Kmail, the 2 most important KDE apps, by Gnome apps.

I hope that KDE developpers and users will strongly defend the KDE identity.


By Alain at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

If you're going to troll, at least be a little more subtle.


By delete at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

Perhaps you are an example of subtility...
I am surprised to see how many posts are here defending the Red Hat action and are trying to minimize the strange new KGX use (http://dot.kde.org/1029961632/1030031353/).
If continuing, it is going to weaken KDE...


By Alain at Sun, 2002/08/25 - 5:00am

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