Last Saturday saw the first Latin America Free Software Install Fest held simultaneously in 74 cities and 12 countries. KDE was present at the Santiago location for installation assistance and a talk by Maurucio Bahamonde on KDE 3.4. We offered Kubuntu Live CDs to try out the desktop and the team offered help to install.
The event took place in the artistic "El sindicato" Culture Centre, which organiser CDSL had got use of. Visitor numbers were higher than expected.
amaroK and KDevelop were the programs that caused most of the "woo!" sounds, and the whole desktop was very highly rated by the people who tested it on our demo machine.
KDE was represented by KDE Chile members Matias Fernandez (Developer of KoolDock, Author of KGo! and KGoogleApplet), Mauricio Bahamonde (Author of Kopete text to speech plugin), Matias Valdenegro, Duncan Mac-Vicar (Kopete developer and official KDE representative in Chile) and Sebastian Sariego.
Enjoy the pictures of the event:
- Duncan Mac-Vicar and Mauricio Bahamonde
- KDE Chile team showing a KDE 3.4 desktop enabled PC (really it was Duncan's laptop hidden under the desk, a 17" monitor and a usb keyboard/mouse).
- Crowd, install fest and talks in parallel.
- More people.
- Mauricio's talk about KDE 3.4 and the KDE project.
- Matias doing the job of pressing the space key when Mauricio raised his eyebrow to mean 'next slide please'.
- KDE Chile logo. (designed by Sebastian Sariego, printed by Mauricio Bahamonde).
- Logo of organisers Free Software Promotion Centre.
- Mauricio installing Kubuntu for a user.
- kde.cl team: Matias Valdenegro, Mauricio Bahamonde, Duncan Mac-Vicar and Matias Fernandez. Missing: Sebastian Sariego.
- Sharing a beer with gnome.cl people.
Kubuntu is wonderful but it is no real supported Ubuntu branch but a unsupported fork to please those who dislike the Gnome policy. Kubuntu has to organise itself independendly and get companies involved. I think it would be nice to see a kind of merger of the Knoppix and the Kubuntu effort.
> Kubuntu is wonderful but it is no real supported Ubuntu branch but a unsupported fork
You're talking shit. Of course there is no branch and no fork because Ubuntu and Kubuntu use the very same repository. And Ubuntu's KDE packages are supported, otherwise they wouldn't be in the Hoary 'main' repository.
But ubuntu defaults to Gnome as SuSe defaults to KDE. Only few people will download kubuntu that is a second choice option, a kind of "special build" hidden on the website.
> But ubuntu defaults to Gnome as SuSe defaults to KDE.
And Kubuntu media default to KDE. The point is that you now have the choice, both pre- and post-install and don't have to use as previous the sole desktop.
> Only few people will download kubuntu
You don't have to download "Kubuntu", installing the kubuntu-desktop package will do the same.
> a kind of "special build" hidden on the website.
Not hidden on kubuntu.org, just help to spread the word of choice to Ubuntu users.
I did install Ubuntu on my system and grew fond of the KDE enviroment by live CD's of other options. I looked to installing the KDE enviroment on Ubuntu. I opened synaptic and chose kubuntu-desktop among other various KDE packages. After installation, I saw no change, except in the way my system logs off - it doesn't allow me to chose to shutdown from there, and the logon screen.
I tried to figure out why the KDE did not install correctly, but am downloading the Kubuntu install CD right now. I heard Kubuntu tends to work better with wireless devices and prefer the feel. I also heard the a few tweaks are necessary due to differences in the coding.
Hoping for a good turn out.
Knoppix is a live cd distro.
To be more correct, Kubuntu also has a live cd.
For Kubuntu there are both Live CD and Install CD. See kubuntu.org.
Kubuntu is very much an "official" ubuntu project:
* http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2005 -January/019774.html
Matt Zimmerman :
"This is an official Ubuntu project aimed to provide an excellent
KDE-oriented distribution based on Ubuntu."
* There are Canonical employees who have been hired to work on Kubuntu,
* KDE is not in universe but in main (which means it's officially supported)
* and as far as I know Mark Shuttleworth encouraged work on Kubuntu and seems to be quite happy with the current result (especially with Kubuntu's attractive konqi models).
* You need Kubuntu to get http://www.ubuntu.com rendered standards compliant correctly (including shadows). ;-)
So basically you are just spreading FUD and misinformation.
I really don't mind the existance of Kubuntu, but I don't think that's how the future should be. Distros like Debian, Gentoo, Suse, Fedora, Mandrake and those classic general purpose distributions are free to support every GUI. But ubuntu is nice because it focuses on a specific branch, makes choices for you.
I don't mind the fact that they've got KDE packages, that's okay, but in my opinion it's going in the wrong direction, create a new kde oriented distribution instead that focuses on kde tools, and has more reliance on what is integrated into kde to create a lighter experience.
The freedom of choice doesn't mean that every distribution should have everything...!
My default desktop is kde, so i'm not writing this because of a gnome preference...
> But ubuntu is nice because it focuses on a specific branch, makes choices for you.
Kubuntu also makes (application) choices for you.
Great to see pictures of Salvador Allende and Che Guevara on the wall next to the Software Libre poster. Progressive politics is alive and well in Chile, unlike here in the UK, where we had some of the most depressing right wing populist election campaigning recently :(
Actually the fact that we noticed the posters during the event worried us. Those are no "progressive" politics. Socialists evoluted and right now are just like european social-democrats. I am not a socialist but the current goverment is ok and has 78% popularity. Allende and Guevera is marxist socialism & communism. They represent no more of 2% or 3% of the population, have no congress representation, still use the violence to express themselfes, and the worst thing, they never were able to be consistent here.
Attacking Pinochet and defending Fidel Castro, you could recognize that they are not democrats. For me, it was funny that after they treated every right-side person as facist or nazi (without arguments) their own leader Salvador Allende is suspected to be nazi, from a research done using his own doctoral thesis and his writings when he was Health minister before being president, where he affirmed jews and arabians were race-predetermined to have more posibilities to be delinquents and promoted esterilization of "alienated-people".
During the event, an administrative guy from the cultural centre (it was a communist centre, no a open one) expulsed a friend of mine who came to the installfest, just because he was drinking coca-cola, and coca-cola == bush for those stupids. Even if he was using nike shoes and the electricity of the centre come from spain investiments.
Even more, communists abuse the free software concept because it matches their economical ideas, so they try to take on free software idea. The sad part is that they forget it is a digital world and not anatom-based one, so free software plays better with free-economies and open markets.
So che guevara and Allende is not welcome here. The fisrt one being a face just to put in t-shirts for coolnes for european kids, the second one being who destroyed our country economy and produced a division that still remains.
People who helped Allende are now renewed and imitate social-democrat goverments with a liberal market economy. I am not from their side, but I like the way they are doing things, because is the same way Chile would do things. Except communist, who would try to destroy democracy, economy, family, church, and impose stuff.
So please, people from Europe, you are victims of propaganda. If you want to see what happens here. Come here. I am not happy of the political side of the event because free software should always be promoted in a neutral manner, using its own advantages.
"Socialists evoluted and right now are just like european social-democrats."
You are lucky; our socialists have evolved into 'neoliberals' such as Tony Blair, they are not european social-democrats. He is a more of a fan of Margaret Thatcher, than Willie Brandt.
"Attacking Pinochet and defending Fidel Castro, you could recognize that they are not democrats."
I don't pretend to know as much about Chilean politics as yourself, but very few people in Europe would regard Fidel Castro as more of a tyrant than Pinochet. I've never heard these views about Allende being a Nazi. As he was shot by Pinochet's forces, he wasn't allowed to let his arguments speak for themselves, whether or not you thought they were right or wrong.
"so free software plays better with free-economies and open markets."
Yes, if a free market is one where large companies can't shut down smaller companies by using software patents, or use unfair means such as accountancy fiddles and so on.
"I am not happy of the political side of the event because free software should always be promoted in a neutral manner, using its own advantages."
This is the message of 'Open Source', not Software Libre. I wouldn't say that Richard Stallman is a man of the left or the right, but he most certainly does have a strong political viewpoint. One of the reasons I personally write Free Software is because I want to help change the World for the better, not advance some short term business advantage. Open Source attempts to eviscerate the Free Software movement, by removing the Freedom aspect in order to make it more business friendly. All those right wing ego-maniacs such a Eric Raymond have done is screw things up by encouraging a proliferation of incompatible 'Open Source' licenses.
>I don't pretend to know as much about Chilean politics as yourself, but
> very few people in Europe would regard Fidel Castro as more of a tyrant
>than Pinochet. I've never heard these views about Allende being a Nazi.
>As he was shot by Pinochet's forces, he wasn't allowed to let his arguments >speak for themselves, whether or not you thought they were right or wrong.
Just to remark the ignorance of foreign people about our politics, thanks to international propaganda. Allende wasn't shot, he commited suicide, using a gun that was a gift from Fidel, and that is certified by his own personal doctor. There weren't pinochet forces, it was the chilean army itself as requested by the country. Pinochet in other countries is the evil itself. I am not saying he could be good or bad. It had both good and bad things, but the evil view is just international propaganda. Probably, the only picture you have seen out of chile of him, is one where he has evil face and dark glasses. Propaganda.
The views about Allende being a nazi aren't views, but ideas in his own writings.
Its sad every time the word Chile appears in international topics, the politcs topic is raised, and with total ignorance.
I kind of forgive US people about ignorance of our politics because they often don't even know where Chile is due to their education model. But europeans should understand the propaganda and information factor, and understand Mexico and Latin America *are* conservative countries, and not use the same optic-glass to analyze our politics. Also, I feel frustrated that those ideologies whch call themselfes tolerants, try to *evil*ize whatever is different from their point of view. For me communism is wrong. But for other people market, money, business, church, is just evil. Even an innocent nerd drinking coca-cola.
"Allende wasn't shot, he commited suicide, using a gun that was a gift from Fidel, and that is certified by his own personal doctor."
Interesting, you might be right:
I'm still not convinced that Pinochet was a very nice person.
> I'm still not convinced that Pinochet was a very nice person.
Don't convince yourself. it is not a black/white topic, but a very grey one. Anyway, I suggest moving the topic to other place ;-)
A Brazilian opinion here:
Yeah, Pinochet was a "bad guy", agreed. No good done to the chilean economy will ever justify the political killings done by the military regime in Chile.
But that does not make Allende a good guy. Allende didn't have the majority of the votes when elected, and tried to do some radical stuff, supported by Fidel, the dictator. So read a bit about Allende and Pinochet from conservative *and* leftist sources, and try to make up your mind.
I did that. And my personal (and provisional) veredict is that Allende is also responsible for the dictatorship in Chile: his policies in the time leading to the coup were dividing the society in Chile, and creating the backdrop for Pinochet. And Fidel, trying to export his revolution, was very important in the division process, as the risk of a non democratic socialist / communist coup like in Cuba was also there.
".. as the risk of a non democratic socialist / communist coup like in Cuba was also there."
When Fidel and his fellow Cuban revolutionaries threw out the dictator Batista in 1959 they weren't Marxists. It was certainly very democratic - everyone hated Batista, that isn't in question. Batista was just like General Franco in Spain, an arsehole. And they've just removed the last Franco statue from a public place, history has hated Franco and his Fascists - good riddance. In 1953 Fidel wrote 'History Will Absolve Me' while in jail after the assault on the Moncada barracks. In my opinion it will.
However, because of the American blockade the Cuban revolutionaries were forced to turn to Marxism in order to get support from Russia. They certainly didn't start off as Marxists. Fidel has probably long outstayed his welcome, but in my opinion that doesn't take away from what he achieved in the 1950's.
But when he was in Chile with Allende, he was already a dictator. We was killing dissidents (including some who were with him in Sierra Maestra) who didn't agree, trying to export the revolution, and with all the local (cuban) repression mechanisms in place (secret police, etc...).
Fidel is just another ruthless dictator. Who knows who Allende was going to be. I don't. But Fidel presence certainly wasn't helping to establish peace in the chilean society. Fidel stayed for months.
Not that I agree with Pinochet, far from it. As I said, nothing justify the political killings he endorsed. Just as nothing justify the political killings Fidel endorsed (and endorses untill today).
> They certainly didn't start off as Marxists.
That's actually not correct -- Fidel didn't start off as a Marxist, but the other two central figures of the Cuban revolution, Che and Raul, were very much Marxists prior to the overthrow of the Batista regime.
Money, bussiness and church are not evil. Torture is evil. Murdering people because of a different politic view is evil. Where I live there are plenty of chilean people who had to leave the country when Pinochet got to power, and they can still show you the marks of torture, so I dont need any "propaganda" to make me believe that the Pinochet regime was indeed evil.
Nobody denies that. What I am trying to say is there is no good and bad side here. Communists killed people (specially policemen) and were armed. It was a war. There was even a senator killed by communists *in democracy* after Pinochet left power. Nobody denies Pinochet regime horrible crimes too. My worries is that all people involved in tortures and executions is in the jail (hundred of militars) but they judge process never end. While involved communists are free. The murdereds who killed the senator Guzman in democracy even escaped the high security jail *in helicopter* and where received as "political persecuted" -persecuted in democracy?- by Belgium and other European countries (double standard as they wanted pinochet to be extradited to judge him).
I am not trying to denie crimes or convince yourself of a political view, but to show you both sides did horrible mistakes, but the propaganda resulted in this double standard.
Duncan, tu opinión, matizada y todo, seguramente, gracias las "revelaciones" de los últimos años acerca del régimen de Pinochet, no deja de ser la de la derecha tradicional chilena, defensora de Pinochet hasta la impostura. Por cierto con más porcentaje que los comunistas que tanto hablas, pero totalmente impresentable al tratar de defenderlo. El resto es paja.
Si me especificas con que frase estoy defendiendo algún régimen. En mis posts anteriores justamente recalqué mi postura de no justificar absolutamente ninguna de las posturas de las cuales comenté, sino dando mi punto de vista crítico a ellas. Hay gente que cree que por no ser partidario de alguna ideología entonces apoyas completamente otra. Bueno, respecto a tu comprensión de lectura no puedo hacer nada, pero no pongas palabras en mi boca.
" "so free software plays better with free-economies and open markets."
Yes, if a free market is one where large companies can't shut down smaller companies by using software patents, or use unfair means such as accountancy fiddles and so on."
Nevertheless, only in a democracy we can demonstrate w/o have to worry for our lives. It's true that big companies are getting aristocratic tendencies. We can only hope the masses see through this before it can only be undone by revolution, which could lead to some kind of dictature.
In the netherlands it used to be too expensive being rich, but nowadays that's not the case anymore. Leaders of big companies are getting lots of bonuses even if they fired lots of their employees.
IMO the major problem with the free market as we know it, is that companies can grow to big, have too much power. In the past those companies would have been split up, but we're in a world market now. Bill G. can get away with it because after all, it's good for the USA itself. So we need global awareness of this, eg. via OSS, and some UN of business afairs and deregulations.
"Nevertheless, only in a democracy we can demonstrate w/o have
to worry for our lives."
Yes, only in great democracies like Italy and
Truly, the freedom to protest is not the right to safety, nor
is it the right to choose how you will be governed. If you
oppose the freedoms of the rich in any 'democratic' country
your own freedoms are granted only at the discretion of the
Internationally, it is the 'democracies', not dictatorships, which
deliver death and destruction to foreigners. Dictators don't go
attacking their neigbours without the green
light from the big 'democratic' leaders.
"So we need global awareness of this, eg. ... some UN of business
afairs and deregulations."
You mean the WTO? (Or do you mean the UN itself?)
Centralising the corporate takeover of the global economy in the WTO
made too attractive a target for democratic protest ... so these
things are now handled government-to-government in bilateral
agreements. Too many meetings to coordinate mass rallies.
No great gatherings of world leaders to make headlines.
"shot dead as he attacked police in their car"
"who chose to protest violently"
Yeah, that's what I call exercizing one's democratic rights.
Latin American countries are moving to Free Software because is cheap, they don't code open sourse software and they won't buy Qt licenses, to expensive.
That's why GNOME is a hit in Brazil, no licenses issues with close sourse applications.
I should not feed the troll, but I can't help myself:
If you do not have any facts or something constructive to say, get lost. I am tired of the clueless license discussions. Gnome is very popular in Mexico, but in the rest of Latin America, the picture is mixed. Conectiva (in Brazil) is mainly a KDE distro, and there are many KDE developers in Brazil.
Qt is free as in GPL. Deal with it. If you want closed source apps, buy Qt, it is worth it. If you want free apps, use Qt, it is free. And with Qt/KDE 4, KDE apps will be available for Windows, easing the transition from Windows to Linux, giving KDE apps the real edge. kdelibs will be available and well tested with Qt in all platforms, giving more depth to Qt. Just watch what the Kexi guys are doing, it will be soon true for all KDE apps.
It is not that simple. The goverment sponsored move is due to the need for independence, and to promote local business. A local minibusiness doing Linux support for goverment is money that stay in the country.
The goverment don't need to buy Qt licenses if they develop everything under the GPL. Even companies can develop internal software under the GPL. Only companies distributing software and selling it without source and GPL terms, need to buy per/seat developer licenses.
Qt licenses are expensive only for hobby programmers, but not for real projects. I imagine you already read the quick cost analysis George Staikos did (http://www.staikos.net/~staikos/whyqt/).
No, Latin American goverments do not write that much GPL applications(specially Venezuela), they don't like the idea of share they code for security reasons.
Then they surely prefer closed-source Microsoft Windows for security reasons? *SCNR
And no, In Latina America comercial software companies are to small to buy Qt licenses, and there's no point of using GPL applications if they cannot sell them.
Do you consideer US$ 1500 per developer expensive for any project? (it can be used for as many projects as you want). Even with 1 developer (you), a price of US$ 100 per copy, whith 20 copies you win US$ 500. If you can't sell 20 copies of your software, As George said, you can't code for a living, or, take a look at your business plan.
1500*5 developers = 7,500 dls.
Programing with .Net = 0.0
Programing with GTK = 0.0
Qt is an option, an expensive one.
No, you have to include the cost of opportunity == time saved of using Qt, which can be used for another contract work, Using Qt allows to save months compared with GTK. Either you add that cost to the GTK option as a "suck cost", or substract it to the Qt option as an advantage.
For .NET the difference is less than with GTK, but this option is discarded for development over Linux. Also you did not include the license of the form designer and build tools. (Only the compiler is available for free). You also could use SharpDevelop. But still Qt gives you portability, which should be included as a long term cost, or you can also include the cost as the cost to update Windows in the future.
As you see, I will not choose you to evaluate a development project cost ;-)
It remembers me the Mexico goverment guys who were doing a 2 year development project in C/GTK/PostgreSQL. You know the result. It is more cheap for them doing it from scratch in Qt/QtSQL/Postgres than trying to finish it and fix all the memory leaks. But they can't tell that to their boss. Ian Geiser remembers the situation very well.
>>> Using Qt allows to save months compared with GTK.
All dependes of the developer skills, anyway, you are more productive with .NET than any Qt tool.
>>> Also you did not include the license of the form designer and build tools.
I uses I SharpDevelop to write .NET/Mono applications, it is Free and rocks.
Anyway Visual Studio is a lot more cheaper than a Qt Licenses.
>>It remembers me the Mexico goverment guys who were doing a 2 year development >>project in C/GTK/PostgreSQL. You know the result. It is more cheap for them >>doing it from scratch in Qt/QtSQL/Postgres than trying to finish it and fix >>all the memory leaks. But they can't tell that to their boss. Ian Geiser >>remembers the situation very well.
Maybe theye weren't the right develepers for the project, they did choose C, but now there are python bindinds for GTK, there's also GTK#, C is not a limitation anymore.
>I uses I SharpDevelop to write .NET/Mono applications, it is Free and rocks.
Aha, the GNOME troll shows its bias.
Mono is illegal copy of .NET! You will pay very heavy price for this to Microsoft lawsuit!
>>Mono is illegal copy of .NET! You will pay very heavy price for this to Microsoft lawsuit!
Is not true, please seek for information before make your astatements, there is a nice mono in fag in www.go-mono.org
And if that's the case Qt and KDE are violating Microsoft patentes too, since Microsoft has even patent the grouped windows KDE, mouse click, context windows buttons etc, something that Qt/KDE uses too in that case it is risky to use it too.
It is true. Do not believe Miguel. Miguel lie before and Miguel lie now. Only lies in that fag on go-mono.org. Only believe if you have agreement with Microsoft. KDE/Qt are safe there are no valid patent against!
.NET is very big trouble as small developer you should stay away from Mono. ;-)
let's assume everything you said about licensing concerns is true (i have my doubts, but let's just assume that anyways)... what is the connection between writing a Gtk+ app and not using KDE? or... conversely, what's the issue with writing a Qt/KDE app and not using GNOME?
it seems people do it ALL the time and that with every single passing year it works better and better.
the whole "licensing ergo desktop" domino theory stinks as hopeful thinking, probably on the part of whomever started this silly meme a few years ago.
Using KDE to run GTK based applications? no use, KDE is to complicated for the masses, they better can use GNOME with they GTK applications to have the advantage of easy to use.
*deep breath so as not to flame you to a cinder*
do you know who you, as a GNOME fan, benefit the most by slamming KDE? everybody except for GNOME and KDE! Microsoft, Apple and everyone else looking to put a desktop environment into the marketplace thanks you and your inability to recognize your friends from your enemies. congratulations.
moreover, if KDE is too complicated for the masses, why have professional usability studies between Windows XP and KDE 3.3 shown otherwise? and why do more of the "masses" you speak of use KDE than GNOME? the answer is that KDE, despite your protestations, is not too complicated for the masses. i'll be the first to stand here and say that it can be better; so can GNOME, so can Windows, so can MacOS X. they each have strengths and weaknesses which enable and hinder their use by "the masses".
but you and the rest of the destructive anti-fans in the broad ranging open source community need to get your priorities straight and your facts checked. every day i struggle against the unnecessary and inexcusable damage people like you create for the open source desktop when it comes to public perception. even if you are simply trolling for fun, it has real (negative) consequences for all of us here. bah, humbug to that! >:-(
Im as much GNOME fan as you are a KDE fan.
About the easy to use, well, we are talking about people who don't know even how to use Windows well, KDE is harder to use than Windows (I don't care what you say but is true), not having HIG guide lines it is costing a lot to KDE, but tha's not the main problem, the main problem is the Qt license cost.
Im just saying what I think, KDE has no chance in Latin America.
Wow, you're really taking a beating. Everyone is proving you wrong today. Good day for KDE advocacy...
Are you talking about that unfinished not tested with no background studies HIG?
Are you serious?
"many of our user interfaces are a mess. they are featureful and interesting, but many times lack the quality of "clarity"".
Those are the words of Aaron Seigo a KDE developer, if can admit it, why can't you?
Oh you mean the background studies that prove you should fuck around the button order and use a spatial file browser? Please, are you serious? Take a user poll sometime and find out how many people hate the GNOME HIG. The GNOME HIG was more dictated by corporations looking for a profit than anyone concerned with polling users.
The KDE HIG is by the people for the people and is supported by the SUPERIOR KDE framework. GNOME HIG is hit and miss (but mostly miss), KDE HIG is right on target.
GNOME development is also a mess. This is why Miguel is wasting all his time on cloning .NET.
Miguel has admitted that GNOME development sucks. Why can't you?