In this week's KDE CVS-Digest (all on one page): Kttsd adds support for Italian Festival voices.
Umbrello improves import from ArtisanSW, Visio, ArgoUML, Fujaba and NSUML.
KSpread has a new insert calendar plugin.
Konqueror loses its Cut/Copy/Paste buttons.
KDE begins move to Subversion and discusses future roadmap.
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>David Faure (faure) committed a change to kdebase/konqueror in HEAD
>February 15, 2005 at 08:13:25 PM
>
>GUI: remove Cut/Copy/Paste buttons from the toolbars, as discussed at length on
we've already discussed this. it will happen in the next release. there are a pile of security tests that George Staikos has to verify against before that icon can be removed. but it's days _are_ numbered =)
thanx for the info :D
Hey, whatever, I use them all of the time. Looks like I'll be editing the Konq bars on first start up like I have for years.
WTF?! Why don't you use keyboard shortcuts or the right click menu?
Or even better with drag&drop and split views...
Why don't you use the buttons? Same question, really....
I'll have to agree with Joe on this.. I used those when I was too lazy to use the keyboard. this is a change that I'm not overly happy to see happen. I can live without it but I would hardly consider it a highlight....
Yeah. Exactly. All the people running around calling this the "best change ever" are the ones ruining the show for KDE.
Talk about exaggeration.
You also have the main menu and the context menu. In case you are too lazy to use the keyboard.
Now for the inevitable question;
What about all the other apps with these buttons in their toolbars? Kate, Kolourpaint, ... a lot of them.
(Before anyone says c/p isn't important for file management and is for text editing: that isn't true. It's important for both.)
> (Before anyone says c/p isn't important for file management and is for text editing: that isn't true. It's important for both.)
Yes, it is true.
No, those buttons are not important.
Better write a "Did you know"-tip that says that a selection of text is instantly copied to the cipboard and that the middle-mouse button pastes the selected text.
KDE is Unix, not Windows!
Note, I said c/p is important, not the toolbar buttons for them.
Selecting text copies it to a different clipboard than those actions.
Fark. I can't believe the whiners won.
You're all helping to drag our beloved KDE down to the lowest common denominator with your pointless whining.
I have no idea how the GNOME marketing people managed to train all of you into "usability experts" in such a short time, but I take off my hat to them. GNOME are the master puppeteers of the Linux desktop market.
So, according to you, a web browser should have cut/copy/paste buttons?
Cut/copy/paste has been removed from FILE MANAGEMENT ie KFM.
This is why I switched to KDE. I couldn't stand no cut/copy/paste in Nautilus! Now KDE is just becoming GNOME. :-(
KDE has a "Configure Toolbar..." feature.
Great. Welcome to usability hell. You take the most useful feature of KFM out of sight of users and tell them KDE has a "Configure Toolbar..." feature.
GNOME has gconf, btw. Doesn't make it suck any less.
You can change toolbars with gconf? Please, stop trolling.
Who cares, that's besides the point. You can do pretty much anything with gconf. It still sucks. We are talking about usability here. Or are you just interested in random content-less arguing?
I object to KDE listening to whiners and propaganda and so-called usability experts. I don't think it is good for the project. What is the point of turning KDE into GNOME?
Where KDE was or could be great it is becoming merely ordinary, and worse, crippled usability-wise. If that's what you want go use GNOME.
most people never used these icons. there are numerous better ways of moving and copying files, like with the shortcuts, drag'n'drop (yep, you can keep the files over a folder, then the folder will open etc, you can drag'n'drop to other tab's, they'll open etc etc). the rmb opens a menu with a copy-to and move-to, by the way. and there are menu's with copy/paste in them. these buttons where overkill, and annoying. Reducing the amount of icons makes it (one day) possible to remove 1 toolbar, and integrate the locationbar in the one toolbar left (a la firefox).
the new 'view' icons, for local browsing, is another improvement that saves a few icons on local browsing.
Of course, some people won't like this change, but most do.
The solution will be that toolbar configuration is stored on each Konqueror Profile so that you can have an old profile with all the buttons and one for "experimented" users who don't need this buttons.
Moreover the toolbars configuration dialog sucks a lot. For exemple, remove from the main toolbar of Konqueror then try to had it again : impossible. There is too much toolbars configurable on this dialog and in reality only 5 can be shown. That's because a toolbar is composed of other toolbars. That's not easy to understand for users and eaven for me, user since KDE 1.0
But I am in the team who don't need this copy/paste/cut buttons :)
"most useful feature"? Huh?
It's not like copy and paste support was removed from KFM. You can still use the keyboard shortcuts, or the context menu, or the regular menu. I have *never* used the toolbar buttons.
> You take the most useful feature of KFM out of sight of users
Oh please. You really think the copy & paste toolbar buttons are the most useful feature of KFM? If you really think that, then you certainly don't bear any resemblance to normal users.
If you had said that it was an *often used* feature, then people could have a productive debate about the pros and cons. But when you instantly revert to such blatant exaggeration, and accuse people of being whiners and spreading propoganda, it becomes impossible to do anything but write you off as somebody who is concerned about what he wants rather than what's good for normal users.
Yes, KDE has a "configure toolbar" feature, however the point is that it's much easier to remove stuff you don't want (for streamlining or optimizing) than it is to add.
And the flakiness of the configure toolbar feature isn't helping either.
> Cut/copy/paste has been removed from FILE MANAGEMENT ie KFM.
They were also in konqueror web-browser profile. You haven't use konqueror in a while, have you?
I am posting this from konqueror right now. I have not updated CVS yet, only reading log. Please stop following up with useless one-liners.
OK.
The redundant buttons have been removed, the features are still there. You should thank the KDE developers for forcing you to become more efficient at using your computer by learning the keyboard shortcuts. Or if you still insist on being inefficient, the right mouse button menu is there, and it's closer to your mouse pointer than the old toolbar buttons. If you really can't stand being that efficient, you can still use the edit menu with your mouse.
The rest of the world will enjoy their new, less cluttered, more relevant displays. Baby steps to a better KDE.
> Cut/copy/paste has been removed from FILE MANAGEMENT ie KFM
Read this: Cut/Copy/Paste have *not* been removed from the file management part. The *buttons* have been removed from the *toolbar*.
You can still use the main menu, the keyboard shurtcuts or the context menu to cut/copy/paste a file.
Please don't spread FUD. Thank you!
WRONG!! This is just the wrong way to go. Remove features because some "usability" experts believe it confuses users? Are we going the Gn*me way now? Guess what, I always enable the extra toolbar in Konqueror because I CAN'T HAVE ENOUGH ICONS in the toolbar.
OMG, NO FEATURES WERE REMOVED! And it is not about confusion, it's about clutter and having a desktop you want to use. If you want to have every freaking icon there, go ahead, that's why you can edit your toolbars. But the rest of the world wants only the most often used icons in the toolbar. Do not try to impose your odd preferences as the defaults.
Also, if GNOME does something better, copying it is not a bad thing. GNOME has far better usability then KDE, it's interface is cleaner and more consistent, it's documentation is better and this is all they focus on. Unfortunately, they have removed too many useful things in the process, they have made mistakes, but usability has improved. KDE's worst aspect is usability. KDE needs to compete, but in its own way, it is not making the same mistakes.
I'm willing to go out on a limb and say there are users who don't know about keyboard shortcuts or right clicking (new users). For them, those features might as well have been removed. It's strange to me that whenever someone says he'd rather still have those buttons, someone tells him to customize his toolbar. Umm.. someone who relies on those buttons is exactly the kind of person to have no idea how to do that.
Now, in the name of consistency, are they going to disappear from other apps too? I just don't understand what is so bad about having them there. I've never used them, but they shout out to a new user that the functionality is there. I don't see how their presence could confuse anyone. Suddenly the purpose of the Back Button is no longer obvious because there is a Cut Button too?
The kinds of users who don't know about keyboard shortcuts or right clicking are *also* not the kind of users who would click on a picture of scissors just to see what it would do. They are certainly not the kind of users who need to use copy and paste for file management (and especially not "cut"!), when dragging icons is much simpler and easier to understand.
These are the kind of users who are scared that everything they do might break their computer and don't do anything unless somebody has already showed them that it's OK. These are the kind of users who are extremely slow because they navigate through the application menu bar every time they want to, for example, save. And I might point out that the items are *still* in their standard locations in edit menu, where they are easy to find even for new users because: 1. they are labeled, and 2. they have been there in every program, KDE and otherwise, since forever. Does Mac OS X Finder have cut/copy/paste toolbar buttons? No! Does Windows Explorer have cut/copy/paste toolbar buttons by default? No (not in XP)!
The presence of far too many toolbar buttons *does* confuse newbies. My grandmother would probably faint if I tried to make her learn KDE 3.2's default Konqueror toolbars. In addition, the extra icons add visual clutter and complexity that Konqueror already has too much of. Removing these icons may not have a huge impact *by itself*, but it is a necessary part of the process of simpifying KDE, which is much more important for new users than providing them a "quick" access button on the toolbar for copy/paste (which is redundant anyway because it's slower than the right-click menu and *much* slower than keyboard shortcuts).
> I'm willing to go out on a limb and say there are users who don't know about keyboard shortcuts or right clicking (new users).
You do know that we also have a main menu?
You are right GNOME have removed too much. But just the same I think it was the right way for them to go. Many of the features that was removed from old Gnome 1.x didn't conform to the new HIG, so in order to get a consistent GUI they had to go.As time goes by things will get added back in a more polished state.
KDE would probably benefit from a similar cleanup. Not only are there many inconsistencies within KDE that needs to be fixed. The whole environment has changed since the inception of the KDE project. Back then KDE was the only vialble Unix GUI around. Now we also need to be able to interoperate with other environments like Gnome, XFCe and perhaps even MacOS-X and windows.
For a long time GUIs for Unix was an issue for highly experienced computer users such as developers and engineers. Now, Linux is on the verge of moving in on everybodys desktop and most of us think that this is a good thing. But for that to succeed focus need to shift from functionality to usability and interoperability. If we don't succed in that chances are that some other DE will be the one of choise to most people and KDE will be irrellevant.
Those buttons are essential for newbies. Now they are being asked to right-click or use keyboard shortcuts, neither of which is very obvious to somebody new to computers.
I have first hand experience training people 65 and plus on Linux and know that this is a step backwards.
This seems to be out of that Doctorow novel where some supposed usability experts infiltrate projects till they drive them to the ground.
Or, you know, you could click on the edit menu, which is probably more intuitive than click on taskbar buttons, anyway.
Those buttons are completely useless to newbies. They will never click them unless they are experienced computer users who know what they mean already (then they're not newbies, are they?) or you tell them to. Even if they do happen to click the copy button by themselves, when nothing immedately happens they will probably ignore it.
If you try to teach them "file management your way", and you like to use those buttons (which is apparently the case, though God only knows why), then of course you will teach them to use the buttons. That doesn't mean that the buttons are necessary for newbies to learn Linux. If for some reason their life depends on using copy and paste for file management (instead of the much easier to understand drag-and-drop), then they can use the edit menu, just like they would have to on OS X and Windows XP, which are the same way. Or you can teach them the right-click menu (which is more useful in general), or the keyboard shorctuts (which is by far the fastest way to do it).
Nonsense.
Cut and paste is a simple, basic idea that is understandable. You cut something from here, paste it there.
Have you seen a newbie actually drag and drop something? That is painful. I consider it the most un-usable interface idea that has ever been dreamed up in a laboratory. Anyone I've seen doing it was shown the much easier, more accurate and less frustrating cut and paste method. My wrist gets sore whenever I do any drag and drop operations
Drag and drop assumes a visible target. So you have to show the person how to open both source and target before considering doing any real work. How is that supposed to be simple?
Here is another instance where what is disguised as usability is in fact imposing a way of working on people.
I'm not certain whether this change applies to the file manager profile. I hope not.
Derek
Yes, it does apply to the FM. That's what boggles most.
"Have you seen a newbie actually drag and drop something? That is painful."
I disagree, drag and drop seems perfectly natural to me. I've certainly seen beginners use drag and drop with NeXT OpenStep or Apple Cocoa with no problems. I find it harder to use in KDE because you can't drag an icon off a window without bringing the window into focus, which in turn means the window you're trying to drag it onto is no longer in focus. In Apple Cocoa you can drag an icon off a window and the target window is still at the front - that's certainly one thing that makes all the difference. UI's which are based on ubiquitous drag and drop can be much less modal, which is a good thing.
The metaphor 'cut', 'copy' and 'paste' makes no sense in the context of files. That metaphor is to do with designing pages layouts with glue pots and scraps of paper on a pasteboard. Whereas 'picking up' a file via drag and drop to move it somewhere seems more like the real world.
You even didn't answer the question you quoted.
I've seen a lot of office users in warehouses (those who manage the warehouse, enter orders etc.).
There are people who know to make a screen shot and then paste it into ... Excel. Yes, Excel.
I've hardly ever seen one of those use drag'n'drop for files. Only cut/copy/paste and almost in all cases using icons in the toolbar.
Many times - when I do some work there and I use the keyboard short cuts, I have been asked what buttons I had pressed. Although the short cuts are written nearby the menu entries of the edit menu. Obviously this is not used very much.
Clicking one of those Icons is the most simple way. Keeping the mouse button pressed while moving the mouse is a handling nightmare and IMHO another reason for serious long term injuries.
Richard Dale said:
"I've certainly seen beginners use drag and drop with NeXT OpenStep or Apple Cocoa with no problems."
Harald Henkel said:
"You even didn't answer the question you quoted."
Umm, I thought I did..
Are you talking about brain dead drag and drop support as on Windows, or drag and drop which works as in OpenStep or Mac OS X?
And of course using properly implemented drag and drop doesn't involve injuries.
If you're right, I assume clicking on some text and dragging the mouse down to select a paragraph or whatever, will also cause major injuries to our users.
I must admit, that I never worked with OpenStep or any Mac OS.
I must also admit, that you DID answer the question. Have those beginners you saw been trained to use d'n'd on OpenStep or Cocoa ? Or did they figure that out on theirselves ?
What's really that different between d'n'd on Windows and OpenStep or MacOSX ?
The problem with drag'n'drop is not so much a semantic one, but really a physical one, and that is basically not dependent of the way it is implemented. d'n'd consists of moving the mouse while being required to keep the mouse button pressed. Otherwise it wouldn't be d'n'd but some kind of cut'n'paste.
You don't realize after a couple of years, but like RSI the long term effect of this kind of movement is probably bigger than most people can imagine. Don't forget: It's only about 20 years that PC mice became common. And there already are a lot of people with real problems caused by mouse usage.
What does properly implemented d'n'd do different than a bad implemented one, so that it can prevent those long term injuries, which I think it causes?
"Have those beginners you saw been trained to use d'n'd on OpenStep or Cocoa ? Or did they figure that out on theirselves ?"
I don't think you need to be trained to use drag and drop. I'm afraid I haven't really thought about how hard people find it to learn, just that I can never remember anyone having a problem.
"It's only about 20 years that PC mice became common."
I've been using a mouse pretty much daily since 1984, and I've never had a mouse related problem. I have had back trouble that actually feels like 'sunburn' on the top of my hands from bad keyboards or bad seating arrangements though. The worst keyboard I've ever used was the original NeXT one - I used it for two weeks, and was off work for a month recovering. There was no 'spring' at the end of the key travel, and every character you hit was jarring. I've also found it's very important to sit directly in front of the screen, and make sure you don't have to twist to see it.
"What does properly implemented d'n'd do different than a bad implemented one,"
I think the problem with drag and drop on Windows, last time I used it a couple of years ago, was that it wasn't very widely implemented, so you never knew if something would work or not. KDE has pretty good drag and drop, although I seem to use it less than I do on Mac OS X - maybe that's just habit. But the fact you can't drag something off a window without bringing it to the front is pretty annoying to me.
"I don't think you need to be trained to use drag and drop. I'm afraid I haven't really thought about how hard people find it to learn, just that I can never remember anyone having a problem."
Depends on what you mean by trained. I wouldn't say it's hard to learn. But it's not that intutive to Newbe computer users that they find just out easily.
I also don't say, that RSI or similar mouse related injuries do hit every every-day-mouse-user.
Some people smoke all their life and don't get any kind of cancer...
Yet, these injuries DO exist, and I think d'n'd can make it even worse compared to just clicking and moving the mouse. But RSI is not only a mouse related injury...
Really, I would find it strange, if I could drag something off a window, which is not in the front. I mean, to drag something means, to click it first, and a click into a window should bring it to front. Breaking this for d'n'd would seem another usability issue to me. But maybe it's only habit... or ignorance (on my side).
There might still be some Windows programs out there, which do not support d'n'd at all. But this I think doesn't have much to do with the basic problems of this method.
> I mean, to drag something means, to click it first, and a click into a
> window should bring it to front. Breaking this for d'n'd would seem another
> usability issue to me. But maybe it's only habit... or ignorance (on my side).
ahem. you don't click (mouse-down % up) to initiate a dnd action - you press-hold the button (mouse-down) and drag...
(just figured out that I cannot drag text into this edit field with Konqi, what a shame....)
Actually, you can drag something off of a window without bringing it to the front.
To do this go to
Control Center(kcontrol) ->
Desktop ->
Window Behaviour.
There are a few combinations that allow this to work properly, I personally use "Focus Follows Mouse" with all the checkboxes in the Focus group unchecked.
Matt