11 Myths about KDE
Saturday, 12 July 2008 | Skuegler
As a response to recent negativity on the Internet, we've been working with Groklaw to get a story running detailing facts about questions such as "Releasing KDE 4.0 was a mistake", "I am forced to use the kickoff menu", "The whole KDE4 desktop interface is radically new". among others. Thanks go out to Pamela Jones for giving the KDE community a chance to rectify certain points that have recently been said in public. This way, we hope to make it easier for journalists to put KDE's direction, recent decisions and put simple myths into the right light.
Comments:
teamwork! - sebas - 2008-07-12
It's actually not a hundred percent accurate to have only my name up there, since it really was teamwork. Jeff, Thiago, Jos, Wade and Aaron have all helped a lot with patiently explaining all those things.
life is a mistake ;) - R. J. - 2008-07-12
Releasing KDE 4 was a mistake. Releasing Vista was a mistake. Iphone was a mistake. The world is flat. On and on. No matter what you do there will always be people who moan and bitch, it is their nature. Some people don't like KDE 4 and have stuck with 3.5, some have moved to gnome. Some didn't like gnome when compared to kde 4 and moved to it. Personally, I think KDE 4 is revolutionary. Change takes time to adapt. The problem is also, sometimes, well, I think more than often, a lot of the negativity about KDE 4 is not from KDE 4 users, but comes from users of other desktops. Really, sometimes you need to wear gumboots when walking through the linux community because it is so fractured. I'm tired of hearing people come into other forums and put down distro's so they can say their distro is better. In the article, number 9, the kde team does not listen to their users, wow. I've had problems with KDE 4 when it was in alpha, and I am more than impressed with the answers Aaron gave, and constantly gives, even when people ignore what he is saying and keep asking. And impressed with other KDE developers who constantly answer questions. Thanks guys. Ok, now for one my complaint about KDE 4. Where to from here, it seems so great, I can't even begin to imagine what a KDE 5 would look like So in closing, Aaron, and everyone else who is responsible for this awfully amazing release, thank you.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - anonymous - 2008-07-12
> I think KDE 4 is revolutionary What is really revolutionary with KDE4? Desktop applets on a desktop PC with to much pixels/border around them? KDE4 looks and will be really cool on a small device like a N810. But desktop applets system calls like dbus isn't revolutionary. Give KDE3 users the new features (WebKit Engine, new features of KMail like tags) from KDE4 and they don't switch to KDE4. System wide tagging with Nepomuk/Strigi isn't really useful on a desktop PC because I know many user saving files on a network drive. Then you lost the tagging informations. On small device I think tagging is useful again. But we want to use a desktop for desktop PCs / Laptops and this will be reason why people stay with KDE3
Re: life is a mistake ;) - elveo - 2008-07-12
there might be some error in your reasoning. I made the switch from the KDE3 series to 4.0.something some time ago. Alas, I couldnt move the icons on the panel and Nepomuk will also find use in later versions. The thing that kept me using 4.0.x inspite of this being a dev release, is: - the great shape that the edu-applications come with. They are great in KDE3, yes, they have been polished a lot. The parley-plasmoid is really useful (which may have been introduced in the 4.1 dev versions) - the note-plasmoids. whenever there's something i need to pin down instantly, the plasmoid is there for me. no launching another app, always reminding me when i look at my wallpaper. - since 4.1 there s folderview. And, that, sirs and siras who wrote that, rocks epicly. It s not only displaying the any folders contence, I can even drag and drop stuff from other windows like konq, dolphin into that folder. No need to open or split a window in case of wanting to copy a file, folderview is there for me. How awesome is that? - the ability to move plasmoids from the desktop to panel, the beauty of svg, oh and speaking of beauty: - the look of kde4, in which plasma plays a big part on my desktop, got me hooked. it s simly beautiful. So basicly, it looks like I switched to the 4th series of KDE because of plasma, in it s infants it offers to me more already than the previous version of KDE, which may not be the case to you, because you *absolutely* need a feature which just has not yet been implented. And speaking of plasma, am I the only one who thinks that it s amazingly fast at start up? The Desktop loads and *boom* all plasmoids are there, fully useable, while the rest of the program-family is doing a nice job keeping my hd busy. awesome! So, yeah, people switched to use KDE 4, people find it useful, and as more and more people find it superior to prior versions and it continues to fit their needs, more and more people will switch. One last thing: a huge big-up & thanks for everyone making the development of this project continue to rock! I rest my case.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Bobby - 2008-07-12
"Give KDE3 users the new features (WebKit Engine, new features of KMail like tags) from KDE4 and they don't switch to KDE4." That's what you got with KDE 4, so what are you asking for? If you don't want or like Nepomuk then simple turn it off. I can't understand what you are complaining about. It's like saying: "give me an old car with the best Farari engine out there". Why can't people satisfy?
Re: life is a mistake ;) - suy - 2008-07-13
"(...) because I know many user saving files on a network drive." I know a lot more saving files in their local hard drive. I win. :)
Re: life is a mistake ;) - markus - 2008-07-12
I think, you're absolutely right. "...a lot of the negativity about KDE 4 is not from KDE 4 users.." Well, all the "real" KDE-users I've talked with, are rather pleased with KDE. Many of them already love it. Everybody understands, that it is work in progress. I was wondering myself, who are all those people complaining. Personly, I can't wait for Nepomuk, which is an amazing thing for desktop-users. (Maybe some people are too narrowminded to see its usefullness now. I'm sure, they will change their mind).
Re: life is a mistake ;) - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
People who don't like KDE 4 aren't likely to be KDE 4 users. Where do you think they got their complaints from? I try KDE 4 out regularly. I'd actually like to be wrong on this issue. I'd like to see a great KDE 4 desktop. Unfortunately I haven't.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - doc_ds - 2008-07-13
I'm using KDE since 1.xx, so more than 13 years, if I'm not mistaken. And I don't like KDE 4.0.x, KDE 4.1 is better, but still far away from my standards. Sorry guys, but KDE 4.x needs a lot more than some fading away and some nice smoothing. That's the functionality. When I need to add an Icon, and lost about 10miniutes, just to be able to move the icon, not to click on it, then I lost my temper, not to mention different backgrounds on different desktops? Is so hard to do it? Yes, because design doesn't allow, switching desktop is not real, it's just a screen refresh. Revolutionary, it must be. Sorry on sarcasm, but I am really disappointed in KDE 4.x. Thus I switched to gnome, because Fedora doesn't ship KDE 3.5.9 any more.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Morty - 2008-07-13
>not to mention different backgrounds on different desktops? Is so hard to do it? No it's not hard, but it takes time and no one has gotten around to do it yet. One reason may be that people has been busy doing things rated as more important and perhaps even harder to do. >Thus I switched to gnome, because Fedora doesn't ship KDE 3.5.9 any more Well that's entirely a Fedora issue, perhaps you could be better of switching to a different distribution more targeted towards users like you? Besides Gnome don't do different backgrounds on different desktops either :-)
Re: life is a mistake ;) - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-14
I believe the Fedora 9 installer has a KDE 4 default, but I'd wager KDE 3.5.9 packages still exist.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - doc_ds - 2008-07-14
Yes it has only one desktop backgrounds, but functionality of gnome is stable. No Fedora9 does ship kdepim 3.5.9 and kdevelop, and some others, which are not available in KDE 4.x branch. I could, though, change the distro, but I'll still use 3.5.9 :). At my university we learned that wasting time on the harder thing first is always mistake. Takes the energy off, and at the end you cannot do easy part also. Therefore I did always easier part on the exams the first. Than I get effect that I did something and I give the full strength to the harder tasks. Leaving things on the half against more important is actually clear mistake of the leadership, not programmers, and gives a feel of unfinished, which is for any less experience user disaster. As I said before, I am really hard user of KDE, but I don't like KDE 4.0.x and 4.1 is not so improved as it should be.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Morty - 2008-07-14
Doing the easy part first is not always a good option, even on exams. Even if it's easy it may take time, and that may be valuable time better spent on the hard parts. And often the situation is that the hard parts are more worth than the easy, spending time solving the 1/10th problem rather than the 9/10 one does not make sense if you have limited time. And sometimes you even have to solve the hard one first to be able to do the easy one. And when you pool your resources is actually great leadership and project management(especially in FOSS) to leave the less important and simple cases, and let the highly skilled developers first concentrate on the important and hard problems. The developers can address the less important cases later, when the time permits. Or if you are lucky a "less" skilled developer comes along and fixes the issues(In a company it may be the new guy, in FOSS it may be you or me).
Re: life is a mistake ;) - doc_ds - 2008-07-15
Actually, you mentioned here, there is a general rule in software 1/10 = 9/10 in time, so at the end it cost you the same, even more in some cases, and you benefit from the functionality the most. So the accent at the HMI is always functionality, believe me, I've clients which complains about color of the shades sometimes. No one benefit hard work behind, it actually doesn't matter. If you have a sausage like code which do everything and super portable code which do, almost, everything, but a crash there, crash here, and so on. The costumer always chose stability over portability. The BG has that in his head, thus Windows has the best HMI, no kidding, and it is portable backwards, yeah it is C-API still, but money is there. On the other hand Linux has the best stability as OS, but sentence like you need to remove your .kde folder before install the new one is a bit out of the league. KDE has no even user backup policy. As I said, when my wife tried the KDE 4.1 she said: "The very nice splash screen, amazing, but I don't understand anything afterwards". Those small thing cost the same time as 9/10 and giving to the less experience onces is a big mistake. Two time alt+F2 in a row and yuppie! A d-bus error, that nerves, but seriously. At the end in my mother tongue there is a sentence: "A bad one can destroy the work of the three good ones".
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-15
> but sentence like you need to remove your .kde folder before install the new one is a bit out of the league Nobody should ever suggest that! This kind of "solution" is a left over from the mindset of proprietary software support, where each problem can supposedly be "solved" by reinstalling some component. In my talks about doing community based Free Software user support, I always remind the audience not to do things like this, but rather to either narrow down the problem until one can find a real solution or to leave it to someone else in the support community. However, since a lot of us have been exposed to the "problem -> reinstall" mindset for quite some time, mistakes like that can happen. If anyone sees it copming up somewhere, I recommend to remind both involved parties (the one asking for help and the one giving a less the ideal suggestion) that they are looking on a last resort kind of measure.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Stephan Sokolow - 2008-07-14
I've only been using KDE since 3.2, but here's my view. KDE 3.5.9 meets my needs almost perfectly as it is, but I'm open to new things. KDE 4 has potential and I'll switch once the feature set catches up. Until then, using KDE 4 applications inside a KDE 3.5.9 desktop provides some of the benefits. (What I'm really looking forward to is for KWin 4.x to be stable enough for me to use it comfortably. Then I can port the Compiz effects which are more than just eye candy) I wouldn't use GNOME if you paid me. Not only is the setup at odds with how I work (among other things, Nautilus lacks support for tabs, GnomeVFS is a piece of junk, and there's no acceptable KParts equivalent) but the philosophy (that the developers should produce an efficient UI that the users can get used to) is pretty much the easiest way anyone can get on my bad side. (I know how I want my computer to work. It WILL adapt to me, not me to it) Oh, and gnome-panel and Nautilus don't seem to get along very well with dual-monitor setups.
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Fri13 - 2008-07-12
Releasing KDE4 was amazing.... because it will develop to be more robust and better desktop every month, thanks for ALL developers about that! What is totally mistake, is to believe that those people who complain about KDE4, has not RTFA . I know that KDE4 is not currently on *great* shape, but it will come. I did know that 4.0.x is for developers so I didn't even suggest it for my friends or I didn't use it for daily purpose. I tested it and reported bugs etc, doing that what I CAN do, to help community. I dont complain about things what I cant fix, I can only suggest and inform those things for people, who know how to code and who are solving problems to do what we, users want! I can only thank those efforts what they do, not complain. I can say if somekind idea does not sound good, but I always need to keep in my mind that I can be wrong because I dont understand the big picture what they are working. So, if now on next 2 years KDE4 does not develop to status where it isn't in good shape (does not crash (what does not mean that it would crash now!), does not have options etc), then I can start complaining if KDE devels do not listen their "audience" and start acting more like GNOME devs, telling users WHAT is best etc. I hope that there is no more "mistakes" by users to complain about KDE4, because it is not ready. I dont complain about windows Vista, even that I would suspect that world biggest software company would make better version of Windows NT, without hassle, but it happens on bigger circles too!
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Craig - 2008-07-14
I agree. KDE 3.X was nice. Some great ideas went into KDE4 like Plasma and the new sound interface. However, KDE4 seems to fall short of the functionality and capabilities of KDE3. The out of the box experience of KDE4 scares the hell out of hew users. Also, releasing KDE4 and telling users that the kde teams recommends waiting for 4.1 or 4.2 does not make sense. I for one wanted 4.0 to be usable and ready for prime time. 4.0 was in my opinion alpha code and should have been labeled that way. Now after all is said, I do think KDE4 will be a great OS. I just don't see that happening until 4.2. Craig
Re: life is a mistake ;) - Clayton - 2008-07-17
I think what the complaints are mostly about are peoples own self revulsion towards anything that even rings of ¨pure¨ function. I am using KDE4 for the unvaunted job of being my GUI for the LAMP I just made, and quite frankly, it is one of the simplisticlly most efficient and subtley beautiful gui´ś I´ve had the pleasure of working with. If people want more bloatware that spends 90% of it´s processes performing what I like to label Arnold Horschack processing going ¨oooh, oooh, Mista Clayton!¨ trying to wow me with complete and total waste to make me look at it, go back to Vista............the Revolution marches on, like Juggernaut, and anything that gets in it´s path will merely get assimilated, chewed on for its best parts, then relegated to the dustbin. For the most part, my only peeve with K4 is that if I type too fast for it sometimes, it reverts to periodically throw in some little european fonting, nothing worth getting all fired up about. Keep up the good work ladies and gentlemen, keep it simple, and efficient.....test test test
haha - KDE User - 2008-07-12
-- I love the icon/forum topic. Something definitely went wrong with KDE4, whether it is a PR, management or code issue or a combination of these. Sad to see these articles are necessary.
kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - andreas nicholas - 2008-07-12
saying KDE4 is a mistake is like calling calling firefox 3 a mistake or even at a more rudimentary level calling "new years" a mistake... I don't know how people could be so stupid, so daft and ignorant and yet still be able to use linux (I guess it means the ubuntu plan is working!) KDE is glossy, sexy and foolproof. it's as pretty as gnome only not a complete waste of time and system resources and much more utilitarian... KDE4 (and the innovative corporate opensource apps being developed in our year of industrialized linux progression) makes linux really for the first time a completely viable operating system (unlike microsoft). capable and universal (unlike windows) -sleek and smooth like os x, universal, free, and opensource. KDE is the reason why countries, corporations and people across the globe will switch to linux, many of them trying it for the first time, and most won't go back... certainly kde3 always reminded me of win98 second edition crossed with functionality, but its significantly improved, so why can't we all move on? I don't understand people who dont LOVE kde4. are they just old fashioned? I mean that doesn't make sense! someone please explain what my kde4 is doing that others can't, because all I see is a fully functional interface with a really enjoyable desktop experience, and I'm thankful for every bit processed in front of my eyes :)
Looks - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
There is much more to a desktop than looks. I don't think the KDE team would call KDE 4 foolproof. You compare KDE3 to Win98 SE, except most people I show my KDE 3 desktop (with Compiz) are blown away, and say it is nicer than Vista. I've converted a few of my die-hard Microsoft coworkers. <quote>KDE is the reason why countries, corporations and people across the globe will switch to linux, many of them trying it for the first time, and most won't go back...</quote> What do you mean by KDE here? If you read up on feedback from Fedora and openSUSE, almost everyone using KDE 4 for the first time is outraged. I think putting KDE 4.0.4 (what shipped with F9 and oS11) in front of a new user will put people off KDE. It is quite possible that KDE 4.1 or 4.2 might make much better impressions, but I certainly wouldn't recommend KDE 4.0.x to new users. <quote>I don't understand people who dont LOVE kde4. are they just old fashioned? I mean that doesn't make sense!</quote> The day KDE 4 provides me with all the flexibility of KDE 3 and allows me to have my desktop exactly how I want it, I might use it everyday. I do try it out regularly. I've been trying out the 4.1 betas from openSUSE and is getting closer, but there are several things about KDE 4 that really irk me. I'm glad we have a classic menu, because Kickoff is horribly inefficient, yet the classic menu looks old. I believe it is possible to have a useful menu that actually helps you find things quickly without getting in the way. I look forward to trying out Lancelot and Raptor, but KDE 4 doesn't currently present me with a decent menu option. I think having an applet window on my desktop for icons just looks bad. People keep insisting that makes me stupid, and clearly I don't understand the purpose of folderview. Great, I can have different directories there. Except that is no real advantage. I can just as easily open a file manager to see a different directory, except the file manager is more powerful. The smart searches and filtering is nice, but I'm more interested in having that kind of power in my file manager. What I really want to see is icons done well. I would have assumed this would have been part of the criteria for a KDE 4.0 release. Reinventing the desktop from 4.0 to 4.1 also concerns me that perhaps there wasn't, or isn't a proper plan for the Plasma desktop. It should be noted that many things like Nepomuk, Solid, Sonnet, SVG, Phonon, Akondi, etc. I really dig. I think there are aspects of KDE 4 that are huge improvements over KDE 3. I just really don't like the desktop. ZUI may prove useful to me in the future, but I'm the sort that doesn't even bother with multiple desktops currently. I like dual-head monitors, but everything is visible. But currently, Plasma offers me no real incentive or advantages over the KDE 3 desktop. There may yet be some innovation in desktop usage I personally find exciting, but I've yet to see it.
Re: Looks - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-12
> I think having an applet window on my desktop for icons just looks bad. People keep insisting that makes me stupid, and clearly I don't understand the purpose of folderview. I'd rather say you did miss all of the several demonstrations which show that the folderview applet can have a couple of visualizations, where one of them is a fullscreen, no decoration, container area. Once applet background drawing is made plugin-based for KDE 4.2, this variant of visualization will be indistinguishable from what some people refer to as "icon on desktop". > Great, I can have different directories there. Except that is no real advantage. You probably wanted to write "Except I see no real advantage", because others, including myself find this to be an advantage. I have several groups of icons on the desktop, where each group's icons are related, e.g. belong to the same project. In a single-directory-only-view scenario I either have to have copies or need to create links to the real files, which means copying a file into a project folder needs at least one additional step. Even copying to the desktop still requires moving it to the group it belongs to. In a multi-directory-view scenario I copy/save/create files in the folder the files should be in and they automatically get displayed and grouped correctly. > I can just as easily open a file manager to see a different directory, except the file manager is more powerful. You are currently most likely not using your desktop as a quick access to files, otherwise you would be aware of the differences between it and using file manager windows. File manager windows have the disadvantage of not being accessible through a single short cut, create an entry in the taskbar, are part of ALT-Tab window switching, need to be switched to "on-all-desktops" manually and can accidentally be closed. I guess this and the point before are hard to understand for people who are just using the desktop as a huge quicklauncher area, without any data files.
Re: Looks - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
> ...where one of them is a fullscreen, no decoration, container area. That also looks ugly. I've said multiple times, that if in 4.2, it operates like a proper desktop with theming, then I'll be happy. I was just concerned that Aaron had been saying for months he wanted to completely get rid of ~/Desktop because he hated the concept. I kept asking questions on the subject, and never really got direct answers. Instead I was repeatedly attacked. I just don't understand implementing the feature before it is ready for primetime. In fact, I hope that someone implements wallpaper and theming into folderview for 4.1.1 rather than making people wait for 4.2 > You probably wanted to write "Except I see no real advantage" You are correct. > I have several groups of icons on the desktop, where each group's icons are related, e.g. belong to the same project. I do too. They are called folders. As for opening other folders, I really prefer a fully functional file manager than some half-expression of that. I also want to be able to have that folder as a window so that it operates like my other windows. I do put all my projects on my desktop. I quickly reach my desktop in a shortcut, and I like that. But when I'm operating with multiple folders, I like them in windows. For one, I can drag from one to the other. In a folderview world, I'm only displaying one folder at a time. I select the files, and I can cut them, display another folder and then paste them. A filer manager gives me split views, tree views, or multiple windows. I have more flexibility.
Re: Looks - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-12
> That also looks ugly. So it is currently ugly because it can't draw a wallpaper yet. IMHO the main point is though, that it is able to perform the restricted role just as well, without needing a different software or whole software stack change. Some other people commenting on folderview seem not to get that the same applet can do windowed and fullscreen mode, despite several well known programs like video players doing exactly the same. Be assured that drawing an image is trivial enough to be implementable in the 4.2 timeframe :) > I was just concerned that Aaron had been saying for months he wanted to completely get rid of ~/Desktop because he hated the concept Well, stating the obvious first, everyone has their own opinion and the nice thing about such a modular system like Plasma is that everyone can use the applets and containers they prefer. Moreover, one of Plasma's explicit goals is to lower the barrier of entry, e.g. allowing people with web skills (HTML, CSS, ECMAScript) to create and contribute applets. Regarding the "hating the concept of ~/Desktop" I can can only guess but I think that the indent was to express the disappointment with the fixed single use case rather than the general "quick access pane" concept. > I do too. They are called folders. Ah, but this is not the same thing for everyone of us. I do have folders on my desktop as well, but I do use them for access to some project's root, while the files-on-desktop are often needed project contents. Basically a partly inverted hierachy, having some important files on the very same level (access wise) as the project's top level directory. For me it is a matter of not having to look for the imporant files, i.e. as opposed to following a nested directory tree from its relative root to the respective target folder. > For one, I can drag from one to the other. Hmm, I think it is possible to drag from/to another folderview and from/to a window. > In a folderview world, I'm only displaying one folder at a time Well, of course if you only have one fullscreen folderview, you are only displaying one folder at a time. Using windowed folderviews obviously allows you to display more than one folder at a time, doesn't it? > A filer manager gives me split views, tree views, or multiple windows. I have more flexibility. True, this is what file managers are for. Folderviews do not replace file managers, their presence in a session does not block starting or using any file manager. They are totally independent views of the file system.
Re: Looks - Morty - 2008-07-13
>Be assured that drawing an image is trivial enough to be implementable in the 4.2 timeframe :) Exactly, and if someone are motivated it can even be done in time of 4.1. Take the folderview code, implement the wallpaper loading(copy it from the part of Plasma drawing it today). Package it up as a 3rd party Plasmoid and release it on www.kde-apps.org. Stuff like this is what Plasma is designed for.
Re: Looks - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-13
"I can can only guess but I think that the indent was to express the disappointment with the fixed single use case rather than the general "quick access pane" concept." correct. having a folder on disk define the layout of your desktop is a really poor concept. we could do much better, and now we are.
Re: Looks - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
Some of us don't like applets on our desktops. The only way I'd use folderview likely is it was my desktop containment with a wallpaper, which would stop me from having multiple folderview applets up. Regardless, having an applet that is less powerful than a file manager, and having it operate as an applet as opposed to a window is a lose-lose for me.
Re: Looks - txf - 2008-07-12
Why then, not use a theme like glassified to make the folderview as transparent as possible and then expand it to fit your whole desktop? Seeing as you're saying you hate to have applets on your desktop it means that folderview is the only one you're going to have then you lock it so the handle does not show and... TADA... entire desktop It is certainly a fairly decent workaround for you until 4.2, right?
Re: Looks - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
It sounds like a mostly usable solution. I likely won't be using KDE 4 much before 4.2 either way, or until I start seeing more configuration options.
Re: Looks - Juan Miguel - 2008-07-13
And frankly, no one cares if you're using KDE 4 or not.
Re: Looks - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
That right there is trolling. It is a statement that has no value other than trying to incite an argument. Thanks for your contribution.
Re: Looks - Stefan - 2008-07-13
Good joke! Maybe you should start actually *thinking* about the value of your own posts...
Re: Looks - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
One post lists specific issues and features. It includes details and is polite. The other contains nothing but a personal slander. Which one did you take umbrage with? People need to drop their bias and read what is written. Just because I don't like KDE 4, that doesn't make me a villain, nor is it suddenly acceptable to take personal shots at me.
Re: Looks - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-13
"Just because I don't like KDE 4, that doesn't make me a villain, nor is it suddenly acceptable to take personal shots at me." that's correct. and in turn i hope is that you read what is written in reply to you and that you treat others and their work with a modicum of respect. it's a give and take world.
Re: Looks - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-13
"The only way I'd use folderview likely is it was my desktop containment with a wallpaper, which would stop me from having multiple folderview applets up." no, it wouldn't. you can have multiple folderview Activities (all fullscren) and switch between them; you can *also* put folderview widgets on top of your full screen folderview Activity. "having an applet that is less powerful than a file manager," compare it to kdesktop and what kdesktop could do. "having it operate as an applet as opposed to a window is a lose-lose for me" it's not meant to replace konqueror or dolphin; the pasma desktop replaces kdesktop+kicker.
Re: Looks - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-14
The moment folderview is my desktop containment with a wallpaper, I'll be happy. I'm not upset that folderview exists or that it provides new features. I just don't like the look of the applet on my desktop. Frankly, the moment it is the desktop with a wallpaper, most people won't notice or understand the difference.
Re: kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - Chris - 2008-07-13
the simple fact is that KDE4 is scary to all the people like me who moved from gnome 1.4 to KDE when gnome 2 came about because: gnome2 = gnome1.4 - everything useful Many people like me have come to love KDE (and in particular the konqueror file manager) - its versatility and the fact that it designed for people with a brain. Having tried KDE4 myself for a week. I was pretty shocked and appalled at what I saw, ie it looks very much like: kde4 = kde3.x - anything useful which is as I said, a very scary turn of events for linux users. Its like we are entering a new dark age.
Re: kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - txf - 2008-07-13
Good effort...Nice way of saying nothing worthwhile at all... dark ages...lol
Re: kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - Raj - 2008-07-20
Actually he does have a valid point. It appears that in a bid to win favor with the corporate backing, KDE is being misled along the Gnome path of simplicity which may lose it the audience that loved its freedom. However KDE still outshines Gnome and all other DEs in every aspect. With no other option available to the KDE users, they may yet hang in there in spite of all the complaints.
Re: kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - Anon - 2008-07-20
"Actually he does have a valid point." No he doesn't; it's just yet another of these bizarre "Feature X from KDE3 didn't make it into 4.0 - it must therefore have been deliberately dropped!" fallacies. "It appears that in a bid to win favor with the corporate backing, KDE is being misled along the Gnome path of simplicity which may lose it the audience that loved its freedom." Since KDE 4.1 is adding features over 4.0, and 4.2 will likely do the same, this is completely backwards.
Re: kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - steve - 2008-07-13
as a relative linux newbie, I pretty much prefer KDE over Gnome. However, for some reason KDE does not completely shut down my Vostro 1000 -- KDM seems to hang or crash or ... who knows ??? So I am using a variety of KDE apps under Gnome. Hey after years (decades?) of near- and not-so-near-misses by Microsoft, IBM, Apple, ... I don't get more that annoyed when things don't work perfectly. Take a deep breath, relax, find some way to resolve the problem Eventually the problem will be solved and I`ll move back to KDE.
Re: kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-14
Which version of KDE where you using? KDE 3.5.9, 4.0.4, 4.0.5, 4.0.83? That might be helpful. Which distro where you using? And did you have to switch to GDM? Did the login screen come up, and you couldn't log into the KDE 4 session, or did you never get a login screen?
Re: kde4score and seven years of KDE hyphyness - Heino Deist - 2008-07-16
It's my first visit to this forum. KDE is what introduced me to Linux and not vice versa! Something I find very amazing, KDE is not what it is because : (1)it mocks competitors or steps on them (2)artificially inflates itself through propaganda (3)rips off the end-user C'mon, how can you not love it!? KDE's team ARE the "Nelson Mandela's" of the software industry. You guys are appreciated
"There is someone wrong on the Internet". - velocifer - 2008-07-12
As an observer and KDE admirer I get the impression that the KDE project culture went from hacker culture more and more into a sectarian belief in the project. Ten years ago everyone spoke openly about technology and of course you could point critics to the hic rhodos hic salta, please fix it. Criticism was always seen as a useful contribution that does not do harm. Because hackers care just about your contributions, not about your look, race, religion, etc. They want your honest opinion. No one was offended by criticism of technology. This was changed into a emo-reward social network of believing coders desperately trying to obstruct heresy. Not unlike the self-censorship in the US in terms of patriotism with respect to the Iraq war/democracy project. What we can clearly see is that development achievements are great but it does not scale well community-wise. In the meantime users don't wait but switch to what works for them. More users, more incredemental development.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - reficolev - 2008-07-12
This has to be the most subtle trolling I've seen in a while. Too bad you spoil it at the end with the "incredemental" thing -- by the way is the typo a lapsus -- which shows clearly enough where you are going.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
You did play into his hand, not that he was trolling. But you proved his point. Either you suggest everything is perfect all the time, or apparently you're a troll. Please someone look up the definition of a troll. "I do not think that word means what you think it means."
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - R. J. - 2008-07-12
There is a huge difference between constructive criticism, and what a lot of crap that gets posted. Perhaps if you observe more, you wil notice that KDE technology is still widely openly talked about. However many people don't read what is said, and over and over ask the same questions, and when it is explained to them, they still argue about it. Not only here, but then taking their personal attacks against them to KDE developers blogs.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
Let me say that there is a bunch of useless, offensive, personal attacks I have seen thrown around. To that regard I welcome moderation here, and I understand people making a stand against personal attacks. However, the GP does have a point. Criticism can be a valuable contribution. I often argue that the biggest reason the Star Wars prequels sucked (and say movies like SpiderMan 3 and such) is that when you are so successful, people stop questioning you. There is no editorial process. You end up with an auteur creation that few are willing to question. Quality decreases. Surrounding yourself with yes-men who will only praise you does not help you in the least. Make a stand when it comes to personal attacks and useless criticism, but welcome criticism none the less. Don't immediately call all the critics trolls.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Stefan Majewsky - 2008-07-13
> Don't immediately call all the critics trolls. When were people doing constructive criticism called trolls? (BTW I've read kde-devel and dot comments closely the last few months.) The only thing I remember is that Aaron was explaining the Plasma roadmap until being bashed by trolls (including nasty comparisons etc.) which is when he stopped to communicate (at least to outside the project). The only incident where I worked together with Aaron (up to now) was when he reviewed some KDiamond code and gave me some hints concerning animation performance. Some of my code was quite idiotic, but he always stayed polite. I see three troubles: 1. There are not enough people contributing code. I agree that users are important and need to express their opinion, but we won't get anywhere further if only everyone complains that feature X is missing. We need somebody who is a) willing to implement feature X and b) has enough knowledge to actually do it. Until we get enough developers to give users back their complete feature set, we even need to lend developers from other areas of KDE, for example kdeedu. -- Note that this is kind of a unique situation: Normally, developers stay in their modules because they do what they're interested in. In this case, developers from all around KDE come to kdebase to help Plasma become the greatest desktop in existence. That is a community-building experience. 2. People tend to oversee the potential of Plasma. I see blogs on Planet KDE about Plasma on screensavers, Plasma on smartphones, usage of Plasma of applications. Plasma is capable of inspiring developers to imagine what they never would have imagined without such a great framework. I can't wait to see what the desktop will look like in one or two years. 3. People tend to oversee the hard work being put in Plasma. The problem with building a new desktop is that you're (obviously) building a new program. And building a new program of this size involves making concepts, drawing on whiteboards (Tokamak, anyone?), and so on. I know that I saw the first Plasmoids about one year ago, when Plasma development was already running for about one year, with all the manpower previously put into KDesktop/Kicker (remember that Aaron was the Kicker maintainer?). Yet it needed one year until the first plasmoid could come onto the screen. From that point on, development went faster and faster. This development makes me confident that the Plasma developers can implement the missing features and yet more in the 4.2 timeframe. On a side note, features are not that easy to implement as they seem. For example, I have been talking to Friedrich Kossebau about the Mac-style menubar plasmoid (which was assigned to him on the 4.1 feature plan). He said that he has some code in Playground but there are technical problems with the window management needed for this. (I do not know exactly what, but it was too hard to solve at the moment even for our KWin guru Lubos Lunak. I do also not know why one can't just copy and paste from the KDE 3 implementation of the Mac-style menu bar, but there must be some reason that makes it so hard.) I know something that certainly doesn't help: poking the involved developers and urging them to solve that problem. Did you ever see a successful company with such an atmosphere between the workers and their bosses?
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
> When were people doing constructive criticism called trolls? I was at least ten times in the past two weeks. If I said I didn't like a feature, then I was immediately and repeatedly labeled a troll. Apparently personal opinions are not welcome here. They need to get moving with moderation, or just disable user feedback here. > There are not enough people contributing code. KDE is a massive project, and I'm sure there is plenty of room for more coders. I learned Pascal almost twenty years back and did some work on BBS door games. I eventually learned some C and C++, but only enough for me to constantly be frustrated by how poor of a coder I was. I know enough to patch software, update patches for newer code, debug some stuff, fix some builds, etc. However, really I cause more trouble than I'm worth. People don't want me anywhere near code.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Luca Beltrame - 2008-07-13
People can not be trolls yet be detrimental to the discussion (notice: I'm speaking in general). It's a matter of how the ideas are proposed and reiterated over the posts. Such kind of people are hard to catch and reprimand, because most of the time they act well inside the boundaries of whatever rules are in place. Ever since I was a Fidonet Echo moderator many years ago, I kept on seeing people like those. Are they trolls in the right definition? Probably not. Are they annoying and energy draining? Definitely yes.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-13
no, T.J., people took poorly to your feedback because your feedback was poorly presented. you really caused your own pain in these cases, and when you can go back and read what you wrote and understand that you'll be able to avoid it in the future.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - illogic-al - 2008-07-13
I would also like to have coital realtions with you, sir.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - sebas - 2008-07-12
I think the essence of this is scalability. Ten years ago, the ecosystem KDE lived in was much more constraint to developers. Nowadays, the Free Software community is much larger and much more diverse. Users aren't necessarily hackers anymore. A one-to-one communication model like you describe the hacker culture ten years ago doesn't scale here. We need better ways to interact with our users, and as that's a large crowd, we also need a way to filter out the information that is relevant for us to make KDE better. And in the first place, we need to address the various groups of people we communicate with with information that is understandable and reachable for them.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - velocifer - 2008-07-12
Ten years ago trolls said KDE/Linux is not as easy as Windows. Today the notion is KDE 3.5 is much better ;-) When you look at KDE and also QT you see that it's very well designed software. Gnome cleaned up the interface and radically reduced complexity (= less that does break) but is quite chaotic and diverse under the hood. Now the KDE rule says don't critize the competitor, I don't care. You can describe Gnome as an ecosystem that amalgamates all technology, but it has no clear defined infrastructure. You can compare it with the catholic church respecting the pope but quite diverse, with different competing groups. KDE is more protestant. It has a clear teaching that is enforced and has a meaning. Such a teaching of course also excludes and limits the contributors to those who see the benefit the infrastructure provides as an advantage. I think Ubuntu did everything right with its Brainstorm online tool. They now want to expand this interaction tool for projects and I guess KDE would be among them. The other question is how to train new developers to work on the plattform and finally how to build a strong business environment that finances further developments. Sorry Mr. Stallman, maybe the shareware model is what we are looking for and it can be GPL compatible. I also appreciate the good documentation of KDE development but there is an entry barrier. Once you are part of the ecosystem you probably don't want back. For most users a good integration of Firefox is probably more important than progress on the ACID conformance with Konqueror. This is not the job of the KDE team but a matter of desktop integration. The great opportunity for KDE4 is to get their applications tested by the larger user base of Windows and Mac users and developers. All the applications so far just became great.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - raptor - 2008-07-12
"Ten years ago trolls said KDE/Linux is not as easy as Windows. " No, people with a brain said that. And they could same the say today, and guess what, they'd be right.
VISTA ?? - Karsten - 2008-07-12
I am just using Konqueror4 under Vista. I am totally amazed by that experience. Vista is for users as my parents a usability nightmare but the developers did many things right. Operating systems are today alsmost irrelevant for the user experience. If Firefox works seemingless under KDE/Linux we are happy. If Firefox works seemingless under Windows we are happy.
Re: VISTA ?? - David Johnson - 2008-07-12
I'm not happy with Firefox, because it does NOT work seemlessly. Not on Windows, not on GNOME and not on KDE. What I dearly love on KDE3 is the near perfect integration of everything with everything else. I'm not talking about look, but feel. Firefox is just a browser, but Konqueror is much more.
Re: VISTA ?? - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
Firefox 3 made some serious strides to better integration with each OS. And apparently there is even a new mozilla-qt branch of a QT-based Firefox. I've yet to see a binary, but supposedly it works.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
There are five different people whose computers I've rebuilt in the past two weeks who I've switched to Linux. None of them are computer savvy, and every single one told with within minutes of using KDE (KDE 3) that they found the interface easier and better. I used to think it was a bit rude to really push Linux on people. However, when I have to constantly wipe computers because of spyware and such, I find it much easier to push Linux these days. Not a single person has ever asked me to go back to Windows yet.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
Windows is a complete usability nightmare, and it only got worse with Vista.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - raptor - 2008-07-13
It's not like Gnome AND KDE(because let's face it, you have to mix the two if you want to get anywhere) are any better. I can go to a store, buy the hardware I need and get it working on Windows in a matter of minutes. I can't do the same on Linux, and don't give me the "it's the manufacturer's blame" bullshit.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Paul Eggleton - 2008-07-13
It is absolutely the manufacturer's fault. Linux kernel developers have even offered to do driver development for free, so if the manufacturer chooses not to take them up on that then you should complain to them. In any case, this discussion is not about hardware support.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - raptor - 2008-07-14
Yes, as long as they release tech specifications and/or source code. Not gonna happen, welcome to the real world.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-14
The developers taking part in the Linux driver project will even sign NDAs if the company does not want to release unrestricted specs to the public. Any company still refusing to cooperate on even their terms, does not want to cooperate at all. Welcome to the real world.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - raptor - 2008-07-14
http://lwn.net/Articles/203562/
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
actually, most companies these days pay developers to support their hardware in linux. Not all, sure, but the same goes for windows - try to install vista on a random laptop, and you'll have to download 5-10 drivers from the web. Linux does much better in that regard, you rarely have to do more than graphics. And it's still getting better, as Dell and HP and others require good linux support from hardwarevendors.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
I've done six different openSUSE installs in the past two weeks. Every single one had all the hardware working right away. I used hplip and every printer was installed within seconds. Fingerprint readers were setup with minutes with incredible ease. Mind you, the fingerprint scanner I have on my work (Windows) laptop has never worked. It is an external APC biopod, and the drivers just don't work. Here is the kicker. I have more hardware driver issues in Windows than anything else. I've been fighting trying to get some hand scanners to work in Windows at work. They are old, and the original drivers at NT4 drivers, but the box was ugpraded to XP. The manufacturer's website is gone, and no drivers to be found. In the Linux world, the drivers are in the kernel. When the driver API changes, all drivers in the kernel get updated. Old hardware support is vastly superior on Linux. Windows does not have an advantage here. Regardless, Linux driver support doesn't relate to KDE or Gnome usability. And frankly, I don't touch Gnome at all. I've tried it a few times and really loathed it. I'd rather use Windows than Gnome, and that is saying something. And yes, I really do believe KDE is vastly better than Windows.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Arnomane - 2008-07-13
Sorry this claim is outdated. My (at that time: Oct. 2006) brand new Acer laptop worked and still works out of the box with at least OpenSuse and Kubuntu (hey it even connected me during install to the next available open WLAN and asked me for downloading security patches...). I haven't come across *any* PC that works out of the box, be it Windows XP or Vista. You always need a separate set of vendor driver CD. Installing them right is a way too complex task for an average user. Ok Ok. PC's come with preinstalled Windows. But still most of them come with shitty nasty tools: Register me here, download me there, try me, buy me blabla... Any OEM Windows I have seen needs heavy tweaking in order to let the user do his work undisturbed. Granted there is some hardware out there that still has some problems running under Linux but it is *way less* than under Windows. Mostly you can reduce it to: * Missing WLAN chip firmware * External devices (e.g. some smart phones) * Reduced 3D capabilities (will be no problem anylonger in the near future) 90% of these problems can be solved with the help of an experienced friend. Have you ever tried running your old but still reliable hardware (especially external devices) under XP or Vista? Under Linux no problem with Windows - almost no chance. Oh I know for you money is no problem and ecology is something for long haird cereal eaters... So stop telling your shit. You are at least 2 years to late.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - mat69 - 2008-07-15
Well drivers have nothing to do with Gnome or KDE, that's rather a part of the Kernel. So blaming desktop environments is not the right choice. Additionally as an Apple user you were urged to buy "supported" Hardware for years, switching from Windows to Apple PCs resulted sometimes in not compatible hardware, the same goes for Linux to some degree. There are homepages trying to list working hardware, that one planning to buy hardware should visit. Yes, there is still a lot to do, I especially had problems with printers -- also "PS"-Printers, that are no real ps-printers -- while other hardware like scanners worked surprisingly well out of the box. Who to blame for that? For new hardware I'd say the companies, for older hardware I'd only say the companies if they did not release specifications. I understand when a company does not want to invest money supporting outdated -- from their point of view -- hardware for alternative plattforms, though reverse engineering is no real alternative as it is too time consuming.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-12
> Nowadays, the Free Software community is much larger and much more diverse. Users aren't necessarily hackers anymore. I agree. In a recent discussion on one of KDE's user support mailinglists we came to the conclusion that this was at least one of the reasons for all this confusion. Our userbase has expanded and now also includes people who are overwhelmed by the level of information they are getting, e.g. developers blogging about what they are currently doing, including technical challengesin great detail. This is IMHO more a problem of all our societies rather than the Free Software community in particular. Mainstream media, corporations and unfortunately also governments tend to restrict the level of detail their public information has, sometimes in order to retain control, sometimes in order to keep an advantage, sometimes in order to avoid inconvenient questions being asked. As a culture based on the principles of information freedom we cannot, actually must not, limit the availability of information at the sender side. However, we might have to think about methods to allow the receipients to limit which kind of information they are exposed to. Over the last couple of years we greatly reduced the technical limitations of our information distribution techniques, e.g. publishing work related items on blogs rather than just mailinglists, therefore opening up this kind of information for a broader audience. Unfortunately parts of this wider audience is now exposed to more information than they can or are willing to handle. But instead of removing development related items for all individuals of this wider audience, we should rather come up with some way to let people filter what kind of content they get, e.g. similar to how we developers use the commit filter to only get commit mails for code parts we are interested in. Probably having more than one feed aggregation on planets, having only high level content in the main one, etc. This still doesn't solve the problem of news sites publishing articles based on some developer blogs, thus exposing their whole audience to a level of information they probably can't or aren't willing to handle, but lets start somewhere.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - David Johnson - 2008-07-12
I hate to agree, but I must. Any criticism of KDE software, even obliquely, is construed to be a personal attack. Even constructive criticisms. I maintain a tiny bit of software that is frequently suggested be dropped from KDE, but I don't put on ashes and rend my beard over it. There are far too many thin skinned fragiles in the KDE community. Not everyone of course! Most developers are great. But there are enough hypersensitives around that you need to tread carefully.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Anon - 2008-07-12
"Any criticism of KDE software, even obliquely, is construed to be a personal attack. Even constructive criticisms." *Any* criticism, you say? Here's 49 that weren't: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-devel&m=121226648604028&w=2 Compare and contrast Sami's post to the kind of inanity you see here on the Dot. Heck, Sami doesn't even flatter the devs very much, but look at the response he gets - not a single accusation of an attack, or anything. People should take a look at his criticisms and learn exactly what so-called "constructive criticisms" really looks like.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
I think he saying any level of criticism is called an attack here on the Dot.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Anon - 2008-07-12
Ok, that would make more sense :)
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-13
that isn't true either; there's been lots of criticism on the dot that is taken quite openly and with good results. i think some people just have a very unrealistic definition of "constructive criticism" combined with an unrealistic expectation of what is owed to them.
Re: "There is someone wrong on the Internet". - illogic-al - 2008-07-13
Will you marry me?
Waiting Eagerly for KDE 4.1 - Robert - 2008-07-12
I have been eagerly awaiting the release of KDE 4.1 and plan on installing it as soon as it is available for the distro I use. The only reason I've waited this long is that 4.0 has been advertised as being for developers and testers. I don't fall into either category. I'm excited about the new desktop. I know there will be a learning curve but there was a learning curve when I switched to Linux and adopted KDE as my desktop. Thanks to all of the developers and your hard work bringing out KDE in all of its versions. Thanks for keeping innovation on the desktop alive.
Re: Waiting Eagerly for KDE 4.1 - andybleaden - 2008-07-15
I have to say that this is exactly where I am sitting. As a linux user via kubuntu since dapper I am constantly learning and experimenting where I can ( I only have this installed at home so time is limiting). Just like Robert has said, KDE 4 is at the moment primarily for developers etc which just ain't me. I am the person as stipulated in the guidance that does need a stable strong system so for now until advised otherwise I will stick with KDE 3.5.9 then update in August and review by the new year progress with KDE4. I cannot (but will have to) wait until it is safer and then switch. The analogy for me is with the upgrades from feisty to gutsy to heron....I waited until the main release and missed the alphas and betas until then. When they were ready and concrete and I felt safe I upgraded with ease ( mostly ;) ) The article from KDE was very useful in explaining the development of KDE4 and I will watch and wait and will upgrade...when it is stable as it looks very good.
NICE! - winter - 2008-07-12
Good article. It's what I would have said to any blathering whiner. As for KDE4: dope! In the words of Snoop Dogg: F#ck the haters... Give what you got, and what you don't got you can keep.
Right.. and wrong also - protomank - 2008-07-12
It seems bashing critics is the new thing those days... good! It was time developers started taking action, but I hope they do the right thing: fix the problems instead of complaining about complains ;) I agree mostly with the article, BUT there are some myths that are actually true. Plasma is not finished is so true that the author says it will be rgreat for 4.1 and 4.2 ... so how this is a myth and not the truth? Now if you say that Plasma is incomplete BUT this is not actually a big problem because it will soon will be fixed, I have to agree, in 4.1 plasma is very mature, even that lacks a lot of functions we users learned to love from 3.5.
Re: Right.. and wrong also - Stefan - 2008-07-12
> so how this is a myth and not the truth? What are you trying to say? Have you actually read the article? This is not about bashing critics, but about people like you writing utter nonsense! "Plasma is not finished" is *no* myth, but the truth, as you rightly recognize .... And nobody of the developers ever claimed the opposite. "Plasma is finished" is a myth, but no truth. Carefully reading and understanding before writing often helps a lot!
Re: Right.. and wrong also - anonymous coward - 2008-07-12
See protomank, even oblique and indirect criticisms like yours gets bashed down hard. There is no room for anything less than blind adulation. Drink the Koolaid and be happy!
Re: Right.. and wrong also - txf - 2008-07-12
Just what about that rebuttal is bashing? Bashing is when there is no point to be made
Re: Right.. and wrong also - Stefan - 2008-07-13
If you have nothing useful to say, then please go and annoy someone else! Nobody has anything against well thought-out and respectful critical discussions. But why do I bother anyway ... you don't even intend to understand it, right?
Re: Right.. and wrong also - suy - 2008-07-13
"Plasma is not finished is so true that the author says it will be rgreat for 4.1 and 4.2 ... so how this is a myth and not the truth?" *sigh* There is no piece of software that is FINISHED. Even TeX has one new bug once in a while. The article says "Plasma lacks functionality", which is completely different. Is true that you can't have right now 100% of the functionality of kicker+kdesktop, but right now you can do things that were completely impossible with KDE 3.5, so, in summary, plasma has a lot more functionality than kicker+kdesktop. It's perfectly OK to say that some people want first the old functionality and care not about the new one, but unfortunately the way the software has to be developed, is not possible to do first the old things, and last the new ones. Those people have to understand that they just need to be a bit more patient. Just because you don't have Qt4-based K3B, doesn't mean it won't be available in a while.
Re: Right.. and wrong also - Iuri Fiedoruk - 2008-07-13
Wasn't that I said I the last paragraph?
Well, one thing that is not in these myths... - fweng - 2008-07-12
And this is why I'm still sticking with 3.5 - KDE4 is too unstable to use for daily work! Now my PC in my office uses Mandriva 2008.1 + KDE 3.5.9, because I did not dare to change to KDE4. In my home's PC I tried to use KDE 4.0.4, and I (can) only use it for receiving mail. The KMail crashes often. Konqueror and Konsole could not change its encodings to my own encodings. I can not use alt+tab to switch between windows. When I logout KDE 4.0 KNotify crashes very often... IMHO KDE 4.0 is still "far from usable" from any aspect. I did not dig more to find out the problems, since I did not spend much time on KDE 4.0. I reported some problems to bugs.kde.org. I hope KDE 4.1 will be more stable, so that I can change my work PC to KDE 4 soon. :) Go, developers. I do appreciate your hard work, and I wish we can see a great desktop soon.
Re: Well, one thing that is not in these myths... - R. J. - 2008-07-12
I personally find KDE 4 to be extremely stable, in fact I have yet to have any problems with it. But I guess that is mainly due to the intense work OpenSUSE have put into it for 11.
Re: Well, one thing that is not in these myths... - Phobeus - 2008-07-12
KDE 4.1 is running pretty stable here (fedora, 4.0.85), so it would be really the last issue I would complain about it. However, I don't understand the whole discussion about: What good users are, what bad users are ... and where is the line of trolls between them. KDE 4 had not proven yet to serve primary their users. It is technically a highlight, the codebase is looking very fine. There are lots of new ideas and concepts that will rock the house and ... most reported bugs that really are nasty are getting killed very fast. BUT ... it is lacking in the area of useability - especially for users that are not that fit in computer technologies. The systray is a pain and heavily broken (all those non-black, transparent, colored, half-icons). It is absolutly not explainable to a new linux users, why this is there (and running in KDE 3.5 fine). Why is it not able to move favorites in kickoff with drag and drop (or any other way than text editor?) And why do we have a taskbar that small that you often cannot read the text in it fine? Cause Aaron says that it would be better this way. EVERY user I present KDE 4.0.x (and nothing changed there in the UI since there) is complaining about not having multirows or something like that. Of course, there is already a plasmoid on kde-look for this, but it has to be compiled against svn, so ... normal users are out. Whoever says that KDE 4 is complete trash, is absolutly wrong. Everywhere there are great highlights and big improvements. However in the area of the useability there are often pretty small issues that terrible breaks the daily use of it. If they get fixed KDE would shine even more. So hopefull KDE 4.2 will fix most of them. Sorry, to have saying some critics, but I am not a fan of "revealing some myths".
Re: Well, one thing that is not in these myths... - Luca Beltrame - 2008-07-12
Some of the points you mention aren't the fault of KDE. For example, systray problems originate from GTK+ bugs (for GTK+ apps) and because of limitations in the fd.o systray specification.
Re: Well, one thing that is not in these myths... - Phobeus - 2008-07-12
They are there and it works for KDE 3.5, so at this point a normal user would stop listening at you. That's not fair, but world isn't. However, I really would like to see a bigger focus on fixing this issues, finding work arrounds etc. It really destroyes the big picture ... (and yes, I am reading the relating bugs, but I am not the person to convince) ;)
great article and greater work with kde4 - draconiak - 2008-07-12
i am testing 4.0.84(suse11) and its really rock´s, beauty and fast, trolls may starving when 4.1 come out.
Re: great article and greater work with kde4 - anonymous coward - 2008-07-12
I'm trying to use 4.0.83, but it slow, buggy and incomplete. Sure it looks nice, but it is unusable. I have never been so frustrated with any KDE in my life, and I started with version 0.99!
Re: great article and greater work with kde4 - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-13
so, two very different (and equally vague =) descriptions of experiences. variables that affect things: * hardware * distribution and packages used * what you are trying to do might be worth comparing the values of these variances between the experiences you two are having.
Re: great article and greater work with kde4 - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-14
When I use KDE I'm usually using a Nvidia card. They have provided superior Linux and Windows drivers for long enough, that I almost always buy them. In the future I may have to look to ATI, but the Nvidia issues seem to be KDE issues, when it is KDE that appears to slow down. KDE 3 doesn't have issues with Nvidia, nor Gnome. Perception seems to outweigh reality with the masses here. Even if the issues is that Nvidia needs better xrender support, I'd contact them and see what I could do to help, otherwise this will be a constant battle you'll have to fight. They won't open their entire driver. Perhaps someone could take existing xrender GPL code from the Intel driver, and use it to improve the nv driver, or write something similar under a LGPL or BSD license that Nvidia can use in their proprietary driver.
Re: great article and greater work with kde4 - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
We will mention the horrible NVIDIA performance in our release announcement. It is present in every Qt 4.x application, and their fault. They should've fixed it long ago. You should be happy we released KDE 4.0 in January, imagine we would've released it now, and NVIDIA wouldn't have fixed their drivers for another 6+ months rendering KDE almost unusable on a large range of hardware...
My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-12
Hello, saying "KDE4 is finished" was a Myth is sort of funny. I don't recall anybody ever say that. But obviously it's an important part of the message that needs to get across. I personally don't question as much the decisions. I am not into Free Software, because I think it somehow avoids all the mistakes. I do think it's valueable to discuss the merit of decisions after the fact. And I think it is valuable to discuss the process too. Replacing the core desktop components kicker/plasma before the replacement was ready, was in my eyes a mistake. And I wonder if it was a necessary one for real. In part I base that argument on the break down of one important pillar, to me the most important one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnet_(KDE) This appeared to me as originated in part by the striking instability of the KDE SVN platform before 4.0.0. When I tried out KDE SVN during earlier development, I basically never managed to get a running system that was useable in some fashion. At the time, I was trying to use KOffice2 for some in house XML project, but in the end, this (and KOffice2's lack of release plan) made me turn my attention away, repeatedly to "later". This may have cooled the interest of developers, even if it shouldn't necessarily, this happens. If I had to choose between Plasma and Sonnet, I would _any_ time take Sonnet as it would have been a clear benefit and innovation, whereas I hardly use anything but task bar and tray from Plasma. I think it will be a year still until Plasma will be a real advantage. Loosing the Sonnet developer was probably related to Plasma, probably not, can somebody tell? http://blog.jacobrideout.net/ Probably there was no such choice. But I think, the "pro-Plasma contra-old" decision was taking the project hostage to focus on Plasma, and I would say unfairly so. So, that's why I would say and suggest KDE that "Replacements shall replace when they are ready." In my perception (only perhaps), the Plasma replacement has hindered KDE4 development more than it has helped it. There is certainly a balance to make, and e.g. Amarok seems to benefit very nicely already, and the KDE 4.2 replacement of kdesktop (even if I don't use it, I understand how important desktop/icons are for many), will be a big adoption leader. But overall, I fail to understand why a non-ready Plasma had to be part of 4.0.0 at all. I tend to dispute that the port of kicker/kdesktop was not actively discouraged, because I remember it differently. I do agree though, that if nobody (developer) ever wanted it, nobody ever volunteered it, no mistakes was made in creating Plasma instead. I just feel that is hard to believe. Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - SSJ - 2008-07-12
"saying "KDE4 is finished" was a Myth is sort of funny. I don't recall anybody ever say that" Plenty of people seem to be assuming it, if not outright stating it. In #kde, for example, many people referred to the upcoming 4.0.0 release as "the final release of KDE4", and many people seem to be judging the entire KDE4 series by the quality of the 4.0.0 release, or assuming that they can judge the direction of KDE by it - as if one could judge the final destination of a ship by watching it leave the harbour! Plus, I've heard many people say that they will (or worse: advise others to) "wait for KDE5" - as if KDE4 will not improve, and as if the initial release of KDE 5.0.0 will be a smooth as butter! So yes, some people really do seem to think precisely that, and so it's definitely a point that needed making. "This appeared to me as originated in part by the striking instability of the KDE SVN platform before 4.0.0. When I tried out KDE SVN during earlier development, I basically never managed to get a running system that was useable in some fashion. At the time, I was trying to use KOffice2 for some in house XML project, but in the end, this (and KOffice2's lack of release plan) made me turn my attention away, repeatedly to "later". This may have cooled the interest of developers, even if it shouldn't necessarily, this happens." According to my graphs, the developmental pace of KDE in the year or so prior to the release of 4.0.0 was higher than it has ever been - in fact, there's a huge spike in the middle of last year that has not yet been matched, so I don't think this is the case. Most developers work on apps, which of course do not need a "running" KDE4 install (merely some kind of stability in the libraries). As the maintainer of KDE4Daily, I've had very little difficulty in getting a huge chunk of KDE4 compiled and running from SVN every day. "If I had to choose between Plasma and Sonnet, I would _any_ time take Sonnet as it would have been a clear benefit and innovation, whereas I hardly use anything but task bar and tray from Plasma. I think it will be a year still until Plasma will be a real advantage. Loosing the Sonnet developer was probably related to Plasma, probably not, can somebody tell? http://blog.jacobrideout.net/" As someone who is monolingual, I find the reverse ;) I can't even begin to imagine why you're trying to tie the loss of the Sonnet developer to Plasma - there is absolutely nothing to suggest it as far as I can tell. The simple fact is that Jacob simply disappeared - no "I'm leaving KDE" note, nothing - and last I heard, no one has a clue if he is even still alive, sadly. "Probably there was no such choice. But I think, the "pro-Plasma contra-old" decision was taking the project hostage to focus on Plasma, and I would say unfairly so." Hmm? The only people focussing on Plasma were the Plasma developers. Your statement seems to imply that the entirety of the KDE dev team was forced to march to the beat of Plasma's drum, which isn't the case. "I tend to dispute that the port of kicker/kdesktop was not actively discouraged, because I remember it differently. I do agree though, that if nobody (developer) ever wanted it, nobody ever volunteered it, no mistakes was made in creating Plasma instead. I just feel that is hard to believe." Why is it so hard to believe? Do you have visions of valiant heroes trying to get Kicker and KDesktop up to speed for KDE4 and a snarling aseigo cracking his whip at them until they are cowed into submission? ;) Occam's razor, dude - Kicker and KDesktop lost mindshare because developers who tried to work with them really that they were a sucky and inflexible codebase and that Plasma was the future. Perhaps it would indeed have made 4.0.0 a better release if Aaron had ignored Plasma to focus on Kicker and KDesktop, but 4.0.0 is just a small part of KDE4 - an increasingly irrelevant part - and working on Plasma seems like a much better long-term proposition to me.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-12
Hello, sad to hear about Jacob getting lost. By "hostage" I mean that the release was only possible once Plasma had reached a barely useable state, and that took longer than anticipated. About Aaron, I hardly would have wanted Aaron to do something he didn't want to do, not that I could have, I also didn't want it. My complaint is fueled by the "No plasma on Windows" part, I got the impression that Aaron had indeed was not being reasonable about Plasma. And about Sonnet. It's a real pity, because with it, people would take more about enterprise readiness of KDE4. Such a unique feature would tremendously benefit the workflow of many people. I still hope it will be done one day. Sadly one few can do it, it appears. And no doubt, working on Plasma is not bad. I have no concern that in the end Plasma will not be a killer application for KDE4. It will be. I just have it on my mind, that with not as aggressive hype/vaporware Plasma, we probably would have both the old stuff and the new stuff and be happy. I can't prove it, but it seems unusual to me how that Plasma thing went. Did KDE ever before abdandom such critical components before there was code? It could well be a sign of maturity. Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - Stefan Majewsky - 2008-07-13
> About Aaron, I hardly would have wanted Aaron to do something he didn't want to do, not that I could have, I also didn't want it. My complaint is fueled by the "No plasma on Windows" part, I got the impression that Aaron had indeed was not being reasonable about Plasma. What do you mean by "No plasma on Windows"? I might have missed talk on that, so I just want to be sure what exactly you're meaning. What I do know is that libplasma is platform agnostic (i.e. no direct dependencies to Xlib etc.) and for example is used in Amarok, even on Windows. Further, Plasma uses/has to use X.org libraries to integrate with the X server. There is simply no way to avoid X.org libraries when you're implementing a desktop. The advantage with Plasma (again AFAIK) is that most of it is platform agnostic, offering a Windows developer the opportunity to possibly port it to Windows. (Even on Windows, it is possible to swap the desktop shell and set Konqueror as default file manager although explorer.exe will go defiant at that point.)
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-13
Hello, I am referring to statements on a blog no longer open to the public. But once upon a time, there was discussion why Free Software should not be ported to Windows. That was of course before the decision was made that KDE will be ported. And later there was a definite "No" to a Plasma port in that blog. I think the argument was that Plasma should be "Linux" (or alike) specific. There is and must be a part of Plasma that abstracts the underlying display technology, but it certainly need not be Xorg that is abstracted. It could well be MacOS or Windows stuff there. Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - Morty - 2008-07-13
The arguments for not porting Plasma(The context was always, the Plasma desktop) are rather simple, straight forward and obvious. The non X11 platforms, Windows and OSX, already have desktop shells. Since running two desktop shells simultaneously are a real mess, it would require Plasma to replace the native ones. But since the native desktop shells are more or less required for applications to run on those platforms, it would requre that Plasma needs to implement the necessary functionality to stay compatible. Not only would it be lot of work and rather quickly run out of scope of Plasma, it would most likely also requre invasive changes to Plasma to make it work. So from a technical angle it is basicly a really bad idea. And when you look at it from a Free Software perspective, it would be rather braindead. Why waste lots of work on trying to replace the standard solution on proritare platforms, when you can spend the resources on improving the Free solution and continue to make it better than the alternatives.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-13
Hello, I accept the point that technically it will be difficult. I not accept your point on Free Software perspective. You know that Free Software _did_ replace everything on everything so far. From replacing the UNIX tar, ls, shell, etc. to the Windows IE, people have and will replace everything they can. And why would KDE bring its applications to Windows with your argumentation. Why then an Amarok where there are already "standard" media players? Why a Konqueror where there is already an IE and Explorer? Once Plasma is better than other desktop shells, I believe it should be ported to the other systems. For a simple reason: More users, more developers, more exposure, more press, more ideas, .... And who to do it? Of course not us who care about Linux, but obviously KDE is going to attract enough Windows/Mac developers, starting with its applications. And probably some smart guys will work out how to deal with the system tray. Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
One if his reasons, I guess, might be to give linux SOME advantage over windows... Anyway, his point is HE won't be working on it - anyone else is free to do so, this is FOSS.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-13
"I am referring to statements on a blog no longer open to the public." incorrect. "I think the argument was that Plasma should be "Linux" (or alike) specific." the plasma workspace will remain on Free operating sytems, yes. libplasma has been portable from day 1. there may well be efforts to port plasma as a desktop shell replacement at some point by others, but my own focus remains free software systems. this in no way hindered any effort within kde, and i resent you making such an insinuation.
Re: My take on "Myths" - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-14
What about libplasma being used in Amarok? I assume that it will be compiled for Windows, so plasma effects to an extent will be available on Windows. I'm guessing the ZUI, taskbar, containments and the like won't show up on Windows however. Is this correct?
Re: My take on "Myths" - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
As he said - he won't work on it, but this is free software so somebody else can.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-14
Hello Aaron, I welcome that the blog is again open, that's great by itself. I also stand corrected and ashamed, as my googling showed that you never said what I thought you said. I might say I picked it up in another forum, but I don't think so. Well, so guess what, I am happy now and hope you are not too angry with me. Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - Craig - 2008-07-14
>"saying "KDE4 is finished" was a Myth is sort of funny. I don't recall anybody >ever say that" > Plenty of people seem to be assuming it, if not outright stating it. The problem is that is was officially released. Yes there were notes that 4.0 was for development and testing. For me that really means that it is Alpha or Beta code. An official release says to the work that is is ready to use in a production environment. KDE 4.0 was clearly not ready for that.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-12
> Replacing the core desktop components kicker/plasma before the replacement was ready, was in my eyes a mistake. > So, that's why I would say and suggest KDE that "Replacements shall replace when they are ready." Good points. However, I am not so sure using KDE3 Kicker and KDesktop or no panel/kmenu and desktop at all would have been understood either. A release without workspace components would probably be possible technically, but I wonder what people's reactions would have been. This is quite easier for non-workspace applications, e.g. the KDE PIM apps, but even there the strategy of keeping the existing implementation as long as necessary has created quite some confusion. Now imaging doing this with workspace apps like Kicker. Some people would probably complain that it is still the same, some would complain that they would need two sets of libraries, some people would probably complain about not having widgets despite some developers working on that. It is always easy to compare options after the fact but I personally I think that shipping a basic workspace built on top of the new stack still looks better than not shipping workspace at all and relying on distributors to ship a combination with a different workspace, e.g. KDE3's one. Of course some people, including yourself, would have preferred this option, but since this is more a matter of runtime, e.g. which programs are auto started with a KDE session, it is still available to users, admins and distributors, while keeping the first option available to those who would like to try it instead.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Aaron Seigo - 2008-07-14
> Replacing the core desktop components kicker/plasma before the replacement was > ready, was in my eyes a mistake. and who was going to get the kde4 ports of kicker and kdesktop working well? at what point would plasma get testing and work? let's see if it was a mistake in a month's time, in 6 months time and in a year's time. > Loosing the Sonnet developer was probably related to Plasma, probably not, that's an accusation not based in fact at all. it's a really low thing to accuse the plasma team over. poor form. > taking the project hostage to focus on Plasma the only people who focused on plasma was the plasma team. everyone else worked on their own parts, just as they always have. i spent a huge amount of my time working on kdelibs as well. so even i wasn't held hostage. may i ask what your supporting evidence for your claims above are? > I fail to understand why a non-ready Plasma had to be part of 4.0.0 at all. because .. it's a part of kde4. not shipping it with 4.0 would've been even more rediculous. 4.0 was a release that it fit into just fine, given what the goal for 4.0 was > I tend to dispute that the port of kicker/kdesktop was not actively > discouraged, because I remember it differently let's not rely on your memory. provide some documentary evidence and we can talk from there.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-14
Hello Aaron, Regarding memory: I can't google your Blog anymore to cite you. That's my excuse for relying on memory. You bet, I would try to back it up. Is it easily possible to make the old Blogs accessible ? I don't think it's wrong to say that you encouraged work on Plasma instead of work on kicker/kdesktop, calling it dead early on. That was not a necessary step to do and that was the mistake. I am not calling it a mistake that you yourself didn't do it, you sure beared a lot maintaining it in KDE 3. And I am not considering Plasma anything but (yet another) genious deed from you, even if its currently visible state is anything but pityful (I was using 4.1 SVN for some time). I would like developers to not push their own projects at the cost of other projects, that's my point. And that accusation, I was just trying to give an example. I didn't say I knew for real. But that's my argument, with Plasma breaking the desktop experience not only for 4.0.0 users badly, but also all the time during development, the incentive to use that desktop was reduced. That may have cost KDE valuable developers. I somehow always assumed that the lack of Sonnet was related to KDE4 taking forever to get usable. I take it could be something unrelated to KDE though. So don't see it as an accusation, just me trying to back up with an example. In reverse, if you - only for a minute - accepted my theory that KDE4 would be stronger in other domains, if Plasma had been developed slower, but with less breakage of the existing desktop. Wouldn't you imagine that a more functional desktop at late Alpha time, would have encouraged even more participation and more pillars of KDE4 to succeed earlier or at all? Your fundamental assumption is that a broken desktop shell didn't harm the development of KDE4 at all. That can't possibly be right, can it? For sure, people could work around it, using KDE3 as desktop shell and only a handful of KDE4 applications. But does that generate the excitement and overall inclusion into KDE4 that many people wanted? For me it did not and I can imagine for others it did not as well. And just to note: And your time in kdelibs was very well spent. I have learned a lot just from observing your refactorings there. That was really fun, I guess to you too. And thanks to Trolltech for letting you have the time, I am 100% certain KDE 4 libraries are a big time better due to your involvment. You really make a difference. So please, the trouble and all that aside. There is a point to be had. I think you should not have discouraged kicker/kdesktop porting from the start. You could have done Plasma even when a KDE 4 alternative to it existed. Obviously now, all is sane, and KDE 4 and Plasma do generate the excitement it takes. After 4.1 and 4.2 releases much relief will be had, and it will all be history. But can we still learn from it? Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - Ian - 2008-07-14
If Aaron and the team had ported kicker etc instead of developing plasma, when do you think it would be a suitable point to release Plasma? Within the KDE4 cycle or hold it over until KDE5? Can you imagine the reaction if plasma replaced kicker etc later in KDE4 development cycle? There are enough people here that couldn't read or comprehend the very simple rationale of the KDE4 4.0 release as it is. It would be a complete waste of resources to port kicker etc all then throw it away. KDE3 to KDE4 is a paradigm shift so it makes perfect sense to make the decision to develop and introduce Plasma in KDE4. Stick to 3.5 until KDE4 suites you.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-15
Hello, there are two important things about release times: Release early. And release when it's ready. The suitable time to replace would have been around 4.2 when Plasma will have become fully able to mimick kicker/kdesktop by means of configuration. That would not have caused uproad but rejoicing instead. And until then, people would have had the freedom to use it already. About that waiste of resources, that would be in the hands of those who do it, to decide. But do you really consider that the community and developers have not lost more time, because of it? I think Plasma would have received only positive feedback ever, had somebody stepped up to port kicker/kdesktop combination, even if only for a limited time. That large amounts of negative feedback itself must have worked to the detriment of Plasma. Who wants to be a part of a project that is seen negatively? May have turned people away from it. And Plasma in KDE4. Sure. But not necessarily exclusively. And while I give up the notion that the port was being actively discouraged (there is no proof for it), I still uphold that the port would have been a huge benefit to the project and not resource loss. I will try to list the losses we incured: a) Momentum. There was a time, when people started to think alternatives would be practically dead in the water once KDE4 will start releases. b) Nobody even considers honestly to make 4.1 the default desktop, because 3.x remains a must-have rival. The desktop shell of 4.1 may still not be stable enough to build on it, although it certainly is getting there. With a kicker/kdesktop port as stable as the old one, it would be a no-brainer. c) I feel there was a chance to loose Aaron as a developer. We definitely lost some of open attitude that was a huge community bond. He is making such a huge difference on both fronts, we won't want to loose him. d) Delayed 4.0 release. Plasma was one of the reasons that caused the delay. With an alternative ready, it would have been simple to delay it past 4.0.0 easily. e) Less feedback on 4.0 before release, because the lack of usable desktop shell prevented early adopters to run/bug report the code for an extended time. All of that makes me regret that I have not have undertaken the effort to port kicker/kdesktop. I mean, how hard could it have been. But in all honesty, I didn't think that Plasma would be so much work, so the issue came only up once all the damage was already done or happening. Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - Boudewijn Rempt - 2008-07-15
4.1 is absolutely a completely fine desktop. I don't doubt most distributions will make it the default in their next release (or 4.2, which should be released in six months or so, if their next release coincides with that). The latest updates I got from OpenSUSE are very stable indeed.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-15
> And release when it's ready. The main problem with that is the definition of "ready". Everybody has their own sets of criteria for it. As one of tens of million of Free Software desktop users I am glad so many projects and software distributors have a different set than those who claim "not ready yet". I value the option to decide for myself when software is ready for my usage patterns, when it does fullfill my set of "ready" criteria. That's the power of "release early", since it allows different target groups to adopt new things at different stages.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Ian - 2008-07-15
"Release early/ready" - they did so the applications developers had access to the APIs. You cannot change a desktop paradigm in the middle of a release cycle, that is complete suicide, so to put plasma into 4.2 is a non-runner. I put most of the issues down to people not reading and understanding what the release of KDE4 4.0 was for. "That large amounts of negative feedback itself must have worked to the detriment of Plasma. Who wants to be a part of a project that is seen negatively? May have turned people away from it." see my point above and i guess you still don't understand it. " All of that makes me regret that I have not have undertaken the effort to port kicker/kdesktop. I mean, how hard could it have been." There is nothing stopping you from doing this even now so what is stopping you? Why not start doing it as an exercise and then you can tell us all, from experience, just how hard/easy it would have been. I think Aaron has the right approach to step outside of repeatedly all these stupid myths perpetuated by people such as yourself. They made the correct design and development decisions, end of story.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-15
Hello, of course you can introduce alternative desktop shells in the middle. What basis do you have to say that you cannot? Can you detail, why we couldn't? The negative feedback of Plasma exists independently of me understanding. Just like some KDE pillars will be later than 4.0, Plasma could have been too. It's not like all KDE 3.5 technology was introduced with 3.0, not at all methinks. I think you are making up a Myth that KDE developers cannot possibly have made any form of suboptimal decisions. <ironic> Now come and tell me, why only Gnome developers can make suboptimal decisions, but not KDE developers. Is it the drinks they get during Akademy? </ironic> To not allow any discussion of what happened, what could have happened and what should have happened, but saying "end of story" is pretty damaging. If you limit the discussion in that way, how is KDE supposed to learn from the past? And about that implementation. Well, hell yeah, it would have been fun. But as a matter of fact, that port could not be ready before 4.2, at which point the Plasma configuration will likely be much better and more capable. Plus the applets would already all be Plasma only at the time. So the only chance to do it was at the start of KDE 4.0, now it's pointless. And in the eyes of many others it was pointless too. But you can trust me, that I would not have wanted KDE to experience, what it experienced now. The thing was, at the time, it was not clear that Plasma would finish so late. I mean, you know Aaron's output, I didn't consider that Plasma would take so long to mature. Plasma has not been attempted before, so it certainly was hard to estimate. Actually I was thinking "Aaron will manage". Probably not the best attitude from me, certainly not helping at all. But meet me in hell. Yours, Kay
Re: My take on "Myths" - Scott Dixon - 2008-07-15
The thing was, at the time, it was not clear that Plasma would finish so late. Plasma was complete as of the initial 4.0 release. It was the panel containment that was not necessarily complete (resize, moving plasmoids), as well as the desktop containment (icons on desktop). The reason no developers wanted to port kicker and kdesktop was because the code was a beast. Have you ever looked at that thing? Devs wanted it replaced because it had become nearly impossible to maintain. Fixing bugs in one area introduced bugs in other areas. It would have been a lot of work porting that over to Qt4. The developers judged that the work required to port the old desktop was too much considering it would be replaced. Also, developers probably recognized (like so few users seem to) that you can still use the old desktop! KDE 3.5.9 is still out there, being maintained. You can even use KDE4 apps with that KDE3 desktop! Should they have released 4.0 as KDE-developer-preview or a beta or something? Maybe. But yelling about it on the internet really isn't helping anything.
Re: My take on "Myths" - Debian User - 2008-07-16
Hello, just to note: The release plan of 4.0 was in part also driven by the planned release party at Google. The final Plasma could not be judged from the last RC by Aarons words here on the dot. Probably a slight indication that another RC would have been due, normally. But I am not among those that think releasing 4.0 at the time was a mistake. Not at all! It's so important for KDE to release, to increase participation. No application porting and a lot less translation would be going on at all without the release happening. The only blame on Plasma could be any form of delay for that release or slow down of adoption of it. And that certainly is the case. The thing that I dislike is that with KDE 4.0 release, for the first time ever, a new KDE version was not ready for adoption as default desktop. And that's solely because of Plasma not yet being in 4.1/4.2 state. A soft migration would have avoided that completely, but probably it was not possible, at least nnd not likely to happen, that's for sure. Yours, Kay
Thanks to the KDE Team for the good work - Andry - 2008-07-12
I'm from MADAGASCAR (an Island in the Indian Ocean), a French speaking country, so apologize for my poor English. This my first post ever on a KDE forum even I've used KDE for almost 8 years now. I started using it with KDE1 included in Mandrake 7. The reason for my post is for the past few weeks, I was shocked by the negativity shown by some people regarding KDE4, and I decided to post here to encourage the KDE4 team for their good work. Still I don't understand people who are using Linux to be closed-minded like this, why didn't they understand that changes are required if you want something to move forward. Sorry to tell this, but European and American people are supposed to have received a better education than us, so if we are able to bear the changes, and understand the challenges I don't understand why they didn't. Personally, I use Slackware (for me the best distro ever), and I always compile KDE4 form source, I never had any serious crashes. I think KDE4 is moving to right direction.
Re: Thanks to the KDE Team for the good work - ne... - 2008-07-12
Gee, I'm British and your English is just as good as mine. No need to apologise for that. That thing about edumacation, I hope you have the stats to back it up. Anyways, people are always going to b*tch about stuff. It is natural to resist change when you do not understand that change. KDE is moving ahead. The openSUSE team have spoilt me, I no longer compile KDE from source. I'm happy and glad you are too. Now if only time can fly by so that I can have everything from KDE that I want...
Re: Thanks to the KDE Team for the good work - Widcket - 2008-07-13
Changes scares people, it have always been that way; so don't worry, there will always be someone who will complain. But there are also many who are more than satisfied with KDE 4. IMHO KDE 4 is a brave move in the right direction, is a bet on the future of the Linux desktop. So keep up the good work guys, and don't worry; you're on the right way.
Always kicking - Berend - 2008-07-12
Every piece of software have people kicking into it. I've seen it allot with Opera, every good thing about software is being avoided, and every response they see as an attack. Why? Of course every software has it's bugs, which could be a reason to kick(a bug rapport would of course be much better, but that would be to easy.) Also you've got people that just love Microsoft and believe that there's nothing better and greater than it(the world is flat?) And for a lot of years that was maybe true, but times changed, and that is very difficult to understand for some. That an article as this one is needed to make the world round again, so be it. It's the moment to bend the negative energy to a positive one. Great work!!!!!!!
The problem is "DESKTOP" - fast_rizwaan - 2008-07-12
KDE 4.1 is great, but still all the complaining is more about *The* Desktop, in KDE 3.x the desktop is a place to store/download important files, which users are so used to. KDE 4.x doesn't have this old desktop, the folder view is annoying (and the composite makes folderview etc. applets very sluggish to work with most AGP cards, Nvidia, Intel (high end ones), etc.) Other issues when kde 4.0 came out 1. Flash plugin was incompatible with konqueror 4.0 and caused crashes. 2. Kickoff menu was incomplete (no resize) 3. Panel (no configuration) Please try KDE 4.0.84 or 4.0.85 (kde 4.1 based), we can see a great desktop (without the desktop ;), no crashes, good performance, and good look and feel. k3b, amarok, ktorrent are just working great.
Re: The problem is "DESKTOP" - Mark Hannessen - 2008-07-12
I am currently running kde 4.0.5 on gentoo and the flash plugin still doesn't work here. ( works fine with firefox though and it is in the list of konqueror plugins.. ) If this is already supposed to be fixed, how do i get it working?
Re: The problem is "DESKTOP" - fast_rizwaan - 2008-07-12
please switch to kde 4.0.84 (kde 4.1beta2) or kde 4.0.85 (kde 4.1rc1). everything just works there. :)
Re: The problem is "DESKTOP" - Mark Hannessen - 2008-07-13
Ah thanks, That's great to hear. It's good enough for me to know that it has been fixed for now. :) I think i will switch to kde 4.1 when it's ready. Building experimental packages like kde 4.1 on gentoo is a bit of a risk and there isn't really any way back... ( and we still have firefox until then.. ) All in all i am pretty happy with the kde4 experience though. People seem to forget that the first kde 3.5 release wasn't that polished either. I understand that sometimes in order to gain something you have to something and i am confident that the developers are making the right choices. kde4 is going to rock.
Re: The problem is "DESKTOP" - Troels Jacobsen - 2008-07-13
> Building experimental packages like kde 4.1 on gentoo is a bit of a risk and there isn't really any way back... You could build in your $HOME using kdesvn-build. http://kdesvn-build.kde.org/. This will give you the possibility to fall back to your system-wide installation at any time.
Re: The problem is "DESKTOP" - Mark Hannessen - 2008-07-13
Sounds like something i might actually try ;) Thanks!
Re: The problem is "DESKTOP" - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
Well, if the flash plugin is incompatible, shouldn't you complain to those who made it? Seriously, the Flash developers changed a lot very low-level things in flash, making it very hard to get it to work with non-firefox browsers on linux... I can hardly blame the Konqi dev's for not keeping up with some proprietary technology, esp in the face of large changes. I'd rather see ppl spend time on the Free alternatives...
"community" - Sepp - 2008-07-12
I didn't post here for a while and I probably won't ever again. The atmosphere on the Dot has become unbearable in the last months. Half of the comments are from angry trolls, repeating their same old FUD again and again. It's refreshing to read KDE-related news on other sites, because the comments there aren't that downright negative. Like mailinglists get flooded by spam, the dot seems to be flooded by trolls. What kind of community news site is that? Why do developers even read the comments on the Dot? I wouldn't... Thanks to the Devs for your hard work, please don't listen to the trolls, you do an awesome job!
Re: "community" - Anon - 2008-07-12
There's going to be a moderation system put in place soon that will hopefully ameliorate things, although the best thing to do with a troll - rather than just mod him or her down - is to tackle their points in a calm and logical manner, no matter how draining this is or how completely thick-headed they are (and you just had to read the comments on some of aseigo's blogs to see how [purposefully?] dense some people can be - you can tell them one thing in incredibly clear and concise English, and they'll still somehow manage to think you mean something completely different). Luckily, you don't necessarily have to be a dev to do this - anyone who has insight into what is *really* going on in KDE-land - rather than the paranoid fantasies some people apparently adhere to - can help out by correcting misconceptions. A good example is here: http://dot.kde.org/1179921215/1214618001/ The poster made a familiar "Wah wah KDE is becoming like GNOME therefore I'm switching to GNOME" (which is pretty dumb anyway, if you think about it), but the two examples he gave of the alleged GNOME-ish tendencies were immediately verifiable as completely, objectively wrong. Sadly, the only person who stepped up to correct these misconceptions was a KDE developer, whose energy, frankly, would be put to better use in coding on KDE. *Anyone* - developer or no - running recent KDE could have stepped in and saved him the trouble, and it's a real shame that they didn't. So, if people really want to start making the Dot a better place, please follow Boud's example and don't just sit around waiting for a dev to do it! :)
Re: "community" - Mark Kretschmann - 2008-07-12
No, the only sane way to deal with real trolls is to ignore them (or downmod, which serves the same purpose). Trying to argue with a troll will just feed it.
Re: "community" - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
I agree. Arguing with a troll isn't productive. A true troll just wants to instigate people and get them riled up. You can completely ignore them, or can you can disarm them. Don't take their bait. Don't let them upset you. But when they post clear fallacies, I agree with the GP that it can be quite effective to correct clear fallacies and disarm them.
Re: "community" - Bobby - 2008-07-12
Especially trolls who never used KDE 4 (or KDE as a matter of fact), trolls who simple look at screen shots and read the articles of other trolls in order to form an opinion which is often a repetition of other trolls. Sometimes I think it's all mixed with a little envy and hate. i would also like to thank the devs for their hard work and especially for having the patience and nerves to tolerate some of the bullsh!t that goes on here.
Re: "community" - Ben - 2008-07-12
The only way things will get better is if the good people stay.
Re: "community" - Cyrille Berger - 2008-07-12
Developers still read the comments because, because there are also a lot of nice comments that motivates us a lot to keep working. (I tend to have "mental filters" on negative comments). But yes a moderation system will be very cool, no need for "mental filters" !
Re: "community" - velocifer - 2008-07-12
no one is forced to reply, you can just ignore negative comments or ask what they propose and plan to improve things. Maybe an angry troll will start a new group to get funds for desktop development slaves or whatever. Or starts coding. You never know. Ask him or her how he wants to solve it.
Re: "community" - anonymous coward - 2008-07-12
Who will moderate the moderators? Banning all criticism, as many here seem to want, will make this nothing more than an echo chamber. Screw that. I don't like trolls either, but they are the price one pays for an open forum discussion. This attitude to "shut up and code" is intellectually dangerous.
Re: "community" - Tom Vollerthun - 2008-07-13
> Who will moderate the moderators? As the users are the moderators themselves: all of us (perhaps with the sane restriction to people with accounts or commenters displaying their real names instead of "anonymous coward" :) Regarding your other point: yes, banning all criticism is bad. Fortunately that's not the point of the dot's coming moderation system. Since you seem to have missed the hate depates that took place here and in the devs' blogs for the last few months, let me just say: t'was no fun. Putting some obstacle into the ways of at least some of these commenters is no sign of an "shut up an code" attitude but one of the last resorts to protect this very community. I am very happy this moderation system will come. Hopefully the dot will become a less hostile place again for people who simply like KDE and it's community, p.e. me.
using 4.1 svn since 1 month - Thomas - 2008-07-12
and dear, this baby is wonderful.... I tell you! I always get the impression that at least 30% of the people trolling here on the dot have only taken a glimpse at kde4.0 or simply never even tried to install it (I have to admit, the svn guide how to compile kde on techbase is confusing). Btw.... it's actually very easy to compile kde on your own (cmake is doing a great job, I think). What I especially like about KDE is that it usually persuades with pure technical merits. Those were meanwhile growing under the surface and are now eager to crop up during the coming release cycles. From my point of view, the moment kde4 was born it became clear that it was born out of a vision. This is what gets me thrilled! There's no corporate control over KDE that is fearing huge changes, this is open-minded development. It's so refreshing to see brilliant ideas not getting stuck in some enterprise suggestion system but getting real at an incredible pace. Being sane and rational all the time, only allowing for incremental improvements is just not how nature works (of course "incremental updates" are important too, but that's only 50% of the game)
I love KDE 4 - Noa - 2008-07-12
KDE 4.0 is by the far better than KDE 3.5. I love technologies like Phonon , when you can develop a video player , audio player or other multimedia widget using Phonon library without thinking in the final backend xine , ffmpeg , gstreamer , ... These kind of changes make an easy and unified way to develop KDE applications.
Just one question - furanku - 2008-07-12
So, if everything is fine, where does all this "negativity on the Internet" come from? Stupid users, loud minorities, obnoxius people, ...? So does KDE have a very special, hostile, loud, ... community? I'm not to sure that that's all about how this could happen. I think, for the moment the situation is like it is. I'm a bit tired to hear the same arguments over and over, resulting in a growing frustration among devs and some users. Well, to tell the truth: I thought the situation is relaxing a bit in the moment as 4.1, eps. with the commits of the last weeks, seems to smooth a lot of former critics, including myself. Surely not all, and some *will* surely come up with "But 4.1 was supposed to be the first one for end users and I still won't switch, because of ..." So be prepared for that. So if we have to go though all that again, IMHO a much more intersting discussion would be: How could it come to this and how could we avoid that this happens again? Aaron once mentioned a "user council", maybe an better user forum would also be needed. Hopefully that could help to boil down the aggresive critics to either discussabel issues or sometimes even to nothing in a sort of "self-hygiene" among the users. And sometimes "visions" about how things should look and work differ, and there's nothing more you can do about that than to accept that. On the other hand I really do think that mistakes in communication from the devs and marketing have been done and that these also contributed in the first place to the first heated and now frustrated situation. Now repeating over and over again "No mistakes had been made" blocks the way to a helpful dicussion what happend. I don't want to see someone "blamed", IMHO we also could skip that whole discussion and close that unpleasant chapter of KDE history (beside that after the release of 4.1 there *will* be again some unhappy users, see above). But if we want to discuss that we should be honest, and learn something from it.
Re: Just one question - Leo S - 2008-07-12
>> On the other hand I really do think that mistakes in communication from the devs and marketing have been done and that these also contributed in the first place to the first heated and now frustrated situation. Now repeating over and over again "No mistakes had been made" blocks the way to a helpful dicussion what happend. Absolutely right. The fact remains that despite everyone insisting that the message about 4.0 was communicated well (it's for testers and devs), if you go to kde.org that is absolutely not the case. The official release announcement for KDE 4.0 doesn't have a single word about how it is not meant for regular users. Sure the message on the planet was clear, but if it's not clear on the official KDE website, then don't be surprised when people don't get it and complain. It would go a long way towards putting this in the past for someone to say "well shit, next time we're going to try to do this better". KDE 4 works great for me, but only because I keep up with all KDE news and had compiled some SVN snapshots before 4.0, so I knew what to expect. That's not the case for most users.
Re: Just one question - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
I think PR on the release certainly could have been better. I think a user's council could be a good idea. I think it be would be useful for the devs to hear outside opinions and gain new perspective.
My view on this issue - Kais Hassan - 2008-07-12
This is the first time I write at KDE.NEWS, so I just want to quickly introduce myself. I am a PhD candidate in the medical imaging domain, before that I worked as a software developer for few years. I have been using Linux + KDE for few months, but my technical background and lots of reading helped me familiarise my self quickly. I felt sad, ashamed and angry when I read the recent nonsense childish writing against KDE4 and its developer's. All of us use FOSS by choice, no one forced us to use it and I think after a while "some people" forget the reason they switched in the first place. Although neither KDE4 nor KDE developers need any defending, I am happy that you wrote this article. Since, it might put some sense back into the minds of those few. As most developers, I view software applications both as an advanced user and as a software engineer. Mostly, I am very critical about the software quality, GUI, eye candy and simplicity. But, I also know that "good" software applications are hard to create. And most developers will focus on creating the basic functionality, then modifying the UI and finally focusing on the performance. Although, I started using Linux through Ubuntu, I soon realised the quality gap between Gnome and KDE. I didn't switch immediately to KDE as I was using Ubuntu and beginning to get comfy with it, and Kubuntu 7.10 at that time was poor. I took my time exploring Gnome, GTK and the development tools, and I didn't like what I saw, specially the code quality and the absence of a solid architecture, many things seemed like a hack. I value all the efforts that have been put by the Gnome developers. But I think it is the time for the Gnome developers to have a hard look at the big picture and remember the basics of FOSS. I cant believe that there are some voices in Gnome pushing towards Microsoft Mono and ignoring Qt!!! Most of the basic issues between KDE/Qt Gnome/GTK are pure political and has nothing to do with technology. I kindly ask from the still free souls at Gnome to drop Mono completely and consider using C++/Qt as a valid alternative. There is noticeable differences between Linux distros that ship KDE. I understand that some are Gnome centred such as RH/Fedora and Ubuntu. It is their choice and we all respect it. But don't treat KDE as if it was a small applications which you can just package in half an hour and pray that everything will be OK. You need to commit enough resources to KDE, for example, compare that Ubuntu have 1 paid developer working on KDE while Pardus have 15 paid developers. I have nothing against any distro, but it is better that they either completely focus on something or just drop it. KDE4 is evolving rapidly and this is an indication that it has a solid framework and a lot of care has been put in the infrastructure design. A few bugs or some missing features should not worry anyone. As long as you have a solid base anything is possible. I can see the some of the new concepts in KDE4 are very useful and I will not be surprised if I saw them implemented in the next releases of Windows and OSX. For all the people behind KDE, thank you from the heart, I hope I can contribute soon to the project. Keep up the great work and don't listen to childish stupid stuff against you personally or KDE. You have to be very proud of what you accomplished.
Re: My view on this issue - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
Now I'm not a hacker, but in name of those others, thank you!
I've always liked KDE 4 - Skeith - 2008-07-12
I admire the developers for doing something that basically amounts to short term pain for long term gain. Some very forward thinking design choices will let the KDE4 series (eventually) overshadow anything around it in all areas.
Thanks to the kde team - monouse - 2008-07-12
i've been using kde 3 for many years now and all i can say is thanks to all the developers that spend time and money to do something for free. those who complaint should be shot on the head why because they're complainting about something they got for free and better yet it's open source which mean you don't like something just change it or fix it what's stopping you. THANKS TO THE KDE TEAM FOR A WONDERFUL DESKTOP!!
Good So Far - Clifford - 2008-07-12
I personally wasn't all that impressed with the 4.0 release. But I also understood that it was the libraries that were stable and not the desktop. I've personally enjoying the latest 4.1 beta. There has been loads of work going into the new desktop and I'm pleased to see it progressing like it has. I think the KDE team has done very well. Thanks for that KDE guys! Even though I'm still exited about the 4.X series there are a few things I would like to have before switching to it. - different wallpapers on different desktops. I absolutely love just adding a directory and not specific wallpapers, but I don't like using the pager, so different wallpapers helps me know what desktop I'm on. - drag 'n drop of the plasmoids from the desktop to the plasma panel and vice versa. - a complete oxygen icon set. Its gotten more and more complete as time has gone one but I still see little white boxes representing folders or programs in the menu. - program stability. I realize that the last version I used was a beta release. However, every time I tried to create a new folder, konqueror and dolphin both crashed on me. Well documented on bugs.kde.org as well... KDE 4.X will get there. It will just take a little time. Thanks for all the hard work so far.
Re: Good So Far - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
<quote>- a complete oxygen icon set.</quote> And please, please replace the folder icons in the Oxygen icon set. In almost every regard, Oxygen is a beautiful icon set. http://enderandrew.com/images/concept.png That, is sadly a color scheme I was playing with to present as a possible concept for the next release of openSUSE. I'm not very happy with it, but you can see the icons I use in the shot. Compare that icon folder to the one from Oxygen.
Re: Good So Far - Anonymous - 2008-07-13
That's a matter of taste. There are some of us who actually like the current Oxygen folder icons. And then again, you're probably free to replace the folder icons on your own setup. It's just a matter of replacing some PNGs. : )
Re: Good So Far - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
You'd be the first I've heard to say they like it, and you're posting anonymously. I've heard plenty of people state they really don't like the folder icons. Click on the link I posted and then compare that to the folder icons currently in Oxygen.
Re: Good So Far - Stefan Majewsky - 2008-07-13
If you need someone with a name who likes the Oxygen folder icons: I do. Oxygen is just a great composition, from the window decoration that blends with the window colors to the folder icons. I absolutely love that look.
Re: Good So Far - Luca Beltrame - 2008-07-13
I like the folder icons too. And a note: personal experience is not statistically significant.
Re: Good So Far - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
I won't argue that point. However it would be unfair for me to suggest that most people hate the icons, when I don't know that to be the case. The only thing I can speak of with certainty is my own experiences. On kde-look.org and here on the Dot, I read tons of negative comments about the folder icons. I tend to agree. I think most of the Oxygen icons are incredible, and Nuno Pinheiro constantly amazes me with his designs. In KDE 4 in reality looked more like his mock-ups, I'd likely use it.
Re: Good So Far - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
Yeah, a 'me too' here. I like 'em...
Re: Good So Far - Clifford - 2008-07-21
On my original post I never said I didn't like the Oxygen set. I simply stated that I would really like it to be *complete*. I know it takes loads of work to do some great graphics. I think Oxygen looks great so far. But I also think that once the first folder icon is created it should be fairly easy to finish up the rest. Of course I'm a terrible graphics designer and have no skills with Gimp, Krita, or Inkscape. Just because I said I would like to see it completed doesn't mean I didn't like it.
I think you forgot the number one myth - blackbelt_jones - 2008-07-12
Myth number one is that KDE 3.5 will no longer be maintained. KDE3.5 remains alive and well, a new release is coming. The plug is not about to be pulled at any minute. No one is going to be forced to make the jump anytime soon. We've got plenty of time to get used to it, and it's got a long way to go, and KDE 3.5 is still here, the default for practically every distro. That's all I needed to hear; I don't really care about the other stuff. This is a good step, but you really ought to put it on the website. People who want to know what's going on with KDE aren't necessarily going to go to groklaw.
Re: I think you forgot the number one myth - Tom Vollerthun - 2008-07-13
You are right: perhaps that fact is not visible enough. But luckily, that can be corrected easily and it should: every non-advanced user that thinks KDE 3.5 will be stopped, will be in great fears when trying out KDE 4.0. On the other hand, probably not more than a mention on the main kde-site would be needed. The truth is: You can savely run the KDE 3.5-series for the next few years. Since my wife and daughter both didn't like 4.0, they stayed with 3.5 and will stay for the next time. Meanwhile, I am using the development version from SVN ever since perhaps november. Add some test installations of the 4.0 packages from my distribution, and you see that it's perfectly possible (and actually quite easy) to have both versions and more side by side. Coming to think of it: I think this side-by-side installation is the officially recommended way of "switching" to the new version (a slow switch, really :).
people simply love to complain - bwayne - 2008-07-12
... and that's a fact. Nothing gets more attention, makes you feel like part of the in-crowd, and is easier to do than complain. Give someone a bar of gold and I'm sure they'll whine "Gosh it's so heavy!". And without having to look the other person in the eye, people on the internet seem to have gotten a lot cruder and more inconsiderate, too. Add these factors to a group who are already used to getting things for free (the end-user FOSS crowd) and you've got a big baby on your hands. Please realize I'm not describing the (silent) majority of you ought there -- those of you who appreciate all the hard work that goes into the *FREE* *EXCELLENT* tools you use everyday.
Re: people simply love to complain - furanku - 2008-07-13
And that's it? Just unneccessay complains? Apart from that everythung's just perfect?!
KDE4 ROCKs! - Ravi Vagadia - 2008-07-12
Using KDE 4.1 (Neon Project) and it simply rocks!!! KDE 4 IS revolutionary, I think some people just cant accept changes...
Good Idea - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
Let me say that I think this is a very good approach. Pam from Groklaw is awesome as per usual. I have yet to read the article, which I'm just about to do. However the summary mentions a few myths that seem rather subjective. "I am forced to use the kickoff menu" is objective, and false. It is good to clear up true myths like that. However the other two examples cited do seem to be a matter of opinion. I'm not sure they can be classified using objective standards.
Direct article feedback - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
<quote>"We do not think we're anywhere near that point. A fork is a necessity only when other alternatives have failed. Yet people are calling for a fork of KDE without even trying those alternatives. We call that irresponsible."</quote> I think a fork of a project like KDE is extremely unlikely, and I think it is extremely unhealthy for the community. I would strongly urge people to reconsider making such suggestions. However, I understand how both sides feel here. When a developer says "I will refuse patches submitted on an issue" people may feel like no other alternatives exist. The alternative really is a fork without the typical connotation of a fork. Some blogged (can't recall which, SVJ?) called for a fork in which someone rewrites KDE 3 and maintains that. That isn't going to happen. However, when you don't like the upstream version, and they refuse to include a patch, I think the solution is to contact the package maintainers from your distro of choice. They may accept a patch. You have your fork, in that you have your alternative version of the package, but you're not dividing the whole community. It should be noted, on the cashew issue that originated some of this mess, openSUSE made their own patch precisely because Aaron wouldn't accept it upstream. Some problems like these fix themselves. <quote>"KDE needs to drop Plasma"</quote> I thought these were fact debunking myths. Again, most of what I'm reading in the article so far is opinion. However, as a big KDE 4 critic, let me say that KDE should not drop Plasma. Plasma has many things going for it. Asking for the direction of the desktop to change is one thing. Asking for Plasma to be dropped is ridiculous. If you really hate Plasma, then use KDE 3. <quote>"Plasma lacks functionality"</quote> I think this is semantics. People equate Plasma with their desktop, which it is to an extent. When they can't configure their desktop, or their panel, they see a lack of functionality. One could contend factually that they are missing the functionality they are missing. Maybe a better answer might be along the lines, "from a developer perspective, we feel that Plasma is a robust and powerful framework that provides vastly more functionality that the old kicker/kdesktop code. We understand that end users may be missing some of the customization options they have come to expect from KDE 3. In time we plan to add most of those options back, as well as many new features. So please be patient." <quote>"The KDE team does not listen to its users"</quote> The KDE team is massive. There have been complaints that Aaron said he would not address, yet those complaints were addressed. I am going to assume that Aaron does not represent the opinions of every developer working on Plasma, let alone KDE. I'd say as of late Aaron has certainly expressed little desire to listen to feedback from users. Comments such as saying that you can't understand interface issues unless you read the code create a schism between users and developers that I don't feel is healthy for the project. However, it is a gross misrepresentation to suggest that entire KDE team does not listen to users. You'll note, that despite being labeled (unfairly) as a troll, I mostly defend the project and the people associated with it. I have primarily said good things about KDE over the years. Personally if I say that I find someone to be an interface issue, that the interface causes problems and affects the way I use the desktop, I have a valid right to that opinion. When someone suggests I am stupid and don't understand what a containment is, because otherwise I'd never complain, then I'm not the troll. If anything, I feel like I'm the victim of a personal attack here, and the other side isn't listening. I think there is definitely some truth to saying that some KDE developers clearly aren't listening to their user base. Interface/ergonomic issues are best addressed by a wide range of users. Listen when they offer advice. Again, I praise the concept of this article. I only bring up the subjective/objective thing because I'm pedantic and have a thing for semantics. I for one hope to see a healthy relationship from users and developers in the KDE community in the future.
Re: Direct article feedback - Luca Beltrame - 2008-07-12
"When someone suggests I am stupid and don't understand what a containment is, because otherwise I'd never complain, then I'm not the troll. If anything, I feel like I'm the victim of a personal attack here, and the other side isn't listening" I assume you are talking about the ability to remove the cashew? I just put a non technical explanation on the Plasma FAQ (and notice that such a thing has been said *a lot of times* already): http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Plasma/FAQ#Please_provide_an_option_to_disable_the_upper_right_cashew. "Although putting an option to disable the cashew for desktops sounds reasonable, from a coding point of view it would introduce unnecessary complexity and would break the design. What has been suggested is, since the destkop itself (a containment) is handled by plugins, to write a plugin that would draw the desktop without the cashew itself. Currently some work ("blank desktop" plugin) is already present in KDE SVN. With containment type switching expected by KDE 4.2, it is not unreasonable to see alternative desktop types developed by then."
Re: Direct article feedback - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-12
When I commented on it, I was told I was stupid and didn't understand what a containment was. I understand what Aaron said about the complexity of the issue. But frankly, that doesn't change the fact that the cashew was causing problems with people even when they weren't trying to interact with it. That makes it a serious interface issue, not just one of aesthetics. Here is another solution. Remove the cashew completely, and create a different interface for adding widgets that isn't problematic. Instead, we get a response of "not only do we think your issues are not relevant, but we're going to call you stupid for bringing them up," which masks the actual issue of "doing so means considerably redesigning how these things are handled and I don't feel like doing that. I feel that in in the end, my design will be fine, so we'll have to live with the bumps until then." Aaron did at one point express it more like that, with the quote that made it into the FAQ. However, more often than not he wasn't so diplomatic with his replies.
Re: Direct article feedback - Luca Beltrame - 2008-07-13
"When I commented on it, I was told I was stupid and didn't understand what a containment was." Quotes, please.
Re: Direct article feedback - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-13
I have to go reread bug reports and posts, but I'll find them.
Re: Direct article feedback - Tom Vollerthun - 2008-07-13
Coincidently I remember having read a thread like that on the dot. Although I neither recall if the one called stupid was him nor if the developer was Aaron, I tend to attribute that affair to the heated atmosphere of the last months. I have the feeling that most developers (and some users, too) woke up since one of them didn't see any other possibility than to refuse any public communication. This waking up has already resulted in a better atmosphere and I hope we'll get back to sane communications soon. But I think it's not one single comment or one single technical (usability?) issue that should be discussed here, but how we (as a community) can prevent that our communications ever de-escalate so badly again that a long-term user and a core-developer of one project both love, exchange hard words. Or that developers get attacked publicly so badly that they have to hide to save themselves! I certainly do hope the coming moderation system on the dot is helping there, too.
Re: Direct article feedback - Eskil - 2008-07-13
First I just want to say that I'm just a KDE user, though interested and impressed by the work done in 3.5 and 4. The feeling I get when reading your posts is that this has become a personal thing for you. That might not be your intention, but that's what many of your posts convey to me. You do have some constructive criticism in your posts too. Maybe you were treated unfairly by A, but you also have to understand that he probably got the same questions a thousand times (exaggerated). If person number 1000 asks the same question in a (to him) not so polite and constructive way, he might snap. I know I would. Person number 1000 maybe doesn't deserve it, but there's only so much patience in a human being. I've seen a LOT of patience and helpfulness from A and I've seen him be not so polite too. So please, don't make this a vendetta, give each other some slack and move forward.
Re: Direct article feedback - T. J. Brumfield - 2008-07-14
I don't have any beef with Aaron as a person, and I empathize. I've never run a project of this size, but I have had to deal with large product coordination before. I'm upset because I disagree with concepts and philosophies regarding the future of the KDE desktop. Since I feel strongly about the KDE desktop, I'm expressing my opinions. I don't presume that anyone owes me anything, or that the desktop must be precisely how I like it. Actually, I could care less about defaults. I'm more concerned about whether or not I'll have the flexibility to configure KDE to operate how I want. Regardless, I don't want to come across like I'm disagreeing or arguing with you. It seems your intent is to diffuse a situation. I'm just trying to express that I don't have any anger or issue with Aaron, aside from misspelling his name a few times the other day. I am quite dyslexic, but I owe Aaron *Seigo* an apology for that.
Re: Good Idea - R. J. - 2008-07-14
I've yet to read you do anything but complain, even when the KDE team has to take you by the hand and explain things over and over, then you still argue with them. Perhaps one day you will write something positive.
Re: Good Idea - jos poortvliet - 2008-07-14
to be fair, he does write something positive now and then - but not too often. Yet, I'd rather call him a fair bit stubborn than a troll.
Great quote... - David Johnson - 2008-07-12
Here's a great quote from the groklaw feedback: "KDE 4.X will be stable and secure only if and when Patrick Volkerding had finally included it in Slackware!"
Re: Great quote... - slacker - 2008-07-15
Actually, Patrick Volkerding has already said that the next release of Slackware will be KDE 4.1 based. So it's not so far ahead! >:)
KDE 4.1 ROCKS - naos - 2008-07-12
It is really awsome, it's shiny, glossy, sexy. It is A LOT more stable than 4.0 which I had before. 4.0 wasn't usable because of crashes and bugs, I was pissed of by it so many times, that I decided to go for 4.1 beta or GNOME. I went for 4.1 and it's much much better in terms of quality, but there are some issues yet. I hope that final version will be rock stable.
I'd love "the way to KDE4" and then ... pause ... - Hardy - 2008-07-12
I think, that KDE4 will become a very, very good an well integrated Desktop-Environment and i can live with KDE 4.0.5 on Fedora9 because i have myself informed about the further development of KDE4. My interest came from the series of "the way to KDE4" and some blogs from Aaron, especially "falling in love again" or so ... ... but, at that time, when the first Distributions (Kubuntu, Fedora and now openSuse) came with their first new releases, there is a gap of anouncements on the dot. Sadly, at that time, there are many "new" Users who can take a look at KDE4 without knowing about the state ... (KDE4 is the new incarnation of KDE3, as in Windows, not knowing that it was really new). Whenever i will be informed about KDE, i first try the kde.org-website. It's a little bit unluky, that Danny has to take an outtime to manage his move and some very interesting news like KDE 3.5.10 are not communicated over kde.org(?) ... In my opinion, some of the blog entries would have been introduced as an article on kde.org and so it give the community the chance to follow the direction the developers are going. And as not being a blog-entry, they will be reworked and clearer and officially ... (i know being proud, solving a problem and tell it the whole world). I don't know anything about the flame wars, but i have read the blog "no more desktop icons". First, damn, what will KDE do? Second, after reading the full text: WOW, that's wonderfull so many possibilities to work with the folderview, now i can realy work with the four workspaces(?) ... I think, many of the whiners haven't read the following text ... and they haven't read the explications. And because there are more news outside kde.org, than here, i've found an intersting introducion of an german website (from June the 16.): Link: http://www.pcwelt.de/start/software_os/linux/praxis/164195/der_neue_desktop_kde_4/ <quote> Schicker, bequemer, schneller und ressourcenschonender: der KDE-Desktop in der neuen Version 4 hat das Zeug dazu, zum Desktop des Jahrzehnts zu werden. KDE 4 ist auf jeden Fall ein Hingucker. Es würde nicht verwundern, wenn dem kommerziellen Fensteranbieter aus Redmond die Knie schlotterten angesichts des soeben veröffentlichten KDE 4. </quote> <translation> Hipper, comfortabler, faster and spare resources: the KDE-Desktop in the new version 4 has the possibility to become the desktop of the decade. KDE 4 is in all cases an eye-catcher. It would not be astonished, if the commercial window-vendor out of Redmond is in a funk of the just now published KDE 4. </translation> The translation may be not correct, but i hope it will ..., and it was just an entry to a detailed view to KDE4 ... (from a windows-centric magazine). my thanks goes to all the developer, artwork-artists, translators and all the ppl i've forgotten, i think, that KDE4 will be a great DE and i will change to the KDE-PIM when 4.2 is out and it has made the full transition (now using thunderbird, because comming from windows).
I love khtml - Hardy - 2008-07-13
Oh, another thing i've forgotten ... If Plasma needs webkit, thats ok, but i like to have khtml. I will prefer the KDE-way: look at what you realy need for plasma but implement it in khtml! There was the time, as the flash-interface was broken cause Adobe supports only the Mozilla interface, and at that time i was using Firefox, but that was the only time i needed it. With Webkit, i think, the KDE looses some control of the DE (as it is an integrated part of Plasma). I would think about it (what, if webkit changes all interfaces ...) I will have a DE like KDE, because all could happen! And all is possible! At that time you depends on webkit, you will never be so FREE like now. There has to be a decision like: aRts or phonon, webkit or khtml ...
Re: I'd love "the way to KDE4" and then ... pause ... - Phobeus - 2008-07-13
If you don't need to rely on a rock stable system as a fedora 9-user you might want to look at kde-redhat (unstable) to update on kde 4.0.85 already (rc1 will come soon). It's running rock stable here and has lots of improvments so far.
Re: I'd love "the way to KDE4" and then ... pause ... - Hardy - 2008-07-19
Thank you for this advice! I think i can wait until the end of July ... and i hope Fedora makes it soon possible ... But the "Red Hat"-repository seems to be intersting, i will have a look. It's on my radar since 01/2008 but i'm not informed myself, if it's compatible ...
Annoncement has been a mistake! - Uqbar - 2008-07-13
If the Team had announced that KDE4 was on its way for testing or previewing, then every single complain whould have been meaningless. But the team announced that "The KDE Community is thrilled to announce the immediate availability of KDE 4.0." (http://kde.org/announcements/4.0/). Then there is something wrong. The announcement was a mistake as KDE4 completeness, stability and usability can be questionable. KDE4 itself cannot be a mistake as the technology preview clearly shows the quality of the design and development. Simply, what's been released as KDE4 is just a limited technology preview, while people was what you normally call "release".
Re: Annoncement has been a mistake! - R. J. - 2008-07-14
See, when KDE 4 was released, I knew, I can't remember if it was on dot or on opensuse news, that it was released for early adopters, testers, and people to port their applications over, and it was said time and time again on dot to people that it was. What was wrong, is time and time again people didn't listen, people, like one person who moans a lot on dot, argued with the KDE team, not listening. So if you didn't know this is why it was released, then why did so many others know it was? Perhaps you should not only read dot but other distro news as well, and become informed like so many others
Re: Annoncement has been a mistake! - furanku - 2008-07-14
I'ld rather say it was a foreseeable unfortunate thing to release it labeled as 4.0 and saying at the same time a developer release. In the open source world alpha and betas are developer releases, x.0 releases are not. Having set the expectations pretty high before made it almost unavoidable to create confusion and disapppointment: Here we are, half a year later and *still* discussing that release and having seen verbal escaltions and insults, frustrated developers, ... Isn't that proof enough that the idea behind that kind 4.0 release didn't work out?
Pioneering - paumayr - 2008-07-13
"If we do something which is pioneering, we will get arrows in the back. But at the end of the day, a whole lot of people will have a whole lot of fun." -Randy Pausch
Re: Pioneering - Eskil - 2008-07-13
Or... "And let it be noted that there is no more delicate matter to take in hand, nor more dangerous to conduct, nor more doubtful in its success, than to set up as the leader in the introduction of changes. For he who innovates will have for his enemies all those who are well off under the existing order of things, and only lukewarm supporters in those who might be better off under the new." Niccolò Machiavelli - 1513 I think the release of 4.0 was the right thing to do at the right time and I hope it will continue this way. I don't think the KDE team anticipated the reaction from some users, which can be avoided next time. It's not easy, but it can always be done better. More and even simpler communication is usually the trick.
KDE4 is success in progress - coward - 2008-07-13
"Releasing KDE 4.0 was a mistake" No, it wasn't. But it was released too early und the users did not read the fine print saying "KDE4 is Beta". (did you notice the slogan? I am not only coward, I am a poet too ;-))
Porting - Kais Hassan - 2008-07-14
Software porting to a newer library is usually a nightmare. Newer libraries might remove functions or even modify the behaviour of some functions which is usually tricky to work around. The difference between Qt 3 and 4 is huge, but I am sure they had very good reasons to break compatibility. Some people dont understand that it was both difficult and important for KDE to move to Qt4. Opera browser, a cutting edge software is still using Qt 3, this should give you an indication on the amount of work needed to port to Qt4.
Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Karl Günter Wünsch - 2008-07-14
I simply don't get the reliance on plasmoids to fill every niche of the desktop. Folder view here, menu there, clock there. The problem with that is: There is no decent way of managing when and what of these beasties is visible (at least I haven't found one in the numerous times I gave KDE4 svn a spin) as there is no instance that could elevate a plasmoid above everything else - because you might need to have a look at it but at the same time have the rest of the "proper" windows accessible. And here is the problem: A load of functionality previously offered by fully fledged windows (even if some were only connected with mini-icons the window opened from them were fully functional) with decoration, task bar entries and easy switching to and from has been transformed into these functionally hampered and thus mostly useless plasmoids! So it becomes a hard decision to maximise the image window in which you are editing a picture while at the same time you'd need access to some plasmoid contents. Why do so many things have to be exempt from the usual window management? Why can't I switch by pressing Alt-Tab from one window to the contents of a plasmoid (which has replaced a former functional small application) and back to my application again? They might be the newest design fad but for me they are the downfall of KDE4 and a major disapointment. I have been a fan of KDE and Qt since early days and I hope some common sense will reappear. My hopes of that happening are dwindling rapidly though...
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Stefano - 2008-07-14
Uhm, looking at the development pace, I wouldn't worry much about that, and I assume things will be addressed by the 4.2 time. But I must admit that the things pointed out by Karl are pretty true, and there is to me a 'usability' problem. The "plasmoid" layer behind the regular windows layer is not practical when you have to use/refer to both at the same time (you can switch the active one, I know, but you don't have 'handle' the content of both). And. I know that Plasma is not only what you see, but a simple and maybe dumb question rises in my mind: why can't be plasmoid live within the "regular windows" area? I mean, what real gain has - say - twitter plasmoid over a normal twitter window? This is just a question about Plasma in general. For the rest, I think that user's rants will begin to calm down with 4.1 released.
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Luca Beltrame - 2008-07-14
" as there is no instance that could elevate a plasmoid above everything else - because you might need to have a look at it but at the same time have the rest of the "proper" windows accessible." I don't know if that's enough for you, but the Plasma Dashboard (Ctrl+F12) puts all the plasmoids above the rest. I won't comment on the rest of the post, while not "trolling" is totally useless to identify problems (generic descriptions/opinions don't cut). Also, calling things "newest design fad" won't get your voice heard much, I'm afraid.
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Stefano - 2008-07-14
Beside the words used, I find the "Why do so many things have to be exempt from the usual window management?" argument quite interesting. Ctrl+F12 is a switch that allows you to manage a separate layer. I find this a bit unpractical. And, just my two cents: people has been rude, and almost everyone here knows the whole story. Now, don't we jump on the other side, criticizing every single word used. "Upset" and "Troll" are two separate adjectives (not directly to you, Luca, but just in general).
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Luca Beltrame - 2008-07-14
"Beside the words used, I find the "Why do so many things have to be exempt from the usual window management?" argument quite interesting." Currently, as I see it, it's mostly because everything is rather new. I would also like some integration between KWin and Plasma (for example, confining windows to specific activities, like KWin does for virtual desktops), but as I see it, it's just a matter of time. Like KDE 4.0 was just the beginning, 4.1 is merely a continuation of an ongoing process.
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Stefano - 2008-07-14
Yes, the "4.2 will address it" was a prefix to me. For example, I like the Vista solution, where at least some of the plasmoids can stay "almost-on-top". This may be achieved through additional panels, as long as autohide will be implemented again.
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Iuri Fiedoruk - 2008-07-14
4.1 should had fixed everything, it won't. after 4.1 developers will tell that 4.2 will solve everything, it won't. This is how things are, KDE developers decided to drop a well used structure (kicker+kdesktop) for something new that is taking more than anyone would have wished for, and that includes developers themselves. Sad, but there is nothing we can do, plasma is still on it's infancy. Now about plasmoids being on desktop, I have to agree. O do not see the point of having a program on my desktop if it is hidden 99% of the time for a program, as I always runs programs maximized. I see the point of plasmoids on panel, but one desktop... it just seems like someone used apple dashboard, yahoo or google widgets, liked tha idea and made the whole kde4 desktop based on that. Man, those are just toys! I still did not see any plasmoid that is really usefull (exept for those on panel to replace kicker). One guy is creating a kopete conect list to be keept in desktop... why if I can just open kopete windows and have it? WHY?? oh god why??? (life without drama is not fun - death in discworld). :D
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Kevin Krammer - 2008-07-14
> KDE developers decided to drop a well used structure (kicker+kdesktop) for something new Not decided to, but had to drop. Unmaintained applications get removed from KDE's main modules. I've seen several new developers come forward as new maintainers of other applications they wanted to stay in KDE, so obviously nobody even outside the KDE developer community at that time wanted to keep working on kicker or kdesktop. > I see the point of plasmoids on panel, but one desktop Congratulations! You have just discovered, all by yourself, one of the most important aspects of Plasma: container independence. You like things displayed on your panel, some others might want to have some on the desktop, somebody complete different might want some on the overlay/dashboard, there might even be people who want to always-on-top. Instead of coding stuff several times, developers can now code once and let us users choose where we want to see the GUI portions. Nice, huh?
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Iuri Fiedoruk - 2008-07-15
Yes, yes, yes. As a technology for developers, Plasma shines. For the user, not that much (YET!) :D
Re: Plasma is a rampant mistake... - Karl Günter Wünsch - 2008-07-14
It's not enough by a mile! The problem persists as this solution would hide my main application in large parts. How is anyone supposed to discover this short cut anyway? May I cite one of the main paradigmas of designing an UI: "discoverability/intuitivity". A function that is so well hidden in an UI that it needs the manual to find it is as good as not implemented... For me the plasmoids in their current state are a usability nightmare and everytime I read about yet another port of a once useful mini application to plasmoid I have to cringe about the mere thought of loosing another helper application! As to my choice of words - I describe my frustration that I can't switch desktop while these things persist but yet would love to switch to new versions of for example gwenview which does one thing right (although loosing a lot of previous available functionality) I would like to have access to. And from frustration comes the need to vent!
The only mistake - Picander - 2008-07-14
The only mistake was version numbering. People are used to see 3.99.12 when a 4 version in incomplete. This generated a lot of confusion because they thought kde was way more complete when 4.0.0 was released. The second half-mistake is that people still don't understand where plasma is going. Maybe an update to the plasma site would help a lot to understand what's the developers vision. I guess it's intended to be more than a platform for desktop toys, but at the moment this is the only thing people can see.
Re: The only mistake - Karl Günter Wünsch - 2008-07-14
"I guess it's intended to be more than a platform for desktop toys, but at the moment this is the only thing people can see." Wrong it's much worse, all I can see is that existing functionality which has it's place in normal applications is put into plasmoids on the whim of being the "cool new toy in town" and in the end diminishing the usability of the whole as there is this break in paradigma. This wall that has been erected by the design between plasmoids and normal windows has to be torn down - if you must then both ways although I would be against that as it would open another bag of fleas - so all the work put into plasmoids will have been a waste of effort...
keep up the great work - a computer science student - 2008-07-17
I want to add a positive voice here (mine). KDE4 is really a great step and especially plasma is an innovation with much potential. I don't understand some of the complaints, KDE3 is still maintained and everyone can use it until KDE4 is mature. I trust, that the kde team knows about the importance of stability on the long term. Keep up the great work, I'm sure many (maybe particulary new) users will like KDE4.
11 Myths about KDE - Mark W. Shelby - 2008-07-22
Hey, I have a crazy radical idea... Why not post your story on the front page of the KDE website instead of on Groklaw? Don't you think more people will look to the source (www.kde.org) to check out your response? When your team answers in various other publications it looks like your efforts are not unified. But then again, maybe that's what the complaints are alledging? I actually really like the 4.x series desktop. I think it is revolutionary to some degree. I like the framework. But hey, KDE's communication skills as an organization are abysmal! Put a link on the first screen seen on www.kde.org. that is clearly distinguishable to the non-development community so that people can find out more about what KDE is and is not(yet.)
KDE 4.0 is a revolution - tehsagemaster - 2008-07-24
I personally love where KDE 4.0 is going. Its like having the best of Microsoft, Apple, and Linux mixed. My opinion on bitches is to ignore them. They are the same lame ass bitches that complain when Microsoft wants to change something because they got a lot of request for it, and same goes for Apple. They are also the same assholes that bitch for McDonald's giving them hot Coffee. There are lots of good ideas out there and as developers I say to to get as many as you can in. People like to bitch because it makes them feel better, hell, even I feel better now because I'm bitching about the bitches. Seriously though, keep up the great work, someday KDE 4.X will be done and people will start to notice why its awesome, especially the computer illiterate that only knows what Windows is and found out they can get a OS that is not much more of a learning curve and is free vs $1000 for Microsucks Winblowz and Office Ultimate suck. I am not currently using KDE 4.X because I'm waiting for it to get more stable, but I'm keeping watch on the news and in a Virtual box. At the moment if you need a few ideas, I am using Linux Mint 5 and really like it. On of my biggest pet peeves I'm still waiting to see a cure for in nearly all Linux is Network Transparency and being able to play media without needing them to copy first(Gnome is fine on that). This is a good feature of Microsoft that is making it difficult for me to get rid of them completely. Basically, I can mount/map a share and it works the same a folder and all apps can use it equally. I can also have that share/map start automatically with Windows. Great feature to have for Songbird and any related program, and to have that program use your server as its working location. Fuse sorta helps, but I would like to see something that is natural to KDE/Gnome and any desktop linux. Supposedly GIO/GVFS is suppose to help cure this problem, don't know what the plans are for KDE. Again, keep up the great work and I hope my two cents meant something.
Re: KDE 4.0 is a revolution - Stefan Majewsky - 2008-07-25
There is the kio-fuse project which allows you to add arbitrary KIO locations (i.e. http://, fish://, imap://, and so on) to your file systems. I do not know whether KIO itself supports streaming, but from what I know about IO devices in Qt, I think it should be possible.
Thank you for the article - Cobb - 2008-07-24
THANK YOU! It is about tie someone made these points. Question, does Sebastian write often from Groklaw? I would not have expected a KDE "clarification" article to be on Groklaw. Cobb