In this week's KDE-CVS-Digest: The LDAP kio-slave is improved with TSL and SSL for secure connections and SASL for authentication. KDEPIM has a new certificate manager. Work proceeds apace on the khtml XML parser and xpath libraries. Plus a large number of bug fixes in Kopete.
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For a power-user xterm is now faster and easier to access in KDE. ;=)
I wouldn't recommed xterm over konsole to a power user, though...
In fact I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
Then put your money where your mouth is! Put Konsole back on Kicker. =P
> I agree that we Unix power users need the konsole badly. We are commandline
wizards, ya know??? We can't be without!
If you know how to use something as advanced as konsole, you should be able to figure out how to add it to the kicker.
Yeah f*ck them. The KPanel itself is also too cluttered, why not remove it from there too. By the way, what about moving it to kde-extragear? That is if it must be part of kde itself...
(yeah I'm beeing sarcastic)
What is KPanel? Or did you mean kicker?
No I mean KPanel, the thing that appears when you click the K (start) button.
I think that's its name.
KMenu
" I'm desperate for it.... KDE should not only always satisfy the newbie wishlists, it should also listen to us, who are at the center of the Unix world."
KDE's defaults should be optimized for intermediate users, NOT newbies, and NOT power users.
I don't see many intermediate users using konsole, so I think this is a great decision.
"KDE's defaults should be optimized for intermediate users, NOT newbies, and NOT power users."
However you must always consider them all. In this case I don't think the benifits for the intermidiate user justify the decision.
"I don't see many intermediate users using konsole, so I think this is a great decision."
My little sister uses it because of an ark bug.
Anyway I think we should keep it because
- it's not a major anoyance for newbies/intermidiate users
- it's a very important app for the tech user
- there are *many* tech users who will miss it
- I'm pretty sure much more people will be annoyed by it's removal than happy because it isn't there.
J.A.
And how is prefsmenu not optimised for your intermediate users? prefsmenu is perfect for them in fact.
And anyway where do you see these non-existent intermediate users? I watch KDE users all the time at the University. None of them are power users and almost all of them want Konsole because they want Unix. Otherwise they would be using the Windows machines.
So if you're going to talk about so-called intermediate users, please back up your statements...
Ready? Open a konsole window... (where is it? what is it?) ;-)
dcop kicker Panel addServiceButton konsole
The more I know about dcop, the more I am frustated the I really don't know a lot... ;) I'm impressed.
> The more I know about dcop, the more I am frustated the I really don't know a lot... ;) I'm impressed.
Wow! I'll mark it on the calendar... finally impressed someone, must send card... there. ;-)
DCOP is not so mysterious. Try this - Alt-F2 (brings up run dialog) enter "kdcop" (no quotes) and now you can explore to your heart's content. To perfect it for scripting use a console. If a listed app ends in a number it's not set to unique and can have multiple instances. you can find it on the command line like so.
dcop | grep quanta
[returns all instances of Quanta]
Now to see what is available
dcop `dcop | grep quanta`
Note the backticks. That means "execute and interpret this". To see what features we have added specifically for user scripting look at
dcop `dcop | grep quanta` WindowManagerIf
Note "QString currentURL()" for instance tells you the current file...
dcop `dcop | grep quanta` WindowManagerIf currentURL
[returns]
file:/home/httpd/htdocs/sites/kittyhooch/public_html/customer.php
You can also read and set things from kdcop. koffice is particularly interesting, but be careful. You can really trash some settings and do other less than desirable things if you aren't paying attention. ;-)
No one got the joke??????????? :))) That's a bad sign :))
I didn't see a link to the usability patch. So prefmenu is replaced by KControl? Why?
prefmenu is more usable. It is fast, convenient and you can easily access what you need. KControl is slow and bloated. You have to run it and then click around to find what you want. It's much less usable than being able to browse prefmenu.
What was the explanation for replacing prefmenu with KControl?
I think that the reasoning is that most people won't be able to find what they need through pref menu.
Kcontrol has a search feature, which is very important.
If you feel more comfortable using pref-menu, by all means, put it back into your panel :)
(I for one like the pref menu applet in the kmenu)
All the patch did was remove the applications from the default kicker. Konsole, khelpcenter and the prefmenu are still available. Right click on the kicker, add, and find what you like. Khelpcenter was put back.
This is the default kicker. What would be the best things to have there that would be the most useful for the most users? In limited screen space? There are many things it would be neat to have on the kicker, but there isn't room.
I have three users in my house. One wants simple, email, web and word processing. Never opens a konsole. Never opens help either, asks me :). Doesn't configure, again asks me (how do I get rid of that jumping thing!).
Another is intermediate. Gaim, browser, xmms, etc. Rarely a konsole, only when phones me at work, 'dad, * isn't working'. I get her to open konsole, and sort it out over the phone. Or when doing something like 'emerge kazaa'.
Then there is me. I have konsole open with about 5 tabs, konqueror and kmail, plus kate, quanta, kdevelop, mplayer, etc. I set things up the way I want quickly. I suspect most readers here are similar to me.
Now, why should what I want be the default? I can change things easily, I know how.
What does bother me with usability changes are when features and ways of working are changed. For example, kmail used to have a shortcut to select all messages, 'k' if I remember correctly. It doesn't anymore, I suppose to keep things simple. I used it all the time, and miss it. Now it's a two keystroke thing. I can live with it, but when things are taken away in the name of usability, it irks. This doesn't happen too often in KDE. As Aaron said in his comment on the list,
"i'm a pretty vocal and effective advocate against the "hide it all under the carpet!" usability approach. i'm also against unecessary complexity and wasteful impositions made upon our users."
So far so good. Let them do their work, see how it ends up. Aaron seems to have an idea where he wants to go. Seeing incremental changes clouds the issue. Maybe in the end it'll work better than it does now.
Derek
good post.. I agree with pretty much everything you said.
> There are many things it would be neat to have on the kicker, but there isn't room.
This is very inaccurate. The default kicker is smart enough to remove some of the default apps when the screen space is too small.
Someone says KDE should be optimised for "intermediate" users. While this is just a meaningless mantra... why not optimise KDE for "intermediate" resolutions as well then? (keeping in mind that Kicker can drop default icons when needed)
If you want to remove stuff, why not remove the filemanager? You already have a link to your $HOME on the desktop anyway. Or indeed, remove the help.
Removing useful stuff is bad though.
> Now, why should what I want be the default? I can change things easily, I know how.
I watch a lot of people using KDE. What annoys me is how *they* don't know how to change things... Removing prefmenu does not help this and nor does removing Konsole (since all of them, University students, are using the Unix machines precisely for it -- otherwise they would be using the Windows machine).
Sorry to sound harsh, but this is completely stupid. And yes, I know I can easily add back the icon to the pannel. The fact is I shouldn't have to.
First, in kde 3.2 you start making UNIX incoherent in the GUI by changing the word directory to folder.
Then, you remove THE MOST USEFUL TOOL OF THEM ALL from the kicker. Why don't you just start building a new shell specifically for windows? If I wanted to work in the MS windows way I would use windows. As it is, I am more efficient working on a UNIX system, and making the UNIX GUI hide all the UNIX functionality seems to completely go against what you should be trying to do.
"KDE is a powerful Open Source graphical desktop environment for Linux and Unix workstations. It combines ease of use, contemporary functionality, and outstanding graphical design with the technological superiority of the Unix operating system"
Why do you care that the underlying system is UNIX anymore? Perhaps you should remove this statement from the top of kde.org because you are now going to the stage of hiding this superiority from the user.
This is not flamebait - I am just horrified to see what was such a fantastic desktop going down hill quickly.
Only a "Power User" uses the command line? I don't think so. If you don't like the CLI then why aren't you just sticking to windows? Surely anyone who choses Linux over windows does so at least partly because they are more efficient with the command line than their mouse?
> If you don't like the CLI then why aren't you just sticking to windows?
Don't know. I'll ask my mother, my brother and the 630 KDE users at my school who don't even know what Konsole is. My brother isn't home right now, but my mom says that no one can even think of using Windows after they know KPat...
KDE is simply superior. And it also costs way less than Windows, one of the reasons why my school switched to it.
> Surely anyone who choses Linux over windows does so at least partly because
> they are more efficient with the command line than their mouse?
Not really. I can show you a lot of KDE users who don't know what bash is nor understand what issuing "rm -rf ~/*" at a Konsole will do.
Note: The reasons for changing the term "directory" into "folder" included the fact that everyone was tired of having that discussion popping up again and again and that KDE wasn't consistent with itself by calling things which were graphically represented by a folder a "directory". If anyone can provide a "directory" icon, maybe it can be reverted...
Hi Henrique,
Thanks for your comments.
I understand what you say; and I was being overly argumentative in my first post!
However, I feel that KDE started to create a desktop for UNIX users. Now it is trying to take over the desktop space, ie including windows, and I feel all this is achieving is another desktop for windows users, and it will leave the unix crowd migrating to other desktops.
"The reasons for changing the term "directory" into "folder" included the fact that everyone was tired of having that discussion popping up again and again"
Well, here it is popping up again!
Your point about directories as an icon is a good one and one I had not considered. But then again we use analogies all the time in computing, eg desktop etc etc and I think it is valid saying that a directory is analogous to a folder, and thus takes a folder icon. I feel that is better than breaking consistency with the underlying system. And how often in real life do you have a folder within a folder within a folder within a folder anyway?
I would say another design problem that appeared in 3.2 is the file permission dialogue. You have to go to the advanced tab to get a sensible looking dialogue for file permissions! The normal one requires me to actually read the words. The advanced one presents things in the normal rwx format.
Cheers,
Paul
> The advanced one presents things in the normal rwx format.
Because maybe the rwx format is unnecessarily complicated; it goes towards environments where such representations DO have reasonable value (i.e, CLIs). In a GUI environment we can afford to break away from that. It'll might annoy people who learned UNIX before they learned KDE, but the rest of us, it's just easier.
Hi,
"Because maybe the rwx format is unnecessarily complicated; it goes towards environments where such representations DO have reasonable value (i.e, CLIs). In a GUI environment we can afford to break away from that. It'll might annoy people who learned UNIX before they learned KDE, but the rest of us, it's just easier."
I honestly believe, no matter how long I have been a UNIX user (ie pre KDE or not), that a grid of gro against rwx could not be easier to follow. I think if you had trouble following this in te grid format then you probably don't know enough about the system to be even altering file permissions anyway.
And I know I am going to get flamed for this, but I think KDE should reconsider "Easy to learn, hard to use, hard to learn, easy to use". Spend 2mins understanding the grid style dialoge an it pays you back by being much faster to use once you have learnt it than the wordy thing with the droip downs.
Thanks,
Paul
> should reconsider "Easy to learn, hard to use, hard to learn, easy to use".
> Spend 2mins understanding the grid style dialoge an it pays you back by being
> much faster to use once you have learnt it than the wordy thing with the drop downs.
Couldn't agree more. Every user feels stupid somewhere in the process of learning. It's better to get it over with in a few minutes - or even hours - in the beginning, than to never get smarter.
Goran J
> if you had trouble following this in te grid format then you probably don't know enough about the system to be even altering file permissions anyway.
Erm, setting permissions is something that Mac and Windows folks have been doing for years... without unintuitive grids.
please tell me how the grid is unintuative.
If you are saying that the average person cannot use the grid, then I would say the average user also is unable to read a bus timetable. And I'm sure this is not the case.
Paul
Hi Paul!
KDE is going nowhere near being a Windows clone. It is a DE on its own, not a copy of something else. And will stay that way.
Please note that I was against the change of "directory" into "folder", but most people were favorable and it happened (I even helped in the change). Your point about desktop is not really the same thing, as what we call "desktop" is represented by a "desktop" icon, while what we used to call "directory" was represented by a folder icon. You can restart the discussion if you want, but I guess you won't find anyone interested in debating it for the n-th time...
I won't comment on the file permission dialog, as I also don't like it very much. But there were good reasons for changing it.
> And how often in real life do you have a folder within a folder within a folder within a folder anyway?
Not much, but it would be much harder to make viable directory icons (hmm.. shaped like a phone book or something?), than just "s/directory/folder". Either way, consistancy *within* kde is the most important thing.
> Not really. I can show you a lot of KDE users who don't know what bash is nor understand what issuing "rm -rf ~/*" at a Konsole will do.
And a good thing because it's "rm -Rf ~/*" since *nix is case sensitive. Oops... were you trying to avert disaster for the curious? ;-)
Kids, don't try the above command at home! It will wipe your home directory clean!
> Note: The reasons for changing the term "directory" into "folder" included the fact that everyone was tired of having that discussion popping up again and again and that KDE wasn't consistent with itself by calling things which were graphically represented by a folder a "directory". If anyone can provide a "directory" icon, maybe it can be reverted...
A directory icon? that *is* funny. I pretty much looked at this and sighed. I have bigger fish to fry. Still, the concept that a synonym is too complex for the average user is sad. It seems to operate on the assumption that the people using the computer will have too much trouble with simple concepts to be able to do much anything but play video games anyway. My experience is that if someone doesn't conceptually understand a file system they are going to have a lot more trouble than this. The folder metaphor helps, but you don't nest folders six deep in your desk or softlink them to other folders so it's sort of a half assed metaphor... I'd rather see a couple paragraph visual "what's a file system?" tutorial.
For my part it is that much more confusing every time I tell a user "Look in your project directory... oops, I forgot... we don't have directories any more, just folders..." (oh this is fun) "What? What happened to my directories?"
I can only hope most of KDE does not get bogged down in such minutia. Our docs are changed, when asked I give the Homer Simpson blank stare and try to remember to say "folder" and hope the more experienced user is familiar with the concept of synonyms and knows I mean directory. ;-)
BTW does anybody think that "bug", "error", "exception", "crash" and "core dump" might be simpler as just bug?
"I got a bug dialog"
"There's a problem in the bug handling routine"
"The program threw a bug"
"When I click this button it bugs on me"
"did the program leave a bug dump?"
I hope I didn't give anybody any ideas. ;-)
> And a good thing because it's "rm -Rf ~/*" since *nix is case sensitive. Oops...
> were you trying to avert disaster for the curious? ;-)
On my system, "rm -Rf ~/*" does exactly the same as "rm -rf ~/*". From the manpage:
"
-r, -R, --recursive
remove the contents of directories recursively
"
And I don't think anybody here will be stupid enough to try that command... At least, most people here do know what "rm" does...
>I know I can easily add back the icon to the pannel. The fact is I shouldn't have to.
>First, in kde 3.2 you start making UNIX incoherent in the GUI by changing the word directory to folder.
You're so right. These decisions are just stupid and unnecessary.
> You're so right. These decisions are just stupid and unnecessary.
And you're quite wrong :)
Technical users know the difference between folders and directories. Less knowledgable users may become confused by such.
I honestly cannot believe what I'm reading...
// First, in kde 3.2 you start making UNIX incoherent in the GUI
// by changing the word directory to folder.
Pet Peeve? Yeah, It's one of mine too. Incoherent? WTF? I don't like referring to them as folders rather than directories but you can't honestly tell me that you are unable to understand what KDE is trying to tell you when it uses the word "folder" in place of "directory"?
// Then, you remove THE MOST USEFUL TOOL OF THEM ALL from the kicker.
// Why don't you just start building a new shell specifically for
// windows? If I wanted to work in the MS windows way I would use
// windows. As it is, I am more efficient working on a UNIX system,
// and making the UNIX GUI hide all the UNIX functionality seems to
// completely go against what you should be trying to do.
Perhaps you've missed something, but what KDE aims to be is the most efficient Desktop Environment that _anybody_ will use! For everybody that works more efficient with the console there is a person that works better without even knowing it existed, or works better without the kicker being cluttered with programs they never use.
// Why do you care that the underlying system is UNIX anymore? Perhaps
// you should remove this statement from the top of kde.org because
// you are now going to the stage of hiding this superiority from the user.
How do they "not care" that the underlying system is UNIX? Do they deny that DCOP or KPart technology is not part of the underlying system JUST because it's not accessible by the average user? Just because you need to perform an extra step to get a nice program on your default launch bar you're suddenly pointing the finger and saying that KDE is denying its roots? It's absurd.
// This is not flamebait - I am just horrified to see what was such
// a fantastic desktop going down hill quickly.
I mean, really. Going downhill? Because of a removed icon from the default install. Get a hold of yourself man and take in some perspective on the situation.
// Only a "Power User" uses the command line? I don't think so. If you
// don't like the CLI then why aren't you just sticking to windows?
Hey, well if you like the command line so much, why don't you use twin (http://linuz.sns.it/~max/twin/) and stick to mutt and vi? See, it's ridiculous.
// Surely anyone who chooses Linux over windows does so at least partly
// because they are more efficient with the command line than their mouse?
Of course. Definitely not for the stability, performance and open standards etc...
I realize some of my comments may be classed as inflammatory but it really gets to me when people make such a huge deal out of such a small matter. So in closing, get over it and:
ALT + F2; dcop kicker Panel addServiceButton konsole
Cheers,
Chris.
(with regard to Chris Smith's comments)
A console _is_ the most versatile and widely useful/often needed tool for
users who are familiar with the underlying system; as these users are the
ones who are most likely to be using a default KDE installation (not
one adapted for the users of a particular OS distro) it is reasonable and
only sensible to provide console in the toolbar rather than forcing these
users to add it each time they install a KDE.
"Hey, well if you like the command line so much, why don't you use twin ..."
Alright; exaggeration of view here is presumably aimed at the "why not use `windows' idea which is also a trifle polemical. But what Paul Mitcheson said gave no grounds for inferring his preference for non-graphical tools all round. It pointed out that the removal of the one icon that give immediate access to pretty much anything one wants to launch, change, etc. is a pretty stupid way to save space on a toolbar littered with trivial one-off programs (a mere "office suite", help centre, etc) that can also easily be found in normal menus, and that have none of the universality of a console.
About pettiness, I quite agree it can be annoying when tiny issues become inflated.
However, the downward turn of KDE in several respects recently
(names, permissions, basic window options hiding behind an "advanced" tab)
gives cause for worry to the many computer-literate kde users, as a precursor
to more radically dumbing-down -- hence easier to use first time, more arkward on the tenth time -- depredations to KDE.
It is reasonable that the typical users of default KDE should want to put in a counter-request to discourage such change.
Hi Nathaniel,
My main point is KDE is supposed to be what you want it to be. As you use it it fits around you like a glove so that everything that you do becomes easier. If you need constant access to the console, put the konsole button on kicker. If you need fast access to virtual desktops, bind an action or a key combo.
The point being is that default KDE shouldn't be an issue to ANY user, as one of the best points of KDE is it can do what you need it to be.
Cheers,
Chris.
Yes; agreed -- it is very configurable, and it is certainly not hard to change things like the konsole.
Would you not agree, though, with the point that almost anyone using plain KDE is one of : using a non-popular distro; compiling from sources; downloading 3rd party pkg/rpm etc. and therefore is a type very likely to value consoles more than kword, help centre etc.?
And that the few others using a non-adapted KDE are hardly likely to be scared by its presence?
KDE can certainly be adapted very easily, but to minmise average user time taken in setting it up, the raw, default KDE might more reasonably cater for someone of a more konsoley than kwordy type. A distributor who modifies KDE can make changes just once, then all the users in an office environment can benefit -- in this case, it is not bad that the distributor once has to replace a konsole with a spreadsheet!
I know this sounds awfully petty, and so this _shall_ be my last interference in the konsole debate... the reason for its mention is both that
i) the average user time for configuration, over thousands of users, seems worth considering in many aspects of the default KDE
ii) we worry that there may be many contented users who love the classic KDE and never bother to say so. It is common in life that only the (possibly small) population who don't like something get heard -- then if the others don't make clear their tastes too, government, KDEhq, or whatever, just never realises that something was done against the general will. So we seek to show the presence of this, perhaps large, user base.
All the best,
Nathaniel
"Of course. Definitely not for the stability, performance and open standards etc... "
I think if we are honest, XP is a pretty stable system. Let's not pretend this is such an issue. If MS's best offering was win9x then your point is valid, but not any more. I also think its performance is pretty similar (in workstation use. Can't comment on server use as I have never admined a windows server) to linux.
And I don't think the average user, who doesn't know how to use konsole, cares about open standards.
So, I would still proclaim that people who use KDE/GNU Linux do so because they prefer the UNIX way of working.
Paul
To all KDE users who don't know what a konsole is i say this:
Konsole is the beginning.....the middle.....the end.
Konsole is what gives solutions when everything else fails.
Konsole is what stays standing when everything else falls.
Konsole is what can touch the heart of your system in an unbalanced state of affection.
Why would you want to remove that from your visual field. If anything, everything else has to be removed previously.
This is a voice from the user base that Nathaniel Taylor was referring to earlier. I believe there are many others out there who agree that DE's where made to help the user operate his/her operating system. Even for the unexperienced, exposing them to the most powerful tools of a system is not such a bad thing. One day they might be curious enough to find out what happens if they click on this strange terminal looking icon. The fact that it is there in their face might mean that it is something worth knowing about. In any other case it will be dead and burried before it is even born.
here, here.
What you are talking about is what you can find on Ctrl+Alt+F1, not in Konsole.
I am not sure if you know what you are talking about, since CTRL+ALT+F1 takes you to the real console of your system, while Konsole gives you the same functionality within the graphical x-windows environment. A difference is that you can have many Konsole's in front of you together with other KDE and non-KDE applications on the side as well, but you can only get one real console once you press CTRL+ALT+F1.
I have no idea if you're the same anon, but following the description of "Konsole is the beginning.....the middle.....the end" and "Konsole is what can touch the heart of your system in an unbalanced state of affection" Konsole, in contrary to the real console, is hardly going to help you. When you start your system you are rather accessing the real console since Konsole is only usable when KDE and the necessary underlying system (X) is already running. And if your system is in an unbalanced state that will rather affect Konsole way more than it will ever affect the console. Has been a nice piece of prose though. ;)
I think this argument is being diverted in the wrong direction. I totally agree with you that the real console is much more robust than Konsole which requires X + KDE to run before it becomes usable. What i said was meant to be a suggestion to KDE developers and users that Konsole should not be removed from the panel menu because it may serve an important role in case of an emergency, or for a thousand other reasons which i cannot begin to enumerate. The real console obviously can act as a replacement of that but in many cases Konsole can do the job equally well without having to jump out of the graphical environment. Also, some KDE users don't even know what Konsole is, let alone the real console, so it seems easier to have an icon on the panel which executes Konsole rather than trying to explain to them the idea of real consoles that are accessed by CTRL+ALT+F1.
Therefore my point is that, at least Konsole should be left where it is, and if that doesn't help when your system becomes 'unstable' then i think it is time you learned that there is much more than KDE behind that dekstop of yours.
I'd rather prefer MiniCLI's ability to execute commands in terminal window/Konsole being promoted more. I myself don't start Konsole on it own anymore for quite some time but often as part of a specific task (through MiniCLI or as part of Konqueror, Kate etc.) and I would think it makes more sense this way for most people.
hrm. they quoted my bit of humour code from an email, but didn't format it for usage in HML so the joke is completely lost. the dynamic_casts were checking for objects of type UsabilityExpert and Developer... funny that the punchline got lost, because it seems the same is happening with the kicker changes in the discussions on this forum.
change sucks. it's uncomfortable. it's.. well.. CHANGE. and most of us, being regular people, don't like that. it's almost irrelevant if the change is good or not, it rarely feels good. at first.
we've made enough changes to KDE over the last couple years in an attempt to streamline it that i've started to notice something of a pattern. if i ignore the bitching and listen to the reasoning, then good things happen. if there isno logic to the noise (24 karat whine), then i ignore it and when a release happens it's usually greeted with open arms by our users.
as for konsole itself... we're not hiding our heritage, we're not turning our back on UNIX. personally, i have a virtual desktop dedicated to the CLI. on my dual head system i have two konsoles, on my regular single monitor system just one. each konsole has between 10 and 20 active sessions each. (ahh... tabbed konsole!) so, i'm something of a fan of konsole. so obviously i didn't thing removing it was a good idea because i am trying to make KDE perfect for me, since my profile falls within the minority of KDE users. we need to make KDE perfect for most people, and easy to change to perfection for everyone else. as for me, i know how to put Konsole on the panel pretty easily (tip: drag and drop from the K Menu!).
moreover, konsole is still in kdebase. konsole is still in the kmenu. it's not going anywhere. the overwhelming majority of average computer users do not and will not have an impending need for konsole such that it deserves an entry by default on the panel. it's still easily accessable and still a valued part of KDE (esp to me =). the panel is not a billboard to advertise our operating system philosophies ("UNIX rocks because the CLI is awesome!").
in any case, these changes aren't random, nor are we trying to hide the cool features of KDE. these changes were vetted by KDE developers, including those not involved in usability; there are long discussions that preface these sorts of changes (usually covering things most people wouldn't think of immediately (myself included)).
it's true that KDE is becoming easier to use, and we're doing it without cutting features and without making things opaque to configure and manage. there is a state of oversimplicity that renders a system less useful; there is a state of complexity that does much the same. KDE has traditionally leaned towards the latter, and now we're in the process of optimizing it. the goal is to end up somewhere in the middle.
"This desktop is too hard, I can't use it without getting frustrated.
This desktop is too featureless, I can't get my work done with it.
This desktop is juuuuuuust right." - Goldilocks, 21st century
The problem is that you are making changes that make KDE less usable by default.
1) prefmenu is better than KControl. Now it's gone.
2) 90% of people who install KDE from source want Konsole. Removing it from Kicker makes Kicker less usable by default. The clueless masses will install Lindows anyway.
3) $HOME does not need to be on Kicker in the default settings. $HOME is already on KDesktop.
4) If you want to spend your time doing real usability work that will help KDE instead of inconveniencing users... why not clean up the mess that is KHelpCenter? You really think people want to browse a gigantic hierarchy of documentation?
I hope you can listen to the argument.
>2) 90% of people who install KDE from source want Konsole. Removing it from Kicker makes Kicker less usable by default. The clueless masses will install Lindows anyway.
Do you have any prof what so ever for that number? no? I didn't think so either... Just because you use the kicker icon to launch konsole doesn't mean everybody else do...
1) it isn't gone, it's just not there by default. yes, pref menu is better for you and i, but i'm not convinced it's better for most users. a single interface seems to work better than a menu for those who are only marginally familiar with kcontrol's layout. and that isn't a newbie thing; most people don't learn the kcontrol layout even after using KDE for >1 year. the menu works best when people either want to launch a single panel, or when they know what they want (meaning no browsing). this is also a reflection of the crapiness of our current nav system in kcontrol, which isn't going to last in its current form.
2) you miss the point, which i assume is because you aren't involved in the actual discussions on the mailing lists because i covered this in detail there. i'm not concerned about people who install from source, since they can throw konsole on there in two seconds, and they are the vast minority of people who use KDE. i'd like to see a KDE that can be used in a DEFAULT configuration in a "Tier 1" OS with as LITTLE modfication as necessary. why? two reasons.
first, if the OS vendor has to do less work to "fix up" KDE for shipping then KDE is cheaper for them and there is less chance they will break things. when OS vendors go mucking about they do some really stupid things, like how some OSes decided to put the tabbar in konsole at the top of the window showing a complete lack of understanding of usability when it comes to terminal apps.
making KDE less expensive for the vendor also means strengthening our relationships with the vendors and even openning the doors to new ones for KDE.
the other reason focusses on the user. when a person uses KDE on SUSE at work and then goes home to KDE on Mandrake, wouldn't it be great if their KDE was as identical as possible in both places? right now that won't happen because vendors feel the need to touch up a lot of things throughout KDE. by providing a better-by-default KDE we can provide a more consistent KDE experience for users between OSes. KDE as brand will be strengthened by this, and KDE as a project will end up benefiting.
to think that default settings do not end up affecting binary-install users is naive. right now we are much too optimized for advanced users, the sort who can (and sometimes even do ;) install KDE from source. we're neglecting the vast majority of our users. even if they do install from binaries, they are still our users. KDE needs to start taking responsibility for all our users. they are not users of just an OS, they are users of KDE on some OS.
3) Desktop icons are an abomination. they are often obscured by windows and encourage people to manage their windows (minimize, maximize, move around) which most people are not very good at. it is PAINFUL to watch a Windows user on my KDE machines because they end up futzing with windows in odd ways to gain access to the desktop, since that is what they have been trained (incorrectly) to do. this makes desktop access inneficient AND hurts using applications due to windows often being partially offscreen or minimized. de-emphasizing the desktop icons allows users to maximize windows or keep them where they are without moving them. the desktop access button is a great feature for desktop icon users, but shows there is a fundamental flaw in the model.
in contrast the panel is always available no matter how the windows are arranged, and access to your files is one of the most taken actions on the desktop. it therefore deserves to be on the panel, no questions asked.
4) "spend your time doing real usability work that will help KDE" ... huh. you really are an asshole, aren't you? i suppose KDE has just magically become more usable over the last couple years by itself... sorry, but that kind of rudeness is really hard for me to take silently. now, i have neither need nor desire for people to pat my back all the time, but boy does it get tiresome to have people be rude and ignorant to you on a rather consistent basis. (emphasis on ignorant, from which the rudeness usually springs.)
as for KHelpCenter, you're right, it needs help. in fact, we were discussing issues with KHC on the cvs commit list this past week. some developers thought it was fine just as is, i provided a (short) list of things that need to be addressed (the tree of all docs showing being one of them, lack of searchability being another). but i suppose i'm not doing any real usability work with these observations, right? unfortunately i only have so many hours in the day to commit to KDE, and between working on KControl, Kicker, KsCD, KJots, KNX and then a bunch of random "this needs to be fixed" stuff around KDE i'm pretty much tied up at the moment.
heh.. i'm even moving house this month, just because i have so much time. working full time and having a family leaves me with too much spare time, you see. ;-P
hey, i've got an idea: why don't you help with KHC? some real usability work will get done much faster that way! of course i'm going to guess that you posted anonymously to avoid such repercusive responsibility.
(grumpy? who, me? ;)