MAR
3
2003

LinuxQuestions Members Choice Awards: KDE Best Desktop

LinuxQuestions.org has just
announced
the results of its 2002 LinuxQuestions.org Members Choice Award
Winners
. KDE took first place in the category
Desktop Environment of the Year with 59.14% of the votes.
KDE applications also did very well in virtually every other GUI category.
Congratulations to the many talented and dedicated developers whose
achievements have been recognized.

Category
Application
Showing
Notes

Web Development Editor of the Year
Quanta Plus
Second place (47.65%)
Bluefish took first place

Mail Client of the Year
KMail
Second place (26.76%)
Evolution took first place from KMail this year with 35.55%

Office Suite of the Year
KOffice
Second place (10.16%)
OpenOffice was the big winner

Browser of the Year
Konqueror
Third place (15.61%)
Mozilla was the big winner; Galeon snuck into second

Word Processor of the Year
KWord
Third place (11.26%)
swriter (OpenOffice) and AbiWord took first and second

Speadsheet of the Year
KSpread
Third place (10.55%)
scalc (OpenOffice) and Gnumeric took first and second

Editor of the Year
Kate
Fifth place (7.51%)
CLI editors were the big winners: Vim, Emacs, vi and pico

Comments

I'm probably one of the silent majority who loves KDE for the framework and integrated apps it offers but who still use other, non-KDE 'main' applications. That means Evolution over KMail (but Kontact will be a seriuous contender), Mozilla/Galeon over Konqueror ( but Apple might have a big impact here...), Mozilla Composer over Quanta as for my needs, Composer's WYSIWYG is the killer feature (but as we heard from Laffoon, that might change in the coming months) So I'm quite convinced that if Gnome doesn't get their act together, I'll be using the KDE equivalents before long.
Some KDE apps however don't even get near Gnome equivalents (eg. Gimp/Krita, Sodipodi/Karbon14) and will remain that way for the foreseable future.
Then there are the non-KDE, none-Gnome apps like Blender, OpenOffice, Mplayer for which there is no KDE competition.
Of course, some major apps have a KDE leader like KDevelop, Konq-the-file-manager, and a couple more.
So on the whole, KDE is already looking good and is set to get better soon, but wther complete domination will be reached (or if it is even desirable...) is pretty unlikely. Agree? Disagree?

Yours,
UglyMike
Satisfied KDE user


By UglyMike at Mon, 2003/03/03 - 6:00am

One thing missing in KDE is a _good_ default GUI for the mediaplayer Noatun. A GUI like Windows Mediaplayer.

Well, many of the apps you mention are not gnome apps but it is true that some Koffice apps don't seem to get the developers they need...


By KDE User at Mon, 2003/03/03 - 6:00am

Yuck... while I'm not a big fan of noatun, I can't imagine it being good to imitate windows media player. The version from a few years ago was pretty good, but it's gone WAY downhill.


By Anonymous at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

You are right: but why isn't there anybody willing to help in KOffice?
Why not you? It is not complicated to write office applications.
Everybody who is able to add small things is very welcomed. Many things do not need much knowledge about the whole application.

I don't if there are more than 10 people right now working on KOffice regularly...

There must be some people out there capable of speaking a little bit c++... *dreaming*


By Norbert at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

You make it sound so easy. Don't you agree that it's very difficult to just sit down and read & understand other peoples code?

That said, I don't want to discourage people either. It can be done, if you are willing to put in a lot of time.


By ac at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

No, (for me) it's not that hard. And for most of things you just need to understand the few lines you are working on or the lines where you integrate new features. And the new feature code is yours.
Even now after working on my current project for a year, I haven't seen all of the code. But I also fix bugs in other projects.

And also: you can get a lot of help from people knowing the code very well.


By Norbert at Thu, 2003/03/06 - 6:00am

Mozilla is a non-gnome app!


By mathjazz at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

I've read some posts on the net about the posibility of having a second go at at KIMP not that GIMP 2.0 is under way. Is that even feasable? If it is, would anybody be likely to give it a go?


By Kostumer at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Do you have anything rational or just the same old rumors? Frankly the gimp is pretty powerful and I was thrilled to find it but the more I use it the more I begin to detest it's interface. I espeically hate trying to select a layer from the list for image maps when I have several images open with many layers each. It just drops off the screen. It's the most brain dead ui element I've ever seen. Even Motif would pop up another list column to complete it.

Last I heard they gimp team is not decoupling the ui from the functionality so putting another interface is a lot more than just coding the interface. Have you heard something I haven't? There is a decent start on a package in Koffice but last I heard all they did was give it a crummy name. It needs developers. Mosfet is looking at doing something but it's primarily a paint program. ImageMagik has lots of potential to get there fast but the underlying API changes enough from version to version you have to spec an exact version, not an "at least" version.

If you really want it you could do what I did... Learn to code and sponsor a full time developer. That is how most of Quanta gets done. Maybe in a year or two we will be able to assist or take on a KDE graphics package. If I had community support to sponsor more developers I might take on such a task... but even managing a project and trying to bring in and manage developers is more work than most people know. FWIW I want a good KDE based graphics tool bad enough to consider even less sleep and losing more work time... Better someone else gets motivated to do this. ;-)

FOSS gets built by a remarkably small percentage of people making any contribution whatsover. If more people acted on their concept of community a lot more would be getting done.


By Eric Laffoon at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

I love the GIMP but I would love it more to see it being ported to KDE as a real Photoshop alternative with equal look and feel. There is still nothing outside that could beat the hell out of Photoshop. There are many advantages porting the GIMP to KDE:

- Better Framework and Plattform,
- Rapid development. The Gimp would be more today,
- Better Maintainance,
- Better integration into other apps due KParts and plugins e.g. easy extension.

Think about it. I bet there are many people outside who would welcome this. At least for my personal opinion I'm missing a serious competitor to The Gimp but more in the means of Photoshop. A real competition. So at the end I can finally made a complete cut from the GTK+ cruft dependency on my current system. KDE now has many major applications, that still need some more tweaking but the framework and the current usability and intuitivity of the apps are cool. I see a good future for KDE.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

> - Better integration into other apps due KParts and plugins e.g. easy extension
Gimp is a gtk-app. If they'd do the rather simple step to make it a GNOME-bonobo-app it woul integrate very well into "GOffice". But loose it's platform independency.

Krita as "KDE's gimp" is nice, but no one is working on it anymore :-(
For me it already has everything I need. Too sad it's not shiped with koffice 1.3. Even if it would be under active development, it couldn't beat gimp or even photoshop. But it could gain many users from gimp. Just because it's powerful enough for most users and has a much easier interface than gimp.
KDE (Unix at all) would really need such an easy to use "painting"-tool.

ciao


By Guenter Schwann at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Well have you looked at The Gimp 1.3 it's really close to mature into a total GNOME application. Only a matter of time. GConf (Windows Registry for GNOME) should soon become part of GTK+ as Havoc Pennington wrote on developer.gnome.org Mailinglist and chances are good that The Gimp will adapt it one day. It's just a matter of time until it matures into a fullworthy Gnome application. Yes Krita is kinda nice but not really serious compared to Gimp that's why it really needs work.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

> Yes Krita is kinda nice but not really serious compared to Gimp that's why it really
> needs work.

For me (and many others) it suits my needs already. Krita's strength is (would be) not it's featureset, but it's easier interface than gimp.
Even if krita would be under active development it wouldn't catch up with gimp's features for the next year(s). But many users would be happy to be able to have a graphics suit they can easily use (many user do not want to use gimp because of it's interface).

ciao


By Guenter Schwann at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

You sure it will take years ? I doubt !

Well anyways I would welcome if Krita would mature and become some equivalent and easy to use as Photoshop under Windows or MacOS. I mean how can you be sure that it takes years to keep up with The Gimp if you haven't tried it. By saying so you bascially STOP the project before it really begins to mature because of the personal justification you have. I mean if the developer at least lays his hands on it and push it up to his maximal extends of capabilities then I it's possible. I bet it's also possible to take a lot of Gimp plugins and convert them to C++ maybe not the GUI but the engine itself. May reduce a lot of time.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

If the only way to estimate how long someothing will take was trying to do it, there would be even more half-done projects out there.

In fact, I think those who act like that are the ones who don't finish them (and I am one ;-)

Ex GNOME User, oGALAXYo, Ali, or however you want to be called today, before investing a large amount of effort for years (and yes, it is going to be years, even if catching up with GIMP could be done in months, which I doubt), someone has to look at the task ahead, and decide if he is going to jump in a full pool.

Not doing it is, IMHO, not smart.


By Roberto Alsina at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Hehe, Ex GNOME user, maybe AC was better afterall. So transparent. He doesn't cease to amuse me.


By minkwe at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Someone on OSNews.com told you that AC stands for Anonymous Coward. Which is Default on /. for people who like to stay anonymous. Anyways you can't blame me for that since everyone is welcome to read the 'Ex GNOME user' comments and he or she will find out that I only made my point with valid comments without being offensive or insulting to other people. you can say and try what you want but these are the facts.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Havoc Pennington is not Gimp maintainer, so what he says about the future of gimp should not be taken very seriously (by the way, I have not find such a post on the gnome-dev list, could you give me an exact URL).

On the other hand, Gimp maintainers have stated:
- that gimp 2 will have a separation beteen the core and the interface(*)
- that gimp is not a gnome app, but a gtk app (thanks God!)

If Mr. Pennington or his colleague Mr. Taylor have time to spend, better would it be to debug Gnome and GTK, to answer to bug-reports, that to try to upset gimp users and maintainers by imposing changes that are not welcome (like the new default for change-accels).

Then maybe, they will have a chance to produce a desktop as user friendly as KDE, that is configurable, definitely one of its best qualities.

Regards,

(*) maybe like LyX. Remember LyX. KDE people forked to an ugly and unstable KLyX. The hard way preferred by LyX people was to make the program GUI Independant. It was a long tedious way, but nowadays, LyX-Qt is here. Still needs polish, but there are two LyX with common code, and a LyX-Gtk is in work.
Conclusion: To see a KDE/Qt Gimp, maybe the best way is to help the current Gimp/GEGL project instead of creating a Quirk and Dirty clone of Gimp.


By oliv at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

No, i haven't written that Havoc Pennington is a Gimp Maintainer. I wrote that Havoc Pennington likes to get GConf into GTK+ which is quite some difference between Night and Day.

Here the writing that Havoc likes to bring GConf to the GTK+ level.

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2003-February/msg00154...

He also talks later in this Thread that KDE is going to adapt GConf as default configuration or has been adapted it already.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Havoc is not a KDE developer so what he says about KDE development should not be taken very seriously.


By anon at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

No I haven't written you had written that Havoc Pennington is a Gimp maintainer. I have written that Havoc Pennington is not a gimp maintainer, which is quite some difference between Night and Day. :-)

Thanks for the link, by the way. I never said you were lying. I said I could not find it and would be interested to read it.


By oliv at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Hehe, no problems! Misunderstandings could happen. I'm glad we cleared it up.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

That's not entirely true, what Havoc is talking about is creating a new config system over at freedesktop.org, that is desktop neutral. He does not say it should be a part of GTK+, he said it would be *below* the GTK level, ie as a shared lib usable by all software.

You're talking out of your ass when you claim he says KDE will adapt GConf. For starters, this is just idle talk. Secondly, if one day KDE does replace KConfig, it'll be with a desktop-neutral standard, which won't be GConf (as gconf is tied to gnome). It might well be something a bit like it however.


By Mike Hearn at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Dude, you are able to read aren't you ? I had various personal conversations with HavocPennington and some exchanged Mails with KDE developers. There are NO plans to implement a NEW configuration system. IamTheRealMike, why don't you investigate before commenting on various places ? You think you know everything better than others which is seriously not the case.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

"There are NO plans to implement a NEW configuration system.".....

which is what I said - "For starters, this is just idle talk." and "if one day KDE does replace KConfig" - notice the word if.

Also, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to read private emails you've had with KDE developers and Havoc.

Finally, I think it's amusing that you decide to throw in my Slashdot nick for seemingly no reason. Are you the anonymous coward who decided to randomly flame me the other day, using my real name in the post?

"You think you know everything better than others which is seriously not the case."

And why would you think that? My postings to this forum have been minimal. Or are you the guy I was talking with on email the other day?


By Mike Hearn at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Sorry in the previous mail you wrote

"That's not entirely true, what Havoc is talking about is creating a new config system over at freedesktop.org, that is desktop neutral."

This assumes me to belive that there are plans for a new configuration system which is not GConf.

The rest of your comments I leave open because you make no sense now. You can't come up with valid points anymore and turned the way off of making normal comments so other readers at least get the feeling that we do a normal conversation here. I am a bit sick about people who can't argue anymore and turn into the TROLL mode. Sorry no offense again.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

"This assumes me to belive that there are plans for a new configuration system which is not GConf."

Well, there are I think, in Havocs head. But it's just a "wouldn't it be cool if kde and gnome shared a config system" type thing, there are no hard plans or decisions made, DBUS is the first priority, maybe later stuff can be built on top of that. For now he simply wants to make GConf more generic and not tied into gnome as much i think.

"You can't come up with valid points anymore and turned the way off of making normal comments so other readers at least get the feeling that we do a normal conversation here. I am a bit sick about people who can't argue anymore and turn into the TROLL mode. Sorry no offense again."

????? I don't understand this paragraph, except it leaves me convinced that you are in fact oGALAXYo.


By Mike Hearn at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

> Well, there are I think, in Havocs head. But it's just a "wouldn't it be cool if
> kde and gnome shared a config system" type thing, there are no hard plans or
> decisions made, DBUS is the first priority, maybe later stuff can be built on
> top of that. For now he simply wants to make GConf more generic and not tied
> into gnome as much i think.

Well Havoc's plans are to put GConf into GTK+ at least from what I was able to read from the Mail he wrote on Desktop-Developer-List. I'm actually no mindreader so I don't know what the 5 majors in GNOME are planning. But I don't go on places and write about planned imaginary Configuration Systems that was meant to be discussed on Freedesktop.org.

> > "You can't come up with valid points anymore and turned the way off of
> > making normal comments turn into the TROLL mode. Sorry no offense again."

> I don't understand this paragraph, except it leaves me convinced that you are
> in fact oGALAXYo.

By the way, nice try. Or better nice try that you turn a normal conversation and make it some sort of "look that troll" comment. Sorry to disappoint you you already tried on slashdot and various other places and the #gnome-de people on irc.sventech.com whom I have told about totally laughed about you. By using/trying a different Desktop Environment this doesn't mean that I also turned the back of my people there whom I went through all sorts of things over the time. Anyways I like to encourage everyone to investiagte and compare on their own of what I wrote and what not. And I told you various times even per eMail in a friendly way that I only write about GNOME. There is no need for you or anyone else to get personal. You have serious issues understanding this. You yet try again and again and again. It's a big difference if we sit down and discuss the pros and cons about a Desktop or go onto a place and take people to the shambles by calling them trolls, slander and libel them. You exactly did this here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=55517&cid=5412666

Called my UI review to be a Troll while it was discussed with the GNOME germany people. It's even stored on http://www.gnome.org/. The whole UI review was good, necessary, backed by GNOMERS and good. That's why I don't see you as serious conversation person.

Dude realize that I still have a good relationship to many GNOME developers. And it makes me a fair strong person to write the truth how I see things in public discussion places such as this here where right now more GNOME people are replying than KDE ones what I think specially when I directly got asked for it. This is another reason why I think that GNOME has issues in, even in the case that GNOME may or may not be a good Desktop plattform but it's sad to see that people can't play in teams. Far to many individuals on it that rip their head of each other. I welcome you to the #gnome or #gnome-de channel, visit it see me idling there and have a nice conversation with the people. You don't see anyone there riping my head off just because of my opinion.


By Ex GNOME user at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

This war between KDE and GNOME is getting ridiculous. Looks like some people are jealous of GNOME apps, and want them subverted to KDE. GIMP and GNOME share a common heritage, GNOME IS built on the GIMP TOOLKIT. You have to live with the fact that some GNOME apps are better than the KDE ones, and the GNOME guys also have to live with the fact that sometimes KDE apps are better than GNOME ones.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. All that is needed is focus. I would much rather see a common spec for creating GUI's in Linux, and then all your applications would take on the native Desktop's environment look and feel. But that is a tall order.

I think though, that Mono might just be the last bit that gives GNOME a development environment that is as good as KDE's. I mean, if the rapid devlopment of .NET (Mono) is realised, GNOME might just become more exciting.

As for competition, Whoever says competition is not helping the Linux desktop grow better is a liar. Look at this forum. KDE and GNOEM developers are earnestly trying to outdo ech other. That can only be good.


By Maynard at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

> This war between KDE and GNOME is getting ridiculous.

What WAR ? Sorry but why do you and some others see a WAR in everything ? What we did the past couple of writings here was just explaining the pro's and con's nothing else.

Well for MONO and .NET are you seriously that sure that many GNOME developers are happy with MONO and welcome it with open arms ? It's only a proof that C is not suited for rapid applications development, the reason why Miguel de Icaza wrote it. To be able to rapid develop applications for GNOME. Thus leads to the conclusion that writing GNOME in C and various other hacks called languages was plain wrong and don't lead in the speed he likes to see. How many languages are now used to build an entire GNOME system ? C, C++, Python, Pearl and soon MONO .NET this will add another complexity and the maintainance getting dealt with all the code is really timeconsumming. One who needs to care for the C code, then another one who needs to care for the C++ code then Python then Pearl and so on. I personally belive that this is not such an good evolution. I played with MONO 0.18 some weeks ago, compiled and installed it and was horrified with the *.exe files and *.dll files it installed on a UNIX like plattform.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

Mosfet is currently writing a KDE based painter called MosfetPaint. I think that it will evolve into a serious Gimp competitor in a few months.


By Androgynous Howard at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

I'm hoping that Mosfetpaint will turn out to be a modern Deluxe Paint (a la Amiga) equivalent. DP is the only paint program I've really been able to understand. :) I still run it in UAE when I need to create graphics.


By Apollo Creed at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

I totally agree :) Although TVPaint from newtek is stunning as well!


By m0ns00n at Thu, 2003/04/17 - 5:00am

Can you please back up these assertions? I see people claiming these things, but never backing them up. This isn't a troll, I want to see the arguments behind the claims.

"- Better Framework and Plattform,"

Please be more specific. I know all about KDEs architecture, so no need to repeat stuff. Please tell me why it's "better" and what that means.

"- Rapid development. The Gimp would be more today"

Possibly, but only by using KDE code, which would tie it to KDE. They don't want to do that, the GIMP is used by all sorts of people regardless of what desktop the y use (and also on windows). So..... what else? BTW I've yet to be convinced that C++ is a "better" language than C, more features yes, harder yes (therefore fewer hackers).

"- Better Maintainance"

Why?

"- Better integration into other apps due KParts and plugins e.g. easy extension"

Not sure what you'd embed, the GIMP is an image editing app. I can't see people embedding a mini-gimp into KWord or whatever, nor vice-versa. You neglect to mention that in this case "other apps" really means "other KDE apps", which is a small subset of all available applications.

What's really needed is a cross desktop, reasonably neutral object model.

"So at the end I can finally made a complete cut from the GTK+ cruft dependency on my current system"

What's the point in that? It's just a widget toolkit. Why not dump Xlib as well, after all, it's written in C and isn't KDE? You seem to have something against GTK/Gnome, but you haven't explained why even using it is so bad. I use the Gimp 1.3.x, and it's really quite nice these days.

"I see a good future for KDE."

Yeah, me too.


By Mike Hearn at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

> > "- Better Framework and Plattform,"

> Please be more specific. I know all about KDEs architecture, so no need to
> repeat stuff. Please tell me why it's "better" and what that means.

Yeah that's why you recently switched from KDE to GNOME and advocate it now. But yes I think that KDE has a better framework than GNOME first of all there are documents on the KDE developer page where you can actually READ about the KDE architecture and the libraries used inside. It's not like on GNOME where one app looks differently like the other app while on KDE you can simply inherit an object and have you app look similar to the other apps used on KDE because of real OO design and OO language you use. OO is definately better suited for a Desktop plattform than C. Don't you agree ? You can play Lego with KDE you take something and put it inside something else and it works. Look at Kaplan for example, it hasn't taken any long and you saw Kmail, Kaddressbook, Kalender and some other stuff inside it's rendering Window and still remain usable as their standalone app. Look at Nautilus as an example. Everything stuffed inside as Nautilus View. Even own applications are written only to work for Nautilus they should simulate the powers of Konqueror that way since you can do much work inside Konqueror but on the GNOME planet they forget that on the KDE side they work with KParts. The applications on the KDE side are existing. e.g. A CD-Burner program embedds some stuff as KParts and Konqueror is able to use it as well. But you know that you still being able to run the application as standalone. Good example on the GNOME side is nautilus-cd-burner as the name says only usable in Nautilus and people only know it to be there when they enter burn:// otherwise they never realize it to be there since there is no standalone application that suggest it. All those Nautilus views are what it is only usable in Nautilus. Not compareable with KParts. It would have make more sense to get rid of Nautilusview and have the components be real Bonobo ones so I can use my porno picturees viewer and use it to jack off while using the same program to burn the pictures on CD. Besides the last sentence as sarcasm that's what I mean. Call me wrong if you want. But I as developer actually am able to read on the KDE development pages about the framework while it stays a big secret on the GNOME side. Let's assume GNOME's framework is better but how do you think I should find out ? Spending years learning from sources how things are used to work instead spending 1 Week reading a nice onlinebook (on KDE) to learn all about the api and framework ? You may guess which one is better. Look at the various helping souls who help on GNOME they definately do a good hard job no doubt and saying something else is wrong. But without any good books, explaining references and other stuff people are progressing slowly because they need to investigate into new things which takes really ages. Even I have serious problems understanding Bonobo, BonoboUI and other stuff and this is really a hell to learn and NO documentations and I call myself an experienced Programmer but should I cut manuals out of my left leg ? I spent days in the source of Bonobo, spent days in the Reference Manuals, spent hours reading the little writings made by Michael Meeks and and and but they only cover a tip of the whole tree. Do you want to blame me because of this ? That's why I think KDE is better.

> > "- Rapid development. The Gimp would be more today"

> Possibly, but only by using KDE code, which would tie it to KDE. They don't
> want to do that, the GIMP is used by all sorts of people regardless of what
> desktop the y use (and also on windows).

Well it was just an idea. Do you blame me for having that idea ? The idea having a default KDE photo manipulating program in the means of Photoshop or the Gimp are not bad after all. Seamingless implementation into KDE.

> > "- Better integration into other apps due KParts and plugins e.g. easy
> > extension"

> Not sure what you'd embed, the GIMP is an image editing app. I can't see
> people embedding a mini-gimp into KWord or whatever, nor vice-versa. You
> neglect to mention that in this case "other apps" really means "other KDE
> apps", which is a small subset of all available applications.

You can split parts of it out so it can be used by other applications can't you ? E.g. having an Layers manipulating object which then can be used in other applications, When embedding a picture into Kword you can embedd some simple functionality of a GFX program inherited out of objects to have simple image manipulation out of KWord and so on. Can you do it with The Gimp ? No !

> What's really needed is a cross desktop, reasonably neutral object model.

That's an idea.


By Ex GNOME user at Tue, 2003/03/04 - 6:00am

You know I have the wierdest feeling I'm talking to Ali Akcaagac once more. Why not use your real name also, Ex Gnome User?

1) Documentation. Yes, GNOME takes a whipping here. They have focussed more on the desktop than on infrastructure.

2) Parts. Well, you realise a Nautilus View is in fact a Bonobo object right? It could be used in other apps, but why? It represents a CD to be burned as a file browser location, I'm not sure what other apps would need such functionality. Nonetheless, it's there if you need it.

I'm sort of split on KParts vs CORBA. I think CORBA gets a bad rap, mostly because all the example code out there is C, and CORBA on C is horrible. I stumbled across a half-finished Bonobo/Python tutorial and was really impressed... so far I haven't seen another technology other than .NET which lets you write objects in any language and use them in any other. It also used to be the case that Bonobo/CORBA was pretty slow, but these days it's much faster than DCOP for out of process, and the Shlib stuff is much better in GNOME2 so you can do inproc (like kparts) as well.

On the other hand, KParts gains simplicity (something corba is most certainly not) at the cost of features. Like, they have to be C++ (or did last time i checked).

I think CORBA is a better long term solution at present, but unfortuntely it doesn't get much attention docs or evangelism wise.. it's also more complex as tim janson pointed out. It really needs a super-slick and easy to use implementation. C is not the ideal language for that.

OK, so I'm mostly convinced on the documentation point. KDE is better in this regard. In GNOME you can inherit from GnomeApplication I think, but.... I only know this because I read it. No docs :(

I hadn't thought of splitting the various Gimp components out. That would be good yes, but unfortunately KParts isn't really up to the job, as GNOME is Glib C and KDE is Qt/C++. That's why a decent object model is needed, to bridge these different platforms. But what?


By Mike Hearn at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

> You know I have the wierdest feeling I'm talking to Ali Akcaagac once more. Why
> not use your real name also, Ex Gnome User?

Yes, that's who I am. But I prefer anonymoty over using my real name all the time.

Your other reply is indeed a good one. To say in respect that this was the first reply from you that I really agree most with. I wished we could base all our comments on this which makes it a good base on further discussions. I mean what does the best implemention give one if the documentations are missing. Nothing that is the case with Bonobo and various other things. So far nothing more to add from my side.. Respect for this good reply.


By Ex GNOME user at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

What is the point of anonymity if everyone knows who you are?

I mean, I see a post, it consists of twelve line paragraphs, it is from someone who claims to have dropped KDE for GNOME or GNOME for KDE in the last couple of weeks, and mentions he is a developer, I know it's you! ;-)

BTW: just how many times have you switched? I could swear I saw you posting as oGALAXYo on osnews saying you had switched to GNOME not even 2 weks ago, yet here you are, and you switched to KDE again?


By Roberto Alsina at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

> What is the point of anonymity if everyone knows who you are?

So, does everyone else know who I am ? I mean if so who actually cares what bad does it cause or what bad information will this give to you ? Even in the case I plug a sticker on my head saying hey I am GALAXY, will it actually change something ? trying to achive maximum anonymoty is my good right and nothing to feel ashamed of and nothing you or anyone else could blame me for.

> I mean, I see a post, it consists of twelve line paragraphs, it is from
> someone who claims to have dropped KDE for GNOME or GNOME for KDE in the last
> couple of weeks, and mentions he is a developer, I know it's you! ;-)

I haven't written that I dropped GNOME for KDE and vice versa, to say I am using both Desktops, permanently switching to the one and the other because I can't decide where to stay. After my pre KDE 3.0 experience I have seriously HARD times. Actually I use KDE here for doing my normal workd and some hours per day I am on GNOME because for development on Atlantis. Nothing bad for that and all this doesn't make my comments less reliable or less valid. I would appreciate if we can drop personalities here and concentrate again on productive Desktop conversation.


By Ex GNOME user at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Ali, I realy don't understand most of what you wrote, but as a general rule, lying is not a right.

Why do I say lying? Because you just said you use GNOME daily. But you post as "Ex GNOME User". So, you are saying you are an "Ex User" when you are not. And that is not true, and you know it. Therefore, it is a lie.

Now, expression opinion is a right. Damn it, I express more opinion than average! And doing it anonymously is, of course your right.

But anonymity has a price. The price of anonymity is that you have no credibility. You have no credibility because noone knows who you are, and why should anyone trust the opinion of the nameless unknown? And after you post anonymously things that are not true, well... let's say that I don't expect any oGALAXYo, Ali, whatever posts to be taken seriously, except by the uninformed.


By Roberto Alsina at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Listen, you are getting seriously too far right now. The Nickname I have chosen here was decided less than 1 second when pressing reply for the first comment I gave. Calling my a liar is highly insulting and you need to show me where I actually have lied. Didn't I gave you a fair answer after you asked who I am ? I mean what are you up to right now and what does it have to do with my good points that I have brought up regarding GNOME here with the nick 'Ex GNOME user' ? You can go from top to bottom of this entire Posting and read them then you can comment on them and show me wrong. Then and only then you can show me being a liar but not earlier. I don't know who you are and I don't even know who the other 2 are who permanently come up and trying something on me without any justification. I fully stand behind my comments made here which where in no case and in no situation either insulting to GNOME or KDE. Just made up my clear points on what I think. In what world do we life where I need to contact people to ask what I'm allowed to write and what not. Now do you have anything to add to what I have written as 'Ex GNOME user' and where you can show me being a liar ? If not then please simply shut up. All my comments here have grounding because I am probably one of the minor ones who seriously tried KDE and GNOME before opening the mouth and my comments about lack of documentations for developers are as valid as everything else I wrote.


By Ex GNOME user at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Ali, I never asked who you were, so you hardly could have given me a fair answer "when I asked". Now, you say, I must show where you lied? Simple, you claim to be an ex GNOME user, and you are not, and you obviously know it. It is very simple, really.

Posting wat you posted, under thaat name gives the impression of a GNOME user who is now using KDE (apparently since less than ten days ago), while the truth is that you are a GTK+ app developer who _also_ uses KDE. So, the message sent is not truthful.

In fact, under your various aliases you have claimed to have switched from GNOME to KDE, and viceversa, unless my memory betrays me.

Alas, a little googling shows it didn't:
" Well I recently switched back to GNOME 2.2 from months of using KDE 3.1 and I already start to regret my decision." from http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=2871&limit=no

This was not even 10 days ago. In that opst you describe your switching back and forth. I think you are not a KDE user, or a GNOME user, you are an undecided user.

Now, is this "ex GNOME user" thing a big lie? No. Is it an important lie? No. Do I care at all about it? No. Is it a lie? Of course! And since I am reading and posting to this board, and others may not have enough information to properly judge your postings, I add a piece of fairly uncontroversial data. Of course it should not impinge at all in any verifiable data you may offer about facts. It will probably impinge on the credibility of opinions, of course.

Now, you are experiencing what happens when you pretend to be several different characters (which is not strictly the same as being anonymous): It becomes hard to keep your stories straight.

You say "In what world do we life where I need to contact people to ask what I'm allowed to write and what not"

I am confused by this. I never asked you to contact anyone about what you write. Then again, I am perfectly free to post whatever I want, as well. As for who I am, it is pretty easy to find out, since my name is in all my posts. Then, if you really REALLY want to verify I wrote this, just email me.

What you wrote here, loudly complaining about things noone seems to have written (at least in this board) is quite bizarre.

Besides, you seem to believe I am defending GNOME. Trust me, such is not the case. It is just the principle of the thing, really.


By Roberto Alsina at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Ok I see you have nothing to add to my comments that I made previously. I accept it as is then and leave you alone.

It's always the same with these people. Once placed in a bad position they loose any points of argumentation and start becoming rude and unfair by attacking the person itself than arguing about the Plattform they use.

One last sentence. You quoted right.

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=2871&limit=no#75782

My exact writing. Before I tried KDE 3.0 (which was only meant to be a 5 mins test and then scratch it again but unfortunately got me sold) I was using GNOME for years permanently. Then I tried KDE 3.0 some pre-releases of it used it for nearly 4 Months. Got bored because I left some code open for GNOME that I liked to finish and switched back to GNOME CVS now I really often switch forth and back. Stuck in the same trouble that other users and developers have. Knowing that KDE is what I like GNOME to be and then on the otherhand knowing that I did to much for GNOME to simply ignore it or leave it that easy. Where is your point ? If you have asked nicely then I would have given you the same answer. And how do you compromise my randomly chosen nick for this conversation (that I seriously cut out of my butt) to be a liar of what I said. Dude you just got an exclusive reply 3 times from me now.

But no this is not what you like to show the readers outside. Your real intent is to suggest the readers how much of an asshole I am and that I am not trustable. This is your real intent, that's what you and someone else tried here and that's what you are up to. You were not even willing to reply to my feedback about GNOME that I gave because you know that I'm obviously right and that you have no real arguments against it. So you plan to make me look bad in the public. Right or not ? 3-4 Writings from you and all are meant to make me look bad.

I seriously shouldn't feed trolls.


By Ex GNOME user at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Ali, there is an obviour reason why I don't reply about your GNOME feedback. I don't care at all about GNOME! You see, I am not a ex GNOME user, or an ex KDE user. I am just a KDE user, and one time developer.

If I attacked you, well, you seem to be surprisingly reluctant to even accept the thought that saying you are an ex GNOME user when you use GNOME daily is, let's say, misleading. As you said

"It's always the same with these people. Once placed in a bad position they loose any points of argumentation".

And no, there are not "3 or 4 writings from me" and no, they are not all "to make you look bad". Perhaps you should go and read the thread?

Dude, this is probably not going to appear in the story because it seems the moderators have clamped down on us, but I hope you can read it. You really sound paranoid!


By Roberto Alsina at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Ahem. NO, the moderators have not clamped (yet). I just saw the wrong subthread :-)

But anyway, that got me thinking. Why am I arguing this? I have nothing to add. So, Ali, be my guest, and finish the thread. Whatever you say will remain uncontested, even if I have to chop a finger to stop myself.

Me? I think I will code a little.


By Roberto Alsina at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Trust me, we don't clamp down often at all. That last time, well things got started to an obvious trollfest and got way out of control when someone started posting some nasty ill-justified profanity.

All that and it was the second thread attached to a completely unrelated article.

I hate the thought of deleting stuff but that was just abuse. Wees got limits.


By Navindra Umanee at Wed, 2003/03/05 - 6:00am

Ex GNOME User says:

"I haven't written that I dropped GNOME for KDE and vice versa, to say I am using both Desktops, permanently switching to the one and the other because I can't decide where to stay."

which is a direct lie, because he says in a post near the top,

"I have choosen. After some years suffering on the GNOME plattform I finally made it up to KDE and will stay there."

So, the message is, STOP LYING! It does not help KDE when you lie to make a point.


By anon at Thu, 2003/03/06 - 6:00am

That is no lie it's all a matter how you lay out someone writings and how it was meant while it was written. You finally need to see things within a context and not cut it out of one.

When saying that he likes KDE and that he suffers the past years on GNOME and writing that he finally made it up to KDE and will stay there then this is no lie. It's just explaining how much impressed that person is by using KDE because he expected all the nice features that is in KDE to be in GNOME as well. Unfortunately this is not the case and probably won't make it in GNOME either. How can we judge and say that we are not going to use something else one day. Who of us is able to look in the future.

Anyways it's unfair sticking all the writings made by this person on one sentence he wrote. It's not the problem what he uses or not, that's finally his own decision. What matters is what he has to say in general. The whole GNOME project and everyone working on it are basically liars and so are we here on KDE.

How many times was it said that GNOME gets a new webpage with the GNOME 2.0 release. It never happened. The guy who promised it is a liar. Do we take that guy to the shambles and throw stones at his head ?

This whole community is build up on a big lie after all. How many times it was said that GNOME is the GNU project for desktops and now it's sold to commercial companies. What a big lie.

Now let me ask you one question. You found one conflicting sentence written by that person. Please bring up the proof that everything else he wrote is also a lie.


By anon2 at Fri, 2003/03/07 - 6:00am

Your lack of english skills gives you away man ;) It is quite obvious that you are defending yourself by speaking in the third person and adopting the anon2 moniker.

"How can we judge and say that we are not going to use something else one day."

Well apparently you had no problem doing this. After all you said that you were going to stick with KDE from now on. It's simple really. You lied.

"Please bring up the proof that everything else he wrote is also a lie."

I don't have to. I and the rest of society usually turn a deaf ear to people who lie, because they are untruthful. You do yourself a disservice by lying. I am as big a fan of KDE as anyone, but lying is not a good way to promote your favorite desktop. If you wish people to take you and your comments seriously then ... don't lie. Otherwise don't be surprised if you are dismissed out of hand. Who wants to listen to a liar.

The 'everyone else is a liar so why can't I' is no defense. It just makes you into a liar too. That is a choice that you made. Hopefully, you will choose not to lie in the future.


By anon at Fri, 2003/03/07 - 6:00am

Who should trust some anonymous jackass like you ? Sorry to call you that way but that's it after all. You don't comment on the context written by Ex GNOME user. Instead you only badmouth someone and try making him look like a liar in the public. Grow up and get some brain. If you have nothing to say about the context then simply shut up.


By anon2 at Fri, 2003/03/07 - 6:00am

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