APR
4
2005

Report: KDE at Latin America Free Software Install Festival

Last Saturday saw the first Latin America Free Software Install Fest held simultaneously in 74 cities and 12 countries. KDE was present at the Santiago location for installation assistance and a talk by Maurucio Bahamonde on KDE 3.4. We offered Kubuntu Live CDs to try out the desktop and the team offered help to install.

The event took place in the artistic "El sindicato" Culture Centre, which organiser CDSL had got use of. Visitor numbers were higher than expected.

amaroK and KDevelop were the programs that caused most of the "woo!" sounds, and the whole desktop was very highly rated by the people who tested it on our demo machine.

KDE was represented by KDE Chile members Matias Fernandez (Developer of KoolDock, Author of KGo! and KGoogleApplet), Mauricio Bahamonde (Author of Kopete text to speech plugin), Matias Valdenegro, Duncan Mac-Vicar (Kopete developer and official KDE representative in Chile) and Sebastian Sariego.

Enjoy the pictures of the event:

Comments

> background studies that prove you should fuck around the button order

That has been GNOME's original usability sin. They destroyed a very important part of *consistency* on the UNIXoid desktop. They spoiled it for everyone not running a GNOME-only or a pure non-GNOME environment.


By cm at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>Oh you mean the background studies that prove you should fuck around the button >>order and use a spatial file browser? Please, are you serious? Take a user poll >>sometime and find out how many people hate the GNOME HIG. The GNOME HIG was more >>dictated by corporations looking for a profit than anyone concerned with polling >>users.

The fact you don't like the buttons order or the spatial way doesn't give you the right to say it is wrong, I like the button order even I use that oreder in my appications and my customers are more pleased.

>>The KDE HIG is by the people for the people and is supported by the SUPERIOR KDE >>framework. GNOME HIG is hit and miss (but mostly miss), KDE HIG is right on
>>target.

What people are you talking about? KDE geeks? there's is diference from final users and the "people" you say.

>>GNOME development is also a mess. This is why Miguel is wasting all his time >>on cloning .NET.

This makes me think that you really have no idea about the mono project, if GNOME development it is a mess too well is not my problem, tell me in what part of my comment I mentioned GNOME HIG or GNOME development structure? none? well, that is because you are confusing this threat as a KDE vs GNOME subject, im talking about usuability and licenses and what is the best for Latin American countries trying to uses open sourse toolkits.

I wont even reply to you anymore, abviously you have no idea of what you are talkin about.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Yes the button order and spatial is very wrong. It breaks usability in GNOME very bad. My customers don't like this! I too am developer and I tell them to use KDE which they like since KDE HIG is superior to GNOME HIG.

The GNOME .NET problem is an even bigger threat. You as a developer should understand this! What happen when Microsoft ask you for money to use their .NET patent? Your country will become even poorer because of this lawsuit!

Brazil government don't like that GNOME steal from .NET and cause problems. It is better they use KDE for better usability and it is not illegal like GNOME .NET.


By dc at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>Yes the button order and spatial is very wrong. It breaks usability in GNOME >>very >bad. My customers don't like this! I too am developer and I tell them to >>>use KDE which they like since KDE HIG is superior to GNOME HIG.

Your customers have their point of view mine have theirs.

>>Yes the button order and spatial is very wrong.

Show me the document where it way how the order of the buttons must be.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> Im as much GNOME fan as you are a KDE fan

but we're not the same kind of fan, you see. i don't run around the internet fighting and fud'ing against "the other guys". that's because i realize that this is counter productive to ALL of our efforts.

regardless of the accuracy of what you think, there are productive ways to express it and non-productive ways. you're showing an excellent example of the latter. whether you realize it or not, you're hurting GNOME as much if not more than you are "telling the truth as you see it about KDE" by doing this. and why do i care that you hurt GNOME? because what hurts GNOME hurts KDE, and vice versa. from a general public perspective we, the open source desktop projects, are in this TOGETHER.

then again, perhaps you don't care about the success of the open source desktop in the real world; perhaps posting inflammatory messages on the internet is a more important thing to you. =/

now, i'm not saying we all have to pretend to love everything everyone else does. i'm simply suggesting there are positive ways to express our opinions in a way that doesn't necessarily come at the expense of others.


By Aaron J. Seigo at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Well I didn't think I expressed in a wrong way, I mean, if you gonna "sell" a product, you have to tell the true, pros and cons.

If you say product is completly perfect (Telling all the pros w/o the cons) then you are cheating your customers.

And this help to make the final product better.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Have you looked at an advertisement lately? The way to sell a product is to only talk about the pros. Marketing based on full truth will only sell to a tiny niche.

But regardless, constructive criticism is appreciated, but yours is definitely not constructive. Saying KDE is no good because of the QT license is stupid. First of all, that topic has been beaten to death, and secondly, no one on this forum has the power to change this.

So what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish by making inflammatory remarks about this subject on this site? Even if everyone agreed with you, it would change nothing, so you might as well not post at all.


By Leo Spalteholz at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Yes, the topic has been beating up before, but in differenct subjects, never about KDE being inplanted in Latin American countries.

My statement haven't been inflamatory, Im just pointing some flaws that may have inplantation of KDE in Latin America, if users in this forum can't answer in a smart and educated way w/o insulting, is not my problem.

Im a developer who lives in Latin America and makes a living of it, if something like this

>>>Saying KDE is no good because of the QT license is stupid.

Is not stupid, hiding information to 3Th. World Users about possible licensing issues is not only stupid, it hypocrit.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> Is not stupid, hiding information to 3Th. World Users about possible licensing issues is not only stupid, it hypocrit.

Just re-checked and the pricing and licencing information are still reachable on Trolltech's website, maybe there is a problem with your internet connection/browser/proxy?


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>Just re-checked and the pricing and licencing information are still reachable on >>Trolltech's website, maybe there is a problem with your internet >>connection/browser/proxy?

And where is the link in the KDE webpage to that page?

I don't see it, I know because you are telling me, but what about the others?

Good, now if only you specific to Latin American users that KDE is on top of Qt technology and put a link to the prices, that will do it.

Thx.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Hmm, you are right, the link to the Trolltech Website is in the FAQ and the developer documentations.

Maybe the authors of the website assumed that everybody knew that KDE uses Qt?

It should perhaps be more visible on the frontpage of the developer website developer.kde.org


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Wow, you are right, sorry.

Thx.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

No need to apologize, it is really too hidden, at least on the developers site.


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

The link is there. Are you blind? Check in KDE Family. Or use Konqueror with its superior usability to Firefox. Konqueror simply works sometimes in Firefox you are blind and don't see everything on the page maybe because of bad pop-up blocking.

Maybe the other Latin American users are too poor as you are saying to come on the internet although they have old computer. The developers are almost begging on the street trying to sell their commercial software, all of them can't yet afford internet access anyway and have to use pirated Windows copy which is full of spyware. This is why they cannot surf the internet and read information. Brazil government speak against this. :-(


By dc at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> And where is the link in the KDE webpage to that page?

What does KDE have to do with the pricing and license information of Qt?


By ac at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Indeed, I loved the Aprils Fools joke of swaping Planet KDE/Gnome since it showed that really we're on the same team.


By Ian Monroe at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> Im just saying what I think, KDE has no chance in Latin America.

Good thing our contributors from Latin America think different :)
But maybe there are different Latin Americas on this planet, maybe we are not even talking even the same planet?


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Well, they are Latin Americans who write GPL code mostly for hobby, what about all the developers in Latin America that make a living from writing comercial software?

Right now they are migrating to .NET with a cost of less than $300 dls, paying $1,500 to migrate is just to expensive for them and out of the question.

If they are gonna program in Linux Im sure they will use GTK.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

you mean like http://infosial.com who make FacturaLUX (http://FacturaLUX.org), an ERP suite using Qt?

i don't even live there or keep up with the South American software scene as much as i probably should, and even i know about FacturaLUX. i'm sure there are many others. like Connectiva. ;)


By Aaron J. Seigo at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>>you mean like http://infosial.com who make FacturaLUX (http://FacturaLUX.org), an ERP suite using Qt?

You are talking about thos big companies that can buy Qt liceses and are just a small minirity?

What a bout the small companies of 1 to 5 employes that cannot buy them?, are they gonna get relegated? who is going to help them? TrollTech will sell them liceses in $300 dls? no?

What can they do?


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

A fact you don't seem to grasp is the fact that close to zero of the small companies you like to talk abut, do development based on selling copies of their application like the "big" softwarehoses. They make their living selling custom applications to limited number of customers, most likely different for each customer. The customer pay for the solution and support, not the application. In such scenarios there are ample opportunity to either factor in the cost of any tools needed (eg Qt) in the contracts, or doing the whole project as GPL. Using the GPL will not hurt you, since most customer are not in the software distribution business. And distribution a specialized software solution usuall only benefits their competition so this will newer happen. In addition using the GPL gives you access to a incredible amount of quality code, which can help you finish the project both quicker and cheaper(more profit).


By Morty at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>They make their living selling custom applications to limited number of customers, most likely different for each customer.

That's what I was talking about

>>The customer pay for the solution and support, not the application.

Yes and expensier licenses make expensier final products.

>>Using the GPL will not hurt you, since most customer are not in the software distribution business.

Just the fact that that will hurt my support to the sustomer, I I give my software as GPL im srewed, Other will take it my customers will dump me and other will take advantages of the program I made with all effort.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> Just the fact that that will hurt my support to the sustomer, I I give my software as GPL im srewed, Other will take it my customers will dump me and other will take advantages of the program I made with all effort.

LOL! We didn't know that you're selling a shareware notepad clone.


By ac at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Totally wrong, if you are not in the business of screwing your customers and use them as cash cows that is. Like delivering a crappy product needing constant support or similar.

You don't give them the application you sell it to them, GPL allows and encourage this practice. If you base your income on the eventual supportcontract you get when selling the application, you only have to keep the customer happy with your performance and effectively. Given you are not pricing yourself unreasonable compared to your competition. In cases like this you have to be real bad to make your customers switch, since they have already made an investment in you. Getting another contractor up to speed with routines, functionality and code are inconvenient and costs money and time. All heavy factors making the customer stay with you.


By Morty at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

You are way too focused on your personal problem with free software.

I'd say most of our Latin American developers are professional software developers and if they think spending their precious spare time on learning and working with some technology is ultimatively a waste of resources, they wouldn't do it.

Of course there are developers who want to restrict themselves to Windows as much as possible and of course they cheered upon the rise of .Net

Of course there are developers who like to believe that they are the only ones who can create certain tools so user will even pay small amounts of money for them (also known as the shareware misconception, i.e. plenty of gratis toolkits on Linux yet not very much shareware)


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Im sure there are some of them, but remember Latin American countries are poor contries Qt liceses for the masses is out of the question.

>>You are way too focused on your personal problem with free software.

Hell no, I love free software , I use it, since GNUMERIC to INKSCAPE in my Windows PC, I hate the fact to pay an expensive licenses to a company in Norway, Microsoft with all its flaws can sell it more cheaper and GTK with all its flaws allow me to save money.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>I hate the fact to pay an expensive licenses to a company in Norway.

And you have nothing against people paying expensive licenses to you, I suppose... Now who is the hypocrite?


By Amadeo at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>>And you have nothing against people paying expensive licenses to you, I suppose... Now who is the hypocrite?

No I don't, if they but it, is because they have money and can buy it, and that is their problem, Im talking as a developer in Latin America who cannot pay for them and like me there are many, that IT IS my problem.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

You will have big problem with Mono. Just wait for Microsoft to knock on your door. ;-)


By dc at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Don't worrie, Im ready =).


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> Im talking as a developer in Latin America who cannot pay for them and like me there are many, that IT IS my problem

Well, then *don't buy* the Qt license. Do you really think that anybody here cares about *your* choice of toolkit?

If you can't afford a license and you are also afraid to ask Trolltech for a discount, then that is okay. But please stop this trolling.

Thanks


By ac at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

You said "KDE has no chance in Latin America"
Then I said obivously our Latin American developers think the opposite.
Then you suggest that their opinion doesn't count because its a hobby, to which I pointed out that they are very likely not investing time and other resources in something they don't believe in having value for their professional life as well.

But as you insist that the price for a specific Qt licence makes their professional opinion about the future of a technology null and void, I guess that there is a huge difference in which part of Latin America you live.

And perhaps the customers where you live are only willing to pay for licences and never for any service. Poor IBM must have closed all outlets there.

> Microsoft with all its flaws can sell it more cheaper

As far as I know there is no Microsoft product comparable to Qt.
Mostly because they have strong interests to bind developers to their platform, so I find it highly doubtable that they should really offer an application framework which allows at least Windows+Unix/Linux development.


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>>Then you suggest that their opinion doesn't count because its a hobby

I dind't say they opinion doesn't count', got read it again and don't put words I didn't say, those developers have all my respect.

They of view is totally diferent from some one who makes a living of comercial software, if you knew how much a developer in Latin America earns a year you would be surprised.

>>But as you insist that the price for a specific Qt licence makes their professional opinion about the future of a technology null and void, I guess that there is a huge difference in which part of Latin America you live.

All the countries have the same common problem, they are poor and want to reduce cost, not make them bigger and .NET/GTK it is cheaper.

>>>Poor IBM must have closed all outlets there.

IBM is a company that can pay for Qt licenses and give services to bussiness who have money enoght to pay for support to IBM, what about the small bussines who can't pay for IBM support?

>>As far as I know there is no Microsoft product comparable to Qt.

They don't need to develpe one. .NET cover the needs and is cheaper.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> I dind't say they opinion doesn't count'

True, you didn't, but at the moment I brought them as an argument, you put them down to "hobby" status, while most if not all of them are prefessional developer like you claim you are too.

> if you knew how much a developer in Latin America earns a year you would be surprised.

I don't know, never ever claimed I did, all I said was that our developers from over there have a different opinion and I guess they know.
And if knowing how much a developer earns in Latin America and still believe that investing resources into KDE than I make assumptions on why their view differs so much from yours.

> what about the small bussines who can't pay for IBM support?

That's the point!
IBM can make huge profits offering service to big businesses, so why can't anyone else make profits offering services for small business (logically on a different price scale)

> They don't need to develpe one. .NET cover the needs and is cheaper.

Last time I checked Microsoft didn't have an implementeion for any other platform than their different Windows platforms.
Sure that is some kind of multiplatform as well, but not the kind of multi platform I was thinking of, which at least involves Linux :)

But I am not following that closely, if you can point me to either a download page on microsoft.com or a press release on their website where they have at least a Linux port, I take everything back


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>And if knowing how much a developer earns in Latin America and still believe that investing resources into KDE than I make assumptions on why their view differs so much from yours.

That's the problme you don't seem to understan, many Latin American developers can't invest in KDE because they are poor and doesn't have the money, tha's what Im trying to tell you they can barely survive qith the money they make to buy expensive Qt licenses, and why buy a Qt licenses when there are another cheaper options for they needs?

>>IBM can make huge profits offering service to big businesses, so why can't anyone else make profits offering services for small business (logically on a different price scale)

Because:
1.- they don't have the money to invest in Qt licenes like IBM
2.- Expensive licenses make final product expensier.
3.- there are already chepar options.

>>Last time I checked Microsoft didn't have an implementeion for any other >>platform than their different Windows platforms.

Well then I recomment to go to an cheaper option like Novell or Sun Java Desktop, but not Qt/KDE.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

I do understand that there is a huge difference in financial situations between Europe and Latin America that's why I based my comments on the opinions of the KDE developers in Latin America as they had posted them on this topic.

I do believe that they know the local situation a lot better than I do, I even believe they know it as good as you do.
And I am really sorry but I they claim something that differs from your claim, they have higher credability for me.

> 1.- they don't have the money to invest in Qt licenes like IBM

I am afraid I can follow you thoughts here. How are Qt licences related to IBM service contracts?

> 3.- there are already chepar options.

Very good. So other companies already do make profit with cheaper support contracts, that was my point, wasn't it?

> Well then I recomment to go to an cheaper option like Novell or Sun Java Desktop

So I take it that your information about Microsoft offering something comparable to Qt was all wrong?


By Kevin Krammer at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

> what about the small bussines who can't pay for IBM support?

Well that's okay. But do you see any of those small businesses troll on the IBM forums that their support contracts are too expensive?


By ac at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Hi, i am in Venezuela, and most of us use KDE.

With globalization, it doesn't matter if KDE "fails" in latin america. As long as i can download it from here, it has succeeded. So shut up your keyhole, troll.


By Anonymous Coward at Wed, 2005/04/06 - 5:00am

[i]Qt is free as in GPL[/i]

Not everyone, special goverment, likes to write GPL applications, the alternative is to pay $1500 per developer and in LatinAmerica that is out the Questions.

GNOME is more popular in Brazil than KDE, the Telecentros sponsored by goverment are running on GNOME desktop, and companies usually uses Goverment line ups.

KDE simple, has no chance in Latin America.


By ASD... at Mon, 2005/04/04 - 5:00am

Not quite agree with your statement.
First of all, been around whole Brazil in last year ( and again starting this month ) going invited to talk about KDE and been fully sponsored, i saw the adoption of both desktops equally accepted.
Is a matter of fact that much of the installed hardware park is too old to accept ANY of the modern desktops like KDE or Gnome, and that's why we have a lot of computer users ( not regular users ) using XFCE, windowMaker or lightweight things like Black/Fluxbox.
During my travels, i saw the Telecentros ( which is implemented in part by the company which i work ) using Gnome, in the same way as i see major governments using variants of Kurumin ( a knoppix based brazilian distro ) and last year large part of ITI using KDE on Mandrake Linux.
The reality is that never exists such prediposition for one or another desktop. The old "GPL","Non-Free" blame is just reduced to some intransigent niches which thanksfully not represent the majority of IT migration serious teams.
At least i can mention some educational ONG's preparing to migrate to KDE in São Paulo to earn the benefits of KDE Edu project, and the advent of Kontact with their flexibility of groupware access been more than well accepted here.
Please let your unbiased comments off to not make nice people outside here think we are a bunch of morons


By Helio Chissini ... at Mon, 2005/04/04 - 5:00am

it seems you think GNOME is free and not GPL while KDE/Qt is free and GPL.
freedom speaking, GNOME and KDE are the same, they're both GPL.
So you say that government does not like GPL then that Telecentros sponsored by government runs GNOME in Brazil then from that you deduce KDE has no chance in the whole Latin America! Wew, what a neat demonstration, i'd like having your deducting power.
And "Not everyone, special goverment, likes to write GPL applications, the alternative is to pay $1500 per developer and in LatinAmerica that is out the Questions." so no GPL and no license? hmm, what's left? ah, I see, GNOME!


By anon at Mon, 2005/04/04 - 5:00am

Im just putting the disadvantages of using KDE, yes the licenses IT IS an issue.

It is cheaper to keep using Microsft Windows than switch to KDE.

President Silva from Brazil he wantys to use Free software to not give money to a monopoly like Microsoft, what's the diference in giving the Money to a Monopoly in USA than giving it to one in Norway?

I really think KDE has no chance in Latin America at all.


By ASD... at Mon, 2005/04/04 - 5:00am

Conectiva Linux is a Mandrake like distros it ships with all the DE possible.

And I couln't read where it says the develope with Qt software, (yes, I can read portguese)


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Mandrake is phasing out GNOME but you didn't get a press-release on that did you. Look at how many Mandrake products come with only KDE. Conectiva has always favored KDE. Period.

Aseigo admitted this, why can't you?


By dc at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

BTW, aren't they the creators of Synaptic, a GTK application?


By ASD at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Kynaptic is maintained by both Conectiva and Debian and fully supports KDE.

https://oops.kerneljanitors.org/repos/synaptic/branches/kynaptic/

Also see that GTK-Qt link I provided.


By dc at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

>>>Kynaptic is maintained by both Conectiva and Debian and fully supports KDE

I didn't say they didn't, I said they were the creator of a GTK application, and most of there develpment is GPL, so IM talking about people who doesn't want to write GPL applications.

>>>Also see that GTK-Qt link I provided.

GTK-Qt only makes GTK based application to use KDE dialogs or themes, it wont cut the number of buttons in Konqueror or other KDE cluttered KDE applications.


By ASD... at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

Using the cost factor too justify using windows rather than KDE are actually one of the most stupid arguments I have ever seen:-) Since a commercial Qt don't cost more than about 10-15 windows licenses (Additionally to do anything usefull on windows you need apps, which cost money making this number even lower). And there are no place in the world where commercial development with a ratio of 15 users per developers makes any economic sense whatsoever, expect when the finished product are very highly priced. And in those cases absorbing the cost of Qt licenses are not a big problem anyway.

Take Brazil as an example I'd guess if they take 10% of what they are paying Microsoft today and give to Trolltech instead, they have development licenses for all developers in Brazil both private and government. They would even have some to share with developers in neighboring countries.

As for your argument about monopoly's, you have to realize Norwegians are much nicer than those pesky American capitalists:-)


By Morty at Tue, 2005/04/05 - 5:00am

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