JUL
18
2003

KDE-CVS-Digest for July 18, 2003

This week's digest features: Kig Python scripting support,
KPilot Palm generic db viewer, an action menu in
Konqueror to print
files, DVD burning in K3b, RDP support completed in krdc (KDE Remote Desktop Connection) and an httpmail
protocol ioslave. Plus many aRts bugfixes besides
KDevelop and
Quanta fixes
and improvements.

Comments

Who is Derek? I want to see a picture of him ;-)...


By anon at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

I got second post! Yay!!!


By That guy! But ... at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

Hi Derek,
I thought I'd post this here instead of in an email... don't ask about Quanta. I've done little but discuss stuff on the list this week, bring in some people and try to keep on top of what's happening. So if you ask all I will likely remember is that I need a vacation. ;-)

Okay, a little. KFileReplace is in our CVS for development and test purposes though it should be submitted to kdeutils once all the fixes are in. If you ever wanted to do find and replace on the next level this app kills! We're about done with ColdFusion support and in work on Zope and Javascript. We're adding a bunch of XML tools as well as new templates and I'm setting up extensive Movable Type Blogging support. I did promise Wil Wheaton it would be out... when did I say? Better late than never. Marc Britton just added a small rich text widget this morning for this.

I have a whole buch more stuff I've been working on I need to put in CVS. We can't let Andras have all the commits. ;-) Please email me next week for an update.

If anyone would like to fly me someplace tropical (or possibly to Nove Hrady) let me know. I can't seem to work for all the Quanta stuff. I may as well either relax or code. ;-)


By Eric Laffoon at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

Kig Python scripting support? wouldn't it be better if KDE apolications would start using Qt Script for Applications??


By Yoni at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

Why not dropping Qt Script in favor of Python? Python would be a good choice and the world doesn't need another VBA. *creeps away*


By Carlo at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

?

Qt Script uses JavaScript. If it would use Python it would be as "another VBA" as JavaScript is.


By Tim Jansen at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

Why not Hbasic?

http://hbasic.sf.net

:-)


By Gerd at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

You want to know what the problem with scripting applications is? It's that you want me to use your script language when I want to use mine. I may want to use bash scripting, Perl or have a little fun with PHP since it can now script (as of 4.3) easily in the shell. Not only that there is also DCOP, and frankly, since I haven't played much with Python and have with Javascript I really prefer what I know. No offense to Python.

For this reason we've been adding DCOP hooks to Quanta along with some direct program access and supporting the best scripting language ever. (Fill in your favorite here: _____) We've also done the same thing with Kommander, making it initially scriptless by using text associations, plugging in shell scripting and now adding script containers so your scripts can live in the same file.

Every time I see an app falling back on promoting one language prejudicially instead of using DCOP and allowing the user to choose their language it annoys me. When I want to script something I don't want to crack the books, I want to get it done and move on. This is exactly why these features rarely reach their potential... That and how absolutely hideously terrible M$ basic is at inconsistent behavior and being designed from the beginning to write structurally bad code. Gates and co. woudln't know good abstraction if it bit them on the ass!


By Eric Laffoon at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

>You want to know what the problem with scripting applications is? It's that you >want me to use your script language when I want to use mine.

Sounds like you're a fan of the concept of .NET ;-)

Sure, having language independent interfaces should be the goal of KDE in general. On the other hand, it would be good to have a "default" scripting language. And then you have to decide which: And Python would be a damn good choice, because it's a very powerful language, easy to learn and there exist proper bindings to KDE yet. -> http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/pykde/index.php

Have a look at eric3 -> http://www.die-offenbachs.de/detlev/eric3.html
It's written in Python based on Qt.


By Carlo at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

> >You want to know what the problem with scripting applications is? It's that you
> >want me to use your script language when I want to use mine.

> Sounds like you're a fan of the concept of .NET ;-)

Not particularly, but I think the CLR is an interesting concept. Nonetheless it couldn't be farther from what I'm talking about. I'm sorry to say I believe you are missing it and getting ready to wave the flag for your side again.

> Sure, having language independent interfaces should be the goal of KDE in general. On the other hand, it would be good to have a "default" scripting language. And then you have to decide which:

So when you go someplace, does one of you open the door for the other one of you? Your first two statements are utterly contradictory and you proceed to pick your language. If this is your "feel felt found" approach it needs work. Trust me. You are proving exactly my point. It's like going on slashdot and saying "I like KDE because Gnome sucks". Next you wonder why the flame war started. Actually it's even worse because it's like saying "you should have to use KDE (or Gnome) instead of the other if you run Linux". It eliminates a choice. I like choice.

Let's try this one more time for those in the back of the room with the paper airplanes and puzzled looks... IF (stay with me here...) If an application is built to be scriptable the designer must make descisions about the means of scripting. Those decisions are going to expose portions of his program to the user to enable them to accomplish tasks. This gives a programmer two concerns.
1) Adding useful scripting features to the interface
2) Preventing the user from accessing things that could be dangerous by accessing areas of the program where crashes could be caused and adding extreme complexity.

So, stay with me. Once again, the developer must do something to build an interface. Optimally they would love to do just #1. Eric uses PyKDE build on PyQt which is essentially designed for small application design with a graphical interface. It's mission focus has not been primarily scripting extentions so #2 above comes into play big time.

Stay with me. I wanted to set up this point thoroughly. Here it is. If the developer instead chooses a solid implementation of DCOP and/or other direct interfaces tht can use stdout to communicate then it's a whole new ball game. You can use Eric to build Python scripted dialog extentions to an app. Somebody else can use QSA or KJSEmbed. I can use Kommander and make it avaialbe for users who choose to use as little scripting as possible... and we can all be happy.

Your approach is going to make a lot of people unhappy and a lot of developers will never standardize on it because they prefer another language. Beyond that it will mean that a huge amount of good thinking and useful options and alternatives will be thrown out just because somebody wanted to shove their preferences down everybody's throat.

As I pointed out, there is no real express programming benefit to tying a program to a single language solution. It may even be more work! It is also detrimental to the adoption of the program. That is why we didn't do it with Quanta or Kommander.

BTW We don't even have any .NET support in Quanta and you might know it's a web application. What I'm a fan of is freedom of choice. kparts, DCOP and good design easily provide that without a CLR. I have an application to prove it, Quanta, in base KDE. Have a look at our Configure>Actions and Kommander.


By Eric Laffoon at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

Hello Eric,

I see the value of your point and I agree that for high-level steering of an application, it's probably the best way to go.

However, some applications with scripting support (I'm thinking of electronics design tools since that's my habitat...) are passing tons of data between the application - scripting language interface (hundreds of megabytes). In this case, I'm afraid that using DCOP is not a valid option, although I've never tested this in practice.

In addition, I will never write an application that 100% linked to a single environment (like KDE), so I use Qt instead which gives me a wide choice of platforms to work with. I'm not sure that DCOP can easily be ported to Windows.

Tom


By Tom Verbeure at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

> I see the value of your point and I agree that for high-level steering of an application, it's probably the best way to go.

Finally! Somebody gets it.

> However, some applications with scripting support (I'm thinking of electronics design tools since that's my habitat...) are passing tons of data between the application - scripting language interface (hundreds of megabytes). In this case, I'm afraid that using DCOP is not a valid option, although I've never tested this in practice.

I would have to check the current state of DCOP but this would not be a viable choice in my recollection. Those seem like absurd amounts of data to be shuffling around with scripting too.

> In addition, I will never write an application that 100% linked to a single environment (like KDE), so I use Qt instead which gives me a wide choice of platforms to work with. I'm not sure that DCOP can easily be ported to Windows.

DCOP is based on X11's ICE. So I think it is usable on the BSOD platform via Cygwin and it should work on OS/X with Fink. That would allow you to use KDE as opposed to just QT assuming those systems were so equiped. It may not be the best option at this time but native ports are in work.

You may want to try temp files because I can't remember if you can used named pipes on windoze. Under such circumstances as cross platform data exchange you may be stuck with whatever a script language can offer to manage the inconsistancies of the platform artchitectures.

BTW DCOP is not limited in this scenario. If you can access your interface via stdout you are in the game. DCOP calls can be made from stdout and can instruct the application to do whatever the programmer wanted like read or write files, open pipes, etc...


By Eric Laffoon at Mon, 2003/07/21 - 5:00am

>Not particularly, but I think the CLR is an interesting concept. Nonetheless it couldn't be farther from what I'm talking about. I'm sorry to say I believe you are missing it and getting ready to wave the flag for your side again.

I don't think I missed your point. I asked this "question" just to get an impression about your thoughts and testing your response. And I surely don't want to discuss the pros & cons of CLI/CLR here.

>So when you go someplace, does one of you open the door for the other one of you?

Yes and no. I want it language independent and I would prefer a single sample implementation in one scripting language. It's not that I say it should cover whole KDE. By now, DCOP / KDE Bindings are poorly documented. See it more as a wish for more documentation. That's what I want - better docs and a sample implementation. It's not that I say - do it Python - I say - do it in one a language that is easy to learn and powerful. And do it in a single one, because for the unexperienced user it's easier to learn one language, instead having to deal with a lot of samples in different languages and for the devs it's easier to maintain one sample implementation.

>So, stay with me.

I did. And you're right. But a lot of people, who don't want to dig deep into Qt/KDE will never use the bindings to other languages, if there isn't more documentation; And I prefer sample implementations as documentation.


By Carlo at Tue, 2003/07/22 - 5:00am

Derek and Malchior,

I really like the new statistics section. As I watch the kde-cvs regulary, this is the section that gives me the most interesting information. Thank you!

Andras

PS: Who is Gaute Hvoslef Kvalnes with so much code commited? ;-)


By Andras Mantia at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

> PS: Who is Gaute Hvoslef Kvalnes with so much code commited? ;-)

Not code, translations. He is the coordinator of the Norwegian Nynorsk team.


By Anonymous at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

I see. Anyway, good work! :-)

Andras


By Andras Mantia at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

It's okay Andras. You're not getting smoked that bad. ;-) You rock, and now you will no longer be the secret weapon of KDE with thes stats glaring out.

BTW Derek, I must agree. The stats are totally awesome.

If I might suggest again, you might consider TOC linking your page. This would make it easier to point people to specific stuff in the Digest. In fact I've got some cool stuff I could share with you. Drop me a line if I can help there.


By Eric Laffoon at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

That thingy is cool... How / where do you get it from?


By Stormy at Fri, 2003/07/18 - 5:00am

Some from bugs.kde.org, summary page. Others from the i18n page.

http://webcvs.kde.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/www/areas/cvs-digest/tools/ gives a list of the various scripts used to generate the digest.

The kde-cvs mailing list sends emails for each commit. They are sorted using kmail filters. The script goes through each email, grabs the pertinent information, then spits out the table that you see.

Melchior Franz did the table design with the indicator bars. I showed him a table that I had done, which was ugly. He took it, and sent back the layout that you see. I think it looks very good.

I would like to add a few links, such as some bio information on the developers, links to the modules, links to the bugs.kde.org queries. Here is some info on one famous and productive developer: http://www.dirk-mueller.com/html_e/!start.htm

Derek


By Derek Kite at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

This does not look like the same person as [http://people.kde.org/dirk.html].


By Erik at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

www.dirk-mueller.com is *not* the homepage of the famous KDE-Developer.


By Me at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

Well, I had a good laugh... wasn't it intended as a joke?


By Datschge at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

You mean that isn't the Dirk Mueller we know? There has to be someone who does fun and exciting things on the weekend.

Derek


By Derek Kite at Sun, 2003/07/20 - 5:00am

how about konqueror now?
in my KDE3.1.2 i can only see the data of the "1st session".
and in K3B it is not possible to add a new session or to view all sessions on the "unclosed" CD. really bad to start windows just to get data from an unclosed Multisession CD.


By mononoke at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

... file a bug report...

K3B ne version is out, check the changelogs.


By Gerd at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

For those who are interested, my own language Gambas can automate any KDE application via DCOP.

http://gambas/sourceforge.net

I made a little example named KateBrowser to show the abilities of DCOP.

KateBrowser is a little program that popup a top-only window with a button. When you click on the button, a popup menu shows every C function in the currently opened C/C++ source file in Kate. When you select a function in this menu, the cursor goes to its beginning.

I made that because I wanted this function in Kate !

I had only one problem: it seems that the Kate DCOP interface is not well designed, or not terminated. The method to move the cursor does not update the screen, so I had to hide then show the window to force an update.

I made another example that change the background picture regularly. But this is useless, as you can already do that with the KDE control center !

DCOP is very powerful. KDE applications need just offer more DCOP interfaces, and these interfaces should have a better designed. The Konqueror one or the KDesktop one seem to be well designed for example.


By Benoît at Sat, 2003/07/19 - 5:00am

> DCOP is very powerful. KDE applications need just offer more DCOP interfaces, and these interfaces should have a better designed. The Konqueror one or the KDesktop one seem to be well designed for example.

Agreed. We haven't seen the full power of DCOP in use yet...

I hope you filed a bug for kate btw :)


By anon at Sun, 2003/07/20 - 5:00am