KDE Commit-Digest for 25th May 2008

In this week's KDE Commit-Digest: Marble gets "temperature" and "precipitation" maps, and a "stars" plugin. More work on "fuzzy searches" in Digikam. Konqueror gets support for crash session recovery and session management. Runners can now be managed using a KPluginSelector-based dialog, and attention-blinking support in Plasma. Various Plasma applets move around KDE SVN before the KDE 4.1 feature freeze takes effect, with WebKit applet support moving into kdebase. SVG stuff from WebKit starts to be integrated into KHTML. More optimisations in KHTML, with KJS/Frostbyte, a version using bytecode and other enhancements, moving back into kdelibs. Start of an implemention of the JavaScript scripting API for PDF documents in Okular, based on KJS. Continued work on KJots integration into Kontact, and creating/editing links between entries in KJots. More work on theming in Amarok 2. Various improvements in kvpnc. More configuration user interfaces in KNetworkManager. Enhancements in the KTorrent bandwidth scheduler plugin. Support for CUPS printing options in KDE printing dialogs. Mailody moves to kdereview. The "OnlineSync" plugin is merged into Akregator. Initial commit of a new MSWord-to-ODF filter for KWord, and a caligraphy tool for Karbon. KDevMon is ported to KDE 4. Development of the Shaman2 package manager is moved into KDE SVN (playground/sysadmin). The PHP-Qt bindings move from playground/bindings to the kdebindings module. KDE 4.1 Beta 1 is tagged for release. Read the rest of the Digest here.

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Comments

by furanku (not verified)

Believe me, I was an am still really unsure to post this comment, especially since you gave me a friendly and helpful answer below.

But: I have strong doubts if this strategy will work out.

I'm afraid that a non-vanishing part of the users will interpret this as "Educating them by withdrawal of love" which, as expierience shows, usually leads to escalation instead of the intended de-escalation. I'm no dev, just a user, but IMHO i'm not sure how much escalation KDE, you, the devs and the users can take before something irreparable breaks. I'm a KDE user since the days before 1.0, but this is the first time I see a situation like this: A real crisis.

Seems to me a bit like KDE is going through the difficult time of puberty and someone has to keep one's nerve. Quit talking seems not an appropriate solution to me.

Anyway, thanks for all the work! Especially yours.

by Aaron Seigo (not verified)

> a non-vanishing part of the users will interpret this

while absolutely true, there's nothing i can do about that. i'm not doing this to make a point to other people, however.

> usually leads to escalation instead of the intended de-escalation

i *hope* it results in community repairs. but if it doesn't, that's not something that really enters into it for me anymore.

> can take before something irreparable breaks.

this statement is months if not years too late. i don't know if you realize just how many people we've lost to the same crap that finally got to me. seen Matthias Ettrich around lately?

> someone has to keep one's nerve.

i'd suggest those remaining as active members in the public community here start with themselves then.

> Quit talking seems not an appropriate solution to me.

i'm still talking, but as an individual.

i'm no longer taking part in any public communication or internal organization on behalf of the project at this point beyond what i feel compelled to do within plasma and to fulfill my responsibilities on the KDE e.V. board.

if you are looking for people to talk to, though, i'd suggest people like Kay above. they seem to be full of ideas and opinions.

by furanku (not verified)

Probably not helpful at all: I've travelled a lot to attend a Kalle Dalheimer talk about pre 1.0, where he claimed that speech recognition would be a high priority issue for 1.0.

I was not disappointed when that did not happen. Currently I'm switching from kde4daily to native builds, and I'm still hopeful that this all will come to a good end.

But to be honest: IMHO some stupid, uneccessary things have been done, which diminish my faith in that.

But maybe I just grew old.

by Aaron Seigo (not verified)

all i'd ask is that when we actually do make true on things that you're still around and that you don't forget.

we're all getting older.

it doesn't mean we have to forget how to dream
it means we learn how to take responsibility.

by Martin Fitzpatrick (not verified)

Aaron

You seem to have (inadvertently?) timed it well. Discussions about moderation/guidelines in the past have come back to notions of free speech and avoiding silencing the vocal minority. But the dot (and KDE community) exists for the advancement and improvement of KDE and not as a personal soapbox for the misinformed. Your stepping back has shown what's at stake if we don't fix it. Thanks.

Out of interest don't you find the whole thing a bit bizarre? If your code had an impact on the Middle East peace process I could understand it but the issues are a "Who's Who?" of "Who Cares?": "double-line taskbar buttons", "cashews" and "icons on the desktop".

I admire your patience because frankly it's a load of toss. Developers (yourself included) have shown themselves to be willing to listen to criticism when presented in an intelligible useful way. I vote for holding the critical minority to the same standards. I doubt they can do it.

Q: Having contributors taking time away from what they enjoy doing to answer questions/feedback/etc. seems like a bad use of time. Are there any KDE teams that act as a go between to get information from developers and present it in understandable way (e.g. for the dot)? I'm sure there are plenty of people out there (I'm one) who enjoys hearing and discussing this stuff enough to do this. As a developer would a gaggle of community monkeys to get your point across be a useful resource - or is writing just down time?

Anyway enough of that.

Thanks for all your work so far and looking forward to seeing how much faster you code without distractions (you thought you'd get a rest?! ;)

by Aaron Seigo (not verified)

> Are there any KDE teams that act as a go between to get information from
> developers and present it in understandable way

not currently. but as i made my exit, i have thrown out this precise idea in various appropriate places. people seem to be actually moving on it, which is promising.

this is something that active and concerned advanced users can do as part of their community involvement that would be immensely useful.

i believe some of them are having a meeting on irc tomorrow or today about this topic. i hope they come up with something good to share with others and start rolling with sooner rather than later.

by Martin Fitzpatrick (not verified)

Thanks for the heads up, I found it in the nick of time ;)

by T. J. Brumfield (not verified)

As of late I have been critical of Plasma and KDE 4. It just means I disagree with things. When I see people make strong personal attacks against you (calling you Hitler) I can certainly understand why it is a tipping point.

I'm just one guy with an opinion (though I imagine there are many who don't speak up who happen to agree with me, as there are plenty of people who disagree with me) but I want to re-echo my last post to you.

I think a lot of the negativity between users and developers comes from a disparity in perception. You can disappear for a while and focus on code, which may be a win because a fully realized KDE 4 might occur sooner because of that. Or you can spend some time on PR and documentation. You suggested I could help with the Wiki. Frankly, finding a means in which I can contribute certainly appeals to me. If I had cash, I'd donate to the eV because I do love me some KDE. I don't presume that I know more than most on KDE since I don't delve into the code. I don't know what future plans are. How can I contribute to the wiki when I wouldn't know what to add? To an extent, those who know the future plans of KDE are best suited to lay them out.

Some wiki entries could keep you from repeating answers. Point to the wiki.

Differences between KDE 3 and 4:

This is intentionally different.
This feature will be added back hopefully around release X.
This is something we haven't gotten around to, and I'm not sure when we will.

Feature Y irks me:

This feature is half implemented, and this is a concept drawing/mock-up of what we're going for in the end.

Etc, etc. etc.

If there are apps that really need documenting, or areas of the wiki that basically anyone can help out on, then point in a direction and I'll jump in.

by Aaron Seigo (not verified)

i really don't care about any disparity in perception at this point. last month? sure. today? not really.

your posts were a few drops in that ocean of hurt that led to me saying, "yeah, i've had enough." if you decide to take something useful out of that is up to you, just as it is up to me to take something useful out of it.

it's cool you're thinking of helping out. i hope you do. KDE can use it.

> Some wiki entries could keep you from repeating answers.

http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Plasma/FAQ

if you go to google and type "plasma faq" it's about four links down. if you type "kde plasma faq" it's the first thing that comes up. it's really not hard to find this stuff.

by Luca Beltrame (not verified)

I also add that contributions to said FAQ are *very* welcome. I plan on adding things (including the infamous question "can I move the applets on the panel"?) but since my time is severely limited nowadays, more input would be welcome.

It's easy, just use Plasma and report common questions and answers to use patterns. Also, spread the word. The more the FAQ is known, the more people will not ask the same questions over and over.

by Martin Fitzpatrick (not verified)

Thanks for your efforts Luca, I'll take a look later.

A good way to push the FAQs and make sure they get read is to link them in any posts where we're answering a "already answered" question (and if it isn't answered add it ;).

by Beat Wolf (not verified)

hei, just wanted to say that there are alot of people out there supporting you, even if most of the time you hear them less than the others. But i think since you stopped talking, the ones supporting you (and the whole kde project) seem to have made a step forward and are support you in a more vocal way.

Anyway, have fun coding (that's what it's all about anyway) :-) and i'm looking forward reading you blog posts again (the technical ones, i hope you won't have to write too many of the others anymore)

by T (not verified)

One of the legends about David Packard when he was running HP was that he went around regularly locking the conference rooms. It seems he felt people were spending too much time talking and not enough time doing real engineering work. Some people were upset about not being able to have meetings, but other people (those doing the actual work) prospered.

KDE developers, enjoy a bit more time for coding!

by furanku (not verified)

Sorry if I ask again for the Mac OS like menu bar. When I asked last for it I got the answer that I could enable it with putting

[KDE]
macStyle=true

into kdeglobals, but it's still buggy. With my current up to date kde4daily image I now don't get any menu bar at all with this setting. When I asked this for the first time, Lubos Lunak generously offered to work on this "somewhen post-4.0".

With respect for the momentary nervous situation: Please see this as a uncomplaining feature request/request for information if this is work in progress.

by Aaron Seigo (not verified)

there's a menubar plasmoid in playground; i think it's reasonable to expect it to be fully ready for 4.2. with folderview also a subject of their work, the developer couldn't move the menubar plasmoid also to completion. but it's there, mostly works well, needs some polishing and can then move on into kdebase or kdeplasmoids.

hth.

by furanku (not verified)

Fine, thanks, good to hear!

Is it in a state that user based testing and bug reports are already welcome or should I wait after the 4.1 release?

by Thomas Zander (not verified)

Things in playground are always open to testing, but you have to compile it yourself and expect bugs, crashes and eating of the children. :)

by furanku (not verified)

OK, then I'll take this as a reason to switch (back) from precompiled kde4daily binaries in a virtual machine to a native SVN KDE installation.

Thanks for the answer.

by T. J. Brumfield (not verified)

KDE now fully integrates with EatBabies.com

by Riddle (not verified)

So I guess there is a KDE recipe viewer, then... (yes, I visited eatbabies.com)

by furanku (not verified)

OK, statistics so far:

On the plus side:

1 installed and working KDE SVN version, including
1 compiled and installed menubar plasmoid and
0 eaten children

On the minus side:

1 not working menubar plasmoid

Tried to enable it in the config files, got no menubar at all, and through "Add Widgets", got a strange grey box with a number in it and a an empty plasmoid with wrong sized handles around it.

But I'll guess developers will have better things to do in the short time to the 4.1 release than to help me to get things in trunk/playground working and this isn't a support board at all. I just report it for the sake of completeness. So I'll leave that for now and try it later again.

Thanks to both of you for your help again!

by Kanwar (not verified)

Shouldn't the title of the post be: KDE Commit-Digest for 25th June 2008?

by Stefan Majewsky (not verified)

See the first comments on this. Danny has some trouble getting them out in time because it's just a tremendous amount of work to read all commit messages and compile a digest.

by Kanwar (not verified)

So, these changes are as per 25th May or 25th June?

by Peter Penz (not verified)

Like Stefan pointed out the first comment says: "I am aware that i'm still a month behind on these Digests, and that my attempts to catch up last weekend didn't fully get the job done."

by m (not verified)

I'm more of a lurker than a commenter, but some of the things here are so downright childish and so silly that it seems impossible not to laugh sardonically.

@ The doomsdayers

Please get some perspective. KDE is a huge project involving many people and many applications yet you seem to think that because one feature of one app isn't going to be implemented or one feature of one app is late that KDE is in a crisis? Not only is that belittling to everyone else in the project but it's simply wrong.

Besides, noone is listening to you anyway. Noone will listen to insults or unconstructive criticism. Here is an example of constructive criticism that people will listen to:

"I think that it would be nice to have a panel that is easy to resize. The current panel takes up too much of my screen and I don't want to have to totally change the theme to get a different panel." (As an aside please don't respond to this. It isn't a serious criticism, just an example)

Now if the developers say that they would rather this not happen, then that's fair enough because, unless you're paying them, you have no valid say on what they do with their time and if you try to tell them then you're going to get ignored. You can only ask very *very* nicely. Don't press the issue. Don't let this prevent you from making further useful constructive criticism on different topics.

If they say that they'll get around to it later (even if it's a year from now) then that's fair enough as well, because good things take time and priorities must be made. Wait, and try not to ask every day because that's just annoying.

If you're lucky, they'll say that it will be in the next release, but that's their say.

Here is a piece of unconstructive criticism:

"Plasma sucks. We should go back to Kicker. Aaron Siego is an idiot. KDE is in a crisis. KDE 4 isn't good enough to make the move over to. People who disagree with me are idiots."

Noone will listen to this. There are no exceptions. Anything you say when you say it like this will be disregarded. If you are not polite, if you try to tell someone what to do, or if you insult someone, then you will get nowhere with them. Keep your criticism constructive and people may listen to you.

@ The People Fighting Back

Don't do that. Do unto others and all of that - are you really surprised people keep insulting you when you're insulting them back?

@ Aaron Siego

95% of everything is bunk. Including what people say about you. Sometimes people are going to react badly misinterpreting your intention or what you say ... that happens. Some people won't listen to you, and some people will just be mean to you. That doesn't say much about you, it just says a lot about them.

As I said before, I'm a lurker. However I've read a lot and, since I've been a developer for over a decade now, though not of KDE, I understood all of it and the reasons behind it. You're good at this. Extremely good. Keep it up what will result will be fantastic. I can't thank you enough for what you have already done.

(and, by the way, I *liked* reading your blog. It was interesting and you have good ideas. Is there some way people who want to listen to what you say can get invites to read it?)

by yman (not verified)

Amen.

by Thomas (not verified)

It seems it is much easier for people with some programming/developing knowledge to understand or see the idea behind plasma and what Aaron is heading for.
It's fine if you don't know much about programming at all but you want to voice your concerns, but some people are just overly rude and have no sense of decency at all. Still, we don't know their state of mind or their age. Can be it's just some 15year old, who is just in puberty and unhappy with himself. It would be such a pity, if this behaviour is succesful after all and gets committed contributors down.

by Anonymous (not verified)

Personally, I think that what's happened is that people with lots of time on their hands and nothing better to do spent their time attacking plasma and Aaron (i.e., trolls). I found a post by Penguin Pete on what's going on with this dynamic and also why most of the kvetching over interfaces is just so much noise:

http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=interface_obsession_syndro...

http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=the_six_kinds_of_anti_foss...

Definitely worth a read.

by Richard Dale (not verified)

Excellent links! A very good read. I was thinking of doing something similar with a KDE Troll FAQ, giving details of each type of Troll such as their belief system, ways to spot them, and countermeasures. But I think Penguin Pete has done a much better and funnier job that I could ever hope to do.

I feel one type of troll that we get all the time on KDE Dot News, that Mr Penguin left out, is what I would call the 'Armchair Manager Windbag'. This type will write enormously lengthy posts about how the KDE developers did the wrong thing at the wrong time, which usually contain no actual content whatsoever. They are really bad news because the enormous initial post and the equally tedious responses totally drown out any useful discussion which is happening here.

How do you identify them? They seem to like initials and won't sign their posts as are 'Geoff' or 'Jane', but as something 'R B Steinkopf' or P.K.R. They also will refer to posts they have made in the first person, as though they are someone who they consider very important. For example, 'Two years ago I told Aaron that 16x16 icons were too big'.

What effective counter measures are there against these bores? I genuinely don't know. Although they clearly have excellent language skills they never actually lift a finger to improve the project documentation, translations or anything else. So I think the best tactic is to needle them about how we couldn't care less what they think unless they contribute something useful to the project.

I need to stop now, don't want to be considered an 'Armchair Windbag'..

--Richard